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February 22, 2011

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Vegan lady

All those nations who ban ritual slaughter in the name of so-called "humane slaughter," would be well advised to ban all slaughter period. There is no such thing as humane slaughter as slaughter is brutal and inhumane. It's not like euthanasia. No animal wants to die and even before stunning, they can smell what's going to happen.

yidandahalf

Well written post, catcher50. It's refreshing for a change.
As for larry sanders and the reason I continued a "conversation" with him; he is a Rubash-in troll. Give them enough rope and they reveal themselves eventually. The curious thing is the level of obsession they have for this blog and the ka$h-r-u$ stories. They can't keep away. At first they seem to be the usual assholes but as the threads go on, it becomes apparent they are actually Rubash-ins.

catcher50

@Yid&1/2...no, I was not proposing a conspiracy. In fact, it is my fervent belief that virtually all conspiracies disappear about the time for mid-terms come up in the sophomore year.

On the other hand, I also believe that parallel, often competing, organizations (i.e. see Major League Baseball teams) will act in what they see as their own interest and, since the goals may well be, essentially, the same, it will seem as though they are involved in a conspiracy.

larry sanders

Ay, yidandahalf, you are a heretic and most likely a questionable Jew. If you are a jew.

Dick

larry sanders

Who are Getzel and Heshy? What is a blowjob? I'm 8 years old motherfucker.

yidandahalf

sanders, You might be able to come up with more intelligent posts if you didn't spend all your time giving blow jobs to Getzel and Heshy.

larry sanders

Yidandahalf, shut up with your nonsensical responses. You're embarrassing yourself. By the way, if you like anal, you shouldn't be part of this thread.

larry sanders

If that's the case, Dr. Dave, than I was mistook. You're a good man.

yidandahalf

The fressers and Ka$h-R-u$ supporters will grasp at any straw to justify what they want and do. They fool no-one but themselves.

Barry

You cannot compare hunting wild animals to slaughter of cattle.

Wild animals are born without the intervention of man. They are doomed to a miserable death by cold, hunger, disease or attack by prey. A hunter who shoots a wild animal can argue that notwithstanding that shooting is a cruel fate, it is no worse than the fate that awaits this wild animal.

Farmed animals are only born in massive numbers because of the intervenion of man. Accordingly any suffering they incur is the responsibility of man as that suffering could have been avoided by not mass breeding that animal in the first place. Mass breeding of cattle is 'unnatural' in that it requires human intervention and therefor man is obliged to minimize the suffering that arises from having bred so many animals. This contrasts with the 'natural' breeding of wild animals where man plays no part in creating the suffering these animals are doomed to.

yidandahalf

A conspiracy theorist could not have spun something as good. It's clear it was entirely a political strategy. Thank you, Catcher50.

Catcher50

Just for laughs, let's see if I can add something, here:

1. Many of the ultra lefties in Holland, who seem to care desperately about the fashionable position of the moment, pushed this bill to save animals from any pain (and, yes the parallel to hunting has validity because they would ban that, if they thought they could get it passed), and not care about people's feelings.

2. The fact that it would act against Jews, and by extension against Israel (hey, these are the leaps in logic that some make, don't blame me) was a side benefit, in their eyes.

3. That the ban would also create problems with some Halal, was not even on their radar.

4. The rightists jumped on the boat, because anything anti-Islamic is a good thing, in their eyes (maybe if they can't get Halal meat, they will go back to wherever they came from is the logical leap that the rightists make)so, let's just jump on the band-wagon.

5. You end up with two oppositional groups of short-sighted "believers" cooperating against their normal inclinations and damn the collateral damage, full speed ahead.

Shmarya

It's got nothing to do with animals and everything to do with Jews. Give it up - Rubashkin has nothing to do with this. It's called old fashioned anti-semitism.

Posted by: nanaloshen | February 23, 2011 at 01:30 PM

Please.

What the facts show is that, if anything, it is anti-Islamic.

nanaloshen

It's got nothing to do with animals and everything to do with Jews. Give it up - Rubashkin has nothing to do with this. It's called old fashioned anti-semitism.

Dr. Dave

larry sanders

i was writing out of true concern.

ah-pee-chorus

Lovely Dutch people. Buggery is OK. Sodomy is OK. But the dietary practices of the Jewish religion are treif. I say the two-faced Hollanders are no better than Nazis.

Posted by: A E ANDERSON | Christchurch, New Zealand |


your comparison of sexual practices between consenting adults and the infliction of unneeded pain to animals is foolish. that a practice is supposedly required by jewish fundies is not a sufficient reason to permit it. countries also have an obligation to prevent members of a religious sect from stoning a woman who was raped, or from sacrificing their children, or performing genital mutilation.these protections would only be considered an attack on those people wishing to commit these heinous acts by someone with no moral compass.
and while i hAte all comparisons to nazis, surely your defense of a practice causing unnecessary pain to living beings is far closer to the nazi side of the spectrum than those trying to prevent such.

yidandahalf

I have to agree with AEA's position (no pun intended) on buggery. It's obvious larry sanders is a result of it. No doubt this is the reason for his anal fixation.

larry sanders

Dr. Dave. Enough.

larry sanders

Hunters do not intentionally gravely injure animals. Hunters,even if trophy hunting want a clean kill. It is pointless to carry on this line of reasoning; it is nonsensical

yidandahalf = dipshit

Dr. Dave

A.E.A.

Glad to see you are writing. How are you doing? How are things in the aftermath of the quake?

A E ANDERSON | Christchurch, New Zealand

Lovely Dutch people. Buggery is OK. Sodomy is OK. But the dietary practices of the Jewish religion are treif. I say the two-faced Hollanders are no better than Nazis.

Shmarya

Posted by: Jayman | February 22, 2011 at 07:16 PM

Your facts are wrong and so is your logic.

Jayman

I've seen shechita before. The animal ay be suffering a little, I'm not sure, but it stops moving relatively quickly and from what I could tell it what dead. I think a parallel can be made to an animal that is shot, even through the heart.

What happened at Rubashkin is worst case scenario shechita and I doubt they are doing that in the Netherlands as that entire process of turning the animal upside down by a machine is not widely practiced from what I've heard. So even if sometimes the shechita goes wrong, the same can be said of hunting. That is the logic behind my whole point

Loshon Hora

Shmaryahooo!
Are you a vegan, or do you eat meattoo, if so are you makpid on Kosher meat?

Shmarya

Look, you don't seem to understand what I write or what Yid and 1/2 writes and you completely distort the facts.

But I'll try one more thing.

If a farmer takes a hatchet and hacks the rump of his cow because he's upset with the animal and wants it to die a slow painful death, he has violated the law in most countries.

In the same way, if a hunter would intentionally wound an animal in a way that would cause it to die a slow painful death, that is against the law in most countries.

Farmers generally slaughter cows by shooting them in the head with a rifle, which is equivalent to stunning.

Large game hunters shoot to kill, and generally try for a shot through the heart or, in some cases, the head. They immediately finish off any animal that didn't die from the first shot.

All of this is far more humane than what Rubashkin was doing in 2004.

Jayman

I guess I dont understand. I'm sorry my puny intellect cannot match one as great as yours

Shmarya

Posted by: Jayman | February 22, 2011 at 06:29 PM

Again, for the third time (or is it the fourth time already?) re-read my comments above.

Until you show that you understand them, I will not continue to answer you. I don't have discussions with brick walls.

Jayman

Yid, if that is truly the case, I don't see how that's any different that slitting an animals throat in terms of the animal dying and feeling pain. It seems to me that most humans that are shot dont die immediately so I'm not sure why animals would be any different. Although I wonder how anyone can know for sure that they "don't feel anything at all"

SHmarya, perhaps I don't understand your points. THe way I see it is there are almost a million moslems while there are only 25,000 jews in the netherlands, and I'm sure many do not keep kosher. So when comparing kosher slaughter to hunting, we are dealing with a small number of animals in both cases. So I don't see why they would ban shechita and allow hunting

Shmarya

Let me clarify Shmarya. I am speaking about the number of animals ritually slaughtered for kosher vs. the number of animals hunted a year. ANd what I am saying is if they are going to go after the minority of kosher animals being slaughtered, then why dont they go after the hunted ones as well.

Again, re-read my comments and think about them.

And process this: more animals are slaughtered for kosher and halal slaughter each week by far than are killed by hunters.

But you completely ignore my points, which leads me to believe you do not understand them.

yidandahalf

Jayman, you are wrong. I live amongst hunters. I do not care for it myself, but the fact is, the great majority of animals shot, die immediately. This method is done not only because it is humane but to locate the animal easily after it is shot. The animals who bleed out from an arrow do not even know they were hit and don't feel anything at all.
Apikoros knows alot about this; perhaps he will weigh in.

Jayman

Let me clarify Shmarya. I am speaking about the number of animals ritually slaughtered for kosher vs. the number of animals hunted a year. ANd what I am saying is if they are going to go after the minority of kosher animals being slaughtered, then why dont they go after the hunted ones as well.

Yid - just because hunters want a clean kill doesn't mean that happens. THe animals can suffer significantly and many if not most times do when being shot, no matter where the bullet hits. That is why I compare it to kosher slaughter.

yidandahalf

Hunters do not intentionally gravely injure animals. Hunters,even if trophy hunting want a clean kill. It is pointless to carry on this line of reasoning; it is nonsensical.

Shmarya

And Shmarya, the point is, there is no criminal law in Holland against shooting and gravely injuring animals by individual hunters. This could mean an extreme amount of pain for these animals. Yet no one seems to do anything about it.

Furthermore, even if it is 1 animal shot for every 100 slaughtered, it still is hypocritical. Its like making a law that you can't assault 100 people at once, but if you assault one at a time spread out over a few days then it is okay. Or it forbidden to harm 100 puppies in a day, but if you gravely torture one at a time thats legal.

Posted by: Jayman | February 22, 2011 at 05:02 PM

Go back and read what I wrote – several times, if necessary.

And process the numbers. It isn't 1 to 100. It is 1 to tens of thousands.

Once you do that, and once you demonstrate that you understand what I wrote, I may choose to further engage you.

Jayman

Yidandahalf, that was more of a what if statement than a declaration of a fact.

And Shmarya, the point is, there is no criminal law in Holland against shooting and gravely injuring animals by individual hunters. This could mean an extreme amount of pain for these animals. Yet no one seems to do anything about it.

Furthermore, even if it is 1 animal shot for every 100 slaughtered, it still is hypocritical. Its like making a law that you can't assault 100 people at once, but if you assault one at a time spread out over a few days then it is okay. Or it forbidden to harm 100 puppies in a day, but if you gravely torture one at a time thats legal.

yidandahalf

Jayman, The number of animals shot exceeds the number of animals slaughtered? Whence come your statistics?

Jeff

Shmarya, how do you feel about the proposed legislation?

Shmarya

Well wouldn't that be a double standard? Commercially you can't do shechita, but if you want to shoot and injure an animal then thats fine, even if the number of animals shot exceeds the number slaughtered? If the concern is for animals it should apply across the board or not at all.

Posted by: Jayman | February 22, 2011 at 02:30 PM

No.

Countries normally regulate commercial food production, which gives them a base to work from in regulating humane slaughter.

But there is no infrastructure or reasonable way to regulate individual behavior outside the commercial setting.

That is dealt with by criminal laws that forbid gratuitous cruelty and neglect.

The point is, for every animal a hunter kills or a farmer slaughters in his yard, there are literally hundreds of thousands slaughtered commercially.

And that is what governments rightly focus on.

Jayman

Well wouldn't that be a double standard? Commercially you can't do shechita, but if you want to shoot and injure an animal then thats fine, even if the number of animals shot exceeds the number slaughtered? If the concern is for animals it should apply across the board or not at all.

jancsipista

let me say that similar situation exists with brit milah inflicting pain unnsecessarily on the child when it could of been performed with anesthetics.

Shmarya

This is so hypocritical. Holland allows hunting with guns which is much more inhumane than shechita.

The bill regulates COMMERCIAL slaughter.

What a farmer does to slaughter his own cow or a hunter to get his own meat, is not regulated.

The same thing is true in the US.

ah-pee-chorus

Loshon Hora - if you have no answer just say so. i didnt ask you to do anything but defend your comments. answering my 2 questions would help people who agree with you understand these things and give them chizzuk.

Jayman

This is so hypocritical. Holland allows hunting with guns which is much more inhumane than shechita. The following animals are hunted there;
hare
mallard
pheasant
pigeon
rabbit
Its all on the website

http://southholland.angloinfo.com/countries/holland/hunting.asp

David

It is impossible to think that the Chillul Hashem that was Agriprocessors and the associated videos had no influence on this. Well done Rubashkin and your criminal family and associates!

Loshon Hora

Am I on your payroll. I like you blog as I feel I owe you nothing.
Rebeinu Yona says Da Ma shetoshiv le apikoires is a gentile one, a Jewish one doesn't desrve an answer.

ah-pee-chorus

oops...12:52pm

ah-pee-chorus

loshon hara- why havent you answered my questions from | February 22, 2011 at 12:58 PM ?

larry sanders

And he's full of shit

larry sanders

Yidandahalf is a douchebag

Jeff

More divine retribution

When it happens to us, they blame it on our treife mezuzot. How do they rationalize it when it happens to them?

Loshon Hora

Shmaryahoo!
Is SMR to blame?

Loshon Hora

http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/
Her you go maybe it is our fault.

ah-pee-chorus

kudos to holland on refusing to permit unneeded suffering to animals just because some group claims an unjustifiable need to do so. i look forward to a time when stunning is required by all nations at which point the holy rabbis will surely receive a divine epiphany to enable stunning without rendering the animal treife, and all will live happily ever after.

Loshon Hora

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/09/kabbalists-make-predictions-for-the-new-year-123.html.
I am no guru nor prophet just a blogger with a little point.

yidandahalf

his skills sharp! LOL!

ah-pee-chorus

Loshon Hora -
your attribution of the earthquake to punish NZ for a stance on shechita is quite reasonable. but i have 2 questions.

1. how can you tell the difference between a quake to punish people for shechita position and a quake to punish them for allowing gays to live freely?
2. since we know all earthquakes are meant to punish sinners why does god cause earthquakes in uninhabited areas and in the ocean? who does this punish? is god just taking target practice to keep his skills sharp?

thanks in advance for your help here.

corn popper

Christ Church quaked. Maybe it's a sign from Allah that the Christian infidels gotta convert to Islam.

Yochanan Lavie

More divine retribution:

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/02/22/2743066/new-zealand-quake-kills-israeli-destroys-chabad-house

Jeff

They don't have anything to do with Invisible Sky Friend being mad because we didn't obey the Sabbatical year or a boy's wee-wee touched another boy's wee-wee.

Of course, a rabbi's hand touching a boy's wee-wee is another matter entirely.

You know, every time anything disastrous happens - Katrina, 9/11 - the evangelicals climb over one another to be the first to announce that it's divine retribution for our growing secularism and the "attack" on Christianity. Meanwhile, Europe has been almost entirely secular for decades, and they haven't been struck down yet (and, socioeconomically, they're doing better than we are).

Back to the topic at hand (Holland and shechita) - Shmarya, how do you feel about this?

yidandahalf

Holland, did you hear that? Calling entity that is Holland, TAKE NOTE AND BE CAREFUL! Holy shit, I bet Holland will wake up and be careful for real now that Loshon Hora has posted his advice.

A. Nuran

Loshon Hora, We can tell you exactly why there are earthquakes, diseases, droughts, fires, crop failures, cometary impacts, tides, insects and all the rest.

They don't have anything to do with Invisible Sky Friend being mad because we didn't obey the Sabbatical year or a boy's wee-wee touched another boy's wee-wee.

Loshon Hora

Wait for Chacham Ovadia's dtosho if he is finished with his own crisis. Leave it to him to say why it may have happened.
I am not happy what happened to NZ, I just want Holland to take note & be careful.

Yochanan Lavie

Apologies to Carole King:

chorus:
I feel the earth move under my feet
I feel buildings tumbling down
I feel my anger start to trembling
Whenever fools abound

Oy vey, vey, when I read such posts
That pretend to know God's ways
Oy, readers, I can't stand it
When ignorance is on display

chorus

Oy, chevra, when the Earth shakes
And the victims are the ones defamed
I know that my emotions
Are something that I just can't tame
I've just got to pray for relief

chorus

Don't act like an a-hole
Worry about your soul
The bodies are not yet cold, all over

I feel the earth move under my feet
I want mercy tumbling down
Tumbling down
Tumbling down
Tumbling down
Tumbling down

yidandahalf

Listen to these shmucks. Foul breath and divine punishment - truly enlightened logic.

Loshon Hora

Look in the Talmud why earthquakes happen.Homosexuality is one the resons, albeit gezeiras shechita isn't mentioned there, but divine punishment is, & that is an atonement, the same way that everyone has to die eventualy,that doesn't make G-d a tyrant you fool.

Yochanan Lavie

What did the innocent victims in Christchurch have to do with the schechita law? Tectonic plates move because a geologically dead Earth cannot sustain life for long, not to punish people. It is sordid to say God is a vindictive tyrant who lashes out at the innocent to punish the guilty. God is not Qaddafi.

larry sanders

yidandahalf has a foul breath

Loshon Hora

Didn't New Zealand just pass a law like this?
& Wow look at the devine punishment.
It is well known & quoted in holy books that when ever Eisov is about to attack Yaakov the first attack is on Shecchita. In the blood libels they blamed the Shochet who was very often the Rabbi too.

Gevezener Chusid

Religious Jews can always become vegetarians. It makes life alot easier: only one set of dishes, the most serious kashrus questions surrounding meat are eliminated, it's demonstrably better for health (especially, as Isaac Bashevis Singer used to say - for the the health of the chicken or cow), it's better for the environment, and it's cheaper. Everyone should cut down on their meat consumption.

That said, there have, throughout the history of the civilized world, always been dispensations for various religious groups to be exempt from certain laws that would infringe upon their religious rights.

corn popper

All because of Rubashkin and his J. Mengele treatment of animals

Posted by: Isa | February 22, 2011 at 06:26 AM

what an analogy!!!

Barry

Dr Dave. Yidandahalf was just stating how equality before the law is to be understood. Equality before the law means that no one must be allowed a benefit or subjected to a prejudice on the grounds of that persons religion or belief. It does not mean that the law may require some qualification before being allowed to do something.

For the law to forbid the riding of motorcycles by those under 17 years of age and who have never passed a test does not breach the principle of equality before the law. For the law to forbid the riding of a motorcycle without a crash helmet, but then to provide an exception for turban wearing sikhs does breach that principle. A law must apply to everyone or none at all. You cannot allow anyone to opt out on the grounds of religion from any law applying to others. Religion cannot be use to benefit a person in law any more than religion can be used to prejudice someone.

Likewise either everyone is allowed to slaughter cattle without pre-stunning or no one is allowed to slaughter cattle without prestunning. You can not however have a situation where some (Christians) are forbidden under heavy penalty and others (Jews and Muslims) are allowed.

Losing shechita for Jews (just as riding motorcycles for sikhs) is a price worth paying to protect the principle of equality before the law. Jews can import meat. Sikhs can ride a bicycle or buy a convertible if they wish to feel the wind in their beards.

yidandahalf

Certainly the undercover videos from Agriprocessors have added a great deal of fuel to the dialogue. To say the Rubash-in story has had no influence on what is going on and has been going on in Holland, NZ., etc. is naive at best.

Thank you Mr. sanders, In fact I took an unusually large dump this morning and therefore, I am assuredly not full of shit.

Barry

The Dutch legislation whilst banning shechita in Holland will not ban the import of kosher meat from outside Holland.

There is no EU constitution as such. The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union makes no mention of shechita.

larry sanders

fuck off yidandahalf...you're full of shit.

state of disgust

ISa etal:

Holland's decision has nothing to do with Rubashkin, Alle or anyone outside of Holland. It has to do with the people of Holland and their interpretation of cruelty to animals. I may disagree with that interpretation - ritual shechita is no more or less cruel then any other form of slaughter - but that is their interpretation. The nose of large animals is a hundred times more sensitive then that of a human. The minute an animal is brought into a slaughter house, they smell blood that can illicit a fear response. Is that not just as cruel as the actual slaughter? Therefore, how the slaughter is carried out is secondary to the other cruelties done and kosher shechita vs stunning first is a phony issue. Furthermore, stunning an animal - usually with a bolt to the head - can be and often is cruel, depending on the speed of the line and the experience of the operator. A bolt to the head of animal that is off by as little as half an inch can cause tremendous pain to the animal. All of this is to say that the I think the decision makers in Holland are full of ... Gouda.

yidandahalf

Isa,
Let us not leave Alle out of this. Who knows how many other? A brief search will reveal the horrors done by the hallal-ites.

ruthie,
We do not need ko$her meat to live well. Ka$h-R-u$ needs us, we do not need Ka$h-R-u$.

ruthie

it's not good for people needing kosher meat...
but i understand holland....they just don't understand and we have to understand that.

yidandahalf

Dr. Dave, With all due respect; out of context the statement could be perceived as ridiculous. However, within the appropriate context, as is plainly demonstrated by my post, it is not at all ridiculous.

Isa

All because of Rubashkin and his J. Mengele treatment of animals

Dr. Dave

What is forbidden to some should be forbidden to all.

I'm sorry but that statement is ridiculous!!!

In that case all surgery should be banned because unlicensed laymen are forbidden to perform surgery!!!!

yidandahalf

"Holland is a liberal country...." This is exactly why religious slaughter is on a track to be banned. Human rights and welfare of animals is on the same platform. Decent treatment of animals should not and must not be separated from any humane philosophy, therefore the above reasoning is unsound and untenable.
The methods used to religiously slaughter animals is illegal if attempted by any other group of citizens and should not be exempt on religious grounds. What is forbidden to some should be forbidden to all.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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