"The Torah Is Not Open To Investigation!" Say Rabbis Who Refuse To Answer Police Summons

"When we encounter a gentile who has violated the Seven Laws of Noah and kill him out of concern for upholding the seven mitzvoth, no prohibition has been violated. Anywhere where the presence of a gentile poses a threat to Israel, it is permissible to kill him, even if it is a righteous gentile who is not responsible for the threatening situation."

Rabbis fail to report to police
Following Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira's controversial book laying out Torah wartime morals, book's supporters suspected of incitement refuse to cooperate with investigation. 'Torah not open to investigation,' they say
Aviad Magnezi • Ynet

Rabbis Yaakov Yosef and Dov Lior were summoned for questioning in the case of Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira's book, "Torat Hamelech," but Lior failed to appear to the meeting scheduled Monday while Yosef announced he did not intend to come to the meeting scheduled for Tuesday. The two have expressed their support for the book and are suspected of incitement.
 
On Monday they explained their support. "The Torah is not open to investigation," they wrote. "The attempts to stop Israel's rabbis from expressing their opinions, their Torah opinions, using fear and threats, is a grave act and will not succeed.
 
"A regime that acts thus joins the evil regimes which have forbidden the study of the Torah and raised their hands against it. We therefore declare that we intend not to come to be questioned, especially after Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzberg so clearly expressed our position to the investigators."

The two rabbis say that the book, "Torat Hamelech," sets out how to behave in times of war and explains wartime morals according to the holy Torah. The book claims that it is permissible to kill someone who wants to kill you, and that it is permissible to harm someone who shields an enemy in order to preserve the lives of our citizens and soldiers.
 
They assert that the Torah's moral codes must guide the entire IDF and any judicial system which aims to operate according to the truth. "Our right to our land after 2000 years of exile is the right to our holy Torah," they wrote.

Sources close to Rabbi Yosef said to Ynet, "The persecution against rabbis because of opinions they have expressed for the sake of IDF soldiers will not prevent them from continuing to say the truth."

Yossi Darmer, head of Rabbi Lior's bureau, confirmed that "the rabbi would not cooperate with the political persecution."
 
"Boundaries have been overstepped, (this is) communist-style persecution," said MK Michael Ben Ari (National Union). "Nobody would dare to investigate sheikhs or leftwing professors who take advantage of freedom of speech for their own ends."

State Prosecutor's Office acts

After Shapira was detained, Deputy State Prosecutor Shai Nitzan revealed that a secret investigation was underway against other rabbis connected to the publication of the book, who are suspected of incitement. Nitzan announced that investigations would be made into the organization 12 Heshvan and 11 other groups united under the "Brit Hoshech Legaresh."

"A long time ago I requested that the police open investigations into the book's authors, Shapira and Rabbi Yosef Yirmiyahu Elitzur, and against those who agree with it, Ginzberg, Lior and Yosef," Nitzan wrote.

He also revealed that he had ordered an investigation into Elitzur on the same suspicions, following his article, "Killing innocent people," which was published in the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva newsletter and website.

Rabbi Nehamia Goldberg [I think this is Rabbi Zalman Nehemia Goldberg, the prominent posek, who endorsed the book without reading it and withdrew his endorsement after finding out the book's contents], also among the book's first supporters, will not be investigated because he has withdrawn his support and even criticized the book's content.

Shapira, from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, wrote in his book, "When we encounter a gentile who has violated the Seven Laws of Noah and kill him out of concern for upholding the seven mitzvoth, no prohibition has been violated."

According to the rabbi, "Anywhere where the presence of a gentile poses a threat to Israel, it is permissible to kill him, even if it is a righteous gentile who is not responsible for the threatening situation."

Following the police investigation, a few days ago Shapira called on rabbis to join him in expressing the Torah opinion on wartime morals. He said even though the establishment will take vengeance on those who express Torah opinion on this issue, "we must not be frightened off."

As I wrote earlier, Rabbi Yaakov Yosef is very close to Chabad, and is sometimes represented as a Chabadnik. Rabbi Dov Lior comes from a Chabad family. Rabbi Yizchak Shapira is  a Chabadnik. So is his mentor, Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, who was also arrest in connection with the book which, among other things, allows the murder of Arab babies because they will grow up to be our enemies.

All of these rabbis are familiar with and have taught the Tanya, the fundamental book of Chabad hasidut authored by Chabad's founder, Rabbi Schneer Zalman of Lyadi. The Tanya says that non-Jews have evil souls that have within them no good at all.

Related Posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 11, 12.

As I wrote earlier, Rabbi Yaakov Yosef is very close to Chabad, and is sometimes represented as a Chabadnik. Rabbi Dov Lior comes from a Chabad family. Rabbi Yizchak Shapira is  a Chabadnik. So is his mentor, Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, who was also arrest in connection with the book which, among other things, allows the murder of Arab babies because they will grow up to be our enemies.

All of these rabbis are familiar with and have taught the Tanya, the fundamental book of Chabad hasidut authored by Chabad's founder, Rabbi Schneer Zalman of Lyadi. The Tanya says that non-Jews have evil souls that have within them no good at all.

Related Posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 11, 12.

Comments

[state of disgust]

Sounds like contempt of court. If he doesn't abide by the law of the land, throw the bastard in jail and continue to keep in prison until he agrees to leave the country.

[Mr. Apikoros]

What the heck have rabbinical scholars done, if not investigate the Torah, for the past 3,000 years?

[seymour]

What the heck have rabbinical scholars done, if not investigate the Torah, for the past 3,000 years?

Posted by: Mr. Apikoros | August 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM

you stole my thunder

[chabib]

One is not allowed to question how these
alleged rabbis arrived at their decisions
based on Torah law. When did this become
the norm in Judaism ?

[Dr. Dave]

Yeah, but the Torah only belongs to the chareidim and only they are allowed to investigate.

Also Hashem speaks to them with new Torah all the time.

How else can you explain the unhalachic chumrot, and the chareidim thumbing their noses at rishonim, acharonim and the Torah itself through rejection of established halacha and tradition?

[Donner]

I am Donner, God of Thunder. As I own thunder (and lightning), you can't steal it, Seymour.

If you were to be stupid enough to try, I'll send a lightning bolt your way.

[harold]

Looks like the police have too much time on their hands. No Intel demonstrations. Things appear to be quiet on the garbage bins front. No cemeteries being dug up. Been real quiet at the parking lots. So its time to go after some old men who critiqued a book. Very smart move, maybe they can instigate another demonstration to have some work to do. A win-win situation for them.

[Alter Kocker]

Toss these hate-mongers in jail. Shave their payess and beards. May they rot. Do they want war? Do they invite reprisal? Let the anti-semites know that there is this undercurrent-they will make it their business to re-start the shoah.Let these rabbis learn that they live in a land of laws to which they are subject. One cannot invoke Torah as your only law, and to hell with the rest of the country. Murder and hate are illegal.

[Nobody]

The police and the politicians who instruct them (ie the attorney general and his bosses in the govt) decide what the Torah says and means? You people want a police state. The real danger are people like you, not these rabbis.

[pistabacsi]

theese retardet rabbis who are nobodies feel that they are somebody only when they can give out life and death decrees what a bunch of loosers infantile behaviour wont get them anywhere maybee into jail

[A E ANDERSON]

Ginsburgh and Shapira are trolling. They want to get arrested because they want the publicity that will cause people to engage their teachings. The trap is this: the Torah educated are not able to reject the teachings of the great sages of yore. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism lacks a halakha committee that can overrule or set aside outdated or antiquated laws and concepts. Thus, a biblical command to annihilate the inhabitants of Canaan, for example, is taken literally as a positive precept that must be performed by the believers today. Where the practice of Orthodox Judaism had once relegated these troublesome matters to hoary antiquity, these radicals are using the Jewish presence in Eretz Israel as a means of reviving long-abandoned ritual and practices, some of them quite disturbing.

[yakov]

how sad for all of us that the face of the torah is so ugly-but heck they're probably right these people can be killed for such flimsy reasons.the thing is these guys look like they'd really enjoy it.the 'torah' has been up for grabs forever since nobody seems to understand it or even have the courage to read what it says maybe with the exception of these guys who see it's ugliness.so we make the torah new each generation to fit our needs and call that eternal with amnesia.the haradi have been around for about 200 years and are doing their utmost to divide and weaken our people they proved villainous in the 2nd w.w. and have made a comeback partnered with a equally villainous Israel=failed messiah- albeit without any anti-israeli messages allowed wonder why this villain is bad and this other not.

[state of disgust]

"Ginsburgh and Shapira are trolling. They want to get arrested..."

Then by all means lets hope the State of Israel complies with their wish ... and puts them in a cell block reserved for terrorists.

[al Farabi]

Very well put AE Anderson!

[Robert Wisler]

Donner...
Looks like someone knows Wagner's Ring Cycle on this group!

[A E ANDERSON]

At the same time, I don't think they actually want to kill anybody. I think they're trying to radicalise the dialogue in Jewish religious circles with what appear to be impeccable proof texts. I a taking the liberty of reposting a selection from an earlier post I made on this subject:

GINSBURGH, ET AL, ERR: In their own way, they take esoteric mystical, medrashic, aggadic, historical concepts and try to make then into tangible matters of Jewish religious practice. The proof of their errors rests in the grotesque conclusions that they draw, conclusions so offensive to the moral mind (killing babies) that one cannot give them quarter: they are the Jewish equivalents of Holocaust deniers. We silence Holocaust deniers not because there is no room for scholarship and discussion about the Shoah. We silence them because the (usually wrong) conclusions of their scholarship promote hate and racial violence, which is their initial goal.

They might argue that the Torah says such and such. The problem is that Torah requires a tradition, a kabbalah from one generation to the next. It is not enough to find something in a text and say "let's do it." Judaism requires a tradition. We do not have a tradition that says we kill babies. In ancient times, it was the practice to utterly annihilate one's enemies. Parts of the Old Testament are quite bloody. But one would be a madman to say that IDF should play Samson and drink libations out of the skulls of vanquished enemies, and so on.

These haredim are obviously trying to reconcile their Settler ethos with classical Judaism and they are reaching into the archives of Jewish history for models and traditions that they can adopt. The model they are working with is, for lack of a better label, is the Future-Perfect Jewish Commonwealth, a theoretical construct that never was (and hopefully never will be) made from the masqonot of post-exilic Jewish texts, layered over by the great Rishonim, and Acharonim when available. This is the Halakhic Eretz Israel that these religious scholars imagine is the world to come.

Menachem Schneerson, while he raised messianic expectations and demanded that matters of "redemption" be studied, did set a limit on the extent of human agency in bringing about the messianic era: he stated that the Third Temple would descend whole from the heavens, and that our homes and synagogues would be transported through the clouds to Eretz Israel after the Messiah arrives. His teachings were to bring the Messiah through ordinary Torah and mitzvot, always stopping short of the kind of blatant Temple Mount-style activism that is popular in certain Settler circles. Bring Moshiach; God will do the rest.

(Yet, Schneerrson's own political activism is impossible to deny)

I think Ginsburgh and Shapira exploit a certain disconnect in scholarly Orthodox circles: nobody today considers themselves of sufficient rabbinic stature to overrule or otherwise negate the sayings, principles and findings of the greats of antiquity. So as they postulate their new halakha for the Future-Perfect Jewish Commonwealth, they draw on perfectly valid but seriously dated sources. I don't really know if they publish these things with an eye toward rabble rousing, but they are well-read, aware men who should bear responsibility for what they teach and preach, no matter who the source. For them, "the Rambam says" is no more exculpatory than "we were just following orders."

[Sergey]

To All Those Jews who don't know the pain of being bitten/cut/shot by Anti-Semites:

"Those who are merciful to a cruel will be cruel to a merciful". It's in Talmud.

Most of the Jewish morons on this page lost their minds into serenity, bliss and prosperity of the US or Western minded Israel. You refuse to remember what happened in secular educated Germany 70 years ago. Wach what will happen when DJ falls below 6000, G-d forbid.

Have you ever read that book?

And don't fool yourself. State of Israel is not a jewish state. It is only "democracy" where Jewish pogroms are state sponsored; anti-Semites flourish and enjoy full access to the media; political police is official etc., etc.

I am sick of these naive Jewish fools.

[Yos]

Israel a 'regime'? Send him to Saudi Arabia.

[JC]

The funny thing about all this "kill the goyim" stuff is that these guys would probably never actually fight in the IDF. Maybe as army rabbis, but they don't actually become soldiers.

@AE Anderson: If you take biblical commandments truly literally, wouldn't you have to say "well, there are no Canaanites now but the Torah says 'thou shalt not kill' generally so we can't kill anyone"?

[just me]

anderson "I don't really know if they publish these things with an eye toward rabble rousing, "

translated from hebrew press curtosy of coteret

Zvi Zinger,Yediot, December 6 2009 [page 4]

[...]

The radical right is also adding oil to the fire. An article in its internet-distributed pamphlet “The Jewish Voice” includes a call to “execute targeted operations against the evildoers, invade Civil Administration offices and ransack them, as well as operate violently [sic] against the Palestinians, deepen the refusal to serve in the army and not recognize Israeli courts.”

The article was written by Rabbi Yosef Elitzur of the “Od Yosef Hai” yeshiva in Yitzhar.

there is a lot more on the site including Yediot's "Right wing activists suspected of torching Palestinian house"

these rabbis are not just being questioned about the book. google 'price tag attacks'. fater the gov announced the setlement freeze these rabbis and their cohorts at certain yeshivas announced they were defying gov orders and threatened any gov action to remove outposts or interupt their settler building w/retribtution attacks aimed at...palestinians.

after the first meeting (copy of announcement at the link) wed night they they burnt down a palestinian home and blew up their vehicles in the middle of the night. the next day (first day of chanaka) the vandalized and mosque and burned korans. the official american orthodox organization issued a condemnation and said this wasn't judaism (or something like that) and then bibi also issued an apology (2nd day of chanaka or maybe 3rd) the following day many rabbis inside israel condemned the attacks.

meanwhile the price tag attacks continue inside the west bank. just last week the government came to take down a outpost near hebron and again the settlers entered palestinian area and wrecked havok. this is all at the begest of these same rabbis, ir it's their yeshivas. it is a nightmare.

here's a jpost article New unit to confront ‘price tag’ attacks

[just me]

sorry about the typos. i wasn't wearing my glasses.

[Runner1893]

These rabbis are not practicing Judiasm, but something else. They are an embarrassment.