« DNA Tests Show Hitler Was Descended From Jews And North Africans, News Magazine Says | Main | Rubashkin Equals Pollard Equals Shalit, Rabbis Say »

August 23, 2010

Rabbi Who Endorsed Book Permitting Murder Of Arab Babies Says "Nigger" Music Not Kosher

Rabbi Dov Lior cropped small "Music can get contaminated. Experts will investigate and see if the tune is 'kosher,' if it expresses an aspiration to goodness, or if it is taken from the jungle and stimulates negative emotions. With pop, you can see clearly that it's negative. Something that belongs to the rhythms of kushim [niggers] isn't part of our world."

Those noisy barbarians
Dov Lior, the chief rabbi of Hebron, doesn't want Jews to take on boogie-woogie from the jungle.

By Noam Ben Ze'ev Tags: Israel news

Rabbi Dov Lior 3 Dov Lior, the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, head of the rabbinical committee in the territories and a power broker in the halls of government, is this country's real prime minister, writer Sefi Rachlevsky said in an op-ed in Haaretz's Hebrew edition last week.

Some of Lior's doctrines, which made headlines in the wake of his refusal to be interrogated by police in an incitement case, were revealed in Rachlevsky's piece: permission to spill Arab blood, praise for the murderer Baruch Goldstein and spiritual support for extreme right-wing Jewish terrorists. In addition, Lior is suspected of involvement in the rabbinical condemnation of Yitzhak Rabin before the prime minister was assassinated in 1995. A check of the Hebrew website Arutz Meir (www.meirtv.co.il ), which offers some 11,000 recorded lectures on Jewish topics, reveals that, somewhat surprisingly, the fundamentalist rabbi also has firm opinions on something else: music.

A year ago, Lior was the guest of an educational institution whose name is not stated on the recording, but which appears to have been a music school, to judge by the excited questions of the musicians who teach at the school: How should one view music composed by non-Jews? Is it permissible to set biblical verses to the melodies of non-Jewish songs?

If the questioners had turned to up-to-date studies in musicology, they would have been introduced to exactly these questions, at the core of which lies a dialogue from ancient times that relates to the very nature of music. Is music abstract, and can therefore express nothing but itself, as 19th-century thinkers would have it? Or, as the movement of new musicology sees it, does it demonstrate extra-musical content, even in works as seemingly neutral as a symphony by Brahms or Beethoven?

As Dov Lior asked: Do we go by the approach that music should be taken at face value, or do we look into who created it, who composed it? Does that matter?

Pop as paganism

In Jewish law, as in Islamic law, music can pose problems. The Hasidim, for example, place a high value on their melodies, when sung in the proper circumstances, but not on all music. Jewish men are prohibited from hearing women sing, according to halakha. On the other hand, the Levites in the Temple, and King David himself, used music for higher purposes. In one of the recordings, Lior encourages those present to learn how to play all the instruments, saying the Levites will need to know how when the Temple is rebuilt. "We need to nurture, train, raise God-fearing people who specialize in this field," he says.

The rabbi sometimes seems open to non-Jewish music and willing to have Jews engage with it, but at other times talks about banning it. "Until 400 years ago there were composers among non-Jews, but they all focused on church music and pagan music," is his simplistic approach. "But since a rebellion occurred, they started creating humane music that expresses positive sentiments. There are some honorable people among the goyim. A few, but they exist. I think that even in Hebron there are a few who are human beings - which doesn't mean I'm saying they shouldn't all be sent to Saudi Arabia. They should all be sent to Saudi Arabia!"

According to the rabbi, this good period among non-Jews has ended: "There has been a downfall since World War II. ... I call this boogie-woogie and they call it pop. It expresses people's animalistic and lower urges. This noisy, fast rhythm is unlike that of the Hasidim, who sang with devotion and could do so for hours. Its very basis is improper: urges without any elevating principle. It must absolutely be avoided. ... That kind of thing is in the jungle."

Lior says that music reflects the nature of a people, and gives the Arabs as an example. "Whoever is more barbaric is noisier," he says. "Have you noticed, for example, when [Arabs] have weddings, the [Israeli] left has taught them to shoot these fireworks in the air, and they blend in real gunshots, and sometimes shoot each other. It is part of the amusement at their weddings. They cannot live without noise. And pop as a whole... there are those who worship this kind of god. Clearly this does not belong at all to Judaism, and not to composers who know how to express good and tender feelings and aspire to values for all humanity."

May one take non-Jewish music and sing prayers to those tunes? Lior: "Music can get contaminated. Experts will investigate and see if the tune is 'kosher,' if it expresses an aspiration to goodness, or if it is taken from the jungle and stimulates negative emotions. With pop, you can see clearly that it's negative. Something that belongs to the rhythms of kushim [a derogatory term for black people] isn't part of our world. In America, Rabbi [Shlomo] Carlebach matched melodies to prayers, and what he made into something Jewish is all right. But not everyone can just take from this sewer of pop, from the world of lies."…

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

So he didn't actually use the word "nigger." Just so we're clear.

So he didn't actually use the word "nigger." Just so we're clear.

He used the Hebrew word that means nigger. Just so we're clear.

Kushim is a pejorative term in colloquial hebrew.

He used the word "kushim". Not the "N" word. You are such a hateful fool Shamaya. I can;t wait to meet you one day to figure what sort of mental disorder you have. Have you ever been diagnosed with something? As a matter of fact, you should pull this article from your blog. You are not supposed to actually write the "N" word, ecpecially quoting someone who didnt even say the word. I am contacting the NAACP and the black panthers and asking them their thoughts on you writing the "N" word. What a hateful fool you are.

This headline, like the previous thread's headline- 'Hitler Was Descended From Jews And North Africans'- plays a bit fast and loose with the actual facts in the article.

It was irresponsible to use the N word, in quotation marks, in the headline.

actually kush is the hebrew name for africa and thats what they preffered to be called. dumbass.

"There are some honorable people among the goyim. A few, but they exist. I think that even in Hebron there are a few who are human beings - which doesn't mean I'm saying they shouldn't all be sent to Saudi Arabia. They should all be sent to Saudi Arabia!"

Wow!, Just wow!

The Cheif Rabbi of Hebron? I really don't know what to add here.

Now I don't live in Hebron, but as a Goyem (and a jazz/swing fan), it's nice to know what respected men of influence who reportedly speak for an entire race and ethnicity think of me and the talented people I enjoy listening to.


But i won't say anything negative against this fine man and his teachings. That would be anti-semetic. Plus I wouldn't want to endanger my being judged a real human being in any way. I might lose sleep with worry over it.

actually kush is the hebrew name for africa and thats what they preffered to be called. dumbass.

Please.

Kushim in Modern Hebrew means nigger.

That's why Ha'aretz defined it as a "derogatory term for black people."

If he has any smart advisers,he'll listen to them and pull this article. No one gets away with writing the N word in a heading, especially when it wasn't even quoting anyone who actually used that word. What a fool. Does anyone know him? Fool

You all can use Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/#

""Kushim in Modern Hebrew means nigger."""

So how is someone referring to a black person in Hebrew?

BTW,the same misconception is when it comes to Yiddish. A black person is called a schavrtza and it not said as derogatory.But in these political correctness days,anything means everything.

haaretz is a bunch of idiots. they were the ones that posted the story about the muslim leaders not wanting the mosque,

Your heading does seem unnecessarily inflammatory and reminds me of Doc Laura's incident. I would have been ok with her using it once to make a point, but then she went a bit over the top and kept repeating it unnecessarily.
As far as the word the Rabbi used, I am not qualified to comment. If it is derogatory then it is wrong. Still, I believe the "n" word should not have been used here.

I am not a politically correct person at all, but I am a mentsch. I would argue that when most Jews use the term schvartze, they do use it derogatorily.

I use the terms black and white. I never say the "n" word or schvartze, and I don't like the term "African American". The President of my Shul is from South Africa, is now a U.S. citizen, and was an African American President before Obama....he's white as can be....

Evil moron,

Haaretz might also want to define the word 'shvartzer' as "a derogatory term for black people", but "shvartze" doesn't mean "nigger", it means simply 'black'. One can also call blacks 'shechorim' in Hebrew; the degree of derision is not in the word itself, but in the level of derision imparted ONTO THE WORD by the speaker.

It is only in America, with its unique experience, that a SPECIFIC insulting word 'nigger' came into being.

What an evil lying animal you are, Scott שר"י! May you drop dead soon so that the Jewish people be rid of yet another enemy and a rodef!

""I use the terms black and white. I never say the "n" word or schvartze""

The color black in Yiddish is:schvartz

They ask who is your contractor or banker? they would say a white,italian,spanish or schvartza.

There seem to be people of two minds on contemporary use of "כושי’ (kushi): in very contemporary usage, the word is used pejoratively, and it is used in its traditional, neutral fashion as a reference to African people of dark skin colour who hail from the biblical land of Kush or are descended from the son of Noah named Kush.

It doesn't equate to, or rise the pejorative level of, "nigger," which itself takes on different shadings when used in the American, compared with the British, context. The word couldn't mean the same in Israeli Hebrew simply because Israel hasn't hundreds of years of history dealing with the colour line and its problems.

Even in contemporary usage, "kushim" has varying shades of nuance: in pre-Ethiopic Aliyah times (i.e., 20-30 years ago), it was pretty much equivalent to "Shachorim" (blacks), which itself has become pejoratively tinged. Non-Hebrew speakers, speaking English, Yiddish, Yinglish or Yeshivish, may resort to the term. For some, it is clearly used as stand-in for "nigger," while others continue to say and hear the word in its classical sense. You almost have to look to the inflection to divine the intent.

There is also the inherent problem that any word used to label a hated, disliked or lampooned group will become over time a racist insult: coloured, negros, Affirmative Action/ Equal Opportunity hirees, and, yes, kushim.

My inclination would be to let the user of the word live with the actual phrase they used, letting the chips fall where they may. I still think there are many alive who cling to the classical, non-pejorative use of "kushi" and mean no harm. After all, the word comes from the bible, and God would presumably not use bad words to describe his creations.

One can also call blacks 'shechorim' in Hebrew; the degree of derision is not in the word itself, but in the level of derision imparted ONTO THE WORD by the speaker.

From the above article:Lior was the guest of an educational institution whose name is not stated on the recording

Obviously, even though I am correct and the word kushim does mean the N word in Modern Hebrew, even if you were correct you would still be wrong about Lior's meaning.

What an evil lying animal you are, Scott שר"י! May you drop dead soon so that the Jewish people be rid of yet another enemy and a rodef!

I normally do not wish evil on other people.

In your case, however, I'm willing to make an exception.

"Lior was the guest of an educational institution whose name is not stated on the recording"

Can you explain what you are using this quote to indicate to us, shmarya? You don't seem to have any point with that quotation.

Cushim is not N*, you are being dishonest and inflammatory, any Hebrew speaker knows that. You should change that immediately or lose all credibility. This is offensive and false.

Cheskel, you are either being disingenuous, or you don't really understand yiddish.

I can only assume you are a silly baal tshuvah, or just another frummer who never learned yiddish.

I agree with Itchie. While 'schvartze' is not as inflammatory in yiddish as the N word is in English, it is certainly not neutral nor is it used as a complement.

Exactly where in the modern Hebrew lexicon the K word falls in terms of offensiveness, and how that compares to the N word here in the USA, should be explained to us by someone fluent in the languages and lexicons of both America and Israel.

I'll wait until such a person posts an opinion. You, for sure, Cheskel, are not such a person.

Cushim is not N*, you are being dishonest and inflammatory, any Hebrew speaker knows that. You should change that immediately or lose all credibility. This is offensive and false.

Please.

It is a derogatory term for black people whose only English translation is the N-Word.

That is why Ha'aretz translated it as a "derogatory term for black people."

You can rant and rave all you want, but the facts are the facts, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part changes them.

Anderson 5:39- thanks for the information.

Amazing. Instead of talking about the message that this guy is promoting, you guys are arguing over a literal translation of a word. Whether it means nigger, black guy, or homie. It really dowsn't matter what the exact translation is. What's important is the core message he's sending.

WSC,
Yiddish is what i speak all day. So i know what word is used when. I don't speak or write Yiddish as the yiddishisten from the forward were they are using it professional.
I understand Yiddish better then you do English. And among thousands of orthodox Jews when they say on a black male "schvartza" its simple said as in describing the person and not in a derogatory way. All the political correctness will not change this fact.

My mother is a native Hebrew speaker and she never uses the word "kushi" as a hateful or pejorative term. Your use of "nigger" in your headline is misleading and nothing short of pure sensationalism. Shmarya, you have worked too hard to break some very important stories to descend to the level of tabloid journalism.

My mother is a native Hebrew speaker and she never uses the word "kushi" as a hateful or pejorative term. Your use of "nigger" in your headline is misleading and nothing short of pure sensationalism. Shmarya, you have worked too hard to break some very important stories to descend to the level of tabloid journalism.

1. Ha'aretz defines Lior's use of the word as "a derogatory term for black people."

2. The English language word that Ha'aretz is referring to "nigger."

If you do not like that, take it up with Ha'aretz or, better yet, Lior.

Rather than argue the semantics, the rabbi's thesis is prima facie bullshit. Referring to "jungle music" and the like is a racist code phrase. I am sure our Hebrew ancestors didn't listen to European style music. It was probably rhythmic like that of the Yemenite Jews.

As a translator of both Hebrew and Yiddish I'd like to weigh in here.

First of all the word Schvartz is the only way to say black in Yiddish. There is no other word.

A native Yiddish speaker would describe anything black as "schvartze."

Such as this exchange:
Velecher hoise is dayntz? (Which house is yours?) "De Schvartze"

Velecher is dayn car? (Which is your car?) "De Schvartze"

Velecher mench is er? (Which guy is he?) "De Schvartze"

It's no more an insult to the person than it is to the car or the house. It's just the color black for heaven's sake.

Tell me any other way to describe black in Yiddish? There is none. People use euphemisms to refer to black people in Yiddish only because people spread that Schvartze was derogatory, but none of those are considered "proper" Yiddish.

Eh, what am I wasting my time for. When has the truth ever mattered to Shmarya anyway. I was gonna go on to the Hebrew, but why waste my time!

Eh, what am I wasting my time for. When has the truth ever mattered to Shmarya anyway. I was gonna go on to the Hebrew, but why waste my time!

Here is a comment about Ethiopian jews Translator left under the name Morris on July 13, 2010:

Do any of you really believe that you and these blacks are related? I for one don't believe I am related to these children of Cannan. "Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." - Gen 9:25 Oh, right, you don't believe in the bible.

He's also left comments under the names Moshe, Yossi, Hatzoloh Volunteer, Chaimkel, and other aliases.

In other words, this creep is a racist sockpuppet.

And he's now banned.

Apologies to Wild Cherry:

Once I was a frummie singer
Playin' in a Klezmer band
I never had no problems
Burnin' down the chasunah stands
And everything around me
Got to start to feelin' so low
And I decided quickly
Go off the derech, check out the show
Yea they were dancin' and singin' and movin' to the groovin'
And just when it hit me somebody turned around and shouted

Chorus:
Play that Kushi music white Jew
Play that Kushi music right
Play that Kushi music white Jew
Lay down that chumrah and play that Kushi music 'til you schrei
'til you schrei, oy 'til you schrei

I tried to understand this,
I thought that they had meshugeneh minds.
How could I be so foolish (how could I),
to not see the rabbi checking my behind.
But still I kept on davening,
nu, schuckling every step of the way.
I said I must go back there,
and check and see if things (are) still the same

Repeat Chorus

(Solo)
Nu, wait a minute

Now first it wasn't easy
Changin' Klezmer shows at first
And things were gettin' shaky
I thought I'd have to leave it rehearsed
But now it's so much better
I'm rocking out in every way
But I'll never lose my tefillin
And how I learned my Torah that day
When they were dancin' and singin' and movin' to the groovin'
And just when it hit me somebody turned around and shouted

Repeat Chorus:

They shouted-
Play that Kushi music (5x)

This image seems to summarize a lot:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/05/11/
nazi-jazz-propaganda/

Shmaryah,you dirty filthy rat,you know very well that Kushi in hebrew is black and not nigger.

Shmaryah,you dirty filthy rat,you know very well that Kushi in hebrew is black and not nigger.

No it is not.

Kushi may be impolite word , just like calling in the states calling Asian people Orientals. But there is no way you can compare Kushi to Nigger.

Rav Lior was a rabbi on the beit din which converted Shannon Orand. he was not afraid of Tropper and his gang.

Person who is not afraid of arabs and haredis ( sorry for the redundancy) is a good man in my book.

"Amazing. Instead of talking about the message that this guy is promoting, you guys are arguing over a literal translation of a word. Whether it means nigger, black guy, or homie. It really dowsn't matter what the exact translation is. What's important is the core message he's sending."

Posted by: Tonda
*******************************

Oy Tondele, mein shaina Tondele,

The "core message" is not important. The "rabbi" is a rabid loser who does not deserve a platform. Nobody expects better from him. Not the lefties on FailedMessiah and not the righties either.

The big concern here is that Shmarya, A) uses the N-word in a headline, parentheses notwithstanding and, B) used poor discretion in quoting in his headline something that the subject did not utter. The latter is very disturbing to a number of Shmarya-following-hareidi-haters because they find that Shmarya's headlines and reportings are becoming deceptive devices intended to anger and inflame.

They read that a Hareidi used the N-word, and they read the article to find out that some nobody doofus who pretends to speak for hareidim was just saying the usual stupid drivel that they would have expected.

Shmarya is the real perverted Kike here. Don't listen to his Jungle rants, and you'll feel better about mainstream Jews.


The word כושי, like the word Negro, was once an acceptable way of referring to Black people, and is today considered derogatory. It is hardly as offensive as that other word.

This is hardly the first of example of disingenuous and sensational headline-writing on this blog. Kinda similar to the Yated.

While Kushi is a derogatory word it is not in the same league as the N word and pretending it is is misleading at best and incendiary at worst.

I am not defending this nutcase of a rabbi but that doesn't excuse distorting the record. Were he speaking in English would he have used the N word? Almost certainly not. So why do you put words in his mouth?

As an analogy, would you say that any derogatory word for a Jew in any language translates automtically into English as 'kike'? Or are there degrees and nuances in insults particular to the language which don't translate readily?

WSC,
Yiddish is what i speak all day. So i know what word is used when. I don't speak or write Yiddish as the yiddishisten from the forward were they are using it professional.
I understand Yiddish better then you do English. And among thousands of orthodox Jews when they say on a black male "schvartza" its simple said as in describing the person and not in a derogatory way. All the political correctness will not change this fact.

Posted by: Cheskel | August 23, 2010 at 06:03 PM


yiddish is also my first language, but in reality it all depends on context. But usually it is derogatory but not necessarily

I think we need to lock this guy up and make him listen to 24 hours of ac/dc and then he will be rocking like a metal head

Seymour, I almost always agree with you, but I am a big fan of AC/DC.
This shmuck rabbi does not deserve to listen to the 'Thunda from Down Unda'.

Obviously, the rabbi has never had the joy of hearing Otis Day & the Knights perform Shout.

wow,
he himself looks aryan alright!
but what is he doing among jews?

it is not in the same league as the N word and pretending it is is misleading at best and incendiary at worst.

well david, in this context, his whole message is ugly nothing to do with the word itself.

For those who insist "kushi" is a translation of "nigger," please, pretty please, outline the comparative etymologies side-by-side and demonstrate how you get from "kushi" to "nigger." Kushi is Semitic if not African in orgin, while nigger comes from the Latin via French or Spanish.

That some DIB, who knows halting English, translates "kushi" as "nigger" "is hardly proof at all, considering that that DIB's English vocabulary is probably limited itself to a thousand or two thousand words. As a native English (American) speaker, I could have offered a grab bag of alternatives: spade, jungle bunny, spear chucker, monkey, coon, darkie, watermelon eater, along with Pickaninny and Jemeima, depending on age and gender.

I would suggest that "Kushi" is closer to "spear chucker" because it resonates in Hebrew with an ancient African tribe or geographic area where they presumably used spears. But that doesn't really work, because "spear chucker" is wholly a negative epithet with no redeeming geographic or cultural usage.

The Wikipedia has a nice article on modern vs. traditional uses of the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushi

This discussion reminds me of the "water buffalo" incident at Penn a few years back.

Says "Nigger" Music

Did he use the "N" word or was it put in to stroke anti-Semitism by triggering watchdog groups and media outlets that are on the “Google” lookout for people using the "forbidden" word. Now I am asking explicitly if the "N" word was used, not a hebrew translation since one can argue that the term "blacks" is the same as "N" but the later is inflammatory and racist.

I erred: The Isley Brothers does the original and better version of Shout!

As a native English (American) speaker, I could call AEA an a-hole - and I shall.

"well david, in this context, his whole message is ugly nothing to do with the word itself."

Posted by: Yosef ben Matitya
*********************

Everyone condems the whole message.

Many here are saying that Shmarya is being deceptive and intentionally incediary.

The "rabbi" is in character. At least he is not being a hypocrite. Shmarya is a hypocrite, because he is condemning somebody for using the N-word (although they haven't) while Shmarya uses the N-word explicitly several times. It's like the pot calling the kettle a nigga.

Methinks the rabbi and "Dr." Coach Laura should hook up.

Actually, as an American Jew, I can tell you absolutely that all words depend on context; who's using the word, what circumstance is the word being used in, and what kind of intonation is being placed on the word. When my American Jewish brethren use the word "schvartza", it is never in a neutral or positive way. There are always undertones. And besides, what should really be important is how the term is taken by those being described. I'm sure any Jew can understand that certain terms used to describe us are offensive, regardless of their dictionary definition.

Shmaryah,you dirty filthy rat,you know very well that Kushi in hebrew is black and not nigger.

No it is not

Okay, this is just anecdotal, but many years ago, I went on a date with a girl from Netanya. I had never been to Israel, and my knowledge of Israeli Hebrew at the time was scant.

For some reason, I asked her, "How do Israelis refer to black people? "Do you call them Cushim?" I think it was because I had been thinking about a recent discussion I had had with a friend from Israel and another from Iran about whether or not calling Tzippora a Cushi woman was a complementary thing.

Anyway, her jaw just dropped because we were walking about Brooklyn among crowds of people, many of whom were black. As a native speaker of Hebrew, she reflexively reacted as if the people around us could understand the word "Cushim." She whispered to me, "We say, 'Shachorim.'"

Take it for what it's worth. If you don't like it, do your own "field" research. ;-)

Now "shvartze" was a perfectly good word to use until the shvartzes started to riot in Newark and other places full of Yidden so now it means something worse. I agree with this rabbi in Hebron. A yeshiva bachur I know began to listen to the music of the colored, then he got involved with drugs, and he became involved with heroin, stole from pishkas, stopped davening, ate pork, and finally, went to mixed dances with shiksas. From china no less! Chinese women are stealing Jewish men and so Jewish women cry, this is a fact, and it all begins with this jungle music.

The word nigger is a southern American mispronunciation of the word Niger which is a river region in Africa. The root origins of it are innocent enough. However because of its historical use of that word being completely hate based there is the taboo.

While the colloquial Hebrew expression kushi might be somewhat politically incorrect. It does not have the derogatory connotation of the word nigger.

To the best of my so called knowledge kushim is pluaral for blacks.

Not dirty fuckin' lowlife "nigger".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

"Now "shvartze" was a perfectly good word to use until the shvartzes started to riot in Newark and other places full of Yidden so now it means something worse. I agree with this rabbi in Hebron. A yeshiva bachur I know began to listen to the music of the colored, then he got involved with drugs, and he became involved with heroin, stole from pishkas, stopped davening, ate pork, and finally, went to mixed dances with shiksas. From china no less! Chinese women are stealing Jewish men and so Jewish women cry, this is a fact, and it all begins with this jungle music."

And then Kevin Bacon moved into the small kibbutz and corrupted it with his music and dancing. And after that they made it into a Broadway mucical.

The word nigger is a southern American mispronunciation of the word Niger which is a river region in Africa

You are correct in that it stems from the South, but more precisely, it derives from the Spanish or Portuguese negro by way of the Latin word for "black" -- niger. Hence, many Southerns say "negra" when trying to say "negro."

Southern by Birth: Ask me anything.

The right of reply to Lior should be given to Matisyahu.

I always use to hear the word Schormim-Black ones used as a perjorative and more offensive
then Cushim

Ex: Dont go down Allenby at night all the Schorim hang around there.

Someone claimed that everyone here condemns the rabbi's message. Well, I don't. He has a right to his opinion about music. You and I are free to disagree. But all of the other people here who termed it in not very polite terms as this other guy I referred to, and instead of "condemning the message" actually cursed this great man, need to do serious teshuva. You wouldn't like it if someone was cursing you on the internet either. Rav Dov Lior does not deserve to be called names and cursed by the ingrates who visit this site.

Shmarya, ya' know, it's ok to admit you're wrong with this one. The similarities between the words "kushim" and "nigger" are small; the differences are very large indeed.

shmarya....
i don't know what to say....but i got a good laugh after you banned someone above.
i think it's so funny. *meant nicely*

let's see....in my experience kushim etc. is not meant in a very nice way.
at. all.
yes, people use the word...but sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.
just sayin....

What word Ayatollah Dov Lior used to describe the "jungle" music he doesn't like is almost immaterial.

The fact is that Ayatollah Lior is very much reminiscent of those music executives, disk jockeys, and others who fulminated against rock 'n roll in the 1950's. The spiritual forebears of Ayatollah Lior are those assholes who forced Pat Boone upon us as an ersatz Little Richard and Fats Domino, and Georgia Gibbs as an ersatz Etta James.

Ayatollah Dov Lior, you are a disgrace to both music and Judaism. May you rot in hell while being forced to listen to Pat Boone singing "Long Tall Sally" for all eternity. Why Pat Boone? Because you'd probably get to like Little Richard, especially once you get to "know" him in a Biblical sense.

As an alternative eternal punishment, the esteemed rabbi can be forced to listen to Carly Simon and James Taylor's duet of "Mockingbird," a song best known by Inez and Charlie Foxx and best performed by Aretha Franklin.

Even though Carly now claims to be black.

In my experience cushi - and shvartza since the point has been mentioned above - are often used derogatorily. Not that they have to be, just as ‘goy’ is not in and of itself a pejorative. Still, it has so often been used in such a way that it’s developed more than a bit of connotation in the common and to the unfamiliar.
That does not automatically or axiomatically equate it with nigger. This seems to be more of a 'gained in translation' situation, where it may be reasonable to state that the closest analogue to cushi in English is nigger, that does not mean that they are at all equal in the respective culture. From another view, while nigger can be used in a positive-ish manner between black people, cushi 'can' have neutral, but never really positive connotations, so the terms don’t equate in the other direction either. Still, it is inaccurate (IMO) to state (as Shamrya does) they unequivocally are equal. And it is certainly untrue the Rabbi meant it as such. (IMO...again) He would more likely have used something like 'homeboys', 'thugs', or 'blacks', ‘hiphop people’, etc., but with a derisive twang. Regardless of what he would have used, he almost certainly would not have used nigger.

Without injecting my opinion into the matter, the idea of 'jungle music', is certainly not new, nor particularly Jewish. Alan Bloom discusses it in the Closing of The American Mind , and songs such as Jungle Boogie, Jungle Fever, etc., (both under black authorship) associate 'jungle' or more primal elements, with at least black American culture, if not black people. Of course, you can look at CCR's 'Run Through The Jungle' for example, to see it in popular white culture as well.
There are times when it is far easier to appeal to the more primal elements of man to inspire us. These are invariably for the more mundane, physical activities such as sports, battle, sex, or Rocky lifting a large wooden cart during a montage in the dead of Russian winter. That said, this is possibly why the Torah has such strict rules about all but the first and last of the above examples. While it is difficult, the belief I think is that humans are capable of 'elevating' even our most physical actions to a more spiritual level. So, perhaps there's something to the idea of relying on a Bach cantata during a run, than, say, Eye of The Tiger.

Where a Belzer march fits into all this I have no idea.

jesus h. christ on a crutch, shmarya, you are one ignorant cracker. stirring up hate in this way, and using haaretz (!) as your source on hebrew definitions just shows your ignorance and malevolence. really, i thought you spent some time learning the hebrew language, it was apparently wasted time. and now you use your ignorance and disingenuousness to get "hits" and stir up hatred. i agree with you on many matters, and am no fan of the stulpidity spouted by our rabbinical leaders, but you are no better than them, and for the same reasons. shame!

I'm really sorry to say it, Shmarya, but you blew it this time. I have lived in Israel for 40 years and the only two words I know for black people are כושי or שחור. They are pretty much used interchangeably. Either can be used in a derogatory manner - depends on context and intonation. You can't say אפריקאי simply because many (most) sepharadi Jews are North African. Look in Ch.12 of sefer Bamidbar, it refers to האישה הכושית who Moshe married. The "black Jews" of Dimona are always refered to as כושים עבריים even in Haaretz. Your headline is simply inappropriate - overkill. What Lior is saying is trash without looking to introduce an issue which is not there. You and Haaretz simply both want to blacken him more - but why bother, his words are bad enough as is. You blew it. It is wierd that you insist on defending yourself - to the extent that the nastiness of Lior's words are forgotten. מודה ועוזב ירוחם

The rabbis are dead set against fornication / premarital sex because they are afraid it might lead to mixed dancing to Boogie - Woogie music!!!

this summarizes it all.

You and Haaretz simply both want to blacken him more - but why bother, his words are bad enough as is. You blew it. It is wierd that you insist on defending yourself - to the extent that the nastiness of Lior's words are forgotten. מודה ועוזב ירוחם

You know very well that chushi and chushim are pejorative words in current Modern Hebrew usage.

What you are doing is in effect saying that goy is not a pejorative word because it means nation, when you know very well that many example of current uses of the word are pejorative.

Someone above noted that you have to hear the word used in context and hear the inflection to know whether the word is being used pejoratively or not.

Ha'aretz heard the word used by Lior in context and reported that usage as pejorative.

As for use of אפריקאי, the music of North Africa is generally known as Middle Eastern or Arabic music. Even so, someone wanting to distinguish it from black African music could use the term Sub-Saharan African music.

But you are right about one thing.

What Lior did is horrible no matter the usage of the word cushim.

Rather than see anti-religious conspiracies spun by Ha'aretz and myself to make Lior more racist than he already is, people would be wise to focus on Lior's actual racism.

I looked through my back issues of Maledicta, an actual scholarly journal dedicated to insults, abuse, blasphemy and other "bad words". I consulted with the editor who is probably the world's foremost authority on the subject.

Yes, "Kushim" and "Kushi" are the Hebrew equivalents of the American English "Nigger". They are just as pejorative.

the word "shvartza" has different connotations when used by an English speaking Jew, than it does when used by a Yiddish speaker. In Yiddish it just means black. When used by an english speaker, someone who would never refer to a house or suit of clothes as "shvartze" it definitely has derogatory connotations. Though even then its a tad softer than the N word, if only cause users of "shvartze" are less likely to have used weapons to enforce their prejudices.

My sense from the above is that Kushim is derogatory, but not as radioactive as the N word.

Anyway, if I were the rabbi in kiryat arba, I sure wouldnt want to add to my list of enemies right now.

Bartley and Nigritude: Growing up I would hear other kids use words I did not understand but created quite an emotional response. I would go look them up in my trusty dictionary. That is how I learned that Niger, a river in Africa, Jaguar, a large South American cat, and Immanual Kant, an 18th Century philospher, really really pissed people off.

It's ridiculous to argue that Lior is not a racist. I was only 6 years old and found official definitions of the words that indicated that they should not be offensive. However, I still knew that they were words used to insult people. What's Lior's excuse? Claiming it is a language problem is pretty lame.

"As for use of אפריקאי, the music of North Africa is generally known as Middle Eastern or Arabic music. Even so, someone wanting to distinguish it from black African music could use the term Sub-Saharan African music."

Wrong. As a published ethnomusicologist in Israel, once again this is wrong. North African music is entirely separate from Arabic music, and is known as tzon afrikai, or Ala', or Andalus. Never Arabic or Middle Eastern. Once again, you are betraying the fact that writing from Minnesota on Israeli issues shows that you have no idea what you are talking about on certain matters. This use of the N* word is an ugly provocation and makes one wonder just what your purpose is with this blog, and I'm pretty sure it may not be what most of the readers and usual supporters like me thought it is was.

"Rock 'n roll was conceived in Russia to warp the minds of American youth"
Rev. Jack Van Impe late 1950's

Reb Dov Lior, speaking like a galach!!!
Chas v'shalom!!!

That's one big ass chillul hashem if you ask me.

Hey Reb Dov - It's the beat...the beat...the beat

For a site that is sensitive to incitement,you are pretty adept at it as well.
Kushi in Hebrew does not have the meaning of nigger.You may not agree with the Rabbi's opinion but claiming that he said nigger is a little too much.
Shimon Naftalis

AC, my experience playing Mahgrebi and Middle Eastern music is limited to a little percussion, mostly doumbek and a tiny bit of riqq.

Even a duffer like me can tell the difference between say Berber and Peninsular Arabian music. But I'm not sure about the "entirely separate" part. At least in what I'm familiar with a lot of the techniques, fingerings, basic rhythms and standard breaks are not confined to just one ethnicity or sub-region.

There are musicologists who refer to "Arabo-Andalusian" music as if the two were not completely distinct.

What periods in history and what level of granularity are you using to make the distinction?

"""What you are doing is in effect saying that goy is not a pejorative word because it means nation, when you know very well that many example of current uses of the word are pejorative"""



There is a saying: Good Yiddish makes bad English.Meaning,you cant translate words to be exact.
In describing a gentile,you say a goy. A black person you say a schvrtza. There is no other way saying it in Yiddish.

This use of the N* word is an ugly provocation and makes one wonder just what your purpose is with this blog, and I'm pretty sure it may not be what most of the readers and usual supporters like me thought it is was.

You're full of it.

You know very well that cushi is a derogatory term for black people in 2010 Modern Hebrew usage.

But, like always, you have decided that Ha'aretz is wrong and I am wrong. Why? because if we're right, it makes your guy look very bad.

So process this: If you admit cushi is a derogatory term in today's Hebrew language, anything you've written against me in this regard is false.


There is a saying: Good Yiddish makes bad English.Meaning,you cant translate words to be exact.
In describing a gentile,you say a goy. A black person you say a schvrtza. There is no other way saying it in Yiddish.

Lior was speaking Hebrew.

A Nuran writes:

I looked through my back issues of Maledicta, an actual scholarly journal dedicated to insults, abuse, blasphemy and other "bad words". I consulted with the editor who is probably the world's foremost authority on the subject.

Yes, "Kushim" and "Kushi" are the Hebrew equivalents of the American English "Nigger". They are just as pejorative.
even though this is true, AC still claims Ha'aretz and I are wrong.

Why?

Because in his mind, only he can be correct, so therefore anyone and everyone else must be wrong.

I was refering to what you said:


"""What you are doing is in effect saying that goy is not a pejorative word because it means nation, when you know very well that many example of current uses of the word are pejorative""

I was refering to what you said:

Are you really so ill-educated that you think goy is never a pejorative word?

Past that, generally when using goy to refer to another nation, goy is modified by the name of that other nation or by another modifier, like the word for other.

When goy is being used to mean a non-Jew, it is often modified, as well. (Shabbos goy, for example.)

But when goy is being used pejoratively, it is often not modified.

""""Are you really so ill-educated that you think goy is never a pejorative word?

Past that, generally when using goy to refer to another nation, goy is modified by the name of that other nation or by another modifier, like the word for other.

When goy is being used to mean a non-Jew, it is often modified, as well. (Shabbos goy, for example.)

But when goy is being used pejoratively, it is often not modified.""""

Something is really getting to you,silly.

When someone asks what is he a Yid or a goy?

Who lives in that neighborhood,Yidden or goyim?

Go talk to him er iz a feiner goy or a schlactar goy

In the Torah goy means a nation when referring to yidden or to goyim.


CORRECTION:

According to the sources "Kushim" is pejorative but not necessarily to the same degree as nigger. The cultural context of American racial history and Israeli ethnic politics are different. So the weighting and meanings will be different as well.

Still an insulting term. But comes with a different set of nuances.

Something is really getting to you,silly.

When someone asks what is he a Yid or a goy?

Who lives in that neighborhood,Yidden or goyim?

Go talk to him er iz a feiner goy or a schlactar goy

In the Torah goy means a nation when referring to yidden or to goyim.

So you really are that ill-educated.

You should sue your teachers and your yeshiva.

Oh my f*cking god. I AM a Black Jew. A member of the African diaspora, and the Judean diaspora.

I've never been called a 'shvartze' or a 'cushin' (or if I have, I've blocked it out mentally. But something tells me that Shmarya is probably RIGHT on this word. I've spoken to friends and read online blogs by other Jews of color who have been called "Shvartze" not as a term of respect or neutrality, but clearly an insult.

I'm GLAD that Shmarya used an inflammatory word in the subject heading; if he hadn't, there's no way most people would have understood what this "rabbi" had really said.

Effie, maybe Immanuel Kant, but certainly Genghis Khan...

"Whoever is more barbaric is noisier."

i dont know whether to take that as a compliment or an insult. but i think that as punishment for reb lior's complete ignorance of music and anything musical, he should be forced to sit in a room and listen to nothing except early sonic youth, lightning bolt, and merzbow, all at maximum volume.

and in regards to the n-word/kushim debate, i think that the n-word is an inadequate translation of kushim, but only because what this brain washing hate mongerer actually meant to say was 10 times worse than the n-word and kushim combined. if there was a hebrew word for "n-word to the n-word power," this guy would surely have said that.

Mamzer,

You ain't really black, just a little dark.

You don't have to lie about your race in order to add validitiy to your opinion.

Also, Shmarya, you Kike,

"goy" is not a perjorative term ever. It is like "homeboy", not positive or negative, but can be used in either CONTEXT. For example: "That homeboy can't tie his shoes!" - where homeboy is neutral, but the context aggravates its intent.

In: "I always knew my homeboys would bail me out!" - homeboy is neutral but the context reflects positively on the reference "homeboys".

Question for all the language scholars here:

What is the Hebrew colloquial equivalent of "Kike"? How about "Spic"? "Chink"? "Faggot"? "WOP"? "Congressman?"

"What you are doing is in effect saying that goy is not a pejorative word because it means nation, when you know very well that many example of current uses of the word are pejorative.

Someone above noted that you have to hear the word used in context and hear the inflection to know whether the word is being used pejoratively or not.

Ha'aretz heard the word used by Lior in context and reported that usage as pejorative."

LOL, yeah that's real reliable. They just reported. They have NOTHING against Rabbi Dov Lior! They have no biases. They have no political agenda. They are pure and innocent and would never tell a lie; they are more honest than Abe Lincoln and George Washington combined, AND they don't involve themselves in politics! Just reporting. Give me a break. What a freakin joke.

" The "black Jews" of Dimona are always refered to as כושים עבריים even in Haaretz. "

Really? Why is haaretz so racist? And why do the Dimona Jews and the American "Black Hebros" call themselves black or kushim? Are they racist too? Against themselves?

Music was created to PRAISE GOD. Ask King DAVID. How much music do you hear that PRAISES GOD? Do you sing rap songs that only glorify man? Music is created to GLORIFY GOD, to sing his praises on high. Let the words of you lips drip like honey from the comb. King DAVID is an example of what music is. Why utter words that tear down and destroy, why not sing words that uplift and glorify? Listen to words you speak, do they enhance life or do they speak of the misery of life. The choice is yours, I choice GODs music.

In English the worst word one can say regarding Blacks is the 'N' word

In Hebrew I am understanding that the worst word one can use regarding 'Blacks' is 'Kushi'
IF I am right then

Kushi = 'N' word

So the Israeli person who uses 'Kushi' if overnight was turned to be an American would now use the 'N' word

Isa,

That's a very superficial argument. Your logic assumes these 'worst' cases equate. In fact, since there's been no slavery or similar history of racial inequality in Israel or among the Jewish people as a nation (certainly not to the degree in contemporary times as the US has had), then the context is so different as to invalidate your syllogism.

As an example, my 'bad' day that I had last week I could not compare to the 'bad' day an Aushwitz survivor had in the camps. Both 'bad' days, both even the worst we've had, completely different meaning. Therefore my 'bad' does not equal his 'bad'. Not a perfect analogy as they are different terms, but I hope you see the distinction.

Isa,

Just to continue, as I left what I wrote incomplete (for me at least ;))...given the broader scale of meaning, and terms, available in the American experience/lexicon, it would be just as easy to map cushi to any number of words, from black to nigger. It's my opinion that the Rabbi, foolish though he may be, would not have gone straight to the top of the US spectrum. In other words, the top of the Israeli spectrum is not the top of the US.

Take care.

Heychey, music is created by people for whatever use they want to put it to. Sometimes it's religious. Most of the time it isn't. And so what? Why should everything be religion 24 hours a day, seven days a week and twice on Shabbos?

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------

----------------

Please Scroll Down Toward The Bottom Of This Page For More Search Options And For A List Of Recent Posts

Recent Posts

Audio: Rabbi Eliezer Silver on Child Sexual Abuse.

Do you need help leaving an ultra-Orthodox community or navigating life outside one? Call Footsteps.

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar
Jibbadgefinalist

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

Comment Rules

  • 1. No anonymous comments.

    2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.

    3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.

    4. Do not sockpuppet.

    5. Try to argue using facts and logic.

    6. Do not lie.

    7. No name-calling, please.

    8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.

    ***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Rubashkin Protest Gear

  • Rubashkin_parody_1

    Buy one of these and wear it to shul. Other Rubashkin gear as well. Protest!
  • Rubashkin_label_parody_1

    Wear this amazing T-shirt to your local supermarket. Better yet, buy a dozen and bring your friends – with signs! Available here!

Older Posts Complete Archives

Search FailedMessiah

Lijit Search

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com in the Media

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

RSS Feed

Blog Widget by LinkWithin