Video: Gay Orthodox Jews

A new short film tells the story of gay Orthodox Jews.

 

[Hat Tip: Marc.]

Comments

[ox]

oxymoron

[critical_minyan]

this video is so sad, but the sadder thing is that these are the happy ones. for each person in this video, there are probably 20, that are suffering in silence.

[Ben Dover]

ooooooooohgaaaaaah

[critical_minyan]

actually its not sad, just the beginning is. its beautiful.

[jake]

beautifull, poigniant, powerfull saddening powerfull story that needs to be told.

[Loshon Hora]

A Tshuva from R' Moshe against gay actions, not against the feeling possibly.
A letter of chizuk from R' Aaron Feldman [Baltimore] to a gay bochur.
Some gay bochurim in chareidi community are not realy gay, a single sex society makes them have urges to other bochurim who look femanine, their real urge is a girl, they just don't see them.
Being gay doesn't mean you have no urge for women, you may have both.
I know a man of 80 who has 5 children more than 30 grandchildren & who knows how many great grandchildren? He says he was never in his life turned on by a lady, although I have never delved his tricks he was married over 50 years to one spouse.
I advise you to still try & get married & have a family, you look like nice people, with worped yetzer horas.
No Rabbi could allow intimacy with another man. Being potant will put you between a rock & a hard place. I feel very sorry for you.
I am sure you want kids & a family, I hope you still have one.

[Yankel Yissachar]

A few questions immiedately come to mind: 1) who makes kiddush in the non traditional couple? 2) does anyone say she'lo asanee isha? 3) Where does a transgender sit in a datai shul? 4) For a questionable mohel, metzitza shel peh is inadvisable. 5) How can one be sure that the mikveh lady is, in fact, a lady? Please, talk amongst yourselves. Ms. Apikoros, I delivered the, err, package to your wife. Much obliged.

[ah-pee-chorus]

these young men seem like wonderful human beings. it's a disgrace that due to books written thousands of years ago gays are discriminated against, attacked, bullied, and occasionally put to death for the 'crime' of being attracted to their own sex. that alone is evidence of the human authorship of these books. all forms of fundamentalist religion are divisive and dangerous, including orthodox judaism.
gays should not look for acceptance within an ortho world that helps further these barbaric beliefs. it is akin to a jew looking for acceptance from a group of nazis that while despising jews , doesnt advocate their actual murders.
to quote steven weinberg, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

[Loshon Hora]

Shmaryahooo!
I heard you are single I wanted to see a video of you I watched over & over & you never came out of the closet.
If so I may have a shiduch for you.

[the usual chaim]

"I know a man of 80 who has 5 children more than 30 grandchildren & who knows how many great grandchildren? He says he was never in his life turned on by a lady"

that does not mean he is happy. also does not mean he does not have some psychological or physiological condition affecting his libido and having nothing to do with homosexuality. Also does not mean that the man doesnt go on the D-low. such a person is not a useful example.

the problem with rabbis like this is that they have no concept of what the people they are writing to are actually going through and, so, give useless advise

[Neandershort]

http://neandershort.blogspot.com/2010/10/not-in-our-name-gay-bashing-and.html

[Taking the High Road]

After watching this clip all I can say is thank God, "Shelo Asani Gay."

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Live And Let Live

Gay Hebraic-Judaic men have circumcised shmocks just like the pair of convicted criminal elements "Rabbi" Rubashkin and "Rabbi" Uncle Milty.

But unlike the bearded felons who defecated on the Torah, Geh-moi-reh, and kehlas yisrooooel these guy fornicators did not break the laws of the land.

They committed no crimes.

They work and pay taxes with the exception of Haredi Homosexualists but of course.

Moschiach Uber Alles!

[Monsey Hocker]

I guess that closet is overcrowded.

[Monsey Hocker]

MM3, these feigelehs didn't get the memo, the anus is not self-lubricating, proving the intent of the Maker as an outbound conveyance, not to mention an area high in fecal content. The vaginismus majora, and labial minoris clitoris, on the other hand is a party, not to mention a heck of a lot more inviting than a tuchus will ever be. The rectalimus stankus is no place for a makom habris to explore. Maybe we can start collecting so they can get their daddy issues resolved and start bangin' broads like us normal folk.

[Jakes]

Very brave of them to come forward like this. I wish them well.

For those saying they just force themselves to marry women, ask yourselves if you would want a gay son-in-law, incapable of loving your daughter.

One thing I would be interested in hearing, and I realize this was not the intention of the video, is their plans for the future. If they remain frum, do they plan on marrying? Adopting children? Etc.

[antigay]

sick!

[Mr. Apikoros]

Yankel with the Microscopic Wankel:

My wife couldn't find your "package." She didn't have her electron microscope with her.

[LOS ANGELES JEWS AGAINST GAYS]

GAY PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE NEED TO BE STONED TO DEATH

[Shmarya]

GAY PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE NEED TO BE STONED TO DEATH

So do Shabbat violators. Killed any of those lately?

[ah-pee-chorus]

++GAY PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE NEED TO BE STONED TO DEATH++

you are correct, and that is why moral people need to recognize the barbarism of the authors and reject it as anything more than an historical remnant of our superstitious and ignorant ancestors.

[Jakes]

GAY PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE NEED TO BE STONED TO DEATH

Posted by: LOS ANGELES JEWS AGAINST GAYS

No they don't. Being gay alone is not against Torah. You're talking about anal sex.

As Shmarya points out, Shabbos desecrators deserve the same punishment. I'm sure you've witnessed many Jews violating Shabbos but I doubt you've witnessed many engaging in anal sex. So if you advocate stoning those you merely suspect of violating Torah because they're gay, I can only imagine what you do to those you have actually seen violate Shabbos...

[harold]

How sad to be living on the fringe, never being TRULY accepted. Here they are being exalted only because what they do flies in the face of the torah. How they can remain orthodox is simply beyond me.

[tinok]

tinokim she nishbeu

[ah-pee-chorus]

++How sad to be living on the fringe, never being TRULY accepted++

how sad that you are a card carrying member of a group which will never accept them. you are a disgraceful human.

[IH]

Harold -- may you live long enough to discover one of your grandchildren is gay. Then you will regret all this shtut you post.

Or, be consistent, and make the same comment about every other sinning Jew ("what they do flies in the face of the torah. How they can remain orthodox is simply beyond me").

[Dave]

I agree with Harold.

[IH]

And with Pastor Fred Phelps too, I imagine.

[Adam Neira]

There is no gay gene. People can rationalise their actions, identity and sexual preferences all they like but if they are unaware of their conditioning they are painting in the dark. It is fascinating to see in this day and age how people are assembling different parts of their identity from choices they have made from the supermarket shelf of life.
People need a sense of belonging, mission and purpose which is fine. The devil is in the detail.

Status anxiety is a real problem for many people. The unresolved issues of childhood whereby the individual craves acceptance, recognition and connection carry on to adulthood. One should derive value, purpose and strength in discovering what G-d expects of them. Too many people define themselves by what other's expect of them. This dynamic can act as a vortex whereby groupthink reduces one's hopes, ambitions and sense of self-value and deflates them to the lowest common denominator. The Jews have a special divine mission. It is easy to forget this. The mission frightens, liberates, energises, deflates and confuses. In a kaleidoscopic world it is often hard to sort the priorities and to focus. Taking ownership is the key. The following quote is apt...

"We forfeit three-fourths of ourselves to be like other people."

- Arthur Schopenhauer

[IH]

We've seen you pose this strawman you then cut down with psychobabble before, Adam.

What are you trying to communicate, in plain English please?

[x]

Another piece of propaganda, like that sham trembling movie. Designed to evoke sympathy, but doesn't address the core issues about toeivah.

Feh.

[IH]

Eating treif is also toeivah, X. Another homophobic am ha'aretz -- feh!

[Loshon Hora]

See www.abominations.com
No it isn't an Orthodox Jewish site, but it explains what causes the Gay perversion, I won't take sides, but it is explained.
My question is these kids may have been sexualy abused by people of their own gender, before the time their memory dates back to. Sick as it is there are some very sick pervert perps out there.
This may have gone on a litle too long & caused the kid these perversive problems.
Hoelokim osoaoh es Haodom Yoshor. G-D made man straight.

[Loshon Hora]

Sorry!
www.aboms.com

[IH]

Incredible. Relying in fundamentalist Christians in reference to Halacha. Now that is perverted!

[IH]

Was that a joke, Loshon Hora? Or are you the joke?

[Hometown Postville]

Hey Hey they're ok!
Why wouldn't they be when pedophilia, fraud, and welfare abuse are accepted?
But I just have to ask.... what Bible are they reading? The Bible according to Satan????

[IH]

Since all the Bible scholars are emerging, a repeat post of what the Bible says:

The original word in scripture תּוֹעֵבָה (toevah) is a type of sin that is used to describe 3 behaviors in the Hebrew Bible:

1) male homosexual sex acts (Levit 18:25 & 20:13)
2) eating food that is not kosher (Deut 14:3)
3) a man remarrying his 1st wife once she has been divorced or widowed by a 2nd husband (Deut 24:1-4).

If you believe that toevah = immoral, then eating treif or the re-marriage scenario in (3) is equally immoral.

[ah-pee-chorus]

adam- the science on whether there is a genetic component is inconclusive and as yet undetermined. but that is just a piece of the puzzle. they have also not found a specific gene which causes some men to only be attracted to obese women.or blondes. does that make those attractions something which should be scorned? or considered an abomination? or grounds for death? homosexuality is seen in many animals in nature. that is strong evidence for gayness not merely being a choice. common sense also suggests otherwise. who would choose to be shunned, beaten , etc...while limiting their potential partners by 90 percent?

and the rambam says the halacha is that while homosexual adults are to be put to death provided the right conditions are met, the HOMOSEXUAL RAPE OF A CHILD UNDER 9 YEARS OLD IS NOT PROHIBITED!!!
he adds that while both the rapist and the child victim are 'p'turin' , it is appropriate that a beis din should impose a whipping on the man.
so this same act of gay sex requires two consenting adults to be put to death,while no torah punishment is imposed on an adult male who rapes a little boy.
and this is your source of morality??!!!

[ah-pee-chorus]

BTW , the source for these halachas is the mishneh torah-hilchos issuray bee'ah- 1:14

[Dave]

I think the Haredi claim that all the mitzvot are equally important has backfired on them, in this case.

[Former Postvillian]

So let me start by saying, I don't "hate" them or have a "phobia" of them. But I don't think it should be "discriminating" if you don't hire someone because it makes others feel uncomfortable.

I once had a female employee ask me not to hire a female applicant who had made numerous passes at her at a previous job they had worked together. So does that make me a criminal now? Should I get to go hang out with Sholom now?

What these people do in their bedrooms is their business, not mine, and I'd like to keep it that way. But my problem is they refuse to stay in the closet. Their agenda is to come out and force me to except their sexual perversion, or I'm the sick one!?!

By forcing their special interest on society, their sexuality is effecting us all. I once had my 5 year old son ask me "Abba, how can a man be married to a man?"

I think it is immoral, unnatural, and does not leave a positive impact on our society as a whole. Video's like this, designed to paint these homo's as innocent victims really pisses me off. It's us straight, normal people who are now being victimized!

So go ahead all of you socialist liberals, how many names can you call me?

[IH]

You can believe in whatever nonsense you want. My issue is with people who claim to justify these beliefs on the basis of the word תּוֹעֵבָה (toevah).

You may want to reflect on the fact that these same arguments were made previously against Jews, but that is only for the benefit of your child who will one day have to confront the nonsense his Abba taught him.

[IH]

Out of curiousity, though, how precisely are you being victimized -- your word -- by what was said on this video?

[ah-pee-chorus]

+++I don't think it should be "discriminating" if you don't hire someone because it makes others feel uncomfortable. +++

so if people decide not to hire any jews because it makes others uncomfortable that should also not be considered discrimination?

your story involved a woman who had made numerous passes at another woman. this is unprofessional and possibly harrassing behavior REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT WAS A HETERO OR HOMO. a ridiculous point. if the lesbian had not made unwanted advances , then it would indeed be discrimination not to hire her merely because she is gay.

++my problem is they refuse to stay in the closet. Their agenda is to come out and force me to except their sexual perversion, or I'm the sick one!?! ++

are you equally troubled by heteros who come out in the open ? they dont want you to be gay. they accept the 'agenda' that most people have to mate with the opposite sex. and yes, you are morally sick. anyone who calls it a perversion is.

++ I once had my 5 year old son ask me "Abba, how can a man be married to a man+++

i guess the truth never entered your mind. tell him that some men like other men more than women. do you fear this may lead him to be a homosexual ? when he finds out that some men marry black,brown, and non-jewish women he will be just as likely to be damaged. you better hide all evidence of non=jewish people.

++ think it is immoral, unnatural, and does not leave a positive impact on our society as a whole. Video's like this, designed to paint these homo's as innocent victims really pisses me off. It's us straight, normal people who are now being victimized!++

i think you are immoral. have you conducted or read any studies supporting your assertion regarding their impact on society? quite the opposite is the case.
you are not being victimized. you are the victimizer.

[Monsey Hocker]

I have no respect for people who damage their sphincter tone to such a degree that they can no longer flatulate with the requisite sounds that warn innocents of the imminent stench. Anyone so brazen as to go to such a degree to enable themselves to be a silent but deadly flatulator cannot be trusted. They fart silently as a result of their pounded sphincter and then leave without taking responsibility or worse, they blame others. FEH!

[IH]

Ah, now we're talking scientific methodology! You has best patent this Doppler Radar type system that can out receivers of anal sex, Monsey Hocker, before someone steals your idea.

[Former Postvillian]

Did I say I was being victimized by anything said in the video? No.

But since I have to spell it out for you; it's the purpose of the video. That we as a society and more specifically now "Orthodox Jews" should be excepting of gays.

Gay and lesbian special interest groups are using things such as this video to further their causes and impede on the rights and opinions of others. Making us "haters", "homophobes", "racist", "intolerant" etc.

[IH]

God have mercy on your child, Former Postvillian.

[Former Postvillian]

ah-pee-chorus, your clearly a liberal and I'm not going to take the time to respond to your stupidity, we'll never agree.

But you certainly didn't disappoint.

[Former Postvillian]

I don't know what the big surprise is, we have know there are "Gay Orthodox Jews" for some time now.

For instance, check out all the "Rabbi" pedophiles on this site!

Or is that to old-fashion and I should be more understanding of pedophiles?

[Adam Neira]

To ah-pee-chorus,

Please do not extrapolate from my comments. You have jumped from a discussion about whether there is a gay gene to the subject of child sexual abuse and the appropriate punishment. Thinking you are a genius at reading between the lines just might see yourself get killed by the oncoming train if you don’t lift your head up. Parts of the Talmud and other derivative writings on CSA are wrong and downright sick. Nowhere in the last ten years or with anyone I have ever met have I defended those archaic and satanic parts of the Talmud and other interpreter’s writings. The Rambam got many, many things right but not everything. Do not try and tar me with a dark brush. We should stick to the article's point, nu ? (Yes I am guilty of drifting off track on some of these articles, but there is a method to my madness. I bring supporting evidence etc. to bolster my case.) If an open forum was called and I needed to articulate my findings, evidence, belief and interpretation on major points I would be happy to do so. If you want to go off on a tangent, I’m happy to oblige, but the internet has its limits, I'm not the fastest typist in the world and I have an important meeting in one hour and thirty nine minutes with one of the wisest and most righteous people I know. So sorry, must skip this little tête-à-tête.

Shabbat Shalom !

[ah-pee-chorus]

Former Postvillian = running from the truth is a tried and true method. i'm quite sure you have no idea what the 'purpose' of the video is.
but one thing we agree on. Orthodox Jews should not be excepting of gays. but gays should run as far away as possible from ortho jews and all should detest their use of antique books as their guide to morality. those who are not constrained to the (a)moral whims of late bronze age men have fortunately been able to advance to where women have equal rights and the right to vote, slavery is outlawed, and homosexuals are treated by many as all human beings are. but you are stuck in a time when women are your property , slavery is permitted, killing animals in order to burn them is great, and gays should be given the death penalty.you can also throw in a few muslim 'honor' killings of their daughters. the sad thing is that you. and all modern orths and haredim are doomed to always be stuck in this very place. this is a constant weight on the shoulders of the rest of the world striving for something better.

[Former Postvillian]

The perfect liberal arguement, since I disagree with you on the morality of homosexuality:
I am running from the truth.
I live in the Bronze Age.
I support slavery.
I believe women are property.
I believe women should not be allowed to vote.
And I believe homosexuals should get the death penality!

I think you've been watching a bit to much MSNBC there buddy.

[Former Postvillian]

And just for the record, I am not a religious frummy. That whole stoning on the sabbath/eating trief thing, I'd be in big trouble.

[Sarah]

Wow! Inexpressibly beautiful.
Some time after I left my Chabad community, looking for volunteer work as an amateur filmmaker, I volunteered for a while at a Gay community TV station in Melbourne called Bent TV.
After about four months I had to leave.
After growing up among people who's hearts are corrupted and surround themselves with lies, in all seriousness, I just could not handle the raw beauty of their courage.

[Abracadabra]

Gay and lesbian special interest groups are using things such as this video to further their causes and impede on the rights and opinions of others.

What are "their causes"?

How do they "impede on your rights" exactly?

They want to live their lives without being discriminated against. They want to be able to get a health insurance plan for a couple which would cover their comitted partner as it would cover a spouse. They want to be able to file a tax return with their comitted partner as they would with a spouse. Are these such terrible causes? Are these "impeding your rights"?

And if you don't want to hire someone because they are black because "that just makes you uncomfortable" it is against the law. Same goes for if you don't want to hire someone because they are a woman (unless the job specifically needs a man for whatever reason), or because they are Hispanic or because they are pregnant. These were discriminations that were fought against and had to be overcome in their day. It was just 90 short years ago when women were given the right to vote in the USA. Women rallying for their right to vote were jailed and beaten by the government and police forces. At the time (1900-1920) men thought it was crazy for women to be "imposing" this craziness on society for women to have an equal right to cast their own vote.

Gays want similar non-discrimination laws. It's not too much to ask for in my opinion.

And those gays that get "in-your-face" about it do so simply because they feel that other, quieter means of promoting change have not worked for them.

Read up on women's sufferage, and put in the word "Black" or "Gay" and you'll see little difference.

And read everything you yourself wrote and substitute the word "Gay" for "Jew" and you'll have some good Anti-Semitic propoganda there.

Also - the Jewish obsession with gay being evil comes straight from the influence of Christianity and of Jews living in Christian nations, with Christian culture and under Christian rule for so many years. The Torah and halacha treats chillul Shabbos the same way they do gay sex acts. Having gay "attractions" is treated no different from having chillul Shabbos "attractions" or non-kosher food "attractions".

But Christianity can't deal with sex altogether - Jesus was born to a virgin (no sex), priests and nuns are celibate (no sex), and all humans are "born in sin" because they are a product of sex, and therefore only the Christian savoir can fix that being-born-in-sin problem... etc. Christianity is so obsessed with sex as taboo and those attitudes seeped into Judaism.

Judaism celebrates sex - hence the huge simcha of a wedding. Mikvah is a mitzvah, a good thing, not a post-sex cleansing, but a pre-sex preparing for something holy and good. Sex is a mitzvah, and is celebrated in Jewish life.

(BTW - Ditto for Muslim's attitude towards sex. Islam sees women as sources of evil because they turn men on.)

Nobody gets bent-out-of-shape about chillul Shabbos or eating non-kosher fish. Same should be the attitude for gays. It's just another fact of life. Some Jews don't keep Shabbos. Some Jews eat shellfish. Some Jews are gay.

Jews are not Christians and shouldn't be taking on Christian attitudes towards gays or gayness which are based on Christian attitudes towards sex.

[WoolSilkCotton]

You are less likely to be scammed, cheated, lied to, conned, or robbed by a gay man than by a frummer. Some religion, huh?

[Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

This video is SO gross, it's literally beyond the scope of mere words. Promoting gayness is the root of every transgression against humanity, The first mitzvah in the torah is Priya Yeruva . If you don't have children my family name will die, gays will never ever have biological children together and the world will end, it will be in ruin . What is a gay guys answer for this question? No one will ever sway me on this topic of being gay the fact will remain that it is a transgression against the laws of God its a sin, one of the sins in the torah if you like it or not, its there for all to see. How about if gays stamp on their foreheads that they are gay? Let the whole world know how proud they are and what a great idiot and diviant I am and shulem al yisroel. Enough with this non-sense

[Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

Shmarya put on a clear disclaimer that this video is just for informational purposes on this blog, and your not promoting it

[harold]

Harold -- may you live long enough to discover one of your grandchildren is gay. Then you will regret all this shtut you post.

You have got to be kidding. These posts disappear into the world of "Older" within a few days never to be read again. You guys take these postings WAY too seriously. As I have said in the past, we are a bunch of nobodies hiding behind "masks" simply schmoozing and killing some time. Nobody takes seriously what the peanut gallery has to say. We a much too crass uncouth low class group of people for anyone of importance to take notice of. So lighten up and have a good time letting off some steam - it is therapeutic.

By the way, one of the advantages of hiding behind a mask is to give one the freedom to say things that one does not even believe in so what I say does not always mean that this is what I believe.

[OMG]

Posted by: Former Postvillian | November 11, 2010 at 11:08 PM

You wrote "By forcing their special interest on society, their sexuality is effecting us all. I once had my 5 year old son ask me "Abba, how can a man be married to a man?"
Are you telling us that your 5 years old understands that heterosexual marriage = sexual conduct. If the story is true, that tells us that you have perverted your 5 year old.

[Shmarya]

By the way, one of the advantages of hiding behind a mask is to give one the freedom to say things that one does not even believe in so what I say does not always mean that this is what I believe.

Posted by: harold | November 12, 2010 at 06:40 AM

In other words, 'harold,' the haredi Jew, the sometimes-Chabad Jew, thinks it's okay to lie.

If anyone ever had any doubt about how amoral 'harold' is, this should remove it.

[IH]

Harold -- I guess when its thrown back in your face, you don't find it as entertaining. Maybe you should look at yourself with mask on, in the mirror? Or, ask your daughter the med student what she thinks of your mask?

[IH]

Moshe Aron Kestenbaum -- so, childless heterosexual couples are also immoral?

And, let me guess, there is no such thing as a “barren women” – it’s all in her head.

BTW, family names for Ashkenazim only started around 1800.

[x]

As to the argument that other things are called toeivah in the Torah as well -

True, but the Torah in those cases doesn't say that they are capital crimes, as it does in this case. So clearly homosexual intercourse is a toeivah of much greater magnitude.

[Shmarya]

As to the argument that other things are called toeivah in the Torah as well -

True, but the Torah in those cases doesn't say that they are capital crimes, as it does in this case. So clearly homosexual intercourse is a toeivah of much greater magnitude.

And what about Shabbat violators? There are far more of them than there are gays and lesbians, and for the most part, gays and lesbians can't help what they are, but Shabbat violators can.

Why focus on homosexuals?

Could it be your simple homophobia?

[Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

SHMARY Two wrongs don't make one right

[harold]

In other words, 'harold,' the haredi Jew, the sometimes-Chabad Jew, thinks it's okay to lie.

If anyone ever had any doubt about how amoral 'harold' is, this should remove it.

If one writes a book and labels it as fiction then whatever is written should not be taken as truths. It is when one does not state the fictional nature of what one says then it can be called a lie. When H.G Well wrote the War of The World it was not a lie, it was a work of fiction, however when it was not clearly stated as such in the infamous radio broadcast of the book that so many people thought was the truth resulted in a panic to many listeners.

By virtue of putting on a "mask" one is declaring that what they say does not have to be the truth, and in my case my public statement that what I say should not be taken at face value, but merely be taken as a form of entertainment (which I have said repeatedly) means that what I say is a mixture of truth with fiction depending on what I perceive to be more entertaining and thought provoking.

For all you know I could be a self hating Reformed Jewish gay Ethiopian mamzer, with an intense hatred for Chabad, haredim, and the Orthodox. Then again I could be schizophrenic.

[IH]

Moshe Aron Kestenbaum: Sanhedrin 44a
“Even though he sinned, he is a Jew”.

[IH]

Harold -- you are doing yourself no favors. סייג לחוכמה שתיקה

[IH]

X, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Torah

I guess you can then order these by skila, srepha, hereg ve'chenek if this is the way you choose to prioritize your sins.

[Jewish Cynic]

Funny thing is one might think ortho should have an easier time dealing with the issue of people with homosexual desire than the secular world.
Ortho heterosexual sex is heavily restricted, restrictions on homosexual acts are an extension of that.
Hetero ortho are subject to strong urges they must control to avoid sin, telling someone they must avoid acts between the same sex would not seem to be draconian.

Didn't find the video "gross". It's a group of guys recounting how difficult it was to grow up "different".

Does raise some questions.
Sex was not mentioned in the video. Only same-sex attraction. The problems these guys had in school/camp were due to the way they dressed or spoke.

Does being homosexual make someone dress or speak in a particular way?

Is it wrong for a school to enforce a dress code? (it should be enforced uniformly).

If a gay guy expresses his attraction to a guy is it any more/less acceptable than a straight guy expressing his attraction to a woman he is forbidden (married, relative etc)?

Yet as Kestenbaum's reaction to the video indicates, there is a homophobia that goes beyond the torah's prohibition on that kind of sex.
Seems there are those who worry that being around a gay person will entice a straight person to engage in homosexual sex. I've been around a number of gays and never felt that urge. I've also smelled bacon and have to say it did trigger an urge. Seems to me homosexuality is different than most forbidden things. Either you have an urge for it or not (a bisexual would have an attraction to both). The only way for a gay man to entice a straight guy would require the gay guy to change his appearance to that of an attractive woman. The enticement would end once the dress comes off - long before a sex act.

On the other hand I understand ortho's discomfort with people openly announcing they're gay. "Gay" is associated with sex between men which is forbidden. Having a group of out of the closet ortho bacon eaters would also be rejected.
Maybe there needs to be a term for men not interested in hetro sex who don't have sex with other men.

[Jewish Cynic]

BTW Harold,
People use pseudonyms online so they can say what they really think without the people in their offline world knowing it.

Going online with statements you don't believe just to stir things up is a form of trolling and a waste of time and bandwidth.

(It is ok to state "I don't believe this, but what do you think of...")

[x]

Shabbat violation is not referred to as toeivah.

Homosexual intercourse is the only thing that is called toeivah and has that severe penalty. So it clearly is considered by the Torah to be a much greater offense.

[IH]

Err, X, have you ever studied Talmud or post-Talmudic rabbinic discourse?

[IH]

Let me ask the question a different way, X:

I am not as learned as some other contributors, but as it happens I am learning part of Masechet Sanhedrin at present (in a shiur) and would be most grateful for a mareh makom for your deductive reasoning in the Talmud. Can you supply one at your earliest convenience?

[Shmarya]

Homosexual intercourse is the only thing that is called toeivah and has that severe penalty. So it clearly is considered by the Torah to be a much greater offense.

Meaning what?

That homosexuality is both disgusting and punishable by death, while Shabbat violations are not disgusting but are punishable by death?

And therefore we should demonize and persecute the former and nearly wholly ignore the latter?

Or that we should consider those who engage in homosexual sex disgusting but those who eat shrimp not so?

Or do you really mean that you are a homophobe first and a Jew second, and you'll do whatever it takes to justify the former by perverting the latter?

[Marc]

I'm Marc, I directed and edited the "It Gets Better" video. To all of the insensitive, homophobic critics who shared their views here: all of your bible-thumping, torah quoting judgment calls only serve to exacerbate the possibility that one day it could be your child, your brother, your grandson who becomes yet another suicide victim due to struggles over this issue.

I've been there, and I know how incredibly painful it is when frum family members reject and mock you based on their own stubborn ignorance.

No one is trying to convince you what is right or wrong in eyes of the torah or Hashem. We are just pleading for some sensitivity over a very human and very real issue.

al todin es chavercho ad shetagia bimkomo

[Jewish Cynic]

What's really needed is a solution where members of the community who have no interest in hetro sex (and may have a desire for homosexual sex) can have a role in society without being thought of as someone engaged in forbidden sex.

For example the Catholic church developed a splendid system. If a young man is attracted to boys not girls? Just take an oath of celibacy and join the priesthood!

[IH]

We have had such a system for centuries: tolerance.

[IH]

By way of example: how many suicides have actually been denied burial in a Jewish cemetery? [Answer: they weren't suicides, they were sick, or they fell out a window, or ...].

Why do we have to wait for suicides to happen, when we can show the same understanding to the living?

[ah-pee-chorus]

Marc -

it is certainly an important video for the jewish community. i'm sure it took a lot of courage from the participants.
are the men looking for acceptance within the orth community or are they just telling their stories of having grown up there?

[WoolSilkCotton]

The orthodox love to hate. Anyone and anything. Gays can feel inclusive in that regard. There are few, if any, groups the orthodox do not hate.
Waving the orthodox bible and demanding the death penalty for all the different people they hate is Standard Operating Procedure for the orthodox.

Of course- cheating, stealing, lying, molesting children, abusing women, using prostitutes, cruelty to animals- all these are perfectly acceptable, even celebrated, in the orthodox world, and are considered fully supported by the orthodox bible.

[ah-pee-chorus]

WSC- amen.

[IH]

Intolerance cuts both ways. And so it goes...

[Adam Paul]

The pain suffered by these guys and the doubtless countless, faceless others is unimaginable for those of us who aren't faced with the same conflicts between internal feelings and community standards. I would not wish these feelings of isolation, pain and self-doubt on anyone.

That said, I'm not clear about the end-game purpose of a video like this or the organizations cited at the end. If it's merely to provide support to a potentially vulnerable population (especially given the disproportionately high rate of gay teen suicide) then kol ha'kavod - it's obviously something worthy of praise and support. But you can't strip away the fact that Orthodox Judaism abhors homosexual behavior. There are no alternate interpretations of the text or minority opinions within Orthodoxy that condone homosexual behavior - it's simply forbidden. Trying to create some kind of detente between Orthodoxy and homosexuality is thus a futile and disingenuous exercise.

Others in this thread have raised the very valid point that there are many activities prohibited by Orthodoxy. And it's absolutely true - and wholly inconsistent, unfair, and wrong - that violators of those other laws are not necessarily shunned and stigmatized by the Orthodox community with the same virulence as those who openly engage in homosexual behavior. But there is a fundamental difference between the manner in which other 'sins' are performed vs. what might be called the 'loud-and-proud' public face of some elements of the gay community - including, based on the testimonies given, many in the video. And that is that someone who violates Shabbos (as I do) or doesn't keep kosher but still wants to maintain ties and association with the Orthodox community will likely engage in his 'aberrant' behavior privately. I personally don't keep Shabbos, but I also don't walk into a shul on Friday night blabbing on my cellphone and expecting the religion and community to 'just accept' my behavior. When I engage with the community, I respectfully adhere to its rules. As an adult, I'm free to sever ties from the Orthodox community whose rituals I no longer practice and whose theology I no longer believe in. If I want to openly violate its rules, I can engage in it elsewhere. But if I choose voluntarily to associate myself with the Orthodox community, then I feel it's my responsibility to be respectful of its rules, customs, and mores and not ask the community to 'accept who I am' while publicly flouting its rules.

The latter choice is, I'm afraid, the position taken by a significant segment of the gay community, and somewhat subtly, seems to be the message of this video: "It's ok to be gay, people will learn to accept you, you can live a happy life." All of that statement is true...if you distance yourself from Orthodox Judaism (or any other religion that prohibits it) and live in the secular society-at-large. But just as liberal critics castigate traditional religion for being 'closed-minded', 'biased', 'insensitive', etc. so too can I blame practitioners of 'aberrant' behavior (which I mean to refer to anything that violates the rules of the prevailing community with respect to Shabbos observance, kashrus, homosexuality or anything else) who insist on the COMMUNITY changing to fit their lifestyle, instead of the other way around, as being closed-minded, insensitive, and simply wrong.

Bottom line: if you're gay, by all means, be gay! If you want to break Shabbos, break Shabbos! If you want to eat treif, eat treif! It's a free country and you can do whatever the hell you want, and it's a big enough country that you'll likely find a community that supports any and every way you choose to live your life. But just as you're free to make your more 'liberal' choices, so should others be free to choose a more conservative lifestyle, too. Don't go to an community of people who live their lives according to a strictly defined set of rules and laws that have existed for thousands of years and publicly state: "I'm breaking your rules! And you have to change your ways! And you have to accept me! And you have to recognize what I'm doing is OK!" That is simply arrogant, selfish, and indulgent.

[Adam Paul]

...But, I hasten to add...

To the extent that a video like this might provide chizuk, support, an uplift in spirt, happiness, comfort, etc. to a lonely, scared, isolated, picked-on or abused youth, who feels that no one understands him or her, that life will always be miserable, that their existence is torture...

Kol ha'Kavod. This is a wonderful idea, execution, and service.

[Sarah]

'I am not as learned as some other contributors...'

Does anyone think that the majority of commenters on this post are learned?
They can read, no doubt.
Perverse though it may seem, there are actually sections of the Torah that direct a person to look at the reality that is in front of one's face, before adding to it the dark imaginings of one's own mind.

[WoolSilkCotton]

It would be a lot easier if someone could provide a list of all the groups- races, religions and their denominations, ethnicities, sexual orientation, social classes- you know, all the people that have benefitted from the progressive and civil rights movements of the 20th century, that the orthodox DON'T hate.

The same progressive movement that has so greatly benefitted those groups have also given rights and privileges to the orthodox here in the USA that were previously unheard of in any society in the past 2000 years.

As usual, the orthodox, utterly ignorant of history, fail to grasp this, and continue their ceaseless hate of everyone else here in the USA. Tolerance of others just doesn't work for the orthodox, but they demand that everyone gives them every right and privilege. And they wonder why they are so disliked by those of us who know them all too well.

It is indeed a positive sign to learn that you are of a group that the orthodox despise. It means you've been accepted into normative society. Welcome, gay people! Being hated by the orthodox shows you've arrived!

[WoolSilkCotton]

There is no greater feeling of relief than escaping from the orthodox prison ghetto.

You've made it over the barbed wire, you outran the barking dogs, the searchlights couldn't spot you, and the gunshots missed you.

Welcome to America! Join the 99.99% of a free society that rejects the orthodox Jewish religion of hate.

Sweet freedom! Leave the orthodox to stew and rot in their own hate.

[Edan]

I am considered a bleeding heart liberal in many of my veiws even compared to the rest of my family, but I still believe homosexuality is wrong. That being said I leave the judging to The Professional. I live in a downtown highrise, about 25% of tenants are gay, and I am on somewhat friendly terms with many even tho they know my views.
Homosex is not a learned behavior as many of the strongest opponents say, it is a naturally occuring impulse, but then again so is violence, and dislike for anything not familiar. Rise above yourselves.

[mendy]

>Hoelokim osoaoh es Haodom Yoshor. G-D made man straight.<

This is total nonsense.

Some babies are born hermaphrodite, having both male and female genitalia.

Others are born pseudohermaphrodite, appearing physically to be of one gender, but with hidden biological features of the other gender. Some fetuses, while in utero, have their developing brains flooded by hormones appropriate for the other gender, leaving them feeling as if they were, say, a girl, but having male genitalia and looking like a boy.

“Yoshor,” huh? How very kind of God.

So, you think that all these kids were created "straight?"

Many children—say, "sissy boys"—as young as 3 or 4 are destined to become gay. They have no choice in the matter.

Most gays will tell you they knew they were gay by the time they were 10 or 11. Some, much earlier.

And you think this is all evil bechirah?

You are a moron. As are most rabbanim.

[Sarah]

Mendy: Thank heavens, a trickle of sanity amongst the din.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I have no particular love for the gay lifestyle. In fact, I despise it. Whether it's something they can't help, or acquired behavior, doesn't really matter. Some people are natural-born criminals, too.

But who am I to tell people how to live their lives? They're not hurting me in any way by being gay.

[mendy]

Thanks, Sarah. And for the great pun.

[Edan]

Gays will never change that people belive their lifestyle is wrong, but they have the same right to expect justice and safty as the rest of us. Just dont expect us to say to our children "that man is gay, and thats perfectly OK".

[mendy]

Sarah:

>Wow! Inexpressibly beautiful.
Some time after I left my Chabad community, looking for volunteer work as an amateur filmmaker, I volunteered for a while at a Gay community TV station in Melbourne called Bent TV.
After about four months I had to leave.
After growing up among people who's hearts are corrupted and surround themselves with lies, in all seriousness, I just could not handle the raw beauty of their courage.<

You sound like a remarkable woman.

You're so right about frum people whose hearts are corrupted and who are surrounded with lies.

You might be interested in some posts I put up on the Seforim blog, trying to combat the stupidity of frum dogmatists.

See pages 2-3 of the comments at: http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments?ref=http://seforim.blogspot.com/search&title=the%20Seforim%20blog&path=/7613560543152787983&standalone=no&scoring=yes&backwards=no&sort=date&thread=yes&permalink=http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments%3Fref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fseforim.blogspot.com%252Fsearch%26path%3D%252F7613560543152787983&skin=echo&smiles=no&editable=yes&thread-title=Echo&popup-title=Echo&page-title=the%20Seforim%20blog

[mendy]

>Gays will never change that people belive their lifestyle is wrong, but they have the same right to expect justice and safty as the rest of us.Just dont expect us to say to our children "that man is gay, and thats perfectly OK".<

You WILL have to teach them that gay people have the same right to expect justice and safety as the rest of us.

And, I wouldn't be concerned that by telling your child that being gay is perfectly OK (s)he will choose to become gay. If your child is gay, (s)he will be gay no matter what you tell him/her.

And you will love that child.

[Edan]

I will teach them to respect the dignity of all humans, no matter their crimes, yes. But I will also pass on my values. The problem with insular orthodox communities today is they miss that first step, which breeds hatred. If i had hatered of gays, I would not live in a downtown highrise.