"Jerusalem Is Not Tehran!"

Dozens march in haredi area in central Jerusalem in protest of separation between men and women on sidewalks in Mea Shearim neighborhood, hold signs reading "Jerusalem is not Tehran."      

Women protest haredi discrimination
Dozens march in haredi area in central Jerusalem in protest of separation between men and women on sidewalks in Mea Shearim neighborhood, hold signs reading 'Jerusalem is not Tehran'
Kobi Nahshoni • Ynet

Dozens of women and men marched in an ultra-Orthodox area in central Jerusalem on Wednesday, in protest of the discrimination between men and women on the streets of the Mea Shearim neighborhood during the Sukkot holiday.
 
The police set up barriers near the Shabbat Square, and the protestors retraced their steps and ended the rally. Loud arguments were heard between the protestors and local haredi residents.
 
At the start of the procession, its organizers stressed that the protest would be held "without any unnecessary provocations" and expressed their hope that they would not encounter violence.

The march was stopped several meters before the Shabbat Square. Large police forces were dispatched to the area, including mounted police, and the demonstration was dispersed shortly afterwards.

One of the organizers, Rona Orovano, chanted on a loudspeaker, "Women were created in the image of God as well." She wore a shirt with the slogan, "This is what a Jerusalem feminist looks like," while the protestors held signs reading, "Jerusalem is not Tehran, the silent majority is awakening."
 
The procession was attended by secular public figures, including former Knesset Member Mossi Raz (Meretz) and Jerusalem Council Member Laura Wharton.
 
Rachel Taler, a local resident, shouted at the protestors from her balcony: "This is unprecedented impudence, you animals. This is a very specific place for certain people who want to live this way. They have the right to do whatever they want in their own homes. Why are they coming in here? It's as if they would tell me what to cook in my own kitchen."
 
'Go protest near the Arabs'

Haim Weinstock, another Mea Shearim resident, said as he passed by the protest: "This is a provocation for the sake of provocation. Why is separation okay in their clubs and not here? It's only three hours a day. I'd like to see them have the courage to protest near the Arabs in east Jerusalem."

Most of the neighborhood's residents were in the synagogues during the procession, while some watched the protestors on the street and from the houses' windows. The chance for clashes was reduced due to the long prayers characterizing the last day of the intermediate period of Sukkot.

The High Court of Justice ruled Tuesday that the segregation on Mea Shearim's streets was illegal and ordered the police to allow the protestors to march inside the neighborhood.

 

Comments

[harold]

Protest is over and it was anti-climactic with only a few dozen protesters coming. B"H no garbage bins were harmed, no violence. The haredi protested with their usual technique which I usually describe as "hooting and hollering" as the article describes as follows

Loud arguments were heard between the protestors and local haredi residents.

We can go on now and enjoy the yom tov!

[Shmarya]

Protest is over and it was anti-climactic with only a few dozen protesters coming. B"H no garbage bins were harmed, no violence. The haredi protested with their usual technique which I usually describe as "hooting and hollering" as the article describes

Moron.

What the article says is that police stopped the marchers before they got to Shabbat Square.

That means they did not enter Mea Shearim proper.

The article also said most haredi males were in shul because it's Hoshana Rabbah, and the prayers are exceedingly long.

You think your moronic comments are funny. You enjoy leaving them because they irritate people concerned with haredi crime, violence and self-imposed poverty.

But you aren't funny, 'harold,' and you aren't smart.

You're simply a disgusting person who puts his limited intelligence and his hatred for non-Orthodox (and even Modern Orthodox) Jews on display.

You're ignorant. You're truly a moron. And your kleinerkeit hurts the people you profess to care about.

And to help your very tiny mind process, realize that the chachamim prohibited scoffing and fivolity, which in their definition pretty much matches up with your comments.

These are serious issues, crucial issues, and they need to be treated seriously – not with your kleinerkeit and shtuss.

[chaim1]

They could only muster a few dozen women! And for that they want to hold the whole of jewry at bay.

[harold]

Moron.

What the article says is that police stopped the marchers before they got to Shabbat Square.

That means they did not enter Mea Shearim proper

My main point was that there were only a few dozen protesters - whether they enter the square or not.

[Shmarya]

I think finding a few dozen people willing to march into Mea Shearim and be attacked and stoned by haredim is significant – especially when police refused to allow the march and the High Court did not intercede until yesterday.

[Michael Makovi]

Why shouldn't the Haredim be allowed to practice their idiocy and anti-Jewishness in their own areas? As long as they confine their Haredism to their own private areas, I see no problem.

Now, of course, a lot of what the Haredim do, is certainly NOT confined to their own areas. Extorting money to pay for their kollels, for example, is criminal.

But in this case, I don't think they're doing anything wrong. If they want to have their own segregated sidewalks in their own private area of Meah Shearim, then let them. And let Tel Aviv do what it wants. Let every local area have relative autonomy. Federalism, baby.

[Shmarya]

But in this case, I don't think they're doing anything wrong. If they want to have their own segregated sidewalks in their own private area of Meah Shearim, then let them.

Those sidewalks are owned and maintained by the public at large, not haredim, and haredim have no right to enforce their strictures on them.

[IH]

It is interesting to note that in Jewish law we make a major issue of the separations of private and public domains, which of course is the crux of the issue here.

[seymour]

But in this case, I don't think they're doing anything wrong. If they want to have their own segregated sidewalks in their own private area of Meah Shearim, then let them. And let Tel Aviv do what it wants. Let every local area have relative autonomy. Federalism, baby.

Posted by: Michael Makovi | September 29, 2010 at 07:42 AM
_________________________________________

i have asked this on vin never get an answer

would you agree and the heridiem agree that when they walk in on by a secular are they will not wear a sthemeil since most people in the are feel it is a crime to make a hat from fur that the animal was killed by cruelty

[seymour]

Shmarya,

Harold might not be a moron he might believe what he says.

again the secular authority wimped out why not let them march right into the heart of the beast?

[Maskil]

What the article says is that police stopped the marchers before they got to Shabbat Square.

It looks like Barkat kept his promise of one law for one people after all and protected the legal residents of Kikar Shabbat from things that offend them just as he protects those legally in use of the Temple Mount plateau from what they claim offends them (people who look Jewish being there). He is indeed fair. Some say too fair, but one has to admit when a guy is consistant and applies the law evenly and indiscriminantly.

The article also reads:

Dozens of women and men marched in an ultra-Orthodox area in central Jerusalem on Wednesday, in protest of the discrimination between men and women...

Although there is no explanation as to what "discrimination between men and women" means (or whether any court of law on earth has ever recognized such a qualification). Who writes for this online publication? Is "ynet" just some dude who lives in his mom's basement?

[IH]

I thought you claim to live in Israel, Maskil? ynet is Yediot Achronot's web presence.

Hebrew version of the article is:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3961845,00.html

[Mr. Apikoros]

It's not their own private area, MM. They're public streets, maintained by the taxpayers of Jerusalem, as well as Israelis in general.

If I, a white man, want to walk on either side of 125th Street in Harlem, I have the absolute right to do so -- and have done so -- without being shot, mugged, cussed at, or even given dirty looks.

I agree with Seymour: Why weren't the protesters allowed to march right into the belly of the beast. We let Nazis march right down Dempster St. in Skokie, IL back in the days when Skokie was almost exclusively Jewish -- with full police protection.

[friend]

i have asked this on vin never get an answer

would you agree and the heridiem agree that when they walk in on by a secular are they will not wear a sthemeil since most people in the are feel it is a crime to make a hat from fur that the animal was killed by cruelty

Posted by: seymour | September 29, 2010 at 08:14 AM

So, most people in "secular" areas are vegans/vegetarians? They don't wear any shoes , clothes or accesories made of leather?
Wow, that's a surprise for me.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts...

[WoolSilkCotton]

If they said at least 100 women protested, supporters would be impressed.

If they said about 8 dozen women protested, detractors would scoff.

[harold]

and be attacked and stoned by haredim is significant

That is what you say, I don't believe that would happen. Hooting and Hollering, yes, maybe some garbage. It is hard to bring protesters because we are talking about outsiders, people coming to protest a situation that does not affect them takes a special kind of hatred, of the same cloth that FailedMessianites are cut from and there are not too many of them around.

An example, if the people of Harlem decide that they want to shut down 125th street for Martin Luthor King’s birthday, how many non Harlem residents would come and protest the shutting down of a public street not in their neighborhood.

It was not “rocks in the hand” that stopped them from coming; it was “rocks in the head” that made them come.

[Maskil]

IH,

I know what it is. I live in Jerusalem. Ynet.com writes some retarded stuff. The other day about a protest in front of the Prime Minister's residence (regarding the end of the "building freeze" in the settlements). I thought that Yedioth Aharonoth was based in Israel, but anyone on site knows that the President has a residence while the PM has an official office (aside from his office in the Knesset) for greeting ambassadors and other foreign officials. It is Bet Ha-Nasi, but Misrad Rosh Ha-Memshala. About four blocks away from the PM's office is Netanyahu's personal residence (incidentally, or deliberately on the part of the aspiring PM), in front of which there was no protest, while the protest photgraphed and reported on took place outside the guarded street that houses the PM's Office.

And now there's a line about "discrimination between men and women" - seemingly written by a native English speaker, but not making much sense. Were they discriminating against each other, or were they collectively (between both the men and the women) discriminating, or were the men and the women all discriminating against both men and women? And what would any of that mean?

[Mr. Apikoros]

It is not the job of the Jerusalem police to defend the sensibilities of the ortho-dicks of either gender who live in Mea Shearim.

It is their job to enforce the law, which clearly states that the streets in Mea Sheirim are public streets open to all, regardless of race, sex, or religion.

They wimped out, and I have no respect for them.

[Maskil]

I agree with Seymour: Why weren't the protesters allowed to march right into the belly of the beast. We let Nazis march right down Dempster St. in Skokie, IL back in the days when Skokie was almost exclusively Jewish -- with full police protection.

Mr. Apikoros,

Good point. I am yet to meet an Israeli who understands what happend there, or the famous words of Allen Ginsberg that although he despises with every bone in his body what they say he will defend with his life their right to say it. Completely foreign to the Israeli version of democracy, from the simple voter to the Chief Justices of the Supreme Court.

I laud the mayor, Nir Barkat, for his integrity to apply the law evenly, but I do not agree that it is a legitimate application of the law on either side. It should be exactly as you stated it.

[Mr. Apikoros]

125th Street was never shut down (or closed to white people) for Martin Luther King's birthday, Malcolm X's birthday, Tawana Brawley's birthday, or any other day. Thus your argument, "Harold," is totally specious. Do you actually believe the NYPD would allow 125th Street to be closed to white people? Ever?

BTW, Martin Luther King was all for inclusion, not exclusion. You, "Harold," have shit for brains.

[harold]

Do you actually believe the NYPD would allow 125th Street to be closed to white people? Ever?

My argument was not a black/white issue. My example spoke of shutting down the street to all. The point being that the people affected by it would be the people living in the Harlem vicinity, not the 5 towns, and if they want to show respect to the great man of peace and are willing to inconvenience themselves, kol hakavod. But if a resident of the 5 towns says, even though it does not affect me I will travel up to 125t street to protest its closing on principle. I would say that he has “rocks in his head” and is a troublemaker.

[IH]

Maskil, not that I would particularly defend Yediot, no one can afford proper editors anymore -- anywhere. The Guardian is colloquially known as The Grauniad in London due to all their typos.

I'd be curious whether the Hebrew version mis-called the PM's office on Balfour as his residence. That the English translation would be off I could understand (I think they outsource a lot, as does Ha'Aretz for their English versions).

[IH]

So, is anyone going to take the bait of applying Eruvin to the issue of whether these streets are public or private domains and the steer that then comes from Halacha?

That would be far more interesting than the unedifying snarkiness of the majority of this thread.

[Maskil]

No, the Hebrew version is very good. That's why I picked on "ynet." I did not realize that editors ahve pecome so expensive.

hag sameah!

[Menachem Mendel lll]

For all I care these Haredi f_uckers can erect a Berlin Wall around Mea Shearim and build a half dozen Roman style bath houses for them to frequent and fornicate in en masse since I believe in the literal interpretation of Ahavas Yisrooel.

MOSCHIACH UBER ALLES!

[jay]

Harold, following your logic- the haredi protesters who were repeatedly protesting in front of the Intel plant that agreed to only hire Gentiles for Saturday work hours must have rocks in their head and be full of senseless hatred.

[Barry]

Harold there is nothing wrong in shutting down a street for good public policy reasons eg. for a marathon or bike race, building works, a demonstration or gay pride march, or a local or national holiday such as Martin Luther King day etc to avoid congestion. What one must not do is to shut down a street or restrict its use in a manner which is unlawfully sexual discriminating. So for example if you are expecting 20,000 people to attend a particular event, you can close down two roads each which could cope with 10,000 people. You cannot however insist that men use one road and women use the other road, let alone that give men preference. You just let 10,000 people fill up one road and then direct the remaining people to the other.

Secondly there is never any purpose in protesting or demonstating again Hareidim as they are not open to reason let alone protest. If they act or threaten to act unlawfully then you go to the court to enforce the law by sending over police to baton them. That is what the police are paid to do.

[harold]

You cannot however insist that men use one road and women use the other road, let alone that give men preference.

It depends on the reality on the ground. If you are holding a Women's marathon you are closing off roads to be used by only women runners and the same thing for Men's marathon. As long as it is of a well defined duration and the reason makes sense and is not arbitrary.

Here we are talking about a large crunch of men going to a particular location at a particular date and time interval it would not be considered arbitrary hence should be allowable.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Women's marathon?

First, there are very few, if any, "women's marathons," at least not in the USA. There's one marathon, and women compete against other women, and men compete against other men. The reason for that is that men are faster runners, on average, then women.

Second, a marathon is a contest. Same goes for golf, tennis, and boxing, all sports in which men and women generally compete separately (except mixed doubles). Walking down a street isn't a contest; it's a right. Whether one can run 26 1/8 miles in 2 hours 5 minutes, 3 hours 55 minutes, or not at all is irrelevant to whether you can walk down any public street in America or anywhere else.

Every time, "Harold," you manage to dig yourself deeper into the Scheisse.

[harold]

Walking down a street isn't a contest; it's a right. Whether one can run 26 1/8 miles in 2 hours 5 minutes, 3 hours 55 minutes, or not at all is irrelevant to whether you can walk down any public street in America or anywhere else.

When a marathon is going on I assume that I am forbidden to walk on the route taken by the runners. Most people don't make this an issue as long as it does not interfere with my right to get from point "A" to point "B". I fail to see the schtaltzness(stubbornness) that people are getting bent out of shape if they can get from point "A" to point "B" but are redirected by one reason or another for a limited time period. Are there special glorious roads that make a big difference in Mea Shearim? I guess I can see a Christian who is not being allowed to follow the path that was used by Jesus (I think it it call Via Dolorosa). However to be pissed off because for a couple of hours the path taken is not the preferred one is silly.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Again, Harold, you stick your foot right up your ass.

There is no comparison between running a race on a public street and walking down a public street. None. There's no race going on in Mea Sheirim. Only a procession, which the zealots residing there have decided requires sexual segregation, probably because if any of these old sexually repressed frumbag farts saw an attractive women, they'd come right in their pants. On the spot. And since they only have one pair of pants, they don't want to get them dirty.

[harold]

which the zealots residing there have decided requires sexual segregation

First of all the neighborhood is composed of "these zealots" and herein lies the problem. In YOUR eyes the segregation issue as it relates to the issue of tznius is a joke, but in THEIR eyes it is a serious matter. Now since the majority of the neighborhood is composed of "these zealots" and the restrictions pertain mainly to THEM and we are talking about a limited time span, I fail to see what the REAL problem here is as it relates to the “real world” not philosophical issues of “rights”.

[justayid]

Part of the difficulty is that Mea Shearim and its streets existed before the state did. The state inherited a community and its customs. As a human and political reality that matters, even if abstract ideas of human rights say it should not.

[IH]

Justayid, I do not have sources to hand, but I do not believe that Mea Shearim was as crazy around the time the state was created.

My 7th generation Yerushalmi aunt grew up in Shchunat Ha'Bucharim a hop-skip-throw away.

[Jay]

Again, following Harold's twisted logic: If a neighborhood is composed of a homogenous population of "zealots" it is only reasonable to respect their idiosyncrasies for a period of time as they determine.

Therefore it is only logical to assume that he would approve of neighborhoods wherein nudism, orgies on the streets or prostitution would be allowed at specific times of year , when the majority of the population therein so demands.

Additionally, neighborhoods where annual festivals include Nazi or KKK rallies should have that right respected and Jews should reasonably respect that and stay away. Nor should they protest these events.

After all, it's what the majority of the residents in those neighborhoods desire.

[harold]

Again, following Harold's twisted logic:

I fail to see the comparison. There is no comparison between accomodating a minor inconvience for religios reason for sick illegal behaviour. Just like one cannot block off a street but allowances are made for a parade or a marathon.

Oh, whats the point. It was fun though!

Gut Yom Tov to all!

P.S. Please if you see Anat Hoffman on simcas torah be on your guard lest she run off with one of your toras!

[Edited by siteowner

One more time, 'harold,' and I'll delete all your comments. Process that.]

[Adam Neira]

What constitutes a healthy city at this time in human history is an interesting thing. The geometries of consciousness now at play in the Holy City are fascinating to behold. With wise counsel many important and contentious issues can be resolved peacefully. Confusion often precedes understanding.

[Shmarya]

Confusion often precedes understanding.

And mental illness and delusions often precede the taking of one's medicine.

[IH]

It continues to bemuse me that none of you is applying our considerable rabbinic literature on the differences between private, communal and public domains to this discussion.

And, Harold, I'm surprised that in the 40 or so years since Rabbi Riskin (and the other Rabbi Shlomo -- Carlebach -- at around the same time) permitted women to dance with Sifrei Torah on Simchat Torah, that has not found its way to your community. I remain hopeful your daughter will have the zchut.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I predict Harold's daughter will end up rejected ultra-Orthodoxy, just as my maternal grandmother rejected the benighted, atavistic views of her Litvak (not Hasidic) father.

My grandfather was in good company. Her six brothers and sisters did likewise.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Whoops. That's grandmother. Too much celebrating of OKTOBERFEST will do that.

[Adam Neira]

To Shmarya...

Who are your comments directed to ?

[who knows]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts...

Posted by: friend | September 29, 2010 at 08:39 AM

This is true, but remember that the biggest creators of "their own facts" are indeed Haredim and other fundametalists (of all religion and secular based ideologies).