The Online 'Voice Of The Gedolim' Pouts About Reaction To The Vos Iz Neias Ban

"[VIN's supporters] ignore the incessant reporting by VIN of every frum Jew accused of doing something wrong. The Jewish world never had such reporting. Yes, people found out information from the non-Jewish world, but that is the way it should be. Mainstream Jewish reporting was designed to be free of gossip, rumors and allegations" – Matzav.com.

Harry Maryles, Have You No Shame?
By Rabbi Gavriel Rivlin • Matzav.com

It’s one thing to think something in one’s heart. It’s another to broadcast one’s thoughts over the airways, especially when it involves publicly questioning and openly criticizing gedolei Yisroel.

I admit that it is kind of ironic to deal with this issue on the internet, which seems to have become a breeding ground of sorts for those who wish to express their disdain for our most revered leaders and their decisions. But I am so disturbed by what I heard expressed by Rabbi Harry Maryles on the Zev Brenner radio show this past Motzoei Shabbos that I feel it is incumbent on me - and perhaps cathartic in dealing with my frustration - to express my outrage.

To be clear, our gedolim don’t need anyone, and surely not me, to defend their actions or counter those who publicly castigate them, but as Rav Chaim Brisker is quoted as saying, “Oib es tut vey shreit men - If it hurts, one screams.”

And it hurts. And I can’t help but protest the chillul Hashem that has ensued following the release of a recent kol korei. In fact, perhaps it is an even bigger chillul Hashem than the one which the kol korei addresses.

The kol korei released recently regarding a so-called “Jewish” and “Orthodox” website has garnered much attention. On the internet, with the help of several websites - two of which have connections to, or whose writers have worked or written for, the website in question - the kol korei was first branded as false and later painted as the work of an individual with an agenda.

Reading those claims, one would believe that the Vos Iz Neias website was in the category of a mainstream chareidi newspaper, pure of lashon harah, rechilus and anything objectionable, and the kol korei is simply preposterous. Those like Harry Maryles, Zev Brenner and others would have you believe that you couldn’t read a more pure and untainted publication than Vos Iz Neias.

Apparently, they haven’t read the site, because even those who defend the Vos Iz Neias website admit that its attraction is the fact that it pushes the envelope and reports those things that no self-respecting frum publication would publish.

It would appear that Harry Maryles and those who share his views wish to ignore the public defamation by VIN of the respected Dor Yeshorim organization, the false report by VIN regarding Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin, and the publication of a report condemning a respected Monsey rov who stood up for kedushas Yisroel. 

They ignore the incessant reporting by VIN of every frum Jew accused of doing something wrong. The Jewish world never had such reporting. Yes, people found out information from the non-Jewish world, but that is the way it should be. Mainstream Jewish reporting was designed to be free of gossip, rumors and allegations.

When a Jewish fellow from Lakewood was arrested, Vos Iz Neias gave free reign to those who wished to mock lomdei Torah, allowing commenters to call yungeleit hypocrites and names that I can’t write here. Similarly, the VIN comments have long been utilized as a platform for those who wish to question the decisions of rabbonim in a public domain. Anytime rabbonim have said something that certain people didn’t understand, didn’t agree with, or didn’t like to hear, they have been able to use VIN’s comments section to question the words of the gedolim. Such questions should be posed to admorim and rabbonim privately and not put out there in public for people to devaluate our Torah leaders.

This is compounded in general by a use of unedited language taken directly from non-frum media sources, the type of language unbefitting a frum audience convinced that they are reading a frum blog.

[It should be clear that we are not referring to mistakes that are made and are corrected. Every publication, websites included, is run by human beings who err. To err is human. But not to apologize or issue a change or correction is to suggest that "We don't give a hoot." In the aforementioned examples, despite requests, the VIN site never issued an apology, clarification or correction. Clearly, the truth has never mattered to its operators.

Some have tried to argue that there is nothing wrong with Vos Iz Neias, as it just provides up-to-the minute true Jewish news. The Jerusalem Post, The Forward and others do that too - alongside many of their immodest ads, objectionable comments and unfiltered language. If people go there to get news, that's their prerogative, but for mosdos and frum businesses to advertise on a such a site portrays it as being hashkafically mainstream when it is not. This is indeed problematic. There are some readers who assume that a site must be kosher based on the fact that frum businesses and mosdos advertise there. Viewed objectively, however, the VIN site has a liberal agenda, posting material and comments that fit its agenda and that are often not in consonance with Torah ideals.

The VIN site has also, despite being notified about it numerous times, unapologetically subscribed to secular advertising agencies which randomly feed ads to the website. A number of those ads have contained blatantly inappropriate text and images. These ads ran alongside those of mosdos and frum businesses. While this does not always happen, there must be some effort on the part of a frum website to ensure that this does not happen. Ignoring this demonstrates a total lack of responsibility or regard for what is proper and what is not.]

This is all ignored by Maryles, who unabashedly - on air and on his blog - questioned and criticized our gedolim, while simultaneously proclaiming how much he respects them and their mesiras nefesh.

In fact, this past Motzoei Shabbos, Maryles remarked on air to Zev Brenner that “he’s never seen anything [on Vos Iz Neias] remotely close to what was described in the kol korei.”

We guess he conveniently skipped over the articles and examples we gave above. How convenient. And there are dozens more examples. One need not be a Sherlock Holmes to find them.

Zev Brenner is a kind and sincere broadcaster, but we wish that he would stop allowing his radio show to continually serve as a medium for those looking to criticize our gedolim and those who operate mosdos haTorah and chinuch in American communities.

Both Maryles and Brenner made statements without picking up a phone to call even one of the signatories of the kol korei, including the Novominsker Rebbe, who, as pointed out on the radio show, was a rebbi of Maryles at the Hebrew Theological College (Skokie Yeshiva). Could he not pick up a phone to call the Rebbe, or Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, or any of the gedolim who signed? Is that too much to ask for before publically questioning our gedolim and, in essence, calling them competent?

What a disgrace. What a chillul Hashem.

Wouldn’t Harry expect one to call him to ascertain the veracity and background of his signature before he is publically lambasted?

Contrary to what Harry apparently believes, expressing one’s admiration for gedolim does not then give one a green light to publically question and criticize their views or stances. It is a disgrace of the highest regard, and it is shocking that Harry had no qualms about doing so.

Mr. Larry Gordon, the hardworking and dedicated publisher of The Five Towns Jewish Times appeared on the Zev Brenner show after Harry Maryles. It was Mr. Gordon’s publication, The Five Towns Jewish Times, that was first to report claims that the kol korei was orchestrated by an individual with an agenda [this is false; I was the first to report it right here on FailedMessiah.com, and the 5TJT stole it from me – Shmarya], painting a picture of a flawless frum website that for some unknown reason was targeted by the gedolim. While Mr. Gordon sounded sincere on air and mentioned that there could be other legitimate motivating factors that prompted the rabbonim, that it is not what was stated in The Five Towns Jewish Times.

Neither Mr. Gordon nor Rabbi Yair Hoffman, a talented writer who writes for both The Five Towns Jewish Times and Vos Iz Neias and is often outspoken on communal issues, issued any statement about speaking to gedolim on the matter. Nowhere in The Five Towns Jewish Times article that questioned the validity of the gedolim’s statement was there mention of Mr. Gordon or Rabbi Hoffman or someone else calling the gedolim who signed the kol korei for their response to the claims made.

What is bothersome is that when a frum couple went on a court show and seemed to have gotten bungled in “Shaitel Gate,” Rabbi Hoffman wasted no time in making his way down to Georgie’s in Brooklyn to get to the bottom of the story.

Did this kol korei deserve any less? Could not the gedolim have been paid a visit?

It is astounding that a so-called frum newspaper would publish an article stating, in no uncertain terms, that our gedolim were fooled into signing a kol korei without mentioning speaking to even one of the rabbonim. Not one.

Once again, is that too much to ask for?

And while we appreciate Mr. Brenner’s expertise in radio broadcasting and his desire to conduct a fair and balanced interview on the matter, we found it very disturbing that Zev, during his discussions and at the end of the broadcast, referred to the website which the gedolim forbade as “great” and “wonderful.”

So we have Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, the Novominsker Rebbe and some of our other gedolim stating that the website is a chillul Hashem, and we have Zev Brenner calling it “great” and “wonderful.”

Zev, we expect more from you. You have done so much good and you are a truly honest and forthright individual. We are sure it was not intentional, but we must stand up for kavod haTorah.

At the same time, we have Harry Maryles sharing his “theories” and “guesses” - those were his words - about the whys and the whats of the kol korei. We have him making assumptions and sharing speculations without picking up a phone. We have him stating that he is “the last person to give advice” to the gedolim, and then promptly stating that gedolim “don’t have time to do research, and if they can’t make proclamations accurately, innocent people get hurt.”

You read correctly. Harry Maryles has the nerve, on public radio, to disparage gedolim in ways that are simply shocking. “I no longer believe that due diligence is done,” adds Harry.

When questioned to whom he was addressing his remarks, Harry said that people “should not lose faith in our rabbinic leadership,” and his message is actually to “the leadership to be a bit more careful” and “not let this happen again.”

If this wasn’t on air, you’d think I made it up or that the remarks were issued by someone from outside the frum community.

Yet here we have a rabbi, a member of the frum community, going on air, giving advice to our gedolim, saying they are irresponsible, and admitting that he had not spoken to even one of them prior to making his remarks.

“If they keep making mistakes, people will question their leadership capabilities,” he said.

Harry, have you no shame?

No, it wasn’t our gedolim who are mistaken. It is you who made the egregious mistake of vilifying our gedolim in a public venue. For the life of me, I can’t understand the justification for such conduct, from a rabbi no less.

Perhaps Harry does not understand what is wrong with VIN because he is guilty of the same thing the website has been at fault for. If one thinks a gadol has erred or was manipulated, chas veshalom, one doesn’t discuss it publically, which can hurt the way our generation perceives our Einei Ha’edah. Instead, one should get involved in shtadlonus and present their questions properly to a gadol. VIN, as mentioned above, has allowed people to question or mock what our leaders say about issues they don’t understand or are just not comfortable with. Apparently, Harry feels that’s okay.

So I say to Harry and those who espouse his mistaken views, if we’re at the point where public castigation of gedolim has become an accepted practice, then we might as well all close up shop, move to the Amazon, and leave our hallowed traditions behind, because the Yiddishkeit I was taught had the gedolim serving as the Einei Ha’eidah, the guide posts of the generation, not the objects of scorn and ridicule, chas vechalilah.

This paragraph is priceless:

They ignore the incessant reporting by VIN of every frum Jew accused of doing something wrong. The Jewish world never had such reporting. Yes, people found out information from the non-Jewish world, but that is the way it should be. Mainstream Jewish reporting was designed to be free of gossip, rumors and allegations.

It's like reading Pravda during the Cold War on a day when someone spiked the censor's punch with truth serum. "We the editors of Pravda do not report the truth. For the truth you must surreptitiously listen to the BBC or Radio Free Europe."

Welcome to the haredi world, my friends. The Politbureau has spoken, the doors to the insane asylum are wide open, and the inmates are in charge of the asylum.

[Hat Tip: Burich.]

Comments

[SJ]

Orthodoxy tends to minimize the ability of the average follower to have an individual opinion.

[Neshama]

But what will they say when after 120 the video in Shomayim reveals all the foibles? What will they say then, that they allowed children to be used and their neshomas destroyed because of ...(censored)!

[effie]

Ugh. I remember Matzov was filled with lies about the Grossman case. It seems like there is no prohibition against lying on behalf of thieves, child abusers, and/or murderers.

[joeyd]

Such gablidiguke. What you're saying is we should all be a bunch of mind numb robots. Irs 2011 wake the fuck up.

[Abe]

"Neither Mr. Gordon nor Rabbi Yair Hoffman, a talented writer who writes for both The Five Towns Jewish Times and Vos Iz Neias and is often outspoken on communal issues, issued any statement about speaking to gedolim on the matter"

You know in a normal world the guy would have a point, but we don't live in a normal world. When was the last time we actually got a reasoned explanation for the "gedolim's" decision? Did they speak with Slifkin when they all got together to ban him? Or even have a half-cogent explanation for it afterward? No, there are papers with people's names on it, who only knows if those people are actually aware of it, and it gets put into the public domain as authoritative. There's no mechanism through which one can have meaningful discussions on these topics, and it's perfectly natural then to comment on the piece of paper because, in the end, the paper is what actually matters, not the person at the bottom who may or may not have actually signed.

[Loshon Hora]

To me it seems the more you go on about this the more you show an agenda. Go to R’ Berel wine’s site, & see how he explainds bans is Jewish history, it is a knowen fact the more you ban something the more people are curious & check it out.
As far as I know all those who officially signed have also banned internet altogether including Matzav.com, I don’t see the difference. Unless you are telling me that the ban was a hechsher on Matzav & Yeshiva World TLS, Yudels Failed moshiach & all the others. It was definatly not.
I feel your pushing this ban, is sending more traffic to VIN than before.
I also wonder if VIN is our biggest problem, like R’ Elyashuv told Amnon Y that he wouldn’t sign his kol koreh against the singers, because Klal Yisroel is facing bigger problems.
There are no signatures on the paper did Matzav call any of the signees to check they signed?
I heard from an out of town Rov, that a local Menahel[of an out of town school] called on them, to say he had seen the ban in the newspaper, & the Gadol answered yes I was shown the paper, I also just saw it. {meaning the first he knew his name was on the ban was from the paper.}
I know you may censor my comment, but please check, with the Rabbonim who signed after all there are no signatures.

Thank you for your comment! It has been added to the moderation queue and will be published here if approved by the webmaster.

This was my comment on Matzav still waiting for the politburo censurship.

[Loshon Hora]

52. Comment from Loshon Hora
Time December 27, 2010 at 4:04 PM

So loshon Hora on Zev Brenner Yair Hoffman & Harry Marelus ,[maybe they called on the signers & were told that he never signed, they also learned the sugya of eidus shebotloh miktzoso botloh kuloh] is muter & warrented on Matzav.
I guess you have all the signatures on the KolKoreh giving a hechsher to this hypocrytical piece of loshon hora, or very likely motzei shem ra?
Dear Matzav please look in the mirror when you ridicule VIN.
I am posting this on other blogs, because your censorhip has a chazacka of not posting any of my comments which point out the truth & your own short-commings.

Thank you for your comment! It has been added to the moderation queue and will be published here if approved by the webmaster.

I just posted another one lets see if they print any.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Perhaps time has finally come for the Gedolim to start policing their criminal element "Rabbis" who lie, cheat, steal, embezzle, fornicate etc.

It is time for the Gedolim to be proactive and do something positive in order to stop future cases of "Rabbinical" crime and chillul hashem in their tracks instead of advising "me" to shut my Hebraic-Judaic pisk.

MOSHCIACH Uber Alles!

[Loshon Hora]

8. Comment from Loshon Hora
Time December 27, 2010 at 11:19 AM

To me it seems the more you go on about this the more you
Sorry this is my first one still in the queue.
Were are up to 52 that was 8

[joeyd]

If you wanna read the Good only read Der Blat, Der yid. etc. For some of the Bad, VIN and for the ugly, Failed Messiah. Shmarya you're next haha

[MARK MEYER APPEL]

SHAME ON YOU RABBI RIVLIN

we all know that the ban on vos is neis is about one thing and one thing only.his coverage of a trend of sex abuse in the CHAREDI COMMUNITY.i think his coverage was fair as i was even upset he did not write about the boro park event by the jewish board that was attended bt many rabbonim.
we advocates are now beginning to write off theese rabbonim as infidels that do not give a damm about our kids being molested;
TALK IS CHEAP while the noviminsker rebbe cries at the convention for 3 minutes about how much he cares and he does....he still can not find time to distrbute packets of information thas his own moetses approved to be sent to yeshivas,HE THEN HAD RABBI TWERSKY WATER DOWN HIS REMARKS IN A LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF THE JEWISH PRESS,,,,, perfidy it is'
and in case you think i am a rebel i devoted my whole life to help mosdos hatora including satmar.
you rivlin and ure rabbis will go down in history as destroyers of yiddishkeit in america as the lubavitcher rebbee called them machrevai torah.if they really care let them approve fingerprinting in yeshiva staff and raise monies for aguda backed groups like our our place mask sacred lives i allready contributed my humble share and saw rabbi zweibel appear and pretend it was his doing
rabbi rivlin let us debate on zev brenner sat nite THE COMMUNITY DOES NOT HAVE ANY RESPECT NOR DO THEY CARE ABOUT A BLACMAILING SCHEME OF REPORTING THE TRUTH
what a sad day in jewry it is.

we will prevail with our mission withe help of our rebona shel olim

[Common sense]

The issue with VIN isn't the stories they post. They are providing a service to us by letting us know about the drek that occurs in Orthodoxy-what's wrong with that?
The issue, however, isnt the stories-it's the comments that are constantly repeated by trolls and d bag frummies who don't have anything better to do than make asses of the frum community by perpetuating stereotypes and giving good reason for much antisemitism. The site doesn't need to be shut down-it's the comments section that does. Do these cock sucking morons not realize that the articles posted can be found via google news, if you put in a search? This means the comments also are free for all to see. Not the best idea to have a site claim to represent the Torah community and publish many comments made, which poorly reflect the frum community. The Rabbanim must not like to face reality, so they want to ban the whole site and blame VIN for this-wake up Rabbinical leaders-these are your flock. They are the issue not VIN. Stop covering shit up and deflecting blame. Face facts and clean up the mess of your people.

[moshe g]

I am amainstream orthodox jew living in boro park. again the so called gadilim spoke. They are self made gedolim by their pr machine. There only goal is that the average person should not know what they are doing andto silence people who are unto them.They and their people are only interested in having orthodox frum people subservient to them.

There is god reason why most chasidic people do not belong to any sect. They see thru these gadolim (rabbonim) and know that they are phoney.

[benji gross]

It is true that despite these gedolim keep on saying that the internet should not be used, many and probably most orthodox jews use it.
The internet keeps the gadolin in check. It does not allow them to do what they want since everything is reported.

Keep up the good work.

[steve]

AL JAZEERA STRIKES AGAIN! VIN should list some of the laughable posts by Matzav, like the one about child murderer Vallis, or the numerous propaganda articles defending SMR.

[steve]

Of course our biggest problems are the blogs and the singers. These need kol korehs and our immediate attention. Child molesters? Nah, we'll keep having "meetings" and we will "acknowledge" the victims, and that's more than enough. No need for any kol korehs or chas v'shalom to urge victims to go to the police.

[effie]

They can't make the genie go back into the bottle. Ban away but it won't stop people from reading the internet or participating in online discussions.

[corn popper]

Just curious, when DO the laws of Loshon Hora apply, and to whom?

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Great work, Shmaryah!

Mainstream Jewish reporting was designed to be free of gossip, rumors and allegations" – Matzav.com.

Yes, it most certainly was.
It was no less spun on the looms of gods...

lol. it is all so pathetic....

[Gevalt!]

does anyone for even a moment think that vin, matzov, yeshiva world and others dont all fight for $ over ads...or that they dont each work their own marketing stategies to increase viewer hits...its all a big game...this matzav article is just another chess move to try and get more of a marketshare of the eyes/hearts of online jews which translates into more hits and therefore more $$$ by way of ads.

And, it is no different by many of the rabbonim...it comes down to keeping the $$$ rolling in for their yeshiva, kollels, org's etc...

The underlying source and main push of the kol koreh is not just an attempt of gedolylim to stop people from reading loshon horah...the source is that all of the articles online undermine their legitimacy and their ability to 1. make money and 2. retain power in their respective communities by way of kovad. all of the web sites that were 'banned' undermine points #1 and #2 above.

All matzov is doing here by running this post/commentary is making an attempt to reframe and reposition itself as the "real frum website" as opposed to the others...

why? why should they care? because of kavod a hotorah? please, spare me. they are working to reposition themselves for reasons #1 and #2 above. If they are aligned with the rabbis/yeshivas/orgs/kollels etc..then they can become the spokes-hole for them...to continue spewing additional marketing and propganda to keep the money and kovid from decreasing...Matzov benefits by tagging along for the ride...and by being viewed as a 'team player' by the powers that be...

the reality is that besides for the few independent free thinkers on this site and a few that are still in the closet - most of the flock will just role with it...they could care less about all this...and will just surf the web to the main 'frum' website that everyone else reads or is talking about...

it really is very unfortunate...

note: i do not hold responsible the true tzadikkim who vomit from all of this...indeed, there are still a few true tzadikkim out there...they are hard to find...but they do exist. I have met them...they are the real deal...i hold reposponsible the marketing teams, the fundraisers for all of these institutions and organizations, the power hungry nobodys who are employed by these older rabbonim/instituions to handle financial affairs (under the guise so that the tzaddikim can really focus on torah) and who view a drop of bad publicity (i.e. scandels, and other dirty laundry) as a direct threat to their marketshare to control local neighborhoods.

you can see all of this being played out before your eyes - punch by punch- if you check out www.lukeford.net right now and see how this is being played out w OU,local rabbonim in CA and a case re ownerships of torahs...who the real owner of the disputed torah is sidesteps the larger story of struggle of power/kavod/control/$ that is being played out in that arena in the local CA area...as it is also being played out above in the gedoylim/VIN ban...

the torah is true...the mitzvahs are true...but somewhere in the pipeline from Har Sinai to today, the leadership (tzaddikim aside) have become corrupted and mafia like in their pursuit of money, power and kovad.

it should also be noted, for those of you who have not caught on yet to what is really happening behind the scenes with all of the rabbonim/organizations, yeshivas etc...is that the internal fighting amongst each other (again regarding $$$ and kavod and control) is beyond words...they all fight for donors, backstab each other whenever they can and knock each others place at the first opportunity...trust me. I know. Do you think for a moment when you go to a wedding and you look at the "rabbi table" they are talking in learning...PLEASE! they are comparing notes on donations and donors...they are talking loshon harah about the differnt scandels within their neighborhood and comparing notes on how they handled differnt affairs...trust me. i know. people are human...and many of the above mentioned people have very very large budgets and need to collect a bucket of money each month in a very tight economy...everyone is fighting over the same fishies in the pond...its just the way it is...

If you are a threat to their ability to raise money or if you are accommplishing more than they are on a community level, they will bury you in a second if they can. and not lose a wink of sleep over it. they will bad mouth you, your appraoch or hashkafas or whatever else they can to increase the $ to them and to make sure that they dont lose kavod & marketshare in their communities.

they have only briefly aligned on this kol koreh - and other similar kol korehs because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

klal yisroel needs a yeshua asap. all i can say is that each person needs to be mispallel on his/her own level to create their own personal relationship w Hashem and to try to do the right thing day to day and let all of this other riff raff fall to the side. we can vent or opinionate all we want in these posts or in blogs..but when we all stand one day to be judged, we only need to know that we did the best we could under our personal circumstances to bring more kvod shmayim to the world...

all of the other corrupted ones who destroyed families, ruined peoples business or abused their power within their communities will need to answer.

Hashem yerachem.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

A "Gadol" can only be consider an Emes "Gadol" if his peni exceeds 10 inches in godol and 3.275 inches in girth.

[yidandahalf]

Is the Satmar behind Rubash-in the initiator of the VIN ban?

[corn popper]

MM3,
Grow up little potty mouth

[talking stam]

oh boy. i agree with you, the inmates are running the asylum.
i cannot believe matzav printed this article. i have to post my response to it here, because they like to censure my comments...
i don't blame the rabbanim for banning vosizneias. every day they write about another rabbi arrested for fraud, or arrested for molesting young boys, even at times convicted of incest with his own children! and we are talking about well respected rabbis! it is truely a chillul hashem, and i cannot blame these rabbis from banning people from reading a site that publishes these crazy stories.

[Steve]

The gedolim by and large assured the Internet. Frankly, I understand that and have no problem with that edict. My question then is who sanctioned MATZAY. I asked this very question in a post and of course they buried it.

[seymour]

the fake gedoleim are seeing their stranglehold on the ultra orthodox diminish before their eyes and they are afraid it will evaporate.

since when can someone not question godel, the whole talmuld is questioning each other on their views.

shame of this dud who wrote the article

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

I Am Looking For Comments Censored By Matzav About the Ban on VIN

I am looking for comments offered to Matzav.com in their article,Harry Maryles, Have You No Shame? by Rabbi Gavriel Rivlin. The article is a rant defending the kol koreh against VIN. I am interested in showing the kind of perfectly reasonable respectful comments that they routinely censor. So the ground rules are: Don't submit it here unless you tried to submit it there.

All of you out there, keep a copy of anything you submit (and try to record date and time). I have been doing it for a while and keep doing it. Periodically I check back to find which one's made it through. I even experiment with taming them a little.

Anyways, readers start sending them in. I want to show the world what is excluded. Then others can make their own judgments about whether the moderation is justifiable or just self-serving.

http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/i-am-looking-for-comments-censored-by-matzav-about-the-ban-on-vin/

[yidandahalf]

Good thread.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

corn popper,

When the "Rabbis" in question are have done tzuvah and are worthy of being called Rabbis be rest assured I will cease and desist long before you do.

Until then, keep reading the posts and keep up the good work!

[Loshon Hora]

What does gedolim mean? I know in hilchos beis hakiseih there are gedolim & ktanim, but what do they have to do with the price of cheese.
After Gedolim & even every tipah [drop] of ktanim one is required to recite asher yotzar.

[Critical minyan]

What if vin, in a fit of pr brilliance, banned itself? Whar if the emperor has no clothes and all the gedolim are naked?

[jancsipista]

mostly the gedolim are megalomaniacs or robots who are being like puppets manipulated by their own people since his livelihood depends on them what nerve to bestow on them g-d like status they think they will get away with anything they do since according to them they are infallible its all a mind game to theese so called self rightous rabbis

[cheif doofis]

One question. How many of these so called "Gedolim" ever went on to VIN, thi sblog, Harry Maryles, etc. etc. All THEY are doing, when they criticise or forbid any web site, is acccepting Lashon Hara. Do you think these Hassidic and Yeshivish "leaders" really know what is contained herein?

[ah-pee-chorus]

why should anyone have any respect for todays "gedolim" ? did they score highest on a test which measured their intelligence, their knowledge of the torah and their familiarity with the real world in which their rulings would be required? and is this combined with a requirement that they be honest, moral, ethical people?

or.......did most "gedolim" become "gedolim" by winning the DNA lottery in being born a son of a "gadol"? or by marrying into the family of a "gadol" ?

if the latter, they deserve no more respect than the guy next door. and in either case unless one believes they are god, they should be subject to the same criticism and scrutiny with which we subject leaders in other fields. the greatest mathemeticians, physicists etc... do not require that we accept everything they say simply because they said it. what makes them great in their fields is that when their theories are put to the test, they survive on their merits. if these are in fact "gedolim", it should be self-evident from the brilliance of their words. if its not, as is the case with so many of the idiocies which come out of the mouths of todays excuse for "gedolim", well then maybe the emperor has no clothes.
respect is EARNED, not DECREED. yet even this is beyond them..

[soso]

Is Matzav Chabad, since they are so big on Rubashkin?

[A E ANDERSON]

Number One, to Rivlin: If you don't like, don't read it. Instead, go recite Psalms, re-tie your ritual fringes, explicate a shevere Maharasha, re-enact Sheviras Hakaylim.

Number Two, to the aptly named Gedoylim: (Don't forget asher yotser): Use your vaunted brains to imagine what your fatwas and pashkvilin sound like when rendered into simple, standard English: corny, whacky pronouncements from a bunch of dufuses and looney-tunes! All a reporter need do is literally render the archaic Hebrew and Aramaic and you're instantly transformed from respected rabbis into strange cult leaders in a bad Monty Python sketch, no matter how valid or wise your intended message.

If your message cannot withstand the simple test of surviving translation into standard English without casting the authors as crazed medieval clerics or latter-day Wahhabis, consider keeping pen in pocket until something truly important comes along.

"Artscroll" English is not standard English.

[Dave]

I remember remarking some time ago to some family members who are frummer than I, that a lot of these Haredim are like pale Ayatollahs. Unfortunately it's turning out to be true.
Gevalt! Excellent post.

[jancsipista]

ah-pee-chorus- fantastic piece you wrote nothing but the whole truth beutiful

[Shmarya]

Is Matzav Chabad, since they are so big on Rubashkin?

Posted by: soso | December 27, 2010 at 07:02 PM

No.

[ah-pee-chorus]

thanks much, jancsipista .

[j]

RABBI RIVLin AKA PINNY LIP-SHITZ

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

I am wondering if J is right about Rabbi Rivlin being Pinny Lipshitz:

I have just posted about the questionable authenticity of Rabbi Gavriel Rivlin. He does not seem to exist, except perhaps in Chelm.

http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/matzav-gavriel-rivlin-vosizneias-ban-vin/

[soso]

Thank you for the answer.

Back in it's time, I wrote a few comments on Rubashkin, and they were all censored.

That's why I stopped going to Matzav: they were not interested in the truth.

[Abracadabra]

Yerachmiel - I agree that this "Rabbi Rivlin" piece has a similar long-winded ring to it as Pinny Lipshitz' writings.

And why are you bothering wasting your time with evidence that Matzav censors and doesn't post reasonable comments? They themselves say they censor and limit the comments! Of course they have an agenda - they state so explicitly! Even VIN wont print lots of my comments.

The only major reporting website that doesn't censor is FailedMessiah. Unless you get booted due to not adhering to the clear commenting rules, you're free to write whatever you want from whatever standpoint you want. Freedom of Speech as it's meant to be practiced.

[Abracadabra]

I would ask this "Rabbi Rivlin" why loshon hara only applies to badmouthing HIS people, and not to badmouthing Rabbi Harry Maryles, Zev Brenner, Larry Gordon or Rabbi Yair Hoffman?

What a pathetic piece of hypocricy!

Oh, and just in case you didn't know, Rabbi Rivlin (or whoever you are) "Gedolim" are human and are ALLOWED by our Torah to be questioned. Even Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote in his piskei halachah that if his explanations don't make sense, you need not follow them. But maybe you have another Torah, a new testament perhaps?

[WoolSilkCotton]

++ah-pee-chorus | December 27, 2010 at 06:46 PM ++

Agreed. It is particularly galling that they give themselves the title 'gedolim', i.e. Great Ones, as well as granting themselves infallibility.

And the sheeple just go along, because questioning any frumme authority is tantamount to sacrilege.

[Glatt some questions]

The ironic thing is that by banning VIN, they will actually help increase traffic to the site. And putting aside the question of whether the ban should have been issued, you'd think the gedolim would have learned by now that bans don't work (Lipa, Slifkin, etc.).

Interesting that Rivlin castigates Maryles for not calling the gedolim who signed the ban befoere speaking out, yet feels our gedolim had no responsibility to speak to the owners of VIN before issuing a ban that if followed would effectively put the website out of business.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Even in classic Monarchical systems, there is a concept that a King rules by the consent of the governed. This is *definitely* true of Jewish kings, I presume it is embedded in all Monarchies. The reason is clear: if the King does not have consent he is no long King but a Dictator. In the case of Democracies, it goes without saying that consent is necessary. So how where is the consent now? You see in the Gemorah, how Rabbis would introduce decrees, but if the masses didn't take to it, it was allowed to fall by the wayside. (Scholar: please elaborate on this. I'm talking about Shemen Yisrael and rulings like that). In any event have we gotton more authoritarian? How did that happen? How are the authorities responsive? or are they isolated? I strongly emphasize: please conduct this conversation with politeness or dignity because we do not wish to bring a ban on this website.

[Shmarya]

In any event have we gotton more authoritarian? How did that happen? How are the authorities responsive? or are they isolated?

Or, perhaps, the "authorities" are largely thugs, thieves, and pretenders.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

and the publication of a report condemning a respected Monsey rov who stood up for kedushas Yisroel.

Is he defending Tropper the shtuper forcing conversions candidates to have sex with him, his wife, Zilber and Amir ?