Gentiles Exist Only To Serve Jews, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Says

“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel. That is why gentiles were created.”

Yosef: Gentiles exist only to serve Jews
According to Rabbi, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.
By JONAH MANDEL • Jerusalem Post
 
The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews, according to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.

“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.

According to Yosef, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.

“In Israel, death has no dominion over them... With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

This is his servant... That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,” Yosef said.

“Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.

That is why gentiles were created,” he added.

Yosef’s Saturday night sermons have seen many controversial statements from the 90-year-old rabbi. In August, Yosef caused a diplomatic uproar when he wished a plague upon the Palestinian people and their leaders, a curse he retracted a few weeks later, when he blessed them along with all of Israel’s other peace-seeking neighbors.

Comments

[Adam Neira]

If Rabbi Ovadia Yosef actually said this then I hope his comments get short shrift throughout the media world. I pray that something has got lost in translation. Such sermons are about as uplifting as the Hindenburg. In the Messianic Kingdom everyone will have a place. People will have a job to do and will be happy with their lot. I'm not sure what I will do with controversial senile-onset nonagenarian Rabbis though.

[emmylou]

It was that line of thinking that steered my mom away from Judaism. When she started to read the fine print, she was turned off.

[Michael R.]

Actually, an Aish article on Rosh Hashana says something similar. On day one the observant Jew's year is set for his/her forward progress. Day 2 is when ALL other people on earth (including non-observant Jews)are set up for the coming year. This second category of human being is only "blessed" to the extent that his/her life's activities will in some fashion support the lives of the "Torah True Jew".Ie. doctors, sanitation workers, etc. So, what O.Y. (oy!) spoke in his talk are not simply the crazy ideas of a 90-year old "extremist".

[emmylou]

Like I said, that's why my mom gave up Judaism. She started looking into it, and did not like what she found.

[ruthie]

1. this is scary.
2. why would he say something SO STUPID AND DANGEROUS in public?
and
3. if there is a day one and day two on rosh hashana...then i'm outta here.

[al Farabi]

They should chuck this senile fucking prick into jail - maybe he can share a cell with rubashkin

[al Farabi]

They should chuck this senile fucking prick into jail - maybe he can share a cell with rubashkin

[Dovy]

How can get we yank this senile old fool off the stage? His 15 minutes of fame are long-gone...

[Proud to be a Jew]

B"H
Another much more popular and hence dangerous Jewish extremist :-)
:

1. Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has shone upon you.
2. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and a gross darkness the kingdoms, and the Lord shall shine upon you, and His glory shall appear over you.
3. And nations shall go by your light and kings by the brilliance of your shine.
4. Lift up your eyes all around and see, they all have gathered, they have come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be raised on [their] side.
5. Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall be startled and become enlarged, for the abundance of the west shall be turned over to you, the wealth of the nations that will come to you.
6. A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah, all of them shall come from Sheba; gold and frankincense they shall carry, and the praises of the Lord they shall report.
7. All the sheep of Kedar shall be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall serve you; they shall be offered up with acceptance upon My altar, and I will glorify My glorious house.
8. Who are these that fly like a cloud and like doves to their cotes?
9. For the isles will hope for Me, and the ships of Tarshish [as] in the beginning, to bring your sons from afar, their silver and their gold with them, in the name of the Lord your God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you.
10. And foreigners shall build your walls, and their kings shall serve you, for in My wrath I struck you, and in My grace have I had mercy on you.
11. And they shall open your gates always; day and night they shall not be closed, to bring to you the wealth of the nations and their kings in procession.
12. For the nation and the kingdom that shall not serve you shall perish, and the nations shall be destroyed.
13. The glory of the Lebanon shall come to you, box trees, firs, and cypresses together, to glorify the place of My sanctuary, and the place of My feet I will honor.
14. And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and those who despised you shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you 'the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.'
15. Instead of your being forsaken and hated without a passerby, I will make you an everlasting pride, the joy of every generation.
16. And you shall suck the milk of nations and the breast of kings you shall suck, and you shall know that I am the Lord, your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17. Instead of the copper I will bring gold, and instead of the iron I will bring silver, and instead of the wood, copper, and instead of the stones, iron, and I will make your officers peace and your rulers righteousness.
18. Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, neither robbery nor destruction within your borders, and you shall call salvation your walls and your gates praise.
19. You shall no longer have the sun for light by day, and for brightness, the moon shall not give you light, but the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and your God for your glory.
20. Your sun shall no longer set, neither shall your moon be gathered in, for the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be completed.
21. And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land forever, a scion of My planting, the work of My hands in which I will glory.
22. The smallest shall become a thousand and the least a mighty nation; I am the Lord, in its time I will hasten it.
Yeshayahu- Isaiah - Chapter 60

[MZ]

And sowhy can't we marry them? My friends in college who married Koreans seem very happy (much more so than many of those who married JAPs).

[Mr. Apikoros]

Of course, this was referring to the coming of Moschiach, better known throughout the world as Jesus Christ.

So for all you nonbelieving heathens, you'll just have to wait for Her second coming, and guess what, it's not Menachem Mendel Schneerson. It's not even the guy who posts here calling himself Menachem Mendel III, as entertaining as he is.

But until that happens, Rabble Ovadia Josef is a racist and a fool. As usual.

[Abracadabra]

Why isn't there a mandatory retirement age for these wackos?

[A. Nuran]

Any Gentile who wants to make this Jew happy will serve me by putting a muzzle on Rabbi Ovadia Josef

[Adam Neira]

To Proud to be a Jew,

Moshiach is not physically in the Holy Land yet although he is alive and kicking on Planet Earth. Rabbi Ovadiah’s words are coming from a totally different place to which G-d and Isaiah meant. There is some truth in what he has to say but not how he said it. His inference is almost a polar opposite of the true intent. Isaiah is my favourite prophet. Interpreting prophecy is a task best left to very special people.

I'll explain Chapter 60 for you because I am in the mood...

1. Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has shone upon you.

This relates directly to the spirit of prophecy resting upon and becoming known to the man who will become recognized as Moshiach as he accomplishes his set tasks. G-d is the superset of all creation. As Maimonides explains in "Guide for the Perplexed" prophetic insight is given to certain people throughout history. The revelation of Moshiach as enunciated by the "Twelfth Article of Faith" unfolds over time. For the person anointed as the righteous redeemer/prince of peace/wise counsellor the process is interesting.

He will have inklings of his true purpose all throughout his life, but the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will become clearer at certain specific times. The revelations will be intensely personal and private between G-d and himself. This will lead to feelings of surprise, wonder, awe, confusion, fear, anger, annoyance, lethargy, inspiration, invigoration and acceptance. He will learn how to orientate and position himself so as to best maximise his role and function in the service of the ultimate mission. He will be mis-interpreted by many people and will attract real hatred, envy, jealousy and vitriol. He will be very close to G-d. His power and influence will grow over time. G-d will assist him in his mission.

2. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and a gross darkness the kingdoms, and the Lord shall shine upon you, and His glory shall appear over you.

Means that the spirit of prophecy and divine intervention will happen at a very dark period in human history. The idea that he the revelation to him can happen at a time when humankind is debased entirely is relevant here. Think Feb. 2nd 1998 as a time for this revelation to an individual.

3. And nations shall go by your light and kings by the brilliance of your shine.

This relates to Isaiah 2:1-5. What the "mountain of the house of the lord" means is the following. Mountain implies peak, apex, highest point, i.e. the wisest opinion, perspective will present itself at some point. This higher authority will thus need to be heeded. The "chief of the mountains" bit means that this person will have to recognized, supported and heeded as the leader of the generation. The part about the word going forth from Zion alludes to the fact that at some point this person will be installed in Jerusalem proper.

4. Lift up your eyes all around and see, they all have gathered, they have come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be raised on [their] side.

Ditto above.

5. Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall be startled and become enlarged, for the abundance of the west shall be turned over to you, the wealth of the nations that will come to you.

Because the Messianic Government will be one dominated by righteousness people will agree to it and thus it well be adequately funded.

6. A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah, all of them shall come from Sheba; gold and frankincense they shall carry, and the praises of the Lord they shall report.

Ditto

7. All the sheep of Kedar shall be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall serve you; they shall be offered up with acceptance upon My altar, and I will glorify My glorious house.

Ditto

8. Who are these that fly like a cloud and like doves to their cotes?

A little metaphor about the angels and sanctuary.

9. For the isles will hope for Me, and the ships of Tarshish [as] in the beginning, to bring your sons from afar, their silver and their gold with them, in the name of the Lord your God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you.

Many people will pray in their hearts for a time of deliverance and peace. An interconnected world will see this process accelerate. Think Oct. 18th 2010.

10. And foreigners shall build your walls, and their kings shall serve you, for in My wrath I struck you, and in My grace have I had mercy on you.

Same explanation as 5.

11. And they shall open your gates always; day and night they shall not be closed, to bring to you the wealth of the nations and their kings in procession.

Ditto

12. For the nation and the kingdom that shall not serve you shall perish, and the nations shall be destroyed.

Non-righteous, uncooperative and disobedient places to the Messianic Government will suffer and perish. No real surprise here. Follow a satanic, downward vortex path, refuse to do good, reflect, pray and repent and you don’t have long to live either personally or as a culture.

13. The glory of the Lebanon shall come to you, box trees, firs, and cypresses together, to glorify the place of My sanctuary, and the place of My feet I will honor.

Yes, even the fractious Levant will work with the Messianic Government.

14. And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and those who despised you shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you 'the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.'

True. Once righteousness is installed in its proper place, people will respect this authority.

15. Instead of your being forsaken and hated without a passerby, I will make you an everlasting pride, the joy of every generation.

As Psalms explains the truly righteous are able to eventually gain respect from those who were once their enemies.

16. And you shall suck the milk of nations and the breast of kings you shall suck, and you shall know that I am the Lord, your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Ditto 5.

17. Instead of the copper I will bring gold, and instead of the iron I will bring silver, and instead of the wood, copper, and instead of the stones, iron, and I will make your officers peace and your rulers righteousness.

Ditto 5.

18. Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, neither robbery nor destruction within your borders, and you shall call salvation your walls and your gates praise.

Violence is not innate from birth, so someone that eventually commits an act of murder, child sexual abuse or other evil crime has been subject to many things before such a time in their life. In the full Messianic Age there will be no acts of violence. The process of the Redemption is about reducing all acts of sexual, physical and emotional violence everywhere on Planet Earth, If the Jews are to lead the world and fulfil their divine potential then they should be the group that leads the way first. Then they will be blessed. Moshiach will do everything in his power to mitigate acts of violence and over time the Holy Land and Planet Earth will become free of violence.

19. You shall no longer have the sun for light by day, and for brightness, the moon shall not give you light, but the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and your God for your glory.

Isaiah is really trying to get through to people here the power of the Messianic Age and the dazzling prophecy he beheld of such a time in the future. There are many cases of exaggeration for a purpose to get a point across. He is using words to make an impact. Prophecy does that to you.

20. Your sun shall no longer set, neither shall your moon be gathered in, for the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be completed.

Ditto

21. And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land forever, a scion of My planting, the work of My hands in which I will glory.

Righteous government will see the Jews safely at home in Israel however this does not mean that there will not be Jews elsewhere in the world. The Messianic Kingdom will be based in the land but will extend globally. The arc of concern will be very wide indeed.

22. The smallest shall become a thousand and the least a mighty nation; I am the Lord, in its time I will hasten it.

A small group of souls will eventually gain more power and strength. The current status of the State of Israel and the Jews is pretty good but much more work needs to be done.

The last verse here “in its time I will hasten it” is extremely important and very conroversial. Forcing of the redemption is dangerous. Human beings make imperfect decisions. Isaiah did not know the exact timeline of the redemption but he knew it would happen at some point in the future. Think World Peace 2050 and you’ll be spot on. G-d also prepares things centuries in advance. He sets everything up for a reason. Humans often need their states of denial to be smashed before they will heed a higher authority. Generations can suffer for the follies of their predecessors.

Hope this is of interest to all the readers out there. I can interpret all the other parts of the Tanach, but not today. We don’t want to blow too many brains with too much information now do we ?

P.S. The Rabbinate can burn me at the stake but for as long as I live I will continue to identify myself first as a Human Being, second a Jew.

[sam]

Wow Emmylou, your Mom (who I take it was not Jewish but thinking of converting to Judaism?) was so turned off by the above sort of comments that she decided not to? I think there is more to the story: a) that kind of statement is not mainstream Judaism, and coming from a 90 year old man is automatically suspect; b)since mainstream Judaism believes that all religions can get to heaven if the people are good, it's difficult to reconcile the above Rabbi's thoughts with that; c) there are many streams of Judaism from Chassidic to Herredi to Conservative to Reform. Suggest you tell her to try again.

[Eli]

As mentioned by others, this is mainstream Haredi thought, although they may not admit it publicly. I speak as an "off-the-derech" guy who went through a number of "mainstream" chassidish and yeshivish yeshivos. This is part of how cult systems work - by defining anyone not part of the cult as being a lesser person.
As I once read somewhere - in humor - God created one billion Chinese people just so we can have cheap Chanukla presents.

[Hometown Postville]

Eli- I like your analogy: "This is part of how cult systems work - by defining anyone not part of the cult as being a lesser person.
As I once read somewhere - in humor - God created one billion Chinese people just so we can have cheap Chanukla presents."

If the rabbi only knew how many were making fun of him... is he here only to entertain gentiles?

[MarkfromShortHills]

Yosef, vile as he is, is simply a politician who panders to his black-hat "constituents". That he does so in the name of Judaism is unremarkable; politics has always prostituted religion. The problem here is that although most Jews - excepting the black hats, of course - expect better from a rabbi, the progressive "haredi-ization" of Israel is elevating what would otherwise be beyond-the-fringe lunacy to a position approaching respectability.

We see this in all aspects of Israeli politics. From the inability of non-haredi Jews - even Israeli soldiers! - to get married because they are insufficiently Jewish, to the arrest and potential jailing of a Jewish woman to dares to carry a Torah at the Wailing Wall, to the exclusion of women from the public streets in haredi neighborhoods, to the forced segregation on buses, etc., Israel is handing its government and its civil society over to a haredi Taliban.

Think of this the next time your synagogue distributes literature for Israel Bonds.

[jancsibacsi]

he is so full of himself this rav that he lost his mind or maybee never had a one at all he doesnt see himself as others do he is an old fool and a megalomaniac this is what its like in iran there the muhlahs also think along the same lines too much of anything is no good to much eating too much religion just destroys a person everything should be done in moderation

[John]

The only good jew is underneath the goy's shoe.

[jancsibacsi]

john- now youre no better then the person you hate you fool

[Alter Kocker]

Did he say this before or after they changed his diaper?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Apologies to Shabbetai Zissel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva

You might be an Arab pulling olives from your tree;
You might be a Christian singing “Nearer my God to Thee”;
You might be a Druzi with a red fez on your head;
You might be Bahai, lookin’ at the Baab, who is dead;

But you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
You may be the devil; he’s servant of the Lord;
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia

You might be from Hamas, livin’ somewhere in Gaza;
You might be from Fatah, up the road in Ramallah;
You might live in the West Bank, sleeping’ in a crumbling’ shack;
You might be Armenian, in a robe that’s very black;

But you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
You may be the devil; he’s servant of the Lord;
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia

You may be a preacher on sabbatical from your church,
Or a Protestant professor, doing some research;
Or a Roman Cath’lic father, cruisin’ for some boys;
Or a Southern Baptist Choir, makin’ a lot of noise;

But you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
You may be the devil; he’s servant of the Lord.
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.

You may be a tourist from Hong Kong or Japan;
You may be from Manila, working here for a Jewish man;
You might be a Russian, a relative of the Czar’s;
You might be from elsewhere, even from the plant Mars;

But you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.
You may be the devil; he’s servant of the Lord,
Yes, you’ll have to serve Ovadia.

[seymour]

What he said is not a bazzar as many people think, he is the only one to say it publicly

[Dave]

Adam, excellent interpretation.

[David]

OK, so why the hell was Ovadia Yosef created? Comic relief? The promotion of hatred, bigotry and supidity?

[Pierre]

Many do say it publicly, from pulpits to Shabbat tables, I've heard it many, many times. It is indeed mainstream Charedi thought to say the above - but I conjecture that many people mean different things by it. When discussing nations (being destroyed, being subservient to Israel, etc), has been understood as individuals of nations, as some nations not others, etc. For example, nations being destroyed; destroyed AS NATIONS, not as individual people; they lack collective Neshamot as nations, only individuals have Neshamah - through Adam - this is Rav Kook's take on the value of individuals over their given "nation", an explanation from Iggerot Harayah of the oft-misquoted statement of his about nations being animals in comparison to Israel, stated before him; source later when i find it). In fact in Eretz Israel, such groups can only be individuals, as where would we see Torah countenancing the kind of identity politics of Palestinians as a "nation"? If they're simply members OF Ishmael, perhaps - but that would mean *Ishmael* isn't subservient to Israel simply because modern-entity-called-Palestinians are.

[Maverick]

This is just a natural conclusion of the Charaidi philosophy:

It starts benignly: Jews are held to a higher standard.
Then it starts going crazy: Jews should keep to their own, more holy community, and not associate themselves with gentiles, who are spiritually lesser than Jews.
It follows: Jews are intrinsically greater than gentiles
Then: The lesser gentiles [here compared to a "donkey"], just like all the other lesser creations, exist only to serve the greater creations, ie. the Jews.

(I know there are several logical fallacies in these statements. Indeed, that is the point. This appears to be the haraidi philosophy, and it is often not logical.)

[sam]

Hey, after 2,000 years of murder, pogroms, the holocaust, etc. etc. is it surprising that some in the Jewish community might say screw them, they are lesser people (and based on Christian BEHAVIOR, I'd have to agree - not in terms of their souls, but in terms of their actions). If Christians behave themselves for another several hundred years and refrain from murdering us again, Harredi thought might become more favorable towards them (though based on the leftists of the media and the universities, I fear it's going to get worse, not better)

[Yochanan Lavie]

OCR: good parody.

[Pierre]

As per my previous comment the source for Rav Kook on nations and the then-still-current European Romantic Era concept of 'national soul';

http://harherem.blogspot.com/2006/12/in-baltimore-as-it-is-in-heaven-ii-my.html

[Mr. Apikoros]

"If the Christians behave themselves for another several hundred years..."

That's truly Christian of you, Sam the Sham Jew.

[emmylou]

Sam, that's a pretty messed-up way of looking at people who aren't Jewish. It's similar to the the way Nazis viewed Jews.

[Y. Aharon]

The sentiments that are the subject of this post are, indeed, offensive to many who consider themselves Orthodox. While the attitude behind those statements are common in Hareidi circles, expressing them in a public forum is certainly a desecration of the divine name when uttered by a prominent halachic decisor. The sentiments are not only impolitic, they represent a wrong-headed reading of Tanach. The Jewish people, particularly in the Messianic era, are intended to be the teachers of humanity - not their masters. As the torah expresses it, "My first-born son is Israel". All of humanity are considered GOD's children and are formed in His likeness. Israel's role is that of elder son and teacher of his younger siblings. That is also the intent of "You (the Jewish people) shall be for Me a kingdom of priests and a holy people". The function of a priest is to facilitate the worshipper coming closer to GOD. The passages in Isaiah that were cited by 'Proud to be a Jew' don't carry the implication that he believes. It refers to nations and rulers rather than individuals, and specifically deals with the global authority of the messianic king, the facilitated ingathering of world Jewry, and the glory of the rebuilt temple. The beginning of the cited verses in Isaiah Isa 60:3) also states that the "peoples will proceed by your light" a concept quite different than a master-servant relationship.

The idea that the rest of humanity will facilitate the destined role of Jews does have support in Tanach but only in the sense of helping to rebuild ruins, build educational institutes, and the financial support of their Jewish teachers, i.e., Israel will become the educational and religious center of the world.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Gentiles Exist Only To Serve Jews, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (along with several, but many many and many, many, many other Orthodox Rabbis- did I forget to say many, many? in any case "all, but without exception", all of lubovitch rabbis- YbM) Says!
for the simple reason that this is mentioned in the gemore, as well as, as mentioned above by Mr/Ms -happy und proud- "Proud to be a Jew", the inventor of this theory would be none other than the prophet Yeshaaya (Isaiah) who is, according to Christians the announcer of Jesus as Moschi... r'l.
Christians were clever, they rushed and announced themselves as the current house of Israel -replacing us- and we end up as their slaves along with fellow slaves the Moslems. Oysh!
My My, what a mess. Either the writer at JPost, doesn't know any besser or he is trying to fan racial hatred on his own or on behalf of others ennemies of Rabbi Yosef. (he has many).
I don't subscribe to R' Yosef words, but hey, the daf yomi these days is on BT Aveuydo Zoreh.
You don't like his teachings attack the whole lot all the way from Isaiah thru the talmud.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

YAH BABY!

Thank you Rabbi Ovadia Yosef!

Blacks, orientals, skinheads....they all on this earth for ME!!!

If I understand the blessed Rabbi correctly, every hot and to die for uber thin and younger (the younger the better) babe owes every Jew all the bump and grind sex he demands because these sluts, hot skanks and beautiful bitches are here to serve very uncircumcised fat, bald, stinking, overweight and ance face JEW on this earth.

LET WHORE DO ME!!!

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Tell my new best friend and favorite Rabbi that I demand Kimmee Kardashian tonight.

Paris Hilton tomorrow night.

Kimmee Basinger for some MILF action the following night.

Stoya on Shabos.

Please be advised that I will submit my demands for the following week forthwith.

As per Rabbi Ovadias's instructions, I will refuse all overweight, loudmouth, cellulitic, cow ankled, curly haired Jewesses who present themselves for services rendered.

[Moshe aron kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

A Loch In Kopp, This term my mother z'ttl used

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

YL: Thanks. You da man.

[Shtunk]

It's quite obvious to me that this latest rant by the old fart in clerical garb was in reaction to his sexual advances being rebuffed by a non-jew ------ and that was a sheep.

[alternative childcare]

Menachem Mendel III= Otto Weininger

[assist]

Great way to increase true antisemitism.

[sam]

Aki, Emi; tell you what, you explain to your Jewish Children why there are only 13,000,000 of us when had the pogroms/holocaust not occurred there might be 50 to 100 million. Do the Christians need to prove themselves? Yes.

[A. Nuran]

Y. Aharon writes:
While the attitude behind those statements are common in Hareidi circles, expressing them in a public forum is certainly a desecration of the divine name when uttered by a prominent halachic decisor. The sentiments are not only impolitic, they represent a wrong-headed reading of Tanach

No. It's all the more reason to say it loudly and clearly. If we allow scum like this to hiss filth into the ears of the gullible in secret the poison will spread further. If everyone knows they are evil good people will not be taken in. And if it makes a few people embarrassed enough to abandon that repulsive cult leader that's all to the good.

[Mr. Apikoros]

First of all, Sam, your numbers are complete crap.

The Jewish population after the Holocaust was 12 million. It's about 14 million today. That's a growth rate of 16.67% in 65 years.

Assuming the same growth rate, the Jewish population had there been no holocaust would have been 21 million.

How did you arrive at the Jewish population quadrupling? That's a rhetorical question, whose answer is, out of your rectal orifice, like everything else you post.

You have proved yourself. You have proved that you're a shmuck.

[tonda]

You don't like his teachings attack the whole lot all the way from Isaiah thru the talmud.

We're allowed to do that? I thought that was anti-semetic?

So if we break this down even further, the only way NOT to be anti semetic is to accept his beleifs and admit that us non jews are just property and tools of the Jewish Master Race.

This is the kind of thinking that makes any reasonable person go nuts. If you argue the statement, there is always some beard using 2000 year old writing to defend it. If you argue agains the writing, then you are automatically arguing against the entire jewish race/religion. So by simply being a reasonable person and pointing out stupidity where you see it, one becomes that most hated of all creatures the "anti semite."

The only person one is a master of, is himself. Someone needs a quick kick in the balls as a reminder.

[Dave]

Sam, there's an easy answer to promote Judaism, and re-establish our numbers- do kiruv to the non-Jews.
If anyone's interested to help me do this, please e-mail me at: superdave8002@hotmail.com
I am not expecting a flood of e-mails, ha ha ha !

[ad]

There ain't no heaven and there ain't no God, and if by chance, there is one, I couldn't care less.

[emmylou]

Sam,
My late mother was born to Jewish parents, making her, and I, Jewish, although we never practiced the religion. In the 50's, before I was born, my mom entertained notions of becoming more Jewish, perhaps becoming orthodox. She stated examining Judaism and became disgusted by the exclusionary nature of it. When she realized that Jews considered themselves a different breed than "goyim" she said f^$% this, and that was that. We grew up agnostic.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Where are MY uber hot shiksehs!!

Goyim were born only to service ME. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to service the People of Israel. That is why gentiles were created.”

-Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

[Jim]

In the next life, this rabbi will be working at McDonald's.

[Dave]

Emmylou, I have learnt to not take the rabbis (of any faction/ movement) seriously. I personally enjoy studying the Tanach, and I like to daven/ pray at home, and occasionally in synagogue.
It's your heritage, it's your Torah, it's your Tanach. No one can take it from you.
You can interpret it however you wish (although IMHO it is a fairly conservative document). Since I have chosen to believe in this way, I feel much better about my Judaism and strangely enough I've become more observant, although not too much.
Just one man's opinion. I hope that helps (as Dr. Ruth would say).

[al Farabi]

As I've said many times here before, the greatest threat to the jewish people is rabbinic judaism and rabbis - they have always, and continue to put jewish lives in danger with the crap that they excrete out of the apertures in their faces

[Barry]

Emmylou, the mere fact that your late mother may have been born to Jewish parents does not make you a Jew.

The children of Thomas Jefferson were not British despite Thomas being born a British subject and despite his being descended from a long line of loyal subjects of the British Crown.

Being descended from a particular national or ethnic group is a necessary but not sufficient condition to be part of that group.

[Shmarya]

the mere fact that your late mother may have been born to Jewish parents does not make you a Jew.

Jewish law differs with you and considers any child of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, no matter how the child is raised.

[alternative childcare]

Shmarya, you are correct, however she didn't say that it was her mother that was Jewish.

At any rate, this just supports the sociological recognition that nowadays genetics does not determine cultural destiny. The lack of pressure in the democratic space allows for the rise of secular choices. This is why the Catholic theologians dont like democracy and strongly supported Hitler (Carl Schmitt, Erik Peterson, etc).

[Barry]

Why would Emmylou wish to use Jewish law to define her identity when she rejects every other aspect of Jewish identity and law?

Surely Emmylou should be the first to agree that the rule in Jewish Law that Jews can never lose their identity is as ridiculous as the idea that persons born to British subjects can never become citizens of an American Republic but retain their subjugation to the Britain Crown for all eternity, or that Gentiles (or at least Guatemalans) were created to serve Jews (or at least the Kashrus industry).

Don't you think that Emmylou's clinging to this particular Jewish law is only because she wishes to claim Jewish victim status?

[IH]

So, I think this shows 2 things:

1. The Jewish Islam haters who like to raise the whole “dhimmi” topic may want to pause before preaching how evil Islam is in this regard.

2. This demonstrates the degree to which Eidot Mizrach communities were influenced by their Muslim context, in both hashkafa and halacha.

[Shmarya]

Don't you think that Emmylou's clinging to this particular Jewish law is only because she wishes to claim Jewish victim status?

It doesn't matter what she thinks, and you have no way to know what she thinks, anyway.

You don't have the right to turn her into a non-Jew to suit your needs.

[A. Nuran]

In his next life may he be a poor Black lesbian in the world he would love to create.

[Mr. Apikoros]

In his next life, Rabbi Yosef will be a sex slave to some Filipino S & M master.

[Bruce]

I keep on searching for an Orthodox figure that I can respect; one that will show the world the sublime universal truths of my religion; one that will show us Jews we have nothing to fear from modernity. Yet time and time again this community has disappointed me. As we like to say of the Palestinians, they never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity. We stand at a crossroads as a people. I fear we will split into two irreconcilable parts. Indeed, we probably already have. Rabbi Yosef would do well to remember the midrash that says that Jews were not given the Torah because we are better than the nations of the world, i.e., the goyim. We were given it because we are worse: we need it more. Our passions are more ungovernable; our hatreds more profound; and our lusts incapable of being satisfied.

[Dave]

MM3 @12:09 Hilarious !

[Dave]

IH, I am one whose grandparents were all born and raised in Iraq (just good ol' Rav O.Y.). You are quite right, we were very influenced by the hashkafa of the Islamic world. However, by the same token, Ashkenazi Jews were also very influenced by the hashkafa of the Christian/ Western world. Let's all grow beyond that.

[Dave]

Bruce, excellent post.
IMHO, I think the best Jewish religious leader is one who will combine the Modern Orthodox Judaism and Karaite Judaism.
However, he'll probably have a very hard time getting any Jews to agree with him.
He might do better with the non-Jews.

[IH]

Fully agree, Dave. It was not a diss, just an illustration of how Judaism is dynamic.

Adjustment to being Bnei Chorin has been difficult for some, so they cling to past ways claiming halachic authenticity, even when their practice is actually just an older form of cultural adjustment.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Dave,

Thanks for the kind word.

[emmylou]

By Jewish law, I am Jewish, whether you like it or not. I didn't make the law, or agree to the law, but that is the Jewish law. So you are stuck with me, irreligious as I am, I am still Jewish by Jewish standards.

Dave, I am glad that you find comfort within your faith. Peace to you.

My dear departed mother wanted to embrace her Jewish heritage, but upon studying it, found it exclusive and frankly, racist. She then became agnostic. That's how we were raised. We were exposed to all religions and found them, well, silly. People are people, no matter what their religion is. There are good and bad Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, whatever. People are PEOPLE, and their religion generally means nothing. It's what's inside. If you are good inside, it shows, no matter what religion or no religion. It's what's in your heart.

[PishPosh]

Makes you wish the Karaites, minority group that they are, would make a bid for power. See if they can do better then the Babylonian Mafia.

[IH]

But your 2nd post, Dave, I cannot support one iota if I understand you correctly.

To make sure I understand, do you want to see Judaism revert to the goryness of the written Torah as our legal system (e.g. an eys for an eye)?

If not, what do you mean by "combine the Modern Orthodox Judaism and Karaite Judaism"?

[Gladys]

Sam, I am sure that gentiles everywhere thank you for only requiring their dhimmihood to Am Yisroel for a hundred years.

OY wants them to be dhimmis to Jews for eternity, as does Islam.

But you, you mensch, will cut their servitude down to 100 years! Such a deal!

Hey, maybe you can get the goyim to bail you out of that Madoff mess for a start.

[Sifter]

People, there's a reason we don't have a pope. He's a rabbi... he's just ONE rabbi. That's it. Don't get your tzitzit all in a bunch. I don't hate all Reverends because of the utterances of ONE Reverend Wright.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Bruce: check out HaRav Chaim Zimmermann (he was the last student of HaRav Soleveitchik) His book Torah and Reason certainly interesting. Look harder, its a big world.

[Yoel Mechanic]

I'm reminded of an aphorism from Eric Hoffer (please look him up, he will not disappoint). He said that the tools the weak use to survive become the weapons of extreme oppression in the hands of the strong. R. Yosef is using the tools of the weak. For him, and his audience there is probably no danger. It is only when such concepts fall into truly strong super-national movements that one would see world tyranny (and this has definitely happened in the past).

[A. Nuran]

Eric Hoffer is one of the most underrated thinkers of the last century.

[Barry]

Emmylou, you are only Jewish by Jewish Law by reason of the application of principles derived from patriarchal custom and Roman Law which were once part of common law and remain part of traditional Jewish Law and cannon law.
Under patriarchal law a child adopts the status of his father if he is legitimate and his mother if he is not. (That is because a woman automatically takes on her husbands status on marriage because she is dependent on him).
The Torah Law forbids the marriage of Jewish women to gentile men and accordingly under Jewish Law your parents were not lawfully married and you are (and there is no nice way of putting it) a bastard in the true sense of the word.

By declaring yourself Jewish, you are declaring that you accept patriarchal law is the only basis of identity, that Jewish women cannot enter into valid marriages with gentile men, that your dear departed mother was a fallen woman and that you and your children are bastards!

Emmylou if you are not truly offended by the above and accept your mother's disgrace, then who am I to deny your Jewishness.
If you refute the above, then you refute being categorized as Jewish by traditional Jewish Law then I respect that refutation of Jewishness as well. What you cannot do is pick and choose. You cannot say I refute the prohibition against intermarriage and/or patriarchal system of a woman taking her husband's status on lawful marriage but I want to be considered together with my children as Jewish bastards on that criteria.

For Emmylou to declare that I am a Jew (because my mom was Jewish) whether you like it or not or equivalent to her declaring that I am a bastard and my children are bastards whether you like it or not.

I await hearing her declaring that.

[sam]

Gladys, I don't believe (and never said) that Christians should be subservient to us; merely that they should treat us decently (e.g. the way they treat other Christians) for a hundred years or so, and then Herredi and other Jews might get rid of that chip on their shoulder;

And Emylou, in a world that is so full of variations of Judaism that you might find acceptable (from Modern Orthodox to Reform), don't understand why you are relying on what your mom said 60 years ago. Time to grow up and do your own investigation.

[Dave]

IH, I mean by taking the best of Modern Orthodox Judaism and combining it with the best of Karaite Judaism. Ie. the strengths of each, and dumping the weaknesses of each.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Emmylou believes, along with most Chasids, that Israel is an illegitimate state.

Thus Emmylou already has much in common with the Toyrah-humping Chasids.

[Dave]

Sam, I agree with you to an extent.
However, in my humble opinion, the only way the Christians (or the Arabs) will treat us well is if there are more Jews.
Don't you all think the situation of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle would change if there were 180 million Jews instead of 13 million? How about European anti-Semitism? Don't you think that the anti-Semites would shut up if there were 180 million Jews in the workld instead of only
13 million. This figure of 180 million represents only 2% of the projected world population in 2050. We have the money to do this massive kiruv effort to the non-Jews. Thanks to the internet, we have the technology. We can also copy the schluchim method of Chabad, but without their idolatry. So if anyone is interested, please contact me at superdave8002@hotmail.com
I am very serious. This really can work provided one is willing to consider doing kiruv to the non-Jews. We've tried everything else from haredism to reformism and everything in between to keep our numbers stable. It has not worked. Let's try something new for a change.

[chabib]

Will this mean that one day I can go
to a Howard Johnson's resturant be served
a cup of coffee by a non-Jewish waiter
or waitress and they will pay for it,
and I will not have to leave a tip ?

[Yoel Mechanic]

Nuran: most definitely. Here is another relevant tidbit from Eric Hoffer; sometimes to get from point A to point B, a movement must use the most circuitous routes and outlandish rhetoric. Its human nature that one cannot often follow a straight line. This lesson is helpful in understanding Chareidim (they are mass movements, and Hoffer's lessons here are most relevant, and lead to understanding without all the teeth gnashing)

[Simon Rose]

What a Idiot.

When are the normal Jews going to run these jokers out of business?

[Dave]

Simon,
Answer: when normal Jews take back the Tanach.

[Apikorus]

Eric Hoffer- " Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power". Nuff said.

[effie]

Will this mean that one day I can go
to a Howard Johnson's resturant be served
a cup of coffee by a non-Jewish waiter
or waitress and they will pay for it,
and I will not have to leave a tip ?

Of course, chabib. But, you'll still be arrested and charged with defrauding an innkeeper.

Posted by: chabib |

[Mr. Apikoros]

Goyim exist only to serve Jews.

Rabbi Yosef exists only to serve time.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Apikorus, or Mr. A (not sure if the same person, but I always enjoy your posts). There is a lot Hoffer had to say on this issue: he actually liked certain mass movements, and distinguished between good true believers, and movements that went sour, and he gave criteria that lets one make some good guesses as to how things turn out. Issues hinge on the ability to inspire self-sacrifice in adherents, the role of non-creative intellectuals (this was his big chidush imo) also VERY important are the enemies a movement chooses (do they choose strong or weak enemies). Choosing weak enemies is a sign of a weak movement, etc. I really like Hoffer a lot because he wasn't content to just condemn movements, but he really wanted to understand. So apply his lessons here: all movements are based on self-sacrifice, inspire various degrees of intolerance for outsiders, focus on the distance past and the glorious future, but HATE the present, have non-rational or irrational theories of history, at least in part. Some movements, albeit fanatic, actually do a lot of good (Hoffer really liked the American Revolution and also Zionism), well known movements are also very destructive, but *all* share various degrees of the common features he outlined in detail in "The True Believer". So how does, say, the various Jewish religious movements stack up in his view? Which are in the revival phase? which have strong enemies or weak enemies? which can inspire self-sacrifice? some of the Jewish movements do not meet his definition of a mass movement, and some do. Also, he had to insight to state that success of a movement hinges on knowing when to turn it off (if such a thing even possible...eg, French or Russian Revolution which could not be shut down until it was burnt out) Now, according to Paul Johnson, you get the impression that the Jewish mass movements are special in the sense that they do not conform to the expected rules of history (also lots of insights there too).

[Hometown Postville]

The battle-cry is so often "anti-semetic" : Does anti-gentile carry any weight?

[Edan]

As a non-Jew decended paternally from Jews, this type of attitude about "non-us" is indeed revolting, yet in my opinion, sadly, the Jews developed this defense mechanism out of necessity, and Judaism likely would not have survived without it. It is no accident that our own perceived best interests and G-d's will often conflict.
G-d would have had no need to command us to love one's neighbor if we had been inclined to do so from the get go. This is a great test of all times, perhaps we will rise above, or perhaps we will fail miserably. But we must do our best, and realize that our hope comes not from the work of our bloodstained hands, but rather from Big-guns upstairs.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Yoel:

Mr. Apikoros (or occasionally Mr. Apikorus) and Mr. A. are indeed the same person.

There's somebody who's Ah-pee-chorus and someone who occasionally posts as "Apikorus" (no "Mr."). Those people are not me.

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Eric Hoffer.

[Yoel Mechanic]

More Hoffer Wisdom: The ability to generate heresies is not a sign of weakness. On the contrary it shows a strong mass movement. (my two cents: for example, have you ever heard of the modern Unitarian movement spawning some break away movement? :)

[emmylou]

Barry, my father's parents were also Jewish. Does this change the way you view me?

[sam]

Emmylou, what do you care about Barry anyway? You've said that you are of Jewish descent from both your mother and father, but failed to explore Judaism because of what your mother felt 60 years ago. Isn't it about time you grew up and did your own work - anything from Modern Orthodoxy to Reform might very will meet your spiritual needs and bring you back to Judaism. In the time you're posting here you could do something real and find out about Judaism. Why not do it?

[Barry]

Emmylou, it makes no difference whether your descended from a Jewish father, mother or both. You can still by intention and action abandon your Jewishness just like the American colonists by their intentions and actions abandoned their Britishness.

Let us say a woman married a non-Jew in 1920 and converted to Christianity. She gave birth to a daughter in 1940. That daughter married a non-Jew and had twins, a boy and girl both born in 1960. These twin themselves married non-Jews and each has a daughter. All the descendents of the great-grandmother lived as Christians. Indeed the great grandchildren (like most great grandchildren knew nothing about their great grandmother other than her non-Jewish married name). It is only when one of these great grandchildren took an interest in family history, did she find out that her great grandmother's maiden name was Kesternbaum and she was born Jewish. If the 'maternal descent' rule was sufficient rather necessary to attribute Jewishness then one of the great grand daughters would be considered a gentile whilst the other would be a Jewish bastard notwithstanding they share the same one Jewish great grandparent (out of eight) and notwithstanding that they both lead completely non-Jewish lives. This is obviously ridiculous. Jewish identity requires something extra.
Just as a person can acquire a nationality or domicle by naturalisation, so can he lose it by abandonment.
Shmarya says that Jewish Law does not allow for abandonment and he may be correct in that but only because Jewish Law has a lacuna on that issues. Laws evolve over time to tackle questions that are brought before courts. You will find no Roman Law on copyright, or Canon Law on radio laws. Until relatively recently, Jewish courts never had to consider the question of abandonment since someone who had abandoned Judaism was hardly likely to go to a Jewish Court to seek some remedy. He would go to the civil courts. It is for that reason that the question 'Who is a Jew' has no urgency in the US. It is only since the establishment of the State of Israel that this question has become urgent primarly because non-religious immigrants cannot get married as they would otherwise wish to (by civil marriage).

Outside Israel, some people wish to use their descent from Jews as suggesting that they could not be hostile to Jews or their interests. It is of course somewhat infantile. It is like arguing that because Hitler was German, he could never be accused of not having Germany's best interests at heart! Leon Trotsky for all his faults, never claimed to be a Jew having abandon his identity despite being born of Jewish parents.

Emillou, I do not doubt for a moment that you would suggest that maternal descent be the only criteria for judging identity other than for Jews. You already state that you regard that 'law' as silly. You only do so because you are racist. So Emmylou, I will not give you the satisfaction of being considered a Jewish bastard. I view you as a racist non Jew.

[Yoel Mechanic]

More Hoffer wisdom: He felt that America was not a good place for mass movements in general ( "they all eventually turn into a racket" paraphrase, eg. the communists he knew in San Francisco got into real estate) He advised that community building was a more productive venue for America. btw: his lessons are still helpful for understanding the middle east.

[Shmarya]

If the 'maternal descent' rule was sufficient rather necessary to attribute Jewishness then one of the great grand daughters would be considered a gentile whilst the other would be a Jewish bastard notwithstanding they share the same one Jewish great grandparent (out of eight) and notwithstanding that they both lead completely non-Jewish lives. This is obviously ridiculous. Jewish identity requires something extra.

You can rant on all you want but, quite frankly, you don't have any idea what you're saying.

If there is a verifiable unbroken maternal Jewish line, the person is Jewish, period.

He or she has all the Jewish legal obligations that the greatest rabbi has.

I'm sorry actual Judaism doesn't fit with your worldview.

[Barry]

Shmarya, it is not as uncomplicated as you imagine

http://www.kolhamevaser.com/2010/09/analysis-of-the-israeli-high-court-jewish-apostates-and-the-law-of-return/

[Shmarya]

Please.

From the conclusion of that article:

"according to Halakhah, the mere desire to rejoin the Jewish community is sufficient."

The person is halakhicly Jewish and is obligated in all mitzvot.

However, if the person is practicing another religion, we can opt to withhold optional things from them and honors, like aliyot.

But if the person says, I want to be a part of the Jewish community, then we treat him as any other Jew.

That's how it works.

[Bibbi]

This is pure Talmud. The Jews invented racial supremacy long before the Nazis did.