« Students Of Radical Chabad Rabbis Launch Intimidation Campaign Against Military Advocate General | Main | Planning Dinner For 4,500 Rabbis »

November 05, 2010

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

IH

It is a fascinating read, regardless of the (hyped) controversy about his level of observance in Paris which is but a small section of the book.

In fact, while I have always been anti-Chabad, reading the book increased my admiration for what they have accomplished for the good of the Jewish people, thereby mitigating my previously wholly-negative feelings.

Sadly, it will all be destroyed, if they are unable to dump the meshichistim (who have erected a false messiah).

Shmarya

Sadly, it will all be destroyed, if they are unable to dump the meshichistim (who have erected a false messiah).

Pretty much all of Chabad believes the Rebbe is the messiah.

The split is over whether or not to publicize this.

william e emba

My favorite rebbe story, which I have heard from more than one person, was that Rav Hutner was once asked if it was true that the young Rav Schneerson really did review Torah 100% while taking his secular classes. Rav Hutner was skeptical--he said he did not believe Rav Schneerson would engage in Torah with his head uncovered!

Of course, I have no idea if I should believe the story.

effie

Since his death, in 1994, it is the thriving network initially created by Schneerson that has allowed Chabad not only to survive but to expand into practically every corner of the planet...

It's like a pyramid scheme. Eventually, it will crash.

Garnel Ironheart

Ah, now we know why Shmarya is so anti-Chabad. His namesake, Shmarya Goursky was pushed aside from the Rebbe job that should have been his.

bubiii

they can beleive what they want about the rebbe but one thing is clear beleive has nothing to do with reality, those who think the rebbe is meshiah are nothing but hopless dupes who want to be duped so they can fantasize all day

harold

Ah the devil himself! Our arch enemy, the source of all evil! The man who has set our very own Mr. Rosenberg on his noble quest to rid the world of his memory, his movement and everything that he stands for. For this quest he has cast off all worldly pleasures, and has taken upon himself the yolk of poverty. A true tzadik. We are truly blessed!

corn popper

Shmarya,
You going to the Shluchim convention this week?

fakewood

most of lubavitch belives the rebbe is the messiah??

have you ever sat at a farbrengen in detroit, toronto or L.A yeshivas. most bochurim and shluchim dont buy into this crap. in crown heights wich has nothing to do with the chabad movement there is a majority of people who are messianic. but they are not viewed as the real chabad. the shluchim are viewed as the real movement.

estee

MM schneerson was normal before accepting the 'job' of becoming a 'rebbe 'under the condition of marrying mushka .

for sure MMS was not religious at all .
he was a plain russian . and everyone knows, more than me that russians are not religious .

MMS was a college student in paris. he did not'keep kosher'. are you kidding me if you say he did .
he did not 'keep' shabbos, either .
he was regular .

MMS enjoyed his life as a secular student .
he did not rot in a yeshiva .
he chose to go to college , instead , and have a degree in engineering .
that's pretty smart .

if MMS were 'religious', he would not have gone to college . a real 'lubavitch' would not have gone out of his community, certainly not in a secular place . especially at that time .they were too afraid to leave their community .

it's only after a few years, after enjoying himself as a student ,and enjoying his college life, and having flings with girls, right and left,
just like normal students do in college .
(don't forget , he is russian. russians are sex oriented people .
MMS was good looking and smart .

more than smart, he was a genius .

MMS decided to get married . just like anybody else. when his father in law 'screened him '
and realized he was a good catch for his daughter . that levi yitzrok proposed to menachem mendel schneerson .
it should have been the other way around .
the groom proposes to his future wife .
but levi ytzrok did not want to let go an opportunity of a life time for his daughter .
MMS was one of a kind , among the' good for nothing' , non educated yeshiva losers who hang out on yeshiva benches for years doing nothing, but looking for a shitty shidur .

levi yitzrok knew that MMS had great potential , otherwise he would not have given his daughter to a secular genius .
levi yitzrok would have given his daughter to a yeshiva boy, instead . but he didn't . because he knew better .

Menachem Mendel lll

THE ACCIDENTAL REBBE

Nonsense.

Menachem Mendel was no friggin "accident".

He was meant to be!!

It was beshert.

As Hebraic-Judaic proof I refereth you to: Parshat VAYISHLACH: Destiny vs. Human Action, when Adam and Chava were sent out of Gan Eden.

Fast forward to the end of the story it says: "The end result is as G-d originally intended."

Therefore if we accept that Rebbi Menachem Mendel as meant to be or beshert we have must also apply the same saychel to Rabbi Rubashkin the convicted criminal element and felon who is languishing behind bars for his horrific and unforgivable crimes that he committed against innocent men, women children, animals as well as the US government.

MOSCHIACH UBER ALLES!


IH

Fun and games aside.

Pretty much all of Chabad believes the Rebbe is the messiah. The split is over whether or not to publicize this.

I don’t have enough information to confirm or deny, but I do think there is a significant difference between saying Chabad has always been a messianic movement at its core (for which The Rebbe makes a good case) and saying Chabad has become a false messianic movement as its core as per the meshichistim.

There are too many people involved to believe in what amounts to a conspiracy theory.

IH

argh, sorry about the bolding...

Abracadabra

william e emba -

Rav Hutner encouraged secular education and college. His daughter, Rebitzin David, went to college, as did his best students. He clearly didn't believe that the Rebbe learned Torah in while in engineering classes, he just came up with a humorous way of saying it. Imagine, in those days a Jew was not ALLOWED to keep a head covering on while sitting in class! My grandfather a'h said it was the law in Eastern Europe that when you went to see a doctor, lawyer or anyone of a "respectable status" you needed to remove any head covering (yarmulka or hat) as a show of respect. Not doing so would get you kicked out of wherever you were.

The Rebbe learned Torah in engineering class as much as he learned Torah in the cafes and bars of 1930's Paris.

Rav Hutner just said it in a nicer way.

moshe

70% of the chabad sect came to realize that he was not the moshiah, after all.

but others try to convince themselves into believing he is .

or because they live in crown heights or are strongly connected to a wealthy shaliyah somewhere in the us or around the globe,they better say he is, although they do not believe at all that he is the moshiah . they pretend he is so that they can gethelp from the community .

if they speak up and say the truth, that MMS is not the moshiah. then, they are rejected by chabad .

Abracadabra

What I find very interesting is the reviews of the book at Amazon.com.

The Chabad chassidim, who are clearly those who left the 1-star reviews, are so upset by the book that they can't help themselves but to reveal that anything less than a dishonest hagiography of the Rebbe is unacceptable.

If the book weren't actually good, they wouldn't feel so threatened and wouldn't bother with all the negative reviews.

:)

You can find the book and the reviews here at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Rebbe-Afterlife-Menachem-Mendel-Schneerson/dp/0691138885/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

levi

is this a new book?

levi

http://inforebbe.blogspot.com/p/berlin-paris.html

Follow this link. you will find some short video clips of people recounting their personal experiences with the Rebbe while he was in Paris and Berlin.

Its always interesting to head directly from people who were actually there.. enjoy.

Shabbat Shalom!

Shmarya

Its always interesting to head directly from people who were actually there.. enjoy.

It's mostly BS.

The vast majority of people who claimed to have seen the Rebbe in Paris saw him only briefly, a few moments at a time or a day or two every year.

(And some of these people never really saw him – they suffer from projection, which means they met someone who looked in some way similar to the Rebbe, and then, after the Rebbe became famous, project backward and make that chance meeting with a stranger a meeting with the Rebbe. This is a well-known problem all historians face, and the people who project largely do so without realizing it.)

I have testimony that says the Rebbe ate in a non-kosher restaurant.

Chabad says that testimony is a lie or is projection, even though the Rebbe ate there often and the testimony came from someone who saw him there frequently.

So who's right?

Mr. Apikoros

So, he ate at Les Pieds des Cochons?

hannah

for sure menachem mendel schneerson did not eat kosher when he was a student in paris for many years.

come on, let's be realistic and fair .
in the thirtees, there was barely no kosher restaurants or kosher food readily available . so, how could MMS have nourished himself ?

by eating, just like everybody else the the ' resto U ' . non kosher food .

he was a big guy , tall and strong .

he was no neibish , like those you meet in the yeshiva , short and dry .

of course, menachem mendel schneerson, aka 'the failed messaiah' did not eat kosher.

Yochanan Lavie

Maybe he ate fish out.

jj

no, he is russian. he had cold cuts sandwiches. and meat . plenty of proteins .

he did not look like someone who ate fish . he looked strong and well nourished . ppl who eat fish are skinny and frail.

Aussie

Sure Chabad of today sux due to all the yechi BS but the Rebbe is dead so what's the point of digging all this up??...

On a side note....2 bocherim recently visited my state which has hardly any Jews and only one orthodox family that I know of....Spoke to one of the bocherim on the phone...I asked if he was from Chabad...
Was a long pause b4 he quietly answered "yes I am"...
Very telling IMO....

ruthie

if he ate out, yochanan lavie is right.
it was probably fish and/or vegetarian fare.
that is how frum jews lived...they just stayed away from meat restaurants. cafe's were a breeze.

HE ATE AS A FRUM JEW...NOT AS A HAREDI. there's an interesting difference there. no matter, i applaud him for living in paris and getting a degree. bravo

Sarah

'ppl who eat fish are skinny and frail.'

Speak for yourself ; )

Sarah

The point is, that I have yet to encounter a practising Chabadnik who has any authentic view of good and evil.
i.e. They do not actually believe in G-d.
So what the hell is the difference if they 'believe' if the Rebbe was or is Moshiach?
Something tells me that without divine assistance the whole salvation theme is a no show.

David

The point is, that I have yet to encounter a practising Chabadnik who has any authentic view of good and evil.

I totally agree with this. In my observation, their interactiopn with secular law is always associated with angles such as "How can I get away with this?", "How can I hide this income?", "How can we exploit this loophole?". With the exception of a few Ba'al Tshuva who have secular qualifications and experience, a vast majority of FFBs (Frum From Birth) are without a moral compass.

Successful Chabadnik

he was a big guy , tall and strong

LOL

The Rebbe was a giant, but physically he was fragile, no taller than many a 13 year old boy.

His father was tall and strong.

WoolSilkCotton

I was next to the Rebbe numerous times, when he walked by in 770, at Sunday morning dollar giveaways, honey cake handouts erev Yom Kippur, etc.

He was about 5'8".

Adam Neira

Rabbi M.M.Schneerson was a great man. I studied most of his works in depth eight years ago. He was/is not Moshiach. It is a pity that some Lubavitcher still hold within their heart the idea that he may be returning. The blind love some of them have for him is preventing them accepting guidance from the prophesied righteous redeemer. There are deep subconscious reasons for this. Fortunately G-d is in the process of overpowering the limitations of the conscious ego and the subconscious of many people at this time on the Planet. Superconsciousness will reign supreme. Truth is pouring into the zeitgeist in massive, redemptive waves. You can only fight the flow for so long.

Alan

This is a great read. The image of the rebbe having a stroke while speaking to his father in law (alaiv ha shalom) is a stirring image.

harold

Nominations for The Charles Bronfman Prize 2011 are invited between November 1, 2010 and January 14, 2011

So how about it guys. Another shot for greatness for our Mr. Rosenberg?

http://thecharlesbronfmanprize.com/

http://thecharlesbronfmanprize.com/nomination2011_call.php

http://thecharlesbronfmanprize.com/charlesbronfman.php

WoolSilkCotton

Alan, an elderly man known to have cardiovascular disease, standing on his feet for hours and hours praying, suffering a catastrophic stroke, is not a stirring image.

It's a very sad and tragic image, with nothing romantic or otherwise stirring about it.

Adam Neira

To WSC,

I also find the image disturbing.

Rabbi M.M.Schneerson's devotion to his faith was remarkable. He probably should have taken better care of himself in his later years. Righteous people often neglect to take care of themselves. It is ok to pray in many different ways. You can pray lying on the beach in the sun. You can pray when driving the car but it is not a good idea to wrap tfillin at the same time. You can pray at shul, quietly or loudly. You can say the Shema with gusto, relish or in a whisper. You can pray at the Western Wall by rocking back and forward or by placing a note in the cracks below where the little black birds live. There are different forms of prayer. As all good Jews know you don't need an intermediary between yourself and G-d.

xoxo

apikoros,
i love to eat at les Pieds De Cochon .
their entrees are fabulous and their desserts out of this world .
those who eat'kosher' don't know what they are missing .

tommy

Question for (ex-)Chabadniks: Is there a fixed time by which MMS must make his Second Coming or could the Messianists theoretically be waiting forever for his return like the Christians?

Shmarya

Question for (ex-)Chabadniks: Is there a fixed time by which MMS must make his Second Coming or could the Messianists theoretically be waiting forever for his return like the Christians?

Like Christians.

Adam Neira

To tommy,

Your comments reminded me of a little trick I use from time to time to get people’s head straight. What follows is a version of another test that I have given to Christians and Mahdi-believing Muslims in the past.

To all the Lubavitcher Schliuchim out there secretly visiting Failed Messiah and having a squiz at the goings on here, don’t worry you will not fall into a dark hole if you read the following...

I have a little game I would like to play with you. It is completely up to you whether you want to join in. I have offered the same deal to quite a few people in different parts of the world at different times over the past seven years.
The game is called the “Second Coming 2020 Futures Contract”.

This is how it works. As a Lubavitcher Messianist you will no doubt adhere to the belief that M.M.Schneerson is returning at some point in time for a second visit to terra firma. Because you hold this belief and that is why you are of this sect, you may be prepared to commit to something. Now I don’t believe in the idea of the second coming, whether it be the carpenter from Nazareth or the great Rabbi M.M.Schneerson. Now I will bet that he will never return. You can take a position and quite rightly profit from your belief.

For every dollar you invest I will pay you an amount = Your Stake x A Multiplier of 100 x The Number of Months Expired from the Start of the Contract when he Appears.
If he doesn’t appear by the year 2020, you lose your stake. If you would like to bet again then we can renegotiate another “Special Rebbe Contract”. It is a very generous offer. To make things worthwhile the minimum bet you can make is $10.

Example…

Rabbi M.M.Schneerson reappears descending from the clouds with his donkey at the gates of Jerusalem via YouTube in December 2012. (Just to shut those silly mayan pagan worshippers up and those smart-arse film directors as well.)

Your bet $10 x 100 x 37 months = $37,000

HOLY JACKPOT !!!

A good return in any stockbroker’s language.

Interested…

(Now if Chabad would turn their vast resources to the correct orientation of the WPC and WP2050 we would really be cooking with gas. PLEASE NOTE...I use this expression on purpose. Not one scintilla of disrespect is meant to the victims of the Holocaust. I am trying to dramatically shift people's focus from the past to what is possible in the future.)

P.S. I warn rarely, but if a certain focus is not created in the minds of various people in the Jewish community at the moment terrible problems could evolve.

P.S.S. For all those interested in timelines and calendars Gilad Shalit has been in captivity now for 1596 days, 8 hours, 21 minutes and 50 seconds. Watch the divine clock everyone. Do not ignore it. G-d has a plan. He will not be denied.

tommy

Thanks, Shmarya. That is what I figured. The true believers may ultimately wind up something like the Christians or even the Dönmeh.

Adam Neira,

The game is called the “Second Coming 2020 Futures Contract”.

You may be able to place that bet in Vegas. I believe bookies there will let you gamble on practically anything if you can find takers. I'm not sure what kind of odds they might give you, but it's kind of like betting against the success of liberal education reform: you really can't lose.

Adam Neira

To tommy,

I don't want to take a poor bookie to the cleaners, but if there is some obscenely wealthy bookmaker in Las Vegas willing to take some interesting bets that I propose to them it could be interesting.

Regarding the “Second Coming Futures Contract” business, the phone's not ringing from any Messianist Lubavitcher at the moment alas. (I’d feel a little guilty taking their money anyway. If I was willing to prey on people’s ignorance I’d be a billionaire by now. I educate and help for free. This gives me a lot of merit and sway but has not bought me a condominium in Miami.) Or perhaps they've instituted a psychic and spiritual lock-down in Crown Heights during the dinner/conference to block out all other media. They may even be throwing all kinds of darts at the spiritual dartboard to try and hit the bullseye and get G-d to send the Rebbe down in his black car to 770 so the world can witness the miracle. The super zealots are probably putting a pulsa denura on me at the moment. C’est la vie. But I've had lots of those little tricks tried on me over the years and they seem to just bounce off. The shield of righteousness is like the Colgate ring of confidence, je pense. Oh, you just reminded me. I should brush my teeth. Twice a day is my routine. Such digressions...

P.S. Please everyone reading this, take note ! In no way I am denigrating M.M.Schneerson. We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. I have great respect for the Dead. I know how the Thirteenth Article of Faith can be explained. It is not necromancy to say this but sometimes I believe I understand what the wishes of the dead are. There is a batting order with the living, the dead and the yet to come.

Successful Chabadnik

I was next to the Rebbe numerous times, when he walked by in 770, at Sunday morning dollar giveaways, honey cake handouts erev Yom Kippur, etc.

He was about 5'8".

-----

ROTFL.

I am 173 cms tall which is 5'8".

In a photo which I had taken at dollars in summer 1991 and which I will not share on this site for obvious reasons, it is clear that the Rebbe was nowhere near my height.

Perhaps you confuse the Rebbe with R' YL (Leibel) Groner who I think is an inch or so taller than I am but I have not seen him in ages and do not remember.

Reb Leivik ZYA, the Rebbe's father, was probably about 180 cms tall. His mother, Rebbetzin Chana nishmasa eiden was much shorter and like the Rebbe, had a rounder face as compared to Reb Leivik's long, angular face which looked nothing like that of his son.

I believe Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka was taller than the Rebbe as well.

Adam Neira

To Successful Chabadnick,

Your biographical information is very interesting.

BTW, I am listening at this moment to Hilary Clinton live on ABC News Radio. She is speaking at Melbourne University. It is great that she has made a visit to our fair city in the Great Southern Land. The Secretary of State is doing a good job with her brief at the moment.

Bill Clinton

The Secretary of State is doing a good job with her brief at the moment.

yucky....


Adam Neira

To Bill Clinton,

Welcome to Failed Messiah ! Strange name for a website, but a little bright jewel in a dark sea nonetheless.

The weather in Melbourne is very pleasant tonight, so your wife should be enjoying herself in our fine city. You really are a jet-setting couple. You both must have accumulated a zillion frequent flyer points. There's an advertisement on Matsav.com where you can sell your miles, if you need some extra cash. Please send me my 10% commission for this advice through the usual channels.

WoolSilkCotton

++Successful Chabadnik | November 07, 2010 at 01:55 AM++

In your imagination, the Rebbe was the same size as Shaquille O'Neal, he could run faster than Usain Bolt, swim faster than Michael Phelps, bicycle faster than Lance Armstrong, could write with both hands at the same time, flap his arms and fly, never had to stop for meals or bathroom breaks, etc.

Levi Yitzchak Schneerson died in 1944 in the Soviet Union, so your "probably 180 cm" is purely your imagination.

Successful Chabadnik

In your imagination, the Rebbe was the same size as Shaquille O'Neal, he could run faster than Usain Bolt, swim faster than Michael Phelps, bicycle faster than Lance Armstrong, could write with both hands at the same time, flap his arms and fly, never had to stop for meals or bathroom breaks, etc.

LOL what I said above directly negates your vapid verbiage. However, his contributions to this world were indeed far greater than any one of those athletes you mentioned.

----

Levi Yitzchak Schneerson died in 1944 in the Soviet Union, so your "probably 180 cm" is purely your imagination.

There are many pictures; not hard to take a round estimate of his height and especially to compare it to that of the Rebbe. I know very well who Reb Leivik was, what he looked like and where, when and how he left this world.

Successful Chabadnik

Oh and naturalization documents showing the height as submitted by both the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe and the Rebbe are extant.

I remember 5 ft 8 in for the Previous Rebbe and 5 ft 5 in for the Rebbe - but I don't have time to find them online.

Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA

Stop bashing the rebbi, this is nonsense if you dig dirt your find a dog. Take a look at the accomplishment! Do you know that if you get stuck in any part of the world you have a number to call for help? I was stuck once for shaboss when the plane was delayed in a town called Bang lamung, Thailand it was friday morning and a
tought came to my mind that I should call chabad. I called and suprise suprise within 2 hours I had a full shaboss package with even Kedem grape juice and a number to call where to go for shaboss. So please stop looking at the negative, look at the positive of the chabad movement thanks to Rabbi Shnneirson of chabad

larry

I found an interesting article discussing this very issue. If you want to get another perspective on this story, please follow this link.

http://chabadrevisited.blogspot.com/2010/05/inspired-by-forthcoming-book-titled.html

tommy

In your imagination, the Rebbe was the same size as Shaquille O'Neal, he could run faster than Usain Bolt, swim faster than Michael Phelps, bicycle faster than Lance Armstrong, could write with both hands at the same time, flap his arms and fly, never had to stop for meals or bathroom breaks, etc.

Those are just a few of the interesting facts about the Rebbe. Here are ten and eleven more.

larry

Here are some short video clips about the life of the Rebbe in France & Germany

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=759728
Un-Orthodox 1940 - Rabbi Menachem Tiechtel was a refugee in Southern France during the Nazi occupation. He shares a story about the Rebbe that he learned during that time.

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=443375
Eliyahu Schochetman is a professor of Law at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. His father, Meir, knew the Rebbe while living in Paris in the 1930s.


www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=443385
Asher Heber’s family moved to Paris in the early 1930s. His father, Leibish, was a businessman who assisted the Rebbe.

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=748972
Rabbi Chaim Nachman Kovalsky was a student of Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, author of the Halachic responsa, Sridei Eish. He shares a story he heard from Rabbi Weinberg about the Rebbe in Berlin. circa 1928

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=1264768
Berlin, 1928

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=759723
1940 - Mendel Notik worked in the Rebbe and Rebbetzin’s household during the 1970s. He shares a story he heard from the Rebbetzin about a “campaign” of the Rebbe to save Jews in Nazioccupied France.

Shmarya

Posted by: larry | November 07, 2010 at 02:07 PM

The problem with some of those clips, larry, is that they suffer from what historians sometimes call back-projection, i.e.e, people take chance meetings or fragments of memory from long ago and project their current knowledge into that memory.

The reality is that the actual contemporaneous historical record supports the claim that the Rebbe was not particularly frum, that he didn't keep kosher as we know it, and that he was for the most part uninvolved in Jewish and Chabad life.

But as you have so often proved in your previous comments, the chance of you understanding the facts, let alone accepting them, is remote.

larry

Shmarya,

Are you suggesting that all the “evidence” that the authors of this book collected are authentic and accurate, and all the fist hand encounters – as seen in these videos – are all “back-projection”.

In other words, if someone says something you like – its “scientific” and “true history”. But when you hear something you don’t like, you label it “back-projection”.

This seems to be a very objective way to analyze things in an objective and honest manner.

Shmarya

Are you suggesting that all the “evidence” that the authors of this book collected are authentic and accurate, and all the fist hand encounters – as seen in these videos – are all “back-projection”.

No.

I am suggesting several things:

1. The evidence in the book is primarily factual, meaning actual documents from city records, university records, etc.

2. The evidence that is used to dispute the book is primarily made up of very recent back-formations, meaning these stories started popping up after Shaul Shimon Deutsch published his books on the Rebbe in the late 90s.

This is especially suspect because Chabad compulsively collected and spread similar stories about the Rebbe before that time, but those stories do not act to discredit Deutsch's work or Friedman and Heilman's work.

3. Chabad lied about the Rebbe's secular education 'achievements,' about the Rebbe's brother's mental retardation, about the Rebbe's gggrandfather's mental illness, about the Alter Rebbe's son Moshe's mental illness and conversion to Christianity, and about the Rebbe's other brother's break from Orthodoxy. And that makes it likely that Chabad is lying here, as well.

4. Lastly, I'm suggesting that based on your record of comments here over a number of months, you're not bright enough or honest enough to understand any of this.

Successful Chabadnik

I knew as far back as 1990 that the Rebbe's brother (Yisroel Aryeh Leib) was not religious. If I would have asked around I could have found out about the rest.

But I prefer to look for light and leave the dust where it belongs, to be sweeped up into the dustbin of history. We watch, not surprised at all as Chabad grows and the Deutsch and Friedman/Heilman books fade into oblivion.

larry

Shmarya,

I’m not going to argue with you, I ave better uses of my time.

But just for the record. (almost) ALL (!) of the video clips and stories are from NON-chabadnik’s! they are simply re-telling personal memories, or thing the personally heard from their parents or teachers.

Are you suggesting that tens of individuals, of all walks of life, from all different parts of the world, with no apparent connection between one another - they are ALL falling pray to “back-projection”, while the “research” of Deutsch, Friedman and Heilman are accurate, based on some documents.

They have absolutely no context for these documents etc. and here we have MANY live individuals, who have some pieces of FIRST HAND knowledge of the full picture of the rebbe’s life, and they are all totally discounted.

If you want to explain to me how this is rational thinking, I would love to understand. Actual witnesses! are not credible to re-construct the life of the rebbe, especially since they are NOT chassids of the rebbe…

These authors have no LIVE evidence from real witnesses…

Shmarya

Posted by: larry | November 07, 2010 at 03:17 PM

Like I said, larry; you're neither bright or honest.

Back-projection is common with famous people and famous events. It does not depend on being affiliated with the subject's particular group or cause.

Past that, the documents tell the truth: that the Rebbe had no Berlin or Sorbonne degrees, that he was not a good student, that he accomplished little over the very long period of time he lived in Berlin and Paris.

The documents also prove Chabad lied and that it lied at a time when Chabad was relatively small and the Rebbe was well and saw every publication containing those lies – and the Rebbe never corrected them or stopped the lies from being spread.

And then you have another problem, one that you wholly fail to grasp.

Chabad does not include testimony from people who saw the Rebbe and his wife eat in non-kosher restaurants or hang out in nightclubs, etc.

In other words, Chabad only publicly displays the testimony that supports its myth.

You're frum, larry, largely because you're not educated enough, not bright enough and not honest enough to distinguish that myth from actual fact.

levi

"Chabad does not include testimony from people who saw the Rebbe and his wife eat in non-kosher restaurants or hang out in nightclubs, etc"

If you realy had this type of explosive evidence, why don't you bring us some video or audio from the witnesses?

Whe have all this evidence or Torah study, organizing jewish/religious classes for children in public school, giving regular torah classes publicly, risking his life (mesirat nefesh!) to get an etrog - crossing natzy controled boarders to italy, even going to the mikva every day!, fasting regularly (for religious reasons) etc.

we have quite a few witnesses for this.

now bring some witnesses and evidence for your (and your friends) grave acusations.

Adam Neira

To Shmarya,

What percentage of Chabad Lubavitchers do you think believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach ?

I've had some fascinating, but troubling discussions with some Lubavitchers on this subject in the last eight years. I thought the brainwashing had dissipated by now, but I may have been blindsided by over-trust. I do tend to over-trust and get burnt from doing so. When questioning them, they equivocate and rationalise with statements like,

"He is not alive in the physical sense but he is alive to us."

"His spiritual presence is redeeming humankind. It doesn't matter if he is not here right now. He will return one day soon".

They also distort the words of Maimonides and the prophecies to fit their narrow frame of reference. Chabad does a lot of good work, but if their long-term vision, worldview and frame of reference is not in keeping with the divinely mandated plan for humankind then they will be impeding the Redemption.

If they are fixated on only one teacher, they will ignore or neglect the wisdom of the prophesied wise counsellor. I'm not too worried, but if all the Jewish sects would co-operate then things would be moving faster. When confronted with great immovable forces of various shades of evil I have learnt you can only do so much, then it is up to G-d to do the rest. He is my greatest ally.


thetruthseeker

Contrary to what you state, the Rebbi was a very good student, as documented by Friedman and Heilman.

He excelled in mathematics and his grades were in the top third of his class in a demanding curriculum, despite his having started at an abnormally high age and missing classes due to Shabbat, for which he was officially excused.

As Senator Patrick Daniel Moynihan once stated, you are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts.

If I am wrong please cite your source.

Adam Neira

To thetruthseeker,

Same question posed earlier...

What percentage of Lubavitchers believe M.M.Schneerson was/is Moshiach ?

Shmarya

Contrary to what you state, the Rebbi was a very good student, as documented by Friedman and Heilman.

He was not.

He was almost expelled for low grades. I discussed this with Friedman, who has the letter from the tech school threatening the Rebbe.

His brother-in-law Mendel Horenstein, the husband of the Rebbetzin's sister Shayna, did fail, which contributed to his eventual death in the Shoah.

Shmarya

now bring some witnesses and evidence for your (and your friends) grave acusations.

You should be asking Heilman and Friedman why they did not print the damning evidence they have.

I know the answer to that question and it is not because the evidence is not valid.

larry

Shmarya,

Are you for real? You, Heilman and Friedman make bombastic & outrageous accusations against the Rebbe, then simply say that I have “my reasons” for not disclosing the “hard evidence”.

This sounds like kindergarten logic.

On the one hand we have real human beings, testifying to their personal experiences and encounters with the rebbe between 1920’s and 1940. And on the other hand we have you guys cooking up outrageous accusations, while stating that “we have good reasons not to disclose our evidence”…

Shmarya

Are you for real? You, Heilman and Friedman make bombastic & outrageous accusations against the Rebbe, then simply say that I have “my reasons” for not disclosing the “hard evidence”.

Larry,

As I noted earlier, you're not bright and you're not honest.

I have spoken to people who knew the Rebbe in Berlin and Paris, including Barry Gourary.

I know what they told me and I also know of more reliable evidence than that that shows the Rebbe was what I claim.

Heilman and Friedman have some of that evidence but chose not to include it in their book. I spoke with Friedman about this extensively.

But you, larry, are a little child with a small, dull mind as anyone who has followed your comments here over the past months can easily see.

Even so, try to wrap you that little mind of your around the fact that competing evidence to Chabad's evidence exists. Some was printed in the Friedman-Heilman book and some was not.

And nothing you say can change that.

larry

Shmarya,

Is Barry Gourary the only proof you can get? When/where exactly was he with the Rebbe in Berlin and Paris? (and how old was he at the time?)

If the best you can give us, is YOUR claim of what Berke Gourary said – a person with a very big personal/family grudge against the Rebbe (who stopped him - in federal court - from making millions by selling all the valuable books and artifacts of the Chassidic dynasty), any child would expect him to have a vendetta vd”l.

So you would use this UNVERIFIED and UNDOCUMENTED “evidence” AGAINST the personal testimony of quite a few, REGULAR Jews, NOT Chassidim, have nothing for or against the Rebbe, they are just stating the simple truth – as the recall it.

Once again: your assertion that you have “evidence” of “shocking” behavior in Berlin and Paris, but you cannot disclose and actually prove your “evidence”, is laughable at best…

Shmarya, when you have to resort to personal attacks and name calling…………

Successful Chabadnik

Barry Gourary was closer with the Rebbe at one time than he was with his father.

After Chabad spent time and money to get the library out of Poland, Barry Gourary stole books from it in order to make a quick buck. He lost in court, and had it been any other Chassidus he would never have made it to court - he would have been on a respirator. (Yes, I know what some meshuggener, whose family I even know, did to Mrs Gourary but it was not considered acceptable to put it mildly).

He then badmouthed his uncle who only treated him well.

He is not a source for anything.

And BTW I have been spotted in cafes in Europe myself....drinking Coke, mineral water or 'shudders' even a pint of beer. So have many of my fellow Lubavitchers who have visited or live in Europe.

Nightclubs - beyond laughable; reading such silliness does not even make me angry - it is so far off as to be funny.

Shmarya

Posted by: Successful Chabadnik | November 08, 2010 at 02:08 AM

Please.

Chabad could never have won in an independent beit din, which is why it took Barry to secular court.

In that court, Chabad lied about the library, claiming it belonged to Chabad rather than Beit Rebbe.

The reality is the Frierdiker Rebbe considered the library to be his personal property, and that is amply clear by his request to the US Government to save it – rather than save Jews – during the Holocaust.

At any rate, Barry was entitled to his share of that library and only the lies of Chabad – helped along by the always unethical Nathan Lewin – robbed him of that.

That Chabad chose to go to secular court rather than an independent beit din also shows how dishonest it is, and how dishonest Menachem Mendel Schneeron was.

Shmarya

Shmarya, when you have to resort to personal attacks and name calling…………

Please.

You call Barry Gouray names and yet you expect to be treated with some special respect?

You're not bright and you're not honest.

Now here's an FYI for you.

Ask about the confidentiality agreement Chabad had Barry sign in return for the some of the money he was owed.

And then ask yourself why you didn't know about this before.

Now toddle off.

Successful Chabadnik

Who paid to have the library taken out of Poland? I was a boy then and I remember how a non-Jew of Polish origin helped get it out on behalf of Chabad.

If Barry had paid to have it taken out, then objectively he would have a claim.

But it was Chabad's efforts that got it out.

Barry refused summonses to Beis Din and Chabad had no choice. If anything, in Beis Din Chabad would have had an easier time.

Shmarya

Please.

The Frierdiker Rebbe asked the US Government to save HIS books, HIS household goods, and HIS silver, and this is documented clearly by Rigg in Rescued from the Reich.

And it does not matter who paid to recover the books.

All that matters is what the Rayyatz thought about who owned them, and all evidence clearly shows that he considered the library to his personal possession.

Successful Chabadnik

Obviously, the secular judge, who was but an agent of the only true Judge, disagreed.

Shmarya

Obviously, the secular judge, who was but an agent of the only true Judge, disagreed.


That would be because Chabad, the agent of the Sitra Achra, lied to him.

Successful Chabadnik

Thanks for the laugh.

thetruthseeker

As to the Rebbi's academic performance, see pages 116-124 of Heilman's and Friedman's book the Rebbe.

The Rebbe, according to the book, by his third term in the advanced degree granting program ranked tenth out of thirty four. In his final year of study he was 12th out of 28 and 14th out of 29. This clearly put him in the top half of his class.

It is also obvious from the chapter that this was no junior college; but rather a very rigorous and advanced course.

Heilman and Friedman also make it clear that the Rebbe's Sabbath observance and absences negatively impacted his grades and that his competition was much younger than him.

In the words of Casey Stengel, "you can look it up."

(It is true he had problems his first term, but "by the second term he ranked 12th out of 35 and by this third term 10th out of 34.)

If anyone disagrees with my analysis, please tell me why I am mistaken.

Shmarya

If anyone disagrees with my analysis, please tell me why I am mistaken.

Because it was a junior college. Because I saw the letter threatening expulsion. Because Heilman and Friedman left out a lot of very negative things about the Rebbe because they "disrupted" the flow of the book.

Print all of those negative things, things both men know to be true, and the picture of the Rebbe that must be painted is that of a charismatic charlatan who toward the end of his life began to believe his own BS.

thetruthseeker

It was not a junior college; but rather a rigorous four year degree. I defy you to show any proof the college he went to was the equivalent of a junior college.

The letter about expulsion probably refers to his first semester where he ranked 35 out of 37 and also probably referred to his frequent absences.

It is unfair to judge a whole academic career on a student's first semester.

And do you really think Heilman and Friedman would lie about his class standing?


levi

some interesting video clips of the rebbe scientist.

Electrical Engineering + Rebbe’s work in the Brooklyn Navy Yard

www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5f9SsjU_GM

Part 2
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp4xyCF1GKQ

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHSyVxF6SGs

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=531057
circa 1980

http://www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=1317507
Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler

www.chabad.org/article.asp?aid=424357

Israel’s fist car company
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXf5Y2FCI6A

levi

"Print all of those negative things, things both men know to be true"

Shmaya, this is a very un-intellectual argument. "if you wold only know what I know, you would clearly agree with me". "I just cant provide and prove my evidence to you for some private reasons..."

"just take my word on this!", the rebbe is just an amateur in secular and torah knowledge.... "

how bright! anyone - very intelligent people (both in torah knowledge and secular) - who met the the Rebbe attests to the contrary and how they have never met someone so knowledgeable, buy you and Heilman know the "truth" that nobody else knows...

Shmarya

Shmaya, this is a very un-intellectual argument. "if you wold only know what I know, you would clearly agree with me". "I just cant provide and prove my evidence to you for some private reasons..."

That is not what I said.

I said I saw the letter and I said I spoke with people – including Barry Gourary – who knew the Rebbe in Berlin and Paris.

I also said there is negative information Heilman and Friedman did not print, and that I spoke with Friedman at length about this and argued with him about it, and that this information was left out, not because it wasn't true or could not be verified, but because they felt it distracted readers from their narrative that ends with the putative messiah dying.

I argued that information that proves the Rebbe and Chabad stole money, or information that proves that the Rebbe violated halakha in Paris, must be included if it is valid.

Friedman disagreed.

In other words, the book you hate would have been much worse for you if Friedman and Heilman had simply presented all the facts they had.

Shmarya

some interesting video clips of the rebbe scientist.

The Rebbe was not a scientist.

Shmarya

how bright! anyone - very intelligent people (both in torah knowledge and secular) - who met the the Rebbe attests to the contrary and how they have never met someone so knowledgeable, buy you and Heilman know the "truth" that nobody else knows...

I know people who met the Rebbe and who thought he was a disingenuous charlatan.

Don't they count?

Or is it only Chabad spin that counts?

levi

"I know people who met the Rebbe and who thought he was a disingenuous"

Shmarya,

It seems like all the info you have is highly classified :)

you make wild accusations, then say you "spoke with people" and "saw letters" proving it.

Please publicise some credible evidence. Bring ACTUAL credible and believable witnesses - they should speak for themselves, not you just telling us you spoke with so and so.

Shmarya

you make wild accusations, then say you "spoke with people" and "saw letters" proving it.

They are not wild accusations and I clearly told you Friedman and Heilman have a lot of this stuff, too.

And you must also factor in threats from Chabad, which causes some people to fear coming forward.

If you doubt this – which you probably will because you are, in essence, in a cult – remember what Chabad did to Shaul Shimon Deutsch.

thetruthseeker

All you have to do is show some proof the college the Rebbe went to was a junior college.

It should be easy enough, unless it is not true.

Shmarya

It should be easy enough, unless it is not true.

In Pre-WW2 France, the Ecolé was a technical school on par with American technical schools and junior colleges common in the 1970s and 80s.

But you protest too much – Chabad, the organization you shill for, for years claimed the Rebbe had a degree from the Sorbonne in electrical engineering.

And that was, of course, famously false, because the Rebbe never got a degree from the Sorbonne and the Sorbonne did not have and EE program.

So to claim your Rebbe was some unique scholar is false.

Nobody

"The blind love some of them have for him is preventing them accepting guidance from the prophesied righteous redeemer."

You've said too much again, Adam Neira. You given lie to your previous denials.

How can one "Receive Guidance" from a person who does not exist (yet)? I think we all know who you consider your "prophesied righeous redeemer" and who you "accept guidance" from - So why do you lie about it?

Successful Chabadnik

remember what Chabad did to Shaul Shimon Deutsch

Shaul Shimon Deutsch showed up in a sukkah in Crown Heights when I was last there for Sukkos because he had a connection to someone who was making a birthday farbrengen in that sukkah which belongs to a close friend of mine. No one touched him, a couple of people VERY gently teased him - and he got no attention. I had no idea who he even was at first, and could have cared less.

Official Chabad ignores him. A couple of nuts caused him problems. Some people from CH even go to his museum. As was once said about a clown from Neturei Karta "He is not important enough to be in cherem".

Successful Chabadnik

Because I saw the letter threatening expulsion.
--
That was to R' Moshe Horenstein HYD according to Friedman, or Assaf, or whoever spends his time digging up notes from the garbage.

Shmarya

Shaul Shimon Deutsch showed up in a sukkah in Crown Heights when I was last there for Sukkos because he had a connection to someone who was making a birthday farbrengen in that sukkah which belongs to a close friend of mine. No one touched him, a couple of people VERY gently teased him - and he got no attention. I had no idea who he even was at first, and could have cared less.

Please.

You're either incredibly disingenuous or incredibly dull.

Deutsch published his books in the mid-1990s.

He left Crown Heights and lived with terroristic threats for several years.

But Deutsch has not published volumes 3 through 5 of his work, which has lessened the threats against him.

The fact that he feeds a huge swath of Crown Heights also helps.

Now run along and bow down to your life-sized picture of your god.

Successful Chabadnik

He left Crown Heights and lived with terroristic threats for several years.
--
He made this up with the help of ratings hungry Zev Brenner. I suspect he may have had problems from kids and loose cannons when the books first came out. But official Chabad knew who he is and knew he was a strange bird since his childhood - and they ignored him.

The few people he feeds in CH are probably being fed through him by a Chabad donor who wants anonymity. I know of at least 2 very straight and honest, and very private, donors who would operate that way so as to avoid attention.

Deutsch is a museum piece of no consequence to anyone.

He cannot even drink wine for kiddush because he is on psych meds (this I know for a fact from one of his few chassidim and he also agreed with me regarding Deutsch's source of funding other than City Harvest being from CH).

I have but smaller and artistic portraits of the Rebbe, so I am afraid I cannot act upon your very sagacious suggestion.

Shmarya

He made this up with the help of ratings hungry Zev Brenner.

Please.

I knew about the threats against him as they happened, and there is no question that the threats were real.

The few people he feeds in CH are probably being fed through him by a Chabad donor

Again, you lie. There are hundreds, not thousands, and I know this for a fact from an unimpeachable source who is not part of the Deutsch family.

The seal of God is truth but the seal of Mendel Schneerson is lies and spin.

You Chabadniks replaced one with the other, and you have no shame.

Successful Chabadnik

The seal of God is truth but the seal of Mendel Schneerson is lies and spin.

You Chabadniks replaced one with the other, and you have no shame.

----

LOL thanks for the entertainment. Really. See you again on Nitel Nacht when I really go for comedy.

thetruthseeker

Of course, I never said the Rebbe was or was not an outstanding scholar; I merely said he was an above average student; as is documented by Heilman and Freidman.

UCLA prominently displays its relationship with ETSP in UCLA's website. That implies it is much more than a "junior college."

Even if it was, Heilman and Freidman makes it clear that the Rebbe took a rigorous course of study under adverse circumstances and performed above average.

Hardly the "poor student" you misleadingly portray.

If anybody except you disagrees with my analysis, I would like to hear why. Surely you have friends in this website willing to defend you when you are correct.


Shmarya

UCLA prominently displays its relationship with ETSP in UCLA's website. That implies it is much more than a "junior college."

Please.

The entire French post-secondary educational system is much different today than in 1939. To compare the two as you do is foolish.

Even if it was, Heilman and Freidman makes it clear that the Rebbe took a rigorous course of study under adverse circumstances and performed above average.

"Adverse circumstances"? Are you out of your mind?

The Rebbe had no financial worries, did not need to work, and had plenty of free time to frequent cafés and the theater.

It was only AFTER he received his degree that the war reached France.

Now run along and bow down to your picture of your god.

thetruthseeker

The adverse circumstances were that he had study in French, a language he did not know; he had to miss numerous classes because of Shabbat and Jewish Holidays and he was substantially older than other students.

Once again, the only creature willing to agree with you, despite all your faithful followers on your website, is your god, YOU.

In your blind hatred, you portray an above average student as being, and I quote, a "poor student."

You are a liar.

thetruthseeker

Run along, you stupid liar.

Shmarya

The adverse circumstances were that he had study in French, a language he did not know; he had to miss numerous classes because of Shabbat and Jewish Holidays and he was substantially older than other students.

He lived in Paris for many years, and much of the technical material he had to study was readily available in German, a language he knew well.

Classes were not held on Shabbat.

Jewish holidays take only a few days per year, and many of those days coincide with Shabbat.

According to Chana Gourary, the Rebbe's sister-in-law, when he was asked by his wife in the late 1980s not long before she passed away what would happen with her late father's hasidut after the Rebbe's passing, the Rebbe responded to her in French – a language the Schneersons spoke at home.

Run along, you stupid liar.

Looking in the mirror again, eh?

Shmarya

I should also add that Chabad promoted the Rebbe as being fluent in 6 or more languages and did so while the Rebbe was alive. One of those languages was French.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Search this site with Google:

Comment Rules

  1. No anonymous comments.
  2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.
  3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.
  4. Do not sockpuppet.
  5. Try to argue using facts and logic.
  6. Do not lie.
  7. No name-calling, please.
  8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.
***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***
6a00d83451b71f69e201b8d1656462970c-250wi

FailedMessiah.com in the Media