Messianic Jews To Open Large Missionary Center In Haredi Brooklyn

"If you walk out the door and turn left, you are in an Orthodox Jewish community," says president Mitch Glaser. "And if you turn right, you will be able to buy the best borscht you have ever tasted."

A Ministry Grows in Brooklyn
Messianic leaders explore new strategies for reaching the Jewish community in the U.S. and Israel.
Tony Carnes • Christianity Today

Earlier this year, Chosen People Ministries, a Messianic Jewish organization, purchased an 11,000-square-foot building in the heart of Orthodox Brooklyn.

"If you walk out the door and turn left, you are in an Orthodox Jewish community," says president Mitch Glaser. "And if you turn right, you will be able to buy the best borscht you have ever tasted."

Once rehabbed, the building will allow the organization to provide substance-abuse counseling and to teach English as a second language. It will house a library for Messianic research and a 150-seat sanctuary. It will also host an accredited pastoral training program in partnership with an evangelical seminary.…

"Most ministries and organizations need to reinvent themselves after some time, or their methods and strategies can become stultified," Glaser told CT. "This was true of Chosen People, which had accomplished great things over the course of over 100 years of ministry. Reaching Jewish people in a Jewish way is at the heart of our time-tested strategy."

For Glaser, a first strategic step was moving the organization's headquarters from Charlotte, North Carolina, back home to New York City. Another step was rethinking strategy based on significant changes among Jews and Messianic believers. Changes include the following:

• The emigration of two million Soviet Jews, who left Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and are impacting Jewish populations in the U.S. and Israel. Some 20 percent of Israel's current Jewish population is from the former Soviet Union.

• The revival of Orthodox Judaism, which is bolstering the influence of Orthodox Jews. Precise numbers are hard to come by, but an estimated 525,000 American Jews are Orthodox, about 10 percent of the American Jewish population. In Israel, about one million Jews are Orthodox, about 17 percent of the country's Jewish population.

Orthodox families also have the highest birthrate of any Jewish subgroup, so the Orthodox are becoming a greater percentage of all Jews. This means that outreach must explain the gospel in ways that are comprehensible to the Orthodox.…

Glaser believes attitudes are changing. Messianic Jews are more willing to overlook ill will coming from the Jewish community. In a few cases, Messianic believers are looking to take their place in Jewish community affairs. "As long as there is clear fidelity to the essentials of the faith [and] the preaching of the gospel, we will encourage Jewish believers in Jesus to remain part of the Jewish community.

"It is important to try to lessen the potential conflict between the Jewish community and our preaching of the gospel whenever possible," he says. "Our methods and strategies need to change with the day, yet we must at all costs communicate the facts of the gospel without compromise."

[Hat Tip: Bernard Mandelbaum • Heeb Magazine.]

Comments

[Robert Wisler]

Well, Chabad has a large missionary center in hareidi Brooklyn, what's the big deal?

[the usual chaim]

you may disagree with chabad, but there is a significant difference between the two. even the hard core meshichists do not regard schneerson as a diety and have consistently put the elokists in cherem when and where they are discovered. meshichists, though certainly following a significantly off-center view that i do not advocate, do not, nonetheless, reject any of the 13 ikarim - (stupid, yes, heretical, no) - rambam says one must believe that the messiah will come, not how. Belief in the divinity of jesus, however, violates multiple ikarim.

furthermore reading the gospels as one would any other religious literature and trying to extract useful material is one thing... buber did this repeatedly. But these people are not just sharing their wisdom they are intent on turning jews into christians. one cannot be a jew and accept jesus as lord and savior any more than "jesus" in that sentence could be replaced with "the rebbe". but that is precisely what it means to be a christian and that is precisely what this and other similar groups want jews to claim and, yet, perversely, to claim they are still jews.

[Yoel Mechanic]

One does not prevail over an ideology simply by hating it, at least not in this case. The resource I have found most useful here is Rabbi Tovia Singer, see outreachjudaism.org That said, I wonder exactly where in Brooklyn this building will be.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: the usual chaim | September 25, 2010 at 09:58 PM

The problem, Chaim, is that the early Church had the same arguments about the divinity of J as Chabad does about the divinity of Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

On top of that, the early Church also kept Jewish law.

[harold]

Real informative - Brooklyn.

Williamsburg? Crown Heights? Boro Park, Flatbush?

Which neighborhood is to be so blessed?

[s(b.)]

I laughed when I read the headline. I wonder who will welcome them to the neighborhood.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

As a Jewish born and raised woman who is now Christian, I am no less Jewish. It just doesn't work that way, and any frumster will tell you that.

I feel conflicted about Messianic Judaism. On the one hand, if people keep the mitzvot and observe them, they are obviously Jewish, no matter who they believe is the messiah. They can even believe Jesus is the messiah. Now believing that Jesus is god, and then bringing in virgin births and all this other stuff starts to get a big murky. And yet it seems like those who oppose the term messianic judaism nit pick about "acceptable" beliefs, picking through tiny strands that don't really matter, and doing so out of fear, because without trying desperately to cling to ways to 'disqualify' messianic jews from 'belonging' to Judaism.

On the other hand, I wish they would just call themselves Jewish Christians. It does feel sneaky to have this "messianic judaism" business. Every Orthodox Jew is a "messianic" Jew in that they believe in the concept of messiah. I do think many messianic Jews believe passionately in Judaism despite being Christian, but it seems like a missionary tactic to me. And it's annoying. I think, just use the word CHRISTIAN. Just say, JESUS. Why do you have to ramble on about "chassidei yeshua" and whatever. I mean, ok , I get it, you feel that's the right word. And yet, when introducing yourself to Jews, why don't you just put up a cross? Or use the words CHRISTIANS or JESUS? It's because you know that many Jews would immediately be offended, or react, or become uninterested. But that is no excuse to hide it. And I do believe that refusing to state up front, up right, is deceptive. Obviously deceptive. I'm actually planning to write a blog post about it soon.

[alternative childcare]

Mamzer- you aren't Jewish, don't worry about it. You state on your blog that only your father was Jewish. So don't be deceptive about yourself, either.

[Garnel Ironheart]

First of all, there is one ikkar the Lubavitch meshichists deny - the 12th one about waiting for Moshiach. According to them he already came so they're not waiting for him to arrive, just to reappear.
But what I find interesting is that no one has noted the obvious connection - not a few months after the Muslim community announced they would open a mosque near Ground Zero, the Chrisians announce they're opening a missionary centre in Borough Park. Coincidence?

[shmuel]

1. If they set up shop in Willy, CH, or Boro Park, there will be arson attacks, severe beatings and possibly even a death or two. And I wouldn't cry one bit over it. How about I set up a Jewish outreach shop in WhereamI, OK or Godforsaken, GA, and tell Christians they have no truth to their religion, based as it is on twisted translations, verses read wildly out of context, falsity upon falsity, outrageous inconsistencies in their own gospels, starting from the infancy narratives to the alleged "resurrection," to beliefs that are nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible, including the "Second Coming," a "Trinity," human sacrifice as acceptable, that the blood of a dead Jew is needed for reconciliation with God, that the Torah is obsolete, the the Jews have been "superseded," on and on ad nauseam. What response do you think I'd get? A baseball bat to my head, that's what. And that's precisely what's coming at them in Brooklyn. THE NYPD and FDNY will be busy non-stop over there. The Chasidim will ignore all laws and beat them all to a pulp. I will throw a kiddush for every dead missionary. Let em come, they'll get a very hot welcome.
2. My understanding is that the "early" (i.e. the "Jerusalem") church did not believe Jesus was God, since that belief was only codified in Nicaea in the early 4th century. They thought he was the Messiah. The fact that he accomplished nothing the Jewish Messiah was supposed to accomplish didn't bother them, any more than it bothers Chabad today. When you are confronted by failure, you close your eyes, live with the cognitive dissonance and suck it up. If it makes no sense to you, call it a "mystery," try to get other idiots who don't know their ass from their elbow in the Bible to also believe it, and waste your life believing narishkeit.
3. Which brings us to "MamzerHakodesh," above. You say you were Jewish born and raised, but my guess is that you never received even a smidgen's worth of a real, decent, quality Jewish education. You fell for some silly arguments, don't know a scintilla's worth of Biblical Hebrew, never bothered to see why Jews martyred themselves for 2000 years rather than believe bogus arguments from a genuine false Messiah. You poor thing. You don't have a clue, but you feel you know everything. But it's not too late. I am willing to debate you, explain you, interpret you anything you need. I would ask you keep an open mind and accept that alternative interpretations exist, rather than your current, closed-minded Christian take on the matter. After you see the 50th instance of crackpot Christian misinterpretation, you'll come back to the few, the proud, the Jews.
Whadaya say?

[shmuel]

"The Chasidim will ignore all laws and beat them all to a pulp."
What I mean is: There will be no way to arrest and prosecute, since they all look alike, all 30,00 of them, there will be no witnesses, and no one will squeal. Brooklyn: where the missionary roaches check in but they don't check out. Let the games begin!

[shmuel]

"Mamzer- you aren't Jewish, don't worry about it. You state on your blog that only your father was Jewish. So don't be deceptive about yourself, either."

Oops, thanks. Didn't know that. Offer to teach you the truth is hereby rescinded. You may return to your regularly-scheduled program of falsity.

[shmuel]

But wait...according to your blog, your mother is Jewish. Offer reinstated. Sorry.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

That's right. My mom is Jewish. And so am I. Of course, I would be Jewish whichever of my parents were Jewish. But one thing I'm proud to say I'm not, is a cunt. The real reason you could never "show me the truth" is because you seem to have replaced being "Jewish" with being a cunt. I understand that you keep membership to your cuntish club very exclusive, and I would never dream of trying to force you to recognize me as someone as close-minded, arrogant, racist, ignorant, presumptuous, self-important, egotistical, fearful, passive aggressive or judgmental as you. Please, just remember two things. You aren't talking about being Jewish, you're talking about being a cunt. And the second thing, is that I have no desire to learn the truth about being a cunt. You be a cunt, I'll be me. Keep your club, I'm happy outside it.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

And by the way, I was raised in the Jewish community, attended several Jewish schools, and spent some time studying at an Aish HaTorah seminar in Jerusalem several years ago. Maybe I would think more like you if I had been raised in the Cunt community, and had attended a seminar at Aish HaCunt, or Fire of the Cunt, translated. Sorry, don't bother trying to explain things to me. I have not received as much cunt education as you and my mind may never grasp the secret joy of being a cunt.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

But one thing I'm proud to say I'm not, is a cunt.

Someone called you a cunt? In this thread?

[Menachem Mendel lll]

SOUNDS good to me!

Jews want a mosque built near the 9/11 site.

This is the next logical step in Ahavas Yisroel and Tikkun Olam.

My fellow Yidden fear not for when the MOSCIACH arrives it will all be taken care of and sorted out. In the meantime daven, bench and do mitzvot 24/7/365 and try cut down on the Lashon Hara.

[nachos]

I will throw a kiddush for every dead missionary. Let em come, they'll get a very hot welcome
Posted by: shmuel | September 25, 2010 at 11:15 PM

I will throw two kiddishes for every Jew like you that gets killed. It is Jews like you that caused antisemitism.

Shmuel, what does the Talmud say is the reason we got kicked out of the land the second time? You are a perfect example.

[harold]

I will throw two kiddishes for every Jew like you that gets killed

Amazing! Simply Amazing!

[jay]

MhK, you're rantings aren't provocative, they're misogynist.

So far as "Messianic Judaism" goes, the Elokists in Chabad are doing pretty much the same thing nowadays.

[the usual chaim]

"The problem, Chaim, is that the early Church had the same arguments about the divinity of J as Chabad does about the divinity of Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

On top of that, the early Church also kept Jewish law."

Shmarya - I know. i have no argument with you there. I think the real questions are
a) if, without question the birkat haminim in shmoneh esrei is about christians specifically
b)at what point - in relation to christian history- it was authored: i.e. before or after belief in the divinity of jesus became widespread.
c) if before, on what basis they were declared heretics insofar as I am not convinced that belief in a returning messiah technically violates the ikarim and these ikarim are simply restatements of mishnaic/talmudic doctrines (at least as rambam wishes to present them). if so, i question whether on this basis alone they would have been condemned. In the censored text of the mishnah torah he says of jesus:

"He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him."

- it seems to me that (at least rambams view of) the basis of the rabbinic condemnation was jesus' view of the law; not his messianism per se. even though early christians may have been observant in certain respects we do not know how they ultimately interpreted the meaning of the law and this interpretation may have been heretical.

also, someone mentioned nicea - the belief may have been formalized there, but it could not have been formalized there had it not become widespread before that.

another person suggested that chabad violates the 12th ikar - i am also not convinced this is true: they also believe the messiah is to come. only the most radical actually believe that the waiting is over and there is nothing left to wait for. these are the people who eat on tisha b'av and they were put in cherem by chabad batei dinim.

again, I am not in agreement with this doctrine. I think it is idiotic. but there is a difference between idiocy and heresy. i do not think it makes most of its believers heretics

[Shmarya]

What the Rambam felt or believed 1000 years after the fact is not relevant to this discussion.

The minim bracha was added because in those days the Christian Church's prayers and Jewish prayers were indistinguishable.

Because synagogue prayers were led out loud by a prayer leader and worshipers fulfilled their prayer obligation by answering amen to each bracha, the Sages added the minim bracha to make it difficult for a min to lead prayers or participate as worshiper. It also served as a sign to Jews that congregations which did not say the minim bracha were not kosher.

Past this, if I follow your logic what you're really claiming is the early Church in Jerusalem thought J was God. But there is no proof for your claim – although some may have believed this.

[the usual chaim]

^ Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, (Eerdmans, 2005), page 650.

says that the belief in the divinity of jesus was prevalent from the earliest stages of christianity... before nicea.

- what you are saying as to the psychological function of the bracha is accurate, but not to the point. i am asking as to what doctrine - specifically - it was directed against if, indeed, it was directed against christians. issues of law, theology, or messianism (or some or all). I would contend that the crux of condemnation centered on the first and second.

-what the rambam says should be taken into consideration. i agree that he should be read with some skepticism historically speaking, but what is important is not what claims he makes for history, but the theoretical position he takes: i.e. on what basis would jesus and the christians have been condemned? insofar as he would base his answer on materials and traditions available at the period under discussion his conclusion represents a plausible reconstruction of what those rabbis may have felt. Definite? no, plausible and worth our consideration? yes.

[Shmarya]

^ Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, (Eerdmans, 2005), page 650.

says that the belief in the divinity of jesus was prevalent from the earliest stages of christianity... before nicea.

And?

There are many other scholars who disagree.

Besides that, there is a fact you miss.

A large segment of the Jewish people appear to have believed the messiah was both a man and a demigod.

what the rambam says should be taken into consideration. i agree that he should be read with some skepticism historically speaking, but what is important is not what claims he makes for history, but the theoretical position he takes: i.e. on what basis would jesus and the christians have been condemned?…

I suggest you study hilchot melachim in the uncensored version of the Mishne Torah. In it, the Rambam makes it very clear why he held that J was a false messiah.

The Rambam rejects a second coming of the messiah and focuses on that an on potential messiahs who do not complete the tasks mandated for the messiah before being killed or dying.

And, again, you cannot project backward from the Rambam to rabbis living 1000 years before him and decide this is why they banned the early Church.

[the usual chaim]

there may be scholars who disagree (cite them) but the point is that the very fact that there is a discussion to be had precludes the possibility of presuming in an unqualified manner that the rabbis definitely condemned the christians for their messianic beliefs and that, therefore, meshichist lubavitchers are heretics. It is unclear. furthermore, just because people regarded the messiah as a demigod does not mean that the rabbis did not also regarded this as heretical as well.

i will have to re read the uncensored text (have read it before) before commenting on your interpretation. Although I grant to you that it is a stretch regardless to project backwards from the rambam.

[SJ]

>> There are many other scholars who disagree.

The book of John (1:1-2) says that Jesus is God. Unfortunately for skeptics, this has nothing to do with Paul's writings.

[Shmarya]

…precludes the possibility of presuming in an unqualified manner that the rabbis definitely condemned the christians for their messianic beliefs and that, therefore, meshichist lubavitchers are heretics.

The reason Chabad believers in the messianship of Menachem Mendel Schneerson would be heretics is because of the uncensored Rambam.

[jay]

Additionally , there are Chabadniks who treat Schneerson as a deity. So far as the early Xian church goes, there were many sects, including those who treated Jesus as diety, messiah excluding diety, prophet, etc. There were Gnostics who believed the world was ruled by a malevolent entity known as the Demi-Urge and others as well. The early Xians in Judea, particularly those following Simeon and Peter were "meshichists" and not "elokists"

[FedUpwithJudaism]

Bah, one camp of maniacs trying to convince another camp of maniacs to switch tribal god-images. It's a load of crap either way.

The Jews are largely a bunch of hypocrites and the Christians are too. I used to be haredi - then I came to my senses. I won't adopt another religion (why trade one insanity for another?) but I don't consider myself Jewish either.

[Adam Neira]

Jesus was a real person, but not a prophet. Read the Tanach and then the New Testament and if you cannot see the copying that went on, then you are lying to yourself. On the spiritual mountain of life some people choose to stop at a conceptual ledge and decide never to leave. The Koran is a further ersatz copy of the Tanach for the easy digestion of pagan desert dwellers of Arabia 650 ace.

Many Christians are waiting for his imminent return but it is just not going to happen. This cognitive dissonance between what they hope will happen and what is actually happening leads to a conceptual dead end.

[harold]

All that I know is that they better secure their trash bins, keep them gated and not too close to the building. In fact it should be in a fireproof locked shed monitored by cameras.

[jay]

with a self-contained automatic fire suppression system.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

Jay - touche. Yes, you're right. I know. Bad, bad, bad. Still felt great.

[Kopher]

Well well well, all the nerves are ripped bare. Hmmmm. I, myself, as a modern orthodox tired of the racketeering felonious methods of the penguins would welcome people who use their same tactics against them - just to show them how it feels.

[the usual chaim]

"ט ואם לא הצליח עד כה, או נהרג--בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה, והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דויד השלמים הכשרים שמתו. ולא העמידו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא לנסות בו רבים, שנאמר "ומן המשכילים ייכשלו, לצרוף בהן ולברר וללבן--עד עת קץ: כי עוד, למועד" (ראה דנייאל יא,לה).

י אף ישוע הנוצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח, ונהרג בבית דין--כבר נתנבא בו דנייאל, שנאמר "ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" (דנייאל יא,יד). וכי יש מכשול גדול מזה: שכל הנביאים דיברו שהמשיח גואל ישראל ומושיעם, ומקבץ נדחיהם ומחזק מצוותן; וזה גרם לאבד ישראל בחרב, ולפזר שאריתם ולהשפילם, ולהחליף התורה, ולהטעות רוב העולם לעבוד אלוה מבלעדי ה'."

shmarya - if these are the passages you are referring to I am not convinced that you are correct. it does not say he was executed BECAUSE he "imagined that he was the messiah", only that he imagined that he was the messiah and was executed: without specifying the reason. Rambam's comment as to the historical effect of jesus' work (violence and denigration of the law) cannot be regarded as a reason for his execution because that violence occured only AFTER his death, not before, and, as you point out, the early christians were halakhically observant - therefore Jesus was not necessarily executed for promoting violation of the law. these passages, therefore, do not give us sufficient information to determine what rambam's views as to the reason for the execution were. if someone used this as a basis for accusing chabad of similar heresy s/he would be guilty of reading into the text what s/he wishes to see, not what is - without doubt - there. it is on the basis of the ikarim that one would be able to determine what rambam would consider a heretical belief and, as I said above, I do not think belief in a second coming violates the 12th ikar insofar as it mandates a belief in A coming and does not specify the precise nature of that general belief mandated. Again, stupidity and heresy are not the same.

[the usual chaim]

on further thought: the phrase

"ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" would seem to indicate why he was executed - it discusses a false prophet. thus, it would seem jesus was esecuted for being a false prophet, not for being a failed messiah. nor would his followers be heretics for believing a second coming, only for following a false prophet. messiah and a prophet are two different things for rambam.

[Shmarya]

Please.

"If he doesn't succeed up until this point [i.e., fulfilling all the things the messiah must fulfill that the Rambam has just listed] or is killed he should be considered like any just and righteous king of the Davidic Dynasty who died."

In other words, after a long explanation of the failings of J (later censored out by Christians), the Rambam concludes by explaining that a second coming is not part of Judaism.

And, again, for the third time, the Rambam lived 1000 years later. He can't speak to why J was killed or who killed him.

All he can speak to is Jewish law, which is clear in prohibiting a second coming, whether or not the particular messiah candidate is a false messiah, a false prophet or completely righteous.

[the usual chaim]

my point is not whether it is part of judaism or not. I agree that it is quite clear that it is not. The question is whether or not this belief counts as heresy on a technical level. there is a difference. for example - in moreh nevuchim rambam maintains that although it is FALSE (and therefore not a part of true judaism) to believe that god has emotions, one is not a heretic for believing this.

I am focusing on the rambam at this point out of deference to your own comment that the present day evaluation of whether the meshichistim are heretics depends on the text of hilkhot melachim. i already acknowledged that you are correct that the views of the rabbis at the time of the early christians cannot be ascertained from the rambam's view. i also already showed that it is not at all clear that the opposition of those rabbis was based on issues of messianism per se, and may have had much more to do with theological (not eschatological) issues.

furthermore, by the very passage you cite we see that, at least in rambam's view, a false messiah is not necessarily regarded as a heretic... he coud even be considered a "righteous king"

[Shmarya]

furthermore, by the very passage you cite we see that, at least in rambam's view, a false messiah is not necessarily regarded as a heretic... he coud even be considered a "righteous king"

That would only be if he was a crowned anointed king when he lived.

Past that, you err because you incorrectly assume J is the paradigm for all false messiahs.

You also incorrectly assume that whatever the Rambam thought of heresy is our view of heresy.

You do not seem know the history of the J era and can't really speak to it based on rabbinic texts that were written 1000 years later, or rabbinic texts written 700 years later and hundreds of miles away.

Do you understand the concept of a demigod?

[Shmarya]

In other words, it doesn't really matter what the Rebbe was; it matters what his followers think he is.

Many Chabadniks picture the Rebbe as inseparable from God. The Rebbe answers their questions and intercedes on their behalf. He gives them advice and consul. It is the Rebbe who is the source of all the good they have and when they pray, it is the Rebbe they have in mind. He is the messiah and will return to finish his mission.

They have created a figure that is exactly like the early Church's understanding of Jesus.

And that is what matters.

[Shmarya]

furthermore, by the very passage you cite we see that, at least in rambam's view, a false messiah is not necessarily regarded as a heretic... he coud even be considered a "righteous king"

No – unless you do not understand the concept of a false messiah.

A false messiah is a person who is not and never would have been the messiah but pawns himself off as the messiah or deludes himself into thinking he is the messiah.

To quote the Rambam again, a person who does many of the things the messiah is supposed to do but passes away before doing all of them – if he was an anointed king of the Jews – "should be considered a like any just and righteous king of the Davidic dynasty who died."

The Rambam does not envision a messianic candidate to be a non-royal.

Therefore, anyone who was a non-royal who proclaimed himself to be the messiah or whose followers did so after his death, is, by the Rambam's definition, a false prophet and/or a false messiah.

Belief in that false prophet/false messiah is heretical once the false prophet/false messiah dies.

This is in part why Jewish messiahs always claimed kingship and descent from David, and it is one of the reasons why it is common for followers of these false prophets/false messiahs to claim their prophet/messiah didn't really die.

[Raphael Gamaroff]

Shnuel said:
"My understanding is that the "early" (i.e. the "Jerusalem") church did not believe Jesus was God, since that belief was only codified in Nicaea in the early 4th century."

Usual Chaim is correct when he says "someone mentioned nicea - the belief may have been formalized there, but it could not have been formalized there had it not become widespread before that."

Shmariya said: " if I follow your logic what you're really claiming is the early Church in Jerusalem thought J was God. But there is no proof for your claim – although some may have believed this."

Others have also expressed their opinion on the matter.

The Epistles of Paul state very clearly that Jesus was divine. For example, Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."

Colosssians was written about 60 AD. The Epistles were written before the Gospels.

I am a Christian JEW (yep, my mamele's name was Feiga, and my mamele's mamele's name was YAWWWNele). I also would like to be a JewISH (Jew Ish, get it - tee hee) Christian but one Jew told me, I couldn't. If you want to know why not, I'll tell, if you ask.

Onedaringjew.

[the usual chaim]

you claim belief in a false messiah is heretical after they die but you have still to demonstrate textually that this is the case. Again, I am not agreeing with the view nor advocating others believe it, but there is a difference between error and heresy.

there is also a difference between a prophet and a messiah, a distinction you blur.

I am not confusing our discussion of rambam and the separate issue of what was going on during the life of J. while i am not a scholar of the historical period in which J lived you are not either. I do understand what a demigod is and that was precisely part of my point: it is likely that the early christians were regarded as heretics because they deified J, NOT because they regarded him as the messiah.

while you are correct that many lubavitchers treat the rebbe in the ways you describe that is another issue entirely. we have been discussing the issue of a second coming, NOT divinatory practices.

as to your reference to royal/nonroyal, you know as well as I that lubavitchers regard the rebbe as being descended from the house of david. what else would the rambam have expected? there were no jewish kings in his day, so if it is an ikar to believe "each day that he will come" then he must have believed that at some point a person claiming davidic descent who is not yet royal would become a king and the messiah.

what is "our idea of heresy"? heresy as we understand it is a halakhic category defined by rambam and his successors. it is not a sentimental statement of "what many jews believe" but a technical term that refers to particular mandatory doctrines. "our idea of heresy" follows the rambam. If anything, he was regarded as particularly strict in the matter and many subsequent thinkers were much more forgiving as to what is a non-heretical error (famous example being the raavad, who ruled that believing god has a body is erroneous but not heretical). If by "heresy" you mean something other than that, something, therefore, without legal status that just reflects common opinion then fine, no argument. you are right. but you have yet to demonstrate how the belief in question fits into a more precise definition of heresy

[nachos]

I will throw two kiddishes for every Jew like you that gets killed

Amazing! Simply Amazing!

Posted by: harold | September 26, 2010 at 05:00 AM
Harold
I see that you fail to comment on the rest of my comment or the comment I was responding to. Jews like Shmuel and YOU harold are one of the reasons for antisemitism.

[Shmarya]

you claim belief in a false messiah is heretical after they die but you have still to demonstrate textually that this is the case. Again, I am not agreeing with the view nor advocating others believe it, but there is a difference between error and heresy.

And?

Again, many Chabadniks view the Rebbe as a demigod.

Are you really saying that belief is not heresy?

there is also a difference between a prophet and a messiah, a distinction you blur.

No. It is a distinction that you don't properly understand because it doesn't really exist in this context.

Eliyahu is necessary to *identify* the messiah but the messiah himself also has the status of a prophet – just like Moses.

while you are correct that many lubavitchers treat the rebbe in the ways you describe that is another issue entirely. we have been discussing the issue of a second coming, NOT divinatory practices.

I clearly answered that question in a previous comment.

You missed that answer because you miss the fact that the messiah will have the status of both a prophet and a king.

what is "our idea of heresy"? heresy as we understand it is a halakhic category defined by rambam and his successors. it is not a sentimental statement of "what many jews believe" but a technical term that refers to particular mandatory doctrines. "our idea of heresy" follows the rambam

Yes. Largely true.

But since the Ramabam shows a most of the beliefs of a majority of Chabad to be heretical, the din would be Chabad is heretical.

When Rabbi Aharon Soleveitchik ruled Chabad's messianism was shtuss, not heresy, I wrote him a letter challenging him on these points. I gave him examples of what Chabad was really doing and asked him if it was heresy or only shtuss. He didn't answer.

At the same time, his family told people that the Chabdnik who asked Rav Aharon the original question had lied to Rav Aharon about what was really going on in Chabad.

Unfortunately, Rav Aharon did what was common for for his brother and other family members to do in this type of situation – he shut up and refused to do anything other than to clarify his previous statement.

His belief, I'm told, is that Chabad messianism would fade away and with it the problem, and it wasn't worth the fight to confront it. But he was wrong.

So, to wrap this up, the Rambam is clear. Belief in a second coming is not part of Rabbinic Judaism.

Every group that has ever followed a dead messiah has been ruled out of Judaism or left on its own volition.

And Chabad's beliefs – the second coming of the Rebbe, the Rebbe's supposed status as a demigod, the Rebbe's omnipotence, etc. – are heretical.

The rabbis who hold they are only shtuss are ruling that way based on partial knowledge, and many of them when confronted with the facts answer by saying it's only a minority who believe that or who do that.

But there is no official census of Chabadniks and what they believe, and the "ambiguity" created by that lack allows non-Chabad rabbis to rely on wishful thinking.

But that does not change the fact that the beliefs are heretical.

And you miss the key point: Chabadniks almost to a man believe the Rebbe answers their questions, guides them, intercedes for them on a personal level, and is in many places at one time as needed and sees everything – in other words, omnipotence.

And that's heresy without any question.

[the usual chaim]

you may argue based on sources other than the rambam that the messiah is both prophet and king, but there is no such source within rambam and we have been discussing rambam. the messiah must be a sage and a military eader, not a prophet. I am not contesting that if and wherein chabadniks treat the rebbe as a demigod it may be heretical. I am only contesting that the second coming idea - specifically - is not acceptable but nor is it heretical. You are combining two separate issues in order to cast aspersions on my argument because you have yet to disprove it... simply showing that the rambam considered it wrong (which you have shown and I have not contested) is not the same as showing that he regarded it as heretical.

your other point here is historically accurate but i am not concerned with the historical question, i am concerned with the legal status of the belief and not convinced that it is technically heresy.

[Shmarya]

Mishne Torah Hilkhot Melachim Chapter 12 Halakha 3:

During the Era of the King Mashiach, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire [nation's] line of descent will be established on the basis of his words, through the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him. As it is written,[30] "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier."

He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating that "This one is a priest of defined lineage" and "This one is a Levite of defined lineage." Those whose lineage he does not recognize will be relegated to the status of Israelites. This is implied by the following verse:[31] "The governor said to them, '[They shall not eat of the most holy things] until a priest arises [who will wear] the Urim and Tumim.' " From this verse one can infer that the genealogy of those presumed to be of unquestioned [priestly and levitical] lineage will be traced by means of the prophetic spirit, and those found to be of such lineage will be made known.

He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone; i.e., he will make known each person's tribal origin, stating that "This one is from this tribe" and "This one is from another tribe." However, concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage, he will not state that "He is illegitimate," or "He is of slave lineage," for the law rules that once a family has become intermingled [within the entire Jewish people], they may remain intermingled.

So you see, the messiah will be a prophet as well as a king.

[the usual chaim]

a careful reading of the guide ch. 2:32, 2:37, and 2:38 in comparison with ch. 2:13 will show that rambam maintained that prophecy is a natural process along aristotelian grounds. as such, it is indistinguishable both ontologically and epistemologically from intellection, only at a higher degree. therefore, when rambam claims the messiah is a prophet he means that he is an exceptional sage.

beyond that: in halakha 2 there he says "in any event, the order of how these [eschatological] things will be is NOT an ikar b'daat"

and emphasizes that there is no clear tradition. if there is no clear tradition, then following his principle (in the introduction to the MT) that nothing of sinatic origin is ever under dispute and there is only dispute in matters of rabbinic interpretation, one would have to conclude that all these details are issues of interpretation, NOT fundamental principles of torah. Therefore, non-standard views could not count as heretical in the technical sense since the standard itself is not definitive. As such, chabad's view, while far off center, could not count as heresy.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i think this is great. duelling religions. of course every memeplex like religions requires some method of transmission. some have used tactics far more effective than others. mormons rely on large families and required missionary work. islam promotes the use of coercive force. thats why mormonism is the fastest growing religion and islam right up there with its impressive numbers. poor little judaism was established without the benefit of analysis of its own success rate and didnt call for the use of these tactics.
this new outpost will have little success but will make the christians doing it feel really fulfilled.

[the usual chaim]

beyond that, ch. 11:4 establishes criteria for moshiach vadai, none of which include prophecy. thus, one could be a messiah without being a prophet. the material on prophecy in ch. 12 is not normative law, it is rambam's best reconstruction of aggadic material that is not fundamental

[Shmarya]

beyond that, ch. 11:4 establishes criteria for moshiach vadai, none of which include prophecy. thus, one could be a messiah without being a prophet. the material on prophecy in ch. 12 is not normative law, it is rambam's best reconstruction of aggadic material that is not fundamental

Wrong.

As everyone from Rav Schach to Maimonidean scholars will tell you, the Mishne Torah is a book of HALAKHOT. The Rambam is writing halakha, not aggadah, and what he clearly explains is that the messiah will also be a prophet.

You can see the section I quoted is halakha because he says very clearly what the halakha is when the messiah comes, what he will do and will not do re: lineages, and how he will do it.

In almost 30 years I've never heard a scholar of the Rambam say that section is simply drush or aggadah. The Rambam brings it to teach HALAKHA.

[SJ]

>> beyond that, ch. 11:4 establishes criteria for moshiach vadai, none of which include prophecy. thus, one could be a messiah without being a prophet. the material on prophecy in ch. 12 is not normative law, it is rambam's best reconstruction of aggadic material that is not fundamental

A suggestion that the messiah will have no ability to tell the future I think can be dismissed at face value.

[Adam Neira]

Regarding Prophecy, Moshiach and the Redemption...

G-d is the superset of all creation. As Maimonides explains in "Guide for the Perplexed" prophetic insight is given to certain people throughout history. The revelation of Moshiach as enunciated by the "Twelfth Article of Faith" unfolds over time. For the person anointed as the righteous redeemer/prince of peace/wise counsellor the process is interesting.

He will have inklings of his true purpose all throughout his life, but the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will become clearer at certain specific times. The revelations will be intensely personal and private between G-d and himself. This will lead to feelings of surprise, wonder, awe, confusion, fear, anger, annoyance, lethargy, inspiration, invigoration and acceptance. He will learn how to orientate and position himself so as to best maximise his role and function in the service of the ultimate mission. He will be mis-interpreted by many people and will attract real hatred, envy, jealousy and vitriol. He will be very close to G-d. His power and influence will grow over time. G-d will assist him in his mission.

P.S. World Peace 2050 was first registered in April 2000. The crux of the vision was set out then. The exact details would be worked out over time. I have learnt an enormous amount since then.(See waybackwhenmachine.com for proof. I love truth !)

[the usual chaim]

shmarya -

even if it codifies aggadic material as halakha, there is a difference between halakhot and ikarim. Violating a halakha does not make a heretic. Violating an ikar does. I would not dispute that belief in a second coming is inconsistent with the content of the final chapter. However, Rambam himself acknowledges that there are many disputes on the material he presents, which seems to indicate that (unlike other halakhic material wherein there are also many disputes) he is not willing to maintain the absolute veracity of what he suggests there. He also makes it explicit that all the material there IS NOT AN IKAR HADAAT.

I still dispute the claim that belief in a second coming is a technical violation of the 12th ikar, and this is where it really matters for the purpose of this conversation. if one does not violate an ikar hadaat he is not, for rambam, a heretic. a sinner, yes, a heretic, no.

[Nobody]

Xtians worship a man, not God. They call a dead man "God." Anyone who does the same, no matter what cult or fancy term they call themselves, is similarly not Jewish and embarrassing to all monotheists. If that includes some chabad people, so be it. I think it's mind boggling that Shmarya promotes xtianity because "Chabad's doing it too." Wtf has this blog become?

I think it'd be more palatable to eat dirt than to sit here and read through these ridiculous justifications for "Jews" who believe in yashka. Who cares what they call themselves? They have clearly cut themselves off from our people and our ways... So cease proclaiming it's "Jewish" or "authentic" or whatever other nonsense. It is simply adoption of foreign culture and foreign values. Admit to the facts and call it what it is openly.

[Shmarya]

I still dispute the claim that belief in a second coming is a technical violation of the 12th ikar, and this is where it really matters for the purpose of this conversation. if one does not violate an ikar hadaat he is not, for rambam, a heretic. a sinner, yes, a heretic, no.

Good.

You just made all of Christianity before the 4th century non-heretical for Jews.

You conclusion would have been a surprise to contemporary rabbis and also to the Rambam.

[the usual chaim]

now you are just being vindictive. what about the whole issue of the deification of J which we discussed above? they were heretics on that account.

[Shmarya]

what about the whole issue of the deification of J which we discussed above? they were heretics on that account.

There is no evidence they were banned specifically for that alone.

[Moshe Morrison]

In his book, “Border Lines,” Daniel Boyarin, professor of Talmudic culture at the near eastern studies department of the University of California writes, “Thus, one of the most characteristic differences between Judaism and Christianity as we know them is the belief in or denial of complexity within the Godhead, but in these early centuries there were non-Christian Jews who believed in God's Word (Logos), Wisdom, or even Son as a ‘second God,’ while there were believers in Jesus who insisted that the three persons of the Trinity were only names for different manifestations of one person. As I shall read the texts, Logos theology (and thence trinitarianism) emerges as a difference between Judaism and Christianity only through the activities of heresiologists on both sides of the divide.”

[Friar Yid]

Kiruv tends to be crap regardless of who's spreading it. And, unless you're a receptive robot, it usually winds up coming off as more than a tad insulting.

While messianic Judaism is certainly one of my trigger buttons, I do find it very interesting that commenters here feel that these missionaries are so contemptible to deserve physical attacks, arsons, or even death. Are we that insecure, really?

[SJ]

The prophet Isaiah says that a man is going to be called God (Isaiah 9:6). HERETIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC! XD

Isaiah needs to get his ass kicked. XD

[Shmarya]

The prophet Isaiah says that a man is going to be called God (Isaiah 9:6). HERETIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC! XD

Isaiah needs to get his ass kicked. XD

Idiot.

Almost every Hebrew name has God in it. Even Isaiah's name contains the a name of God.

Past that, what Isaiah is clearly doing is saying the throne name of a king, and he's doing that in in past tense: "For a child has been born to us…"

Most non-fundamentalist scholars and commenters say he was referring to Hezekiah (Hezkiyahu, in Hebrew), who had assumed the throne after a series of wicked and troubled kings and who had become close to non-idolatrous prophets of his day, including Isaiah.

But, again, even if Isaiah was referring to the future, what he is clearly talking about is the throne name of a Hebrew king.

And you'll note Middle eastern kings of that era had throne names, and those throne names often had God's names (or gods' names) in them.

[SJ]

lol i'm not going to get into a debate I was just making a joke. I don't think your point flies though Shmarya let's just live and let live. XD

[Shmarya]

ol i'm not going to get into a debate I was just making a joke. I don't think your point flies though Shmarya let's just live and let live. XD

No.

You don't know history. You don't know what you're talking about. All you know are the New Testament bible tracts you believe in – tracts most non-fundamentalist Christian bible scholars know to be false.

[SJ]

1) I do know history.

2) I know what I'm talking about.

3) So what. Judaism also has liberal streams that don't believe the Old Testament to be the inspired word of God. Big deal.

[Shmarya]

1) I do know history.

If so, then you should know your 'point' is moronic and nothing more than cheap Christian missionary BS. But you're a cheap Christian missionary type, now aren't you?

2) I know what I'm talking about.

You might be able to pass yourself off as knowledgeable to your missionary friends, but not to us.

3) So what. Judaism also has liberal streams that don't believe the Old Testament to be the inspired word of God. Big deal.

Idiot. Even haredim know that is throne name.

This is not about a divide between liberal and fundamentalist Jews.

This is about a divide between Jews and meshummads, Jews and Christians.

And you are clearly and evidently on the non-Jewish side.

[Anon please]

GREAT NEWS!!
REALLY:
"For Glaser, a first strategic step was moving the organization's headquarters from Charlotte, North Carolina, back home to New York City"
THIS MEANS THAT THE ORGANIZATION WILL GO DOWN THE TUBES! IF IT STAYED IN NC, IT MIGHT HAVE CONTINUED.
THE NEIGHBORS AND OTHERS WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. MAYBE HE WILL DO TSUVAH

[SJ]

>> If so, then you should know your 'point' is moronic and nothing more than cheap Christian missionary BS. But you're a cheap Christian missionary type, now aren't you?

Wow, all this over a joke. XD

>> You might be able to pass yourself off as knowledgeable to your missionary friends, but not to us.

I am nondenominational and not involved or associated with any type of organized religion.

>> Idiot. Even haredim know that is throne name. This is not about a divide between liberal and fundamentalist Jews. This is about a divide between Jews and meshummads, Jews and Christians. And you are clearly and evidently on the non-Jewish side.

Well, on the Who I Am section of my blog I do disclose that I am Messianic. I have said it on this blog before. Am I on the, "non-Jewish" side? I'm not sure how accurate that is. I am a Zionist.

[Shmarya]

Well, on the Who I Am section of my blog I do disclose that I am Messianic. I have said it on this blog before. Am I on the, "non-Jewish" side? I'm not sure how accurate that is. I am a Zionist.

So your blog title, "Thoughts of a Secular Jew," is false and misleading.

What you express are thoughts of a Messianic Jew.

You are certainly not secular.

[SJ]

Here we go. Shmarya you may wanna read my blog more because I answered this just today.

To repeat from my blog, "I view Christianity as theistic secularism because it drops the previous focus on rituals and focuses on morals. Also, I've been SJ for so long no point in changing my name."

[Shmarya]

"I view Christianity as theistic secularism because it drops the previous focus on rituals and focuses on morals.

Please.

It is a RELIGION. Believing in it means you are NOT secular.

And Christianity changes the focus from Jewish law, Jewish faith, etc., to Christian faith – which is belief in Jesus gets you to heaven. Everything else is negotiable.

In Judaism, man is responsible for his actions, and teshuva only helps if the people you sinned against specifically forgive you. If they do not, then on one's passing his actions are evaluated and those unforgiven sins are dealt with. Sins against God – i.e., purely ritual matters, are dealt with and forgiven by Him either through Yom Kippur or on a person's passing.

Now change the title of your blog to reflect the fact that you are not secular and that you are a Messianic Jew.

[Adam Neira]

Warning to all good Jews out there...Arguing with some people just leaves you with a headache if they are not prepared to truly question their frame of reference. Best to move on. Some people in quicksand will do everything they can to sabotage those trying to help them. An over-interest in a pathology is a pathology in itself.

[SJ]

>> It is a RELIGION. Believing in it means you are NOT secular.

By that standard you can say that a large percentage of nonmessianic secular jews aren't really secular.

I feel no need to change my blog title to satisfy you if you will allow me to be blunt for a moment. I've been Thoughts of A Secular Jew for ages and when I talk about religion on my blog it is Old Testament only, and the topics are either that or conservative poliics on my blog.

[SJ]

politics*

[Dave]

SJ, you are right- a large percentage of nonmessianic secular Jews are not really secular. Deep down, all Jews believe in God, and even Jewish atheists argue with God, so they're obviously not really atheists.

[Malka]

All of you seem too smart for your own good! I agree that having that chosen people center in brooklyn is probably not the wisest thing to do. It's like putting a synagogue on rented space from the klan in Maryland. I hope no one will get hurt.
I don't know what all the hubbub is about Chabad. They are the single most dynamic and important Jewish entity to have come to this world in the last 200 years or so for the returning of the Jewish people to their roots.
Of course chassidim think their Rebbe is Moshiach, any chassisim from Breslov to Satmir The only difference is that there are so many published writings from the last Lubovitch Rebbe that clearly give dierection and guidance in our modern world. A true Chasid should have total faith in the direction and teachings of someone they revere as a great spiritual leader. That is the concept of a chassidic rebbe. It is a beautiful way of thinking and of life. There really is no separation of a true Rebbe and Hashem except for the fact that they are two different entities. The True Tzaddik, the one who has completely nulified his evil inclination is a complete reflection of G-d. That is where the idea of Devekus comes from--clinging to the essence of G-d. Attatching ones self to a Tzaddik is very important in Judaism. The concept of a true Niggun, a melody taught by the Rebbe to his chassisdim, is a perfect example of Devekut. The spirit of the music is composed through Ruach Hakosdesh, a holy spirit, if you will. That is why singing a niggun at a wedding of a chassidic gathering is such a special thing. the melodies are holy. Chabad is like 2 siblings who argue over stuff on both sides but are still family. Everything about machiach comes from the laws ofmoshiach and Rambam. It also says in the Torah that a person should not spend much of their times dwelling and prediciting and worrying about moschiach. It isn't healthy. We should be grateful for what we have now on this earth.

**Using profanity is also not necessary on this page. Point blank--if your mother isn't Jewish, neither are you! PERIOD. Why the need to use such words is beyond me. I have never met a true frum "Messianinc Jew". It would be more admirable if their were synagogues full of truly committed frum Jews who happened to also believe in Jesus naturally, than an artificial construct of non-Jews convincing the Jews to believe in all this stuff. The whole theory of being Orthodox goes to pot when you have non-Jews freely mixing with Jews with no problem. I have had non-Jewish romatic interests, but I knew all the time they were not really the same. I have had non-Jews that I have been in love with and it still boils down to the same thing--intermarriage. So when there is an "orthodox" christian/Jewish center because we want the whole world to get along, That is nice and nirvanaish, but it defeats the purpose of the Jewish people in the world to be the light unto the nations and to be a kingdom of priests and of Holy people if we're marrying or carousing with every guy off the street. The whole scene of the mixture would be different if Jews just chose the belief in J as the messiah and still lived according to Jewish ways. As it stands not, most of the foundation is deception and fraud on the part of the unscrupulous churches to go out and catch as many Jews as they can for another notch on their belt. That is not natural or ethical. The whole messianic American Jews for Jesus thing and others is contrived by non-Jews. It would be very different in this day and age if their were Jews who came to it on their own in droves and started doing new things. As it stands, that is not the case. Therefore it does not seem grassroots and natural to me. Believe me, I grew up in Oklahoma with Oral Roberts, Rhema Bible Church fanatics at every breath you take. There is hardly a second where people don't try to convert you. Its not like living on the East Coast where practically everyone is either Catholic, episcapalean?, or Jewish. I have even been into some Christian bookstores, which do sell some nice things. Then I saw the book on converting Jews to Christianity. It was like a how to guide for being sneaky and unethical, let alone speaking to gay people.
Basically for me, after many years of depression and life goal pondering, I realize that if you are an honest and charitable person, the less you have to cover up, Whatever keeps a person on an even keel and helps them get up each morning and look forward to their day is a plus. And even more, whatever keeps a person on this earth and not thinking of suicide is even better. Their are so many unusual thinkers and people who we remember for their revolutionary beliefs throughout history. I personally could never understand why Christianity threw out all the Jewish Holidays. I always thought Christians should be people who believe in Jesus, but live as he did back then. That would really be being like Jesus, since he was very Jewish. I don't think he'd much care for what it has turned into these days. I always did like the idea of being a nun! I thought that living in harmony with others, working the land, rising early to sing and pray together would be amazing! I always did like living in CO-ops in college. To bad there are not Jewish ones. That is another subject entirely. Have a lovely evening, or morning whatever time it is now. Keep it clean and relax! LIfe is too short. Do good and it will come back to you! Laila Tov, Malka

[Malka]

P.S. Sorry about the typos. I do know the difference between there and their. It is like 1:15 am and I can't see very well now. Good night!