Gay Orthodox Shabbaton "Heaven"

The minyan, with its mechitza, was in the Orthodox tradition, a “service that my own black-hat father would feel right at home in. There were literally people with black hats. There’s something so powerful about not having to withhold part of me. I hadn’t connected to a Friday-night tefilla, prayer, like that in many years.”

 

Gay Orthodox Shabbaton Was Like ‘Heaven’
For those on the margins, a new sense of belonging at first-ever event.
Sandee Brawarsky • The Jewish Week

Usually, when Adam goes to shul, he feels like part of him is just not there. In the black-hat synagogue he attends with his children, he feels that he’s always guarding the secret that he’s gay.

Although he grew up in the haredi community and attended its institutions, he no longer feels comfortable in that world, even as his children are very much integrated into the community. While he has come out to his ex-wife, his children still don’t know.

Last month, he walked into Kabbalat Shabbat services at the Isabella Friedman Retreat Center and felt exhilarated, as the first-ever Orthodox gay lesbian transgender community Shabbaton was beginning. Gone were his fears of not being accepted.

Adam, who is in his 30s, said the minyan, with its mechitza, was in the Orthodox tradition, a “service that my own black-hat father would feel right at home in. There were literally people with black hats. There’s something so powerful about not having to withhold part of me. I hadn’t connected to a Friday-night tefilla, prayer, like that in many years.”

That high continued through the weekend.

Others among the 140 attendees echoed Michael’s words. Participants included 40 women and 100 men of all ages, among them couples with children, people like Michael who grew up Orthodox and were struggling to somehow fit in, ba’alei teshuvah, converts, and those who left the Orthodox world and were now on its margins.

Some were very much in the closet, others were out, and some came out after the weekend. One male couple has a civil marriage and is now planning a religious ceremony, and invited fellow participants to join them. One haredi young man came from England, with the encouragement of a Reform rabbi in whom he confided.

The Shabbaton was organized by Eshel, a collaborative program established by individuals and organizations involved in the Orthodox gay Jewish world, including JQY (Jewish Queer Youth), GLYDSA (Gay and Lesbian Yeshiva Day School Alumni), Tirtzah, Orthodykes and Neharim. Rabbi Steven Greenberg, director of Orthodox programming for Neharim and a member of the seven-person steering commission of Eshel, describes the Shabbaton as an “unmitigated success of the Orthodox gay community.”

Eshel was formed last summer, just around the same time, coincidentally, as a group of Orthodox rabbis issued the “Statement of Principles on the Place of Jews with a Homosexual Orientation in Our Community,” which affirmed that all human beings are to be treated with respect and urged that those Jews with gay orientation be welcomed as full members of the community.

The Shabbaton, meant to be a safe space for attendees to express themselves, was decidedly closed to the press. But shortly after the Jan. 21-23 event, organizers felt that “this was too important a moment not to share,” and invited a reporter to speak with participants. Like Adam, many of the people quoted here are referred to by pseudonyms to protect their privacy. The details of their lives are true.

Adam, whose marriage broke up years ago, is very protective of his children, and understands that the ramifications for them in the haredi community would be huge, if he were to come out. He’s now in a relationship with another man, who’s from a Conservative background and is accommodating to his religious needs. But he remains Orthodox, feeling “foremost a father. This is their world.”

As much of a high as the Shabbaton was, Adam says it’s just not the reality of his life. But the experience has motivated him to move more quickly toward finding a more integrated life. He’s begun the process of trying to figure out how to tell those closest to him, to change this “bizarre half-life that has eclipsed me.

“I feel strongly based on my personal experiences that the continuing push for non-openness — people say, ‘This is your issue, we’ll accept your struggle, but don’t talk about it’ — is so damaging,” he says. That’s what led me to make a very bad choice. At the end of the day I stood under the chupah.”

Sarah, who is in her late 20s and lives outside of Philadelphia, feels very isolated in her Orthodox community but believes there is room for “compassionate acceptance.” Being at the Shabbaton made her realize for the first time that a relationship with a Jewish woman who shared her religious commitment was actually possible.

For Hayley, 33, who is transgender, the entire weekend was “heaven, like walking through a dream. You didn’t feel like you were being analyzed or judged, no need to look around worrying about what other people were thinking.” She attended along with her wife Lena and 7-year-old son.

Hayley grew up as an Orthodox man in the Sephardic world, where he was taunted, not supported by the rabbis, and never felt like he fit in; he later served in the U.S. Navy and married. After five years of marriage, he told Lena about the cross-gender feelings that were making him feel miserable in his life. Lena supported his efforts to change sexes, and they have remained a couple.

Their son used to go to a yeshiva, but after Haley’s transition, they sent him to a public school out of concerns for his comfort and hope someday to switch him back. The couple prefers Sephardic-type services but rarely go to synagogue in their Brooklyn neighborhood, as Haley knows that some people in the community know about her, including some relatives, and “people in this community can be violent.” She adds, “I feel that rabbis and other should reserve their judgment until they’ve been in my shoes.”

Hayley, who punctuates her conversation with “Baruch Hashem,” thanking God, says that they would like to find a close-knit community where she and Lena could feel at home. She laughs and says that they have many more friends now that she’s a woman, and most are Orthodox.

Some participants cried on the telephone as they recalled experiences with rabbis who told them they were unwelcome to study in their yeshivas or that “suicide wasn’t such a bad outcome if therapy didn’t work,” or relatives who sent condolences as though they had cancer. Several spoke of being sent by family members and rabbis to reparative therapy — with the intention that they would be “fixed” or changed — and how painful and damaging that was.

For Yoshi, who grew up with emotional and physical abuse, the very rabbis who brought him deeper into a committed Orthodox lifestyle were the ones who rejected him once they learned of his sexuality, tore his belief away from him and fractured his relationship with God. He attended with his partner, and both are thinking of becoming rabbis.

Several participants said that they made their own peace with halacha, or were at least at peace with themselves, citing that very few people can strictly follow all of the laws, and that they try to live with integrity, according to Torah values. Some spoke of possibilities of different interpretations. One man admitted he had no good answers, and has both respect for the halacha and a strong feeling that “this is the way that God made me.”

Moshe, 45, who lives in the South and feels triply ostracized as Jewish, Orthodox and gay, says, “Orthodoxy needs to evolve, to embrace gays and lesbians in their midst. They are in their midst. Nobody here is trying to change halacha; we’re not trying to negate the Torah. We’re trying to ask, Will people please make room for us?”

A member of the group that built the gay and lesbian synagogue in Greenwich Village, Congregation Beth Simchat Torah, Barry, 64, found that Orthodox liturgy speaks to him most and now belongs to an Orthodox shul on the Upper West Side. He has come out with his rabbi, and feels that many in the synagogue know about his status, even if they don’t talk about it, and have long been welcoming toward him.

Joe, a graduate student in psychology in his mid-20s from the New York area who identifies as Modern Orthodox down to the core, says that he gained a historical perspective on the issues by attending the Shabbaton. He now has great admiration for those who are generations older who had remarkable courage.

“I have the Internet — I would still be in the closet without it,” he adds.

Yehuda Greenberg, project director for Eshel, said that the Shabbaton exceeded expectations. While they had initially thought of it as an annual event, they will probably hold them more frequently.

“There has been a watershed change in the last 10 years in how this challenge is being addressed in the Orthodox community,” says Naomi S. Mark, a licensed clinical social worker in private practice in New York City who sees a lot of Orthodox LGBT clients as well as their families.

“The Shabbaton was a milestone in showing how the Orthodox gay community is getting organized, supporting each other’s efforts to stay connected to their religious roots even as they explore their identity in new ways.”

Mark sees the conventional Orthodox community as much more open than a decade ago, and encourages gay people to keep telling their stories to promote understanding. “It makes one hopeful for what can happen in another 10 years.

Comments

[Jeff]

I've always found it difficult to understand why they continue to identify as Orthodox (unless, of course, they have children and can't leave the community). They'll always be treated as second class citizens at best.

I remember a young man in Trembling Before God, who flew from LA to Chicago (I think), where he had grown up, to visit a Chabad rabbi who had years earlier suggested "reparative therapy" (which had, of course, been unsuccessful). The rabbi was actually quite kind to him, was happy to see him, told him he accepted him as a Jew, wouldn't tell him to go back into "therapy" - but also told him he couldn't validate his lifestyle. The young man was in tears. Every time I see the film, I say to myself, "What did you think he was going to say?"

I guess I just don't fully appreciate the hold this sort of indoctrination has on people. I was brought up with almost no observance, have little use for religion and I'm not much of a community-oriented guy. It always confounds me that, when there are many liberal congregations that are accepting of GLBT people and open about declaring it, people still cling to Orthodoxy.

They just keep waiting and waiting for the frum world (or, at least, the Modern Orthodox) to issue a dispensation, to tell them, "Okay, we're retaining everything else - but, to accommodate you, we're letting this one thing go." It isn't gonna happen.

Then there are those who accept the Torah's prohibition (if it does, in fact, refer to consensual same-sex relationships), yet still want to identify as Orthodox. They "live with the tension". This just floors me altogether.

[tzvi]

I am glad they had a nice time. I am curious how they handled the Mechitzah issue. Did they separate strictly based on sex or sexual orientation? I mean I don't think that it would be appropriate for a gay or lesbian “couple” to be sitting next to each other since that flies in the face of just what a Mechitzah is all about. A Mechitzah is meant to separate a husband from their wives.

The land will mourn each of the families by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself and their wives by themselves; and all the families who remain, each of the families by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:12-14.

It does not say the males(men) of the house of David by itself, and the females(women) by themselves.

[ruthie]

i give them tons of credit for still wanting to go to shul. and i'm thrilled they can.
good for them!!

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Gay Orthodox Shabbaton "Heaven"

Sounds like they had their fill of all the shaved ass, peni and scroti they can handle.

MOSCHIACH!

[M2M shadchan]

SR were you there? is that the point of this story? will you be coming out soon?

it would explain alot.

[tooclose2detroit]

What the hell is the mystery here?
If Torah is true, then homosexual men (not women, thankfully) is outlawed and punishable by stoning-I didnt write it!!it's in the book!-no talmud needed-right there, clearly as Obama's smoke free breath--it you dont believe the Torah is true, then Have a Happy Hershey Highway-but to say that I am going to believe in a book that says I should be stoned for expressing my sexuality, and still think it is ok to have homsesexual male relations?? How fucking twisted does a brain have to be not to be able to grasp how illogical that is?-
"Free abortions for liberals-SAVE THE WORLD!!!!"

[Shmarya]

SR were you there? is that the point of this story? will you be coming out soon?

it would explain alot.

Posted by: M2M shadchan | February 09, 2011 at 10:12 AM

No, I wasn't there and I'm not "coming out" because I have nothing to "come out" from.

But speaking of coming out, why not post using your real name? Perhaps doing that would give all of a better idea of what you may be hiding.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Too close,

Plenty of frumme women have abortions. Just not in their neighborhood hospitals.
When a loved one of yours faces a catastrophic pregnancy that needs to be terminated, and no rabbi will sanction it, let's see where she goes.

There are no gays or abortions in frumme neighborhoods.

[tooclose2detroit]

I never said that frumme women didnt have abortions-not sure how, unless you were an abortionist, or sat in your little Yugo outside an abortion center, how you would know that-all I said was that I hope liberals have lots and lots of abortions-I am the only conservative I know that sends a check to Planned Parenthood every year-who the hell wants more liberals??-not I!-but thats the fucking issue-I am not even condemning gays, in any neighborhood-I couldnt give a crap what people do to each other, if they are cool with it-I am (try to pay attention now, because it gets a bit deep) pointing out how fucking retardedly insane it is to say "I believe and want to be part of a religion that says that I get stoned for acting upon my sexual desires"-if you believe that God truly wrote that it is a toeva (translation-disgusting abomination), then you have to believe that, either God is screwed up in the head, or YOU are screwed up in the head, and must alter yourself-but to believe that God meant what he says in the Torah, and to pretend that the part that you dont like doesnt exist, is typical fucking liberal brain dead horseshit, which is why I support Planned Parenthood!!!(sorry if that was too deep for your media destroyed brain).

[WoolSilkCotton]

++M2M shadchan | February 09, 2011 at 10:12 AM++

And if Shmarya, or anyone else here, was gay, why is that a reason to mock them?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Too close,
You would be a lot happier over on VIN, where you could schmooze with like-minded people.

[M2M Shadchan]

++M2M shadchan | February 09, 2011 at 10:12 AM++

And if Shmarya, or anyone else here, was gay, why is that a reason to mock them?

no... but it would be one of the MANY reasons he is still single

[tooclose2detroit]

woolsilkcotton
no interest in shmoozing with like minded people-my only interest is seeing if I can shake a brain dead zombie liberal to either
1-counter my arguments with logical counter arguments
2-waking a brain dead liberal zombie to have a moment of logical consciousness not ruled by emotion just once, before they fuck up the world any more than they already have-
Am I too optimistic that one of these things will happen??-yeah, probably.-trying to get a liberal to think logically is probably as futile as getting a fish to dance, but, I keep hoping-maybe just once......

[Garnel Ironheart]

What a profound misunderstanding of Judaism. Look, for example, at the mention of the mechitzah. Very nice, very Orthodox except the point of it is to prevent men from looking at women due to sexual attraction. If you have a bunch of gay men all sitting together with no interest in the lesbians present, what use is the mechitzah?
This is about people who want the externalities, the look of Orthodoxy but without understand what Orthodoxy really is.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination"

[tooclose2detroit]

ya left out the stones crushin yer stones part.

[.]

Too close,
You would be a lot happier over on VIN, where you could schmooze with like-minded people.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 09, 2011 at 11:03 AM

Group think!

[.]

"72 Hairy Billy Goat Butts"
Yehuda Levin's description of Yaaser Arafat's Heaven

[tooclose2detroit]

WSC (too lazy to type in yer full name)-in case ya havent noticed, its signs of thinking I am trying to discover over here-still searching-Here is a crazy, really wild concept-howz about countering my assertions???-my guess is that you are intellectually ill equipped to even try, and too intellectually dishonest to even consider changing yer position-let me take a wild guess-you voted for obama-along with Ruthie, and her sweet little rasta friend.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Too close,

Winning over people, even with persuasive arguments, rarely occurs when you shower them with insults, ridicule, name-calling, etc.

As Oliver Cromwell said, "Think it possible you may be mistaken".

Only a fool or a religious fanatic is absolutely convinced that he is infallibly correct and the other side is utterly wrong. A reasonable person recognizes there is validity to both sides of every issue.

Consider reading about the history of the Republican Party and their position on Israel 1947-1992, Germany 1933-41, and other issues vital to American Jews prior to your year of birth. You may be surprised, indeed disturbed, at what you find.

Unlike yourself, I see good ideas and principles emanating from both political parties nowadays.

Too much Fox News, or CNBC, or VIN, are not healthy for the mind.

Good luck to you in all your future endeavors towards determining truth and social justice.

[tooclose2detroit]

in other words-you cant counter a word I've said-gee-I am sooooooo suprised-if you took the time to type all that, when why couldnt you spend a moment countering my argument?-bekuz ya went to college, and were programmed not to fucking think, thats why.-You may be talented in the art of reciting back historical facts, but ya sure dont seem to have the ability to critically disect those facts-wait-let me guess-ya voted for Obama.-and ya probably have a masters degree-which means that you actually paid for extra years for them to freeze yer brain-it shows.

[tooclose2detroit]

O-BTW-validity on both sides of every issue?-was there validity on the Nazi side that we should be turned into lampshades and bars of soap?-Gee, WSC, that was really hard-destroying your thought process has exhausted me...maybe you have a Phd.

[WoolSilkCotton]

"...turned into lampshades and bars of soap.."

In your case, it would be an improvement.

[ah-pee-chorus]

these LGBT's are unfortunately intellectual cowards. while i hate to appear to agree with certain posters, they should not be seeking acceptance from orthodox judaism. since orthos believe in the divinity of the torah as well as the rabbinical interperetations, there is no room for equivocation. they believe gays are abominable and that they have made a choice to be attracted to their own sex.
by attempting to be orthodox gays are tacitly admitting that they are sick and immoral sinners but wish to be treated no differently than other imperfect jews.
since i'm sure most of these gays are quite certain they had no choice as to whom they are attracted to , they must believe that god created them sick and yet commands them to be well .(props to hitchens) they should ask themselves how that could be possible of a loving and just god. the only rational answer is that either
a) the ortho interperetation is wrong , which, given the clarity of the passuk is too big a stretch....or
b) a just and merciful god could never have written such a thing.

either answer would call for a complete rejection of ortho judaism.
they should also realize that it is the very bible they think they love that is the source for most of the worlds anti-gay bias.

[tooclose2detroit]

wow-the libby piece of dogshit shows his true stripes-no chiddush there, thats for sure!-I ask for intelligent answers, and you wish me death-you will, no doubt, be applying for a Capo position once the decision is made that all those dastardly conservatives must be eliminated.

[yankele]

Tooclose2detroit:

I'll have a gander at giving you an answer.

If you believe that the Torah is the word of God and you believe that Torah is a living document as when the Torah says "Vochai Bohem". If you believe, as the Talmud states, that God does not place insurmountable obstacles before his creations (ein hakadosh baruch hu bah betruniosov (CK) im briyosav), then one must question and struggle with the issue of why did God create people who are attracted to their own sex???

Could it be that maybe the Torah just forbids anal sex??? Does it really forbid a man from loving another man???

SIDE NOTE: Should rabbis treat people who have homosexual sex similarly to those who desecrate Shabbat??? (especially if the Homosexual has money)What about Kosher, the Torah refers to some non-kosher consumption as Toevah? Should rabbis rail against those people who eat not-kosher rare steaks???

In yeshiva, I had a roommate who came out to me. He tried to marry. (I must say that the number of women who had sex with him trying to "cure" him made me very jealous) He even had a child. He eventually divorced his wife because he COULDN'T love her as he loved other men (This is a whole other topic, should men stay in loveless marriages?? Should a woman be forced to stay is such a marriage??

I only wish this group could have existed back then and that rabbis could have had the courage discuss this issue back then. It would have prevented the pain, suffering and wreckage that my roommate left in his wake.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Too close,

Please explain for us what you think a CAPO was.

I assume you read Primo Levi's 'Life in Auschwitz', and read the chapter describing the mentality of the CAPO and the reasons why so many Jews wanted to be CAPO.

Kindly reconcile your understanding and explanation with that of Primo Levi. I eagerly await an intellectual dissertation on the subject from you. You are obviously a student of the Holocaust, and so this should be an easy one for you to handle.

I'm waiting.

[Jeff]

tooclose2detroit makes me almost nostalgic about Harold.

God, there are things you never think you're going to hear yourself say...

[Moshe aron kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

Most have been an assed filled shabathon, A showcase of Dick's Variety

[Moshe aron kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

Must have been alot of closit's there in the hotel for all the coming out of the closet dicks. Also the catering must have been cheaper cause no need to serve chulent when you screw ass chew

[Michelle]

B"H

Homosexuals are children of G-d. G-d forbid that some rabbi would tell them that suicide is an option. This is the most horrible thing I have ever heard!

We all struggle with our Yetzer Hara, we all sin, none of us are "perfect."

The perfect person is not a Jewish ideal. None of our patriarchs and none of our matriarchs were perfect. They were amazing because, even with their imperfections, they struggled to improve the world, follow G-d's law, and deal with the adversities of the human condition.

So, they are gay--so what? It is our actions, not our predilections that are important.

We must concern ourselves with the mitzvot, and everyone must pay attention to their own mitzvot (and the mitzvot of our children) before we start involving ourselves in the mitzvot of others. We must not judge others.

So, why shouldn't they be orthodox? Why shouldn't they be considered good Jews? Do we know their actions, or just their predilections?

We do not have the right to assume anything of anyone, and we are supposed to always assume the best.

G-d bless these Jews, may they grow in Mitzvot every day.

[Adam Neira]

G-d is incredibly patient. He will give people many chances to change behaviour. However he has strict time limits. The individual and the collective reaps what they sow. The level of perceived happiness these people are experiencing by these events is nothing compared to what they would experience if they stopped certain behaviours and started to define themselves differently. It is difficult for a senior mountain climber to explain the complexity and beauty of the view higher up on the mountain to those stuck on the lower ledges.

[Yael]

All of you who commented are complete ass holes and nothing in this world can redeem you as human beings. Youll continue yapping your imbecile pie holes till death, and remain superficial idiots. Insulting is the only way to speak to any of you. And blah, blah, blah go ahead and insult me back and say something more moronic, which is what you all are, waste of human skin.

[Shalom Con]

Kol HaKavod Lahem. Reading these comments makes it very clear why the frum GBLT community needs a stronger support system.

Since when does one avayra mean that none of the others apply? I was taught that one Mitzvah has nothing to do with another. So why expect frum men to abandon their beliefs just because they're gay? And across all gay social strata - all around the world, the overwhelming consensus is that same sex attraction is not a choice that can be deprogrammed.

The common interpretation is that the prohibition is about anal sex between men. So what if a man is gay, but never has anal sex? Should he still be stoned? (And who exactly is witness to such transgressions?) Is this man any worse than someone enjoying the aroma from a treif restaurant, but never eating their fare? I thought that there's no lesbian prohibition, so why are women ostracized as well?

I suppose that being gay could lead to a transgression, but temptation itself is not an avayra.

[tooclose2detroit]

woolsilkslinen, or whatever it is-I was wrong in calling you a Capo wannabe-a Capo, in my understanding, was a jewish policeman that worked alongsides the nazis with the idea of saving his skin, literally-so, the analogy was not a good one, because to say that you would be a capo over conservativicide would imply that you were a conservative that had turned on your fellow conservatives to save your skin-the more accurate definition of your dream job would, therefore, be a concentration camp guard to assist and oversee the elimination of conservatives-because you are too intellectually dishonest to take on my ideas, you would prefer to see me as a bar of soap-my bad-you're a guard, not a capo-am i forgiven??
Yankele-thanks for the attempt at an answer, but, it doesnt say that anal sex is forbidden, and i dont think it is in Judyism-the posek says that a man shall not lie with another man the way a man lies with a woman, and that it is a disgusting abomination, and they get stoned-now, again-tooclose2detroit is not the author of the Torah-it was either the big guy in the sky, or it was a bunch of homophobic rabbis-but to say that one believes it was the Big Cheese, and then to say "but he didnt really mean it", is whacked-doesnt say they cant love each other, kiss, etc-but, the Hershey Highway between men is, in the Torahs words, pretty clearly forbidden-unless, it might have been talking about a man with a vagina-like woolskilkstocking, or whatever the fuck he calls himself.
Michelle-true, we all struggle with our YH's-but, you wont find a thief running around saying "its cool to be a thief, and forming minyons for thieves-youwont find adulterers running around proudly forming minyons for adulterers-That is the difference here-they say that there is nothing wrong with behavior that the Torah says is ossur, even though they profess to believe in the divinity of Torah-what the hell dont people get about that???????

[tooclose2detroit]

O-BTW-my words after ah-pee-chorus's post were meant for silkstocking, not ah-pee-chorus-it hit the forum right after his post, but was not meant for you-we actually agree on this issue-only liberal minds, controlled by emotion and devoid of logic, cant grasp how ridiculous these "minyons" are. and Yael-no one put a damn gun to your head to make you read any of these posts-if you dont like them, then go back to your clicker and watch ophrah-you wont have to think, and you will be much more comfortable.

[ah-pee-chorus]

-only liberal minds, controlled by emotion and devoid of logic, cant grasp how ridiculous these "minyons" are.

i hate to puncture your simplistic view of the world as being made up of only brilliant, honest ,conservatives and stupid, illogical liberals but....
i am a socially liberal fiscally conservative libertarian and yet somehow , as you pointed out,you agree with me on this issue. does that mean i'm not a liberal? or am i wrong here?

[Michelle]

B"H

Very nice bit of logic, Tooclose. You don't mind if I find huge holes in it do you?

It is true that there are no murderers forming minyanim or adulterers forming minyanim ...but I seem to recall there are whole congregations of Jews eating non-Kosher food and intermarrying with non-Jews and saying it is cool to be "Reform." They have their own minyanim and stand around congratulating themselves for not following Torah, and the same word that is used for homosexual sex is also used for those who eat non-Kosher.

There are also whole congregations of "Jews" forming minyanim and worshiping a dead man on a stick and calling themselves cool.

OH, and the group of Jews who insist they are orthodox and form minyanim to worship a dead man in a fedora and call themselves cool and insist there is "nothing wrong with behavior that the Torah says is ossur, even though they profess to believe in the divinity of Torah--what the hell don't people get about that?????????"

So, tell me, Tooclose, what is wrong with a minyan of orthodox homosexuals when we have whole movements of idol worshipers that everyone puts up with because they parade around in tzitzit and fedoras and call themselves "holy."

[Moshe aron kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

This homo gathering should call themselfs the " TUCHUS MINYAN" or Cong, Anshie TUCHUS. The head rabbi of the Anshie Tuchus shul is the one who has the biggest TUCHUS. but guys this is all about a big Tuchus fest, a banda leitsem un neidertrectiga yungen, mamzeirim lowlifes fuckups dopes.

[tooclose2detroit]

ah-pee-chorus
it means that although you may be a liberal, you have somehow managed to keep enough critical thinking skills that you can grasp the logic that it is whacked for someone to say that they are orthodox if they think it is ok to participate in a lifestyle that the Torah clearly says is ossur-congratulations on this achievement, and perhaps that logic forming part of your brain will increase.

Michelle-thank you thank you thank you for at least engaging me in an ideas battle-perhaps others will see that it is possible to do more than call names-Hell, I am certainly a name caller, but i intersperse it with alot of content re my arguments-my response to you is as follows

I aint no chabad follower, but they are only slightly more whacked than most chasidishe movements-they claim to have scripture on their side, and usually when i get involved in arguments with long bearded guys that have been learning all their lives, I lose, because I dont have the breadth of knowledge to argue. My litvak Rabbis tell me they are whacked, so I will go along with them, kuz they learn all day and I figure they probably know something-as far as christians-not sure where you are going with that one-of course any believing jew would say they are whacked-but they at least say that God changed his mind, and the old laws are meaningless-reform doesnt know what the hell they believe-they make a beracho over a Torah which they say is man made, so there is no logic at all there-BUT orthodox gays say they DO believe in Torah-but then they glorify something that the Torah CLEARLY ossurs-no Talmudic interpretations, no derashas, nada-it says quite clearly that its an obomination-tooclose didnt write it-personally I have no problem with it, but that aint the issue-anyhow, kudos again for engaging me in a disagreement of IDEAS-

[ah-pee-chorus]

Moshe aron kestenbaum-

you sound upset. whats the matter? did the older bochrim not show enough interest in you at yeshiva?

[Dave]

Moshe Aaron Kestenbaum- that was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh !

[Moshe aron kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

Moshe aron kestenbaum-

you sound upset. whats the matter? did the older bochrim not show enough interest in you at yeshiva?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | February 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM

Hey I would rather have ten wifes then one bucher