Modern Orthodox Rabbis: Call Police Even On Shabbat

After neighbors did not call police when a father murdered his three children on Shabbat, Tzohar rabbis issue "halakhic clarification."

Rabbis: Call police even on Shabbat
After neighbors hesitated to call police when father murdered his three children, Tzohar rabbis issue halachic clarification
Ynet

The recent murder of three children by their father on a Saturday shocked the nation and will certainly not be forgotten. When one sees such inhuman cruelty, and even in less shocking cases, it is clear that action must be taken to prevent such horrors – yet Itay Ben Dror's religious neighbors were undecided about calling the police and reporting the case.

On Thursday, the rabbis of the Tzohar organization issued a clarification emphasizing the halachic aspect which allows, and even compels, the calling of the police on Shabbat.

The notice issued by the organization read, "Following the terrible act of murder in Netanya and the neighbors' avoidance of calling the police for fear of desecrating  the Shabbat, we wish to issue this notice to announce that when there is danger to life everyone must contact the police even on Shabbat, and thereby keep the commandment, 'Thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour'."

The signatories include a long and distinguished list of rabbis, such as Yaacov Ariel, Aharon Lichtenstein, Haim Druckman, Shlomo Aviner, Ram Hacohen, Haim Navon, David Stav, Rafi Feyerstein, Shai Piron and Israel Rozen.

On Wednesday, Ben Dror was deemed fit to be detained at the Ramla Magistrates' Court. Family members of the victims Roni, Or and Omer were also present.

"They're no longer his children," said Albert Shem-Tov, the brother of the children's mother, Lilach. "We came to see him from up close, because I want to see him and make sure he gets the punishment he deserves after what he did to the children and the family."

Why Orthodox Jews would not know this simple, foundational halakha is beyond me. I'm glad the rabbis' "clarification" was issued, but I have no idea why it became necessary to do so, why religious Jews could stand by as children were murdered because these religious Jews feared breaking the Sabbath.

Who in their right minds would not call police as children are being murdered?

Since when has the Sabbath been more important than Jewish lives? (Sadly, it was at one time more important than non-Jewish lives and in some circles may still be so. But this is a subject for another post.)

Comments

[effie]

Anytime anyone is being murdered you call the police - not just with children. And if you are a real good neighbor, grab a weapon and stop the murderer.

[steve]

Who in their right minds would not call police as children are being murdered?

Or molested. Only a chassid shoteh. We have too many of them amongst us, unfortunately.

[Common sense]

If religion does not enable one to love G-d more and love their fellow human being more then what good is it? Love here is caring for another human. CALL THE POLICE! Be compassionate then follow the rules. In that order!!! How hard is it anyhow?

[Menachem Mendel lll]

I know of no other religious group that needs to be instructed that it is not acceptable to see someone being murdered and just let it go and forget about it.

Goyim, Buddists, Muslims, Shinto and you name it would never remain silent as innocent children are being murdered.

Looks like "we" are remaining silent like the world remained silent during WWll.
Very nice!

So whats with "us" yidden.
Children can murdered on Shabos.
The elderly can also be murdered on Shabos.

I am uber proud to be a Yid.
How luck me is!

If I was drowning these frum fuckers would push my head down under the H2O instead of helping me in accordance with their pekuach nefesh and tekkuneleh olamkehleh.

A goy, chinaman, shvartz, indian and eskimo would care more for a jewish neshuma than a yiddeleh full of frumkite.

Please tell me where to send my gelt so they can contiune not working because work is a 4 letter word.

[Yosef ben Matiya]

i wonder what the gerer rebbe or elioshiv or aharonov or wolfo make of this!
well, ok they are not really into holokho!

[Jason]

And in other news, the leading Rabbis of Israel and the Diaspora have clarified that if a pregnant woman goes into labor on Shabbat, there is no requirement that she "hold it in" until after Shabbat.

It's embarrassing that such obvious things need to be "clarified" by Rabbis. Any kid in the elementary grades of a Modern Orthodox American Jewish Day School knows that you can violate the Shabbat to save a life, and that you can eat treif if someone holds a gun to your head and demands that you do so.

[against hypocrisy]

it is simply staggering that misunderstood meticulous observance of Shabbat would take precedent over human lives. have we all become completely desensitized to human life, and robotized to religious observance?

[Justice Seeker]

Perhaps the neighbors were not orthodox, or perhaps not Jewish. Does anyone know?

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

You see, our rabbis were right, "rabbi" Weiss' slippery slop, first a woman leads services, then calling the police on shabbat to prevent a murder. Next thing, MO "rabbis" permit pork

[Catcher50]

I wish I could say that I was appalled that anyone would hesitate to call the police (or an ambulance in a different, life threatening circumstance) whether it was Shabbat, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashannah, the middle of a Seder or whatever, but unfortunately, I'm not. It's as though the Haredim confirm and reconfirm the worst that you can conceive about them.

OTOH, Effie...unless you are a professional, trained law enforcement officer or similar, do not pick up a weapon and interfere. Doing so is likely to exacerbate the situation and maybe get yourself seriously hurt or worse.

[the usual chaim.]

is the woman sane? i mean, we are supposing here that she was in her right mind and was simply unaware (WTF) that she must call on shabat. but its just so absurd that someone would not know this to the point that I wonder if the assumption is correct. If it is correct then what the hell is going on in the school she went to?

[Yonah]

Even if she thought it was assur to call, why the hell didn't she run out and tell people or do something else??

[effie]

"Posted by: Catcher50 OTOH, Effie...unless you are a professional, trained law enforcement officer or similar, do not pick up a weapon and interfere. Doing so is likely to exacerbate the situation and maybe get yourself seriously hurt or worse."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More likely one would stop innocent people from getting slaughtered. I'll heed my own advice.

[silly]

OK silly ones,

This was not about PREVENTING a murder, they were already dead.

The question is can you report finding a dead body on shobbos to the police.

Yes, still a stupid question, but a very different one.

[silly]

I’m not sure of the specifics, but let me ask the following.

If you find a body on shobbos, and 1) you’re absolutely sure they are dead 2) You are absolutely sure the murderer is no longer a danger to the public.

What makes you think that calling the Police on shobbos is allowed?

[Schneersontology]

Halacha by definition is not based on common sense.

[anuran]

Good for the Modern Orthodox. What about the Haredi rabbinate?

[who knows]

Scary

[Streimel Shmuley]

Ok I no this is not popular, but calling the police once leads to calling police again and then you are watching a television or doing on the internet. I think whatever brings Moshiach soon is what we should do and who is to say she did not have this in her heart? We should not judge so quick.

[effie]

"OK silly ones, This was not about PREVENTING a murder, they were already dead."

You're sounding like an ass. The little girl could be heard screaming and crying, "don't, daddy." She was not dead. And if the police had been called the EMTs would also arrive and the kids, even if stabbed, may have had a fighting chance. Then again all the haredi nutters would have tried to stop the children being rushed to the hospital. Sickening.

"If you find a body on shobbos, and 1) you’re absolutely sure they are dead 2) You are absolutely sure the murderer is no longer a danger to the public."

How on earth can you be sure that the murderer is no longer a danger unless he is taken into custody? You can't! And the longer the delay after a crime, the longer it takes to discover who is the murderer, too.

[David]

Its amazing that the Charedim have become so mindless and robotised that they 1) don't know Halacha and 2) don't know to call police to prevent a murder. Essentially, these people have forfeited their contract with humanity and the Jewish people.

As someone else said, there is no other people on earth for whom their "leadership" would need to "clarify" to them they it was their duty to call police under a certain circumstance in order to prevent a murder.

Does this woman - and the Charedim generally - have any idea what grave danger they have placed all of the world's Jewish people in by their actions and attitudes?

And - we - the "Chosen People"?

[Abe Silberstein]

Echo to Schneersontology. Who actually expects halacha to fit in with real life situations?

[David]

There obsession the Charedim have with following supposed Halacha with ever increasing stringencies and stringencies upon ever more stringiences and failing to understand what Judaism is all about (harm no others and be productive with one's G-d given talents) is a form of idolatory and yet another reason that the Charedim should be cast out from among the Jewish people.

[Shlomo]

Why nothing from Chareidi Rabbis as others have posted but why nothing from the Rabbanut
(Tzohar are a progressive group within the Rabbanut).
I remember learning in Shulchan Aruch that if people have to ask a town Rabbi if you can transgress Shabbat to save a life than the Rabbi is not doing a good job, they should already know

[Common sense]

Well put David !!!

[Shmarya]

"OK silly ones, This was not about PREVENTING a murder, they were already dead."

You're sounding like an ass. The little girl could be heard screaming and crying, "don't, daddy." She was not dead. And if the police had been called the EMTs would also arrive and the kids, even if stabbed, may have had a fighting chance.

Effie, you're absolutely 100% correct.

The scary thing is the guy you're responding to couldn't figure this out on his own.

As for his equally foolish question about finding the bodies and "knowing" the murderer is no longer a danger to the public, short of the murderer being dead, no one can know with certainty that the murderer is no danger to the public.

Past that, there are issues of possible accomplices, degrading of evidence, etc., that impact the prosecution of the case and the security of the public.

The problem here is that haredim are spoon fed Talmud and, except for the elite few, they never learn how to reason, use logic or think. This is especially true for hasidim.

Combine that with an abysmal lack of secular education and you get questions like 'silly' asked.

[seymour]

It is not that hard to believe this story. If one cannot go to authorities to stop molesters even if the person is still hangs out in the community.

Not calling the police on shabbos to save a soul is the logical step

[Isa]

Dear EFFIE

"""""

"Posted by: Catcher50 OTOH, Effie...unless you are a professional, trained law enforcement officer or similar, do not pick up a weapon and interfere. Doing so is likely to exacerbate the situation and maybe get yourself seriously hurt or worse."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More likely one would stop innocent people from getting slaughtered. I'll heed my own advice.

Posted by: effie | August 03, 2010 at 02:54 PM """"

Its OK to STOP murderers in Texas.
{Nuance: Somebody trying to kill you but you kill them... You tell the police I had to STOP them NOT KILL them}

Isa from Texas

[al Farabi]

When people acknowledge that orthodox judaism is a cult, then perhaps steps will be taken to start educating people to protect them from the cult. Of course the same applies to christianity and islam. As a jew, I make an effort to try and keep my kids in touch with their jewish roots, for instance, by reading to them the laws of damages from the rambam's mishneh torah. I was doing this the other morning, while being assisted by their black nanny in getting them all dressed and ready for school. Fortunately, while I was reading, I had scanned ahead - what do I see there? That what I had read to them in the previous paragraphs only applies to jews, not to non-jews. So, practically, what does this mean for me as a South African jew? this means that my black, non-jewish nanny can be entrusted with the lives of my children, but if I borrow an article from her, I don't need to look after it, because she is a non-jew, so I am not liable. I have never come across such disgusting, bigotted crap in my life - although, I confess, I haven't read "Mein Kampf" yet - perhaps I should, and then I would feel better about the shit that is written by the rambam and some of my other co-religionists.

[Radical Feminist]

We are not permitted to call the police if the victims of the murder are non-Jews correct? Is this the actual law or is their another view from within Orthodox circles. Just curious. When I was living in Israel I heard a Devar Torah stating only a Jew could be saved on Shabbat. Is their a modern Orthodox or Talmudic refutation of that? Curious.

[Streimel Shmuley]

I asked my rebbe about these matters and he says it is all the same. One thing leads to another. This leads to that to avoda zora to mixed dancing and then what? This story is to shreik but we are in galus!

HASHEM SEND US MOSHIACH NOW!

[Reader]

alFarabi,
I think Jews were not meant to communicate freely with non-Jews and borrow their property.
Read up on Christian/Muslim laws for Jews.
How about getting your cildren a Jewish nanny?
Are all the South African Jews rich or gainfully employed that they disdain babysitting?

[Reader]

The children might get more Jewish values from a Jewish nanny and no Rambam than with a non-Jewish nanny plus Rambam.

[Hatzolah Volunteer]

Enough is enough!

I am a Hatzolah volunteer, and I, and hundreds of other "orthodox" volunteers break every Shabbos hundreds of times to respond to medical emergencies (the majority of which are not life-or-limb threatening).

These emergencies are called in by hundreds of "orthodox" Jews of all types: "ultra-orthodox" "chareidi" "chassidish" "modern-orthodox" "sephardi" "irreligious".

These emergencies are likewise responded to by Jews of every type.

The emergencies range from "I stubbed my toe" (I kid you not) to cardiac arrest. All of them get a response by a Jew. A Jew who drives, talks on the phone and breaks every rule of Shabbos to respond.

I myself am Chassidish, and I, and my chassidish friends respond to everyone equally on Shabbos.

Anyone who claims they didn't call on Shabbos because they were keeping Shabbos is either a moron (the typical "pious-idiot" described in the Gemara), or more likely, there's another reason the person didn't call, and they're blaming Shabbos as a convenient excuse.

You can typically see ambulances and cars with orthodox Hatzolah volunteers responding to and from shuls every Shabbos, so I personally don't believe that there's anyone who doesn't know that you are allowed to call on Shabbos. More likely it was an excuse made up to cover up something else.

[Shmarya]

You're confusing most of the Orthodox Jewish community in America with the various Orthodox communities in Israel.

[Abracadabra]

Shmarya,

I was under the impression that profanity was not permitted on this blog.

A poster by the name of "Menachem Mendel lll" REGULARLY uses extreme profanity, and it is getting sickening (and I would imagine others here are getting tired of it as well).

See the third-to-last paragraph on his post:

Posted by: Menachem Mendel lll | August 03, 2010 at 01:50 PM

Thanking you in advance for your attention to this matter.

[Shmarya]

You mean this?

"frum fuckers"

[Dr. Dave]

Is MM III using a derogatory term for chareidim or is he describing those suffering from a fetish in which the subjects have an inexplicable need to have sex with narrow minded, hypocritical chumra mongers?

[David]

Does anyone know whether the woman who allowed these children to be murdered has made any comment on her inaction?

[al Farabi]

Reader:
At first, I wasn't going to bother to answer you - I usually don't respond to foolish, bigotted comments like the ones you've made above. Our nanny is one of the finest, most refined humans beings that I have ever had the privelege of meeting, and that includes all the jews and orthodox rabbis that I have met. I cannot think of a more decent human being for them to be around and learn derech eretz from than her. Your comment about getting them a jewish nanny just illustrates your narrow-mindedness so graphically - you're a disgusting human being for making such comments.

[chaim1]

To Hatsolo volunteer
You're mechalel shabbos every week by your own admission like most posters here.
Only you do it in the guise of being Jewish they at least admit to being non frum. You are just as bad nay much worse. Which shulchan oruch do you keep which gives you a 'heter' to be mechalel shabbos where no loss of life yes life not limb will happen.
I know this is prevalent in all hatsolo corps all mechalel shabbos like the posters here.
The correct thing to do is to take goyim for the job. Its not only to light a fire one uses a shabbos goy. Thats forgotten today. I know a very frum Jewish doctor who goes without a hat but who has a special nurse to drive him around on shabbos and carry his case for him.
There is absolutely no excuse not to use a goyish ambulance driver even though shmarya will say as usual its not chilul shabbos to drive on shabbos there isnt much left what chilul shabbos is.
As with everything the so called ultra orthodox are way out of touch with simple halachot.
I am not here to give the reasons for this psak which of course all of you will dispute. I am just giving what the shulchan oruch says. take it or leave it like the ultra orthodox

[Shmarya]

Chaim,

You wouldn't be able to pasken yourself out of a paper bag, let alone teach others what to do.

Is it better to have a non-Jewish driver?

Yes, halakhicly it is – when it is feasible to do so.

But Hatzaloh often has dozens of EMTs wearing beepers as they daven in shul on Shabbos.

They aren't sitting in a dispatch center waiting for calls.

If a call comes in, the closest EMTs answer.

This can mean running around the corner or driving several miles.

It is simply not feasible to have a dozen or three volunteer EMTs sitting in a dispatch center every Shabbat, away from their families, waiting for calls.

If you think these EMTs should make the sacrifice to do this, you can see a teshuva from Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who allowed doctors to drive home from hospitals or house calls on Shabbos.

The rationale he used was simple: if doctors were not allowed to drive to return from emergency calls on Shabbat, they will be less likely to answer emergency calls on Shabbat and they will be more likely to minimize the illnesses they do hear about, and that will lead to people who need immediate care not getting it, and that will lead to unnecessary deaths.

Is it therefore preferable for such a doctor to have a non-Jewish driver with him for the 25 hours of Shabbat?

Not really.

Why?

Because that is an extreme financial burden and it is unrealistic to expect a doctor to do this.

So what will happen if such non-Jewish 25 hour drivers become necessary or preferable is that many doctors will stop taking Shabbat emergency calls altogether, and that will lead to unnecessary deaths.

The most important thing is to save lives.

That is the moral position and it is also the halakhic position.

If you were not an ignoramus, it would be your position, too.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Hatzolah Volunteer | August 03, 2010 at 11:39 PM++

Thank you for your posting, and for all you do.

[chaim1]

So you agree i am right but it is not feasible to keep the halacha.
You are talking on the right blog. They do away with the whole shulchan oruch for the same reason.
What do you mean its not feasible? it cost money to have a goyish driver in every shul?
As usual when it comes to money all the shulchan oruch is hefker.
there is money for much less important things shmarya can give you a whole list.
and they make thousands of dollars.
Say the truth. you have been mechalel shabbos so often that you see nothing wrong any more.

But just remember, for chilul shabbos its death by stoning the worst and most cruel death.
eating treif is malkus
having a protestant shiksa is not punished by beth din.

And you havent answered the question where there is only loss of limb (most cases not even that) where is your heter.

ok answer this what percentage of calls you are mechalel shabbos for are life not limb threatening?
i can tell you hardly any at all if any.

And youre wrong. keeping shabbos is the main thing not the saving lives the only reason you are allowed to save lives is so he shall keep many shabbosos.
better you be mechalel one shabbos that he should keep many
i know what the mishne berura says on this.

if you would start off at the beginning that chilul shabbos is an aveira then go to save lives is a mitsva you will find that both can be done.
Of course you may not be necessary if you have goyim doing the job. and the whole feel of having outdone god will be lost.
at least the posters here dont feel that.

[chaim1]

i didnt look at who signed the previous letter i didnt know it was you shmarya
ignoramus pompous call me what you like i dont care and its your blog it gives you the right and that is usually the only way you can argue a valid point by insults.
well i wont trade them with you.
but you havent answered me, as usual you never do if that doesnt mean you are ignorant i dont what is.
do you consider driving on shabbos chillul shabbos.RBS and all the others and there is plenty, more important than money for keeping shabbos.
i suppose your posters will come up with a novel idea that each volunteer should have a protestant shiksa to drive for him
you never answered me there what you thought of a jew having a protestant shiksa and being ignorant you wont again.
or you will delete this post

[Shmarya]

Chaim,

You are a shoteh.

Halakha takes into account the feasibility of an action, its cost, etc.

When we are dealing with saving lives, we absolutely must take into account what a pesak din will do to discourage saving life.

The fact that I cited Rabbi Moshe Feinstein and you completely ignored that tells me you are either an ignoramus or malicious – or, more likely, both.

And youre wrong. keeping shabbos is the main thing not the saving lives

Shoteh.

And you havent answered the question where there is only loss of limb (most cases not even that) where is your heter.

Moron.

The decision on whether an injury or illness is life threatening is based on current medical knowledge applied by skilled medical professionals.

All exceptions to this rule go to humra, meaning we break Shabbos, transport the person to a hospital, etc., because we always move to save a life first.

So when halakha says a tooth infection that caused facial swelling is life threatening, we break Shabbos to treat that infection, even if doctors say that treatment can wait until Shabbos is over.

But, if a doctor considers something to be life threatening but a rabbi does not (or the Shulkhan Arukh does not) we violate Shabbos to treat the illness.

This is the halakha.

At any rate, when a person is injured or ill, unless it is absolutely certain the injury/illness is not life threatening if left untreated for hours, the person must be treated as if he is in a life threatening situation. He must be transported to a hospital or to medical care, etc. And certainly Hatzaloh must respond to his call.

The only real issue is what should Hatzaloh do if the illness/injury is not life threatening (a broken toe, for example) but the victim insists on going to the hospital anyway.

In a case like that, some poskim would rule that Hatzaloh has to transport the victim.

One reason for this is we put great importance on what a victim thinks is happening, on what he feels.

Another reason is that we do want other people who truly are in mortal danger to think they should not call Hatzaloh or should not go to the hospital.

But the point is, Hatzaloh can't decide what should be done with a particular patient until they have arrived and started evaluation and treatment.

And that is why they have to respond to calls.

Now go learn.

[chaim1]

My post seems to have disappeared
You ramble on as usual about a thing we are both agreed upon. If there is any question of possible loss of life.
All you can answer to my points are shote (twice) moron.
Well if that is no sign of ignorance and you can’t do better what is.
So my questions to you again in, short a yes or no would suffice.
1 What is your opinion of a protestant shiksa.
2 Is driving on shabbos chillul shabbos.
3 Is money or chillul shabbos more important.
4 is money for RBS and his ilk and there seems plenty of it more important than chillul shabbos.
5 The truth is like I implied that these hatsolo corps are more interested in outdoing god than saving lives they get a ‘kick’ out of profaning the shabbos. It gives them a kind of superiority complex they have like touched wet paint without getting their hands coloured.

[David]

Chaim, I know you are "religious" but would you kindly refrain from referring to non-Jewish females as "shiksas"?

[Shmarya]

My post seems to have disappeared

No it has not disappeared.

You ramble on as usual about a thing we are both agreed upon. If there is any question of possible loss of life.

No, Chaim, we do not agree.

You do not understand what I wrote.

Possible loss of life exists in pretty much every call Hatzaloh gets and remains in force until after Hatzaloh has arrived on scene and has begun to asses and treat the patient.

That means, Chaim, that Hatzaloh must answer these call on Shabbos.

All you can answer to my points are shote (twice) moron.

Stop acting like a shoteh and moron and I'll do my my best to stop calling you one.

[chaim1]

no need to stop calling me names i dont mind just remember is was a shulchan oruch i was quoting.
I would rather you answer my simple questions which so far you have failed to do.
I am not religious in the sense you think. but i cant watch a poster here bragging about his protestant wife without rabbi shmarya batting an eyelid.
at least tell him to convert her.

[Shmarya]

no need to stop calling me names i dont mind just remember is was a shulchan oruch i was quoting.

I is a shulkhan arukh you do not even begin to understand.

I would rather you answer my simple questions which so far you have failed to do.

I've answered them, Chaim. But you do not understand the answers.

I am not religious in the sense you think. but i cant watch a poster here bragging about his protestant wife without rabbi shmarya batting an eyelid.
at least tell him to convert her.

Lets see.

You insult and berate people who you see as 'off the derech.'

All that does is hurt those people and push them further 'away.'

And you want me to emulate that?

[chaim1]

1 What is your opinion of a protestant shiksa.
2 Is driving on shabbos chillul shabbos.
3 Is money or chillul shabbos more important.

I've answered them, Chaim. But you do not understand the answers.

i certainly dont and cant find anything remotely connected to them in your post.
i suppose that calls for another superlative strangely absent in your last post.

I is a shulkhan arukh you do not even begin to understand.
i must agree with you there. all the rabbis seem not to keep it.
i wonder if someone could kindly explain it to me.

i wonder how much further you can push him away. he admits to eating treifa, he is mechalel shabbos his children are not jewish he is proud of his protestant wife.
his language is 'salty'. do we really want such jews.

its the chabad still left in you who want everyone.

[Shmarya]

1 What is your opinion of a protestant shiksa.
2 Is driving on shabbos chillul shabbos.
3 Is money or chillul shabbos more important.

1. I don't know her personally so I have no opinion of her.

2. It depends on the circumstances. It also depends on what you're driving.

3. Halakha does not work that way. Halakha understands doctors will not spend $20,000 or more per year to have a non-Jewish driver at their disposal every Shabbos and Yom Tov.

Halakha also understands that no impediment should be put in the way of saving life.

i wonder if someone could kindly explain it to me.

I have, Chaim, and others have tried. But you do not seem to have the ability to understand what we're saying.

do we really want such jews.

That question, Chaim, can be asked about you, as well.

[chaim1]

3. Halakha does not work that way. Halakha understands doctors will not spend $20,000 or more per year to have a non-Jewish driver at their disposal every Shabbos and Yom Tov.

no i repeatedly mentioned that a collection ought to be made just like for RBS and others. do you read what i write?

i said that chillul shabbos is more important than saving lives and the only reason its allowed is better you desecrate one that he should keep many.

now you just said moron or shote.

is that called explaining or trying to explain?

there are many things where collections are made. i suppose the order something like this
someone starving
pidyon shvuim although an american cell with all mod cons and being able to keep the whole torah is also counted i wonder.
mikva for women where a sea or well is not present.
schools for boys not girls.
a synagogue.

well in my opinion money necessary not to be mechalel shabbos comes way up the list.

i know youve never heard this before from any rabbi and i am dissilusioned with the lot of them for many more reasons. they all seem to learn shulchan oruch differently to me. and all have the wrong priorities.
and keep on picking and choosing what we ought to keep

[william e emba]

There is absolutely no excuse not to use a goyish ambulance driver even though shmarya will say as usual its not chilul shabbos to drive on shabbos there isnt much left what chilul shabbos is.

As I've been told, they used to in fact do things this way in Brooklyn, until they had problems with goyim doing fatally inferior jobs.

[Shmarya]

i repeatedly mentioned that a collection ought to be made just like for RBS and others.

So in the NYC area, at minimum, perhaps 50 doctors and 100 or 200 Hatzaloh EMTs would each need to have $20,000 raised for them.

That adds up to a minimum of $5 million per year on top of the money needed to pay for ambulances, medical equipment, etc.

It won't happen. What will happen if people listened to you is that far fewer doctors and EMTs would be responding to Shabbos emergencies, and people will unnecessarily die.

And, as I've mentioned several times already, halakha takes this into account.

there are many things where collections are made. i suppose the order something like this
someone starving
pidyon shvuim although an american cell with all mod cons and being able to keep the whole torah is also counted i wonder.
mikva for women where a sea or well is not present.
schools for boys not girls.
a synagogue.

well in my opinion money necessary not to be mechalel shabbos comes way up the list.

Your first item, "someone starving," is a pekuakh nefesh situation.

Notice that you place it above keeping Shabbos.

Do you know that during WW2, NYC haredi and MO rabbis not only allowed the Vaad Hatzoloh to collect money on Shabbos in their synagogues, the also paskened that people should go home, write a check, and then carry it back to shul – all on Shabbos in areas without eruvs.

They did this even though banks were closed Saturday and Sunday and the checks would not be cashed until Monday.

Why?

Because they understood human nature well enough to know that many people would promise to give but would forget or get busy and would not give the money until much later, if at all.

And they also understood the only time the VH could reach masses of Jews easily was on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

In your mind, what the rabbis should have done is mandate that the VH spend time and money they did not have to collect pledges after Shabbat (and perhaps that the VH should have gone door to door to after Shabbat to make their appeals).

After all, Shabbos is very important and we should spend lots of money to prevent violating it.

Your approach would have cost lives, just as your approach now would cost lives.

And that is what you do not understand.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chaim1, you know nothing about Volunteer First-Responder Squads like Hatzolah, nor about emergency medical care at any level.

Hatzolah is always looking for new members, as does any volunteer First-Responder Squad. There are never enough members; to fill every shift is always a challenge for the Squad. Members are volunteers- they are not paid. If someone is willing to work as an EMT/First Aider for pay, he or she would join the city's paid EMS. Hatzolah could not possibly pay at the same rate.

Hatzolah already has the blessing of every recognized rabbinical/halachic authority in every religious community they serve. Do you think you know more than those rabbis do?

[chaim1]

first of all i suppose i have to say yes i do. oh i know the response you will give me, dont bother i hear it all the time.

but see the end of this post.
they know the truth that i am right.

Second of all i have no respect for all these rabbis you mention for many reasons. most just feed us treifos because they earn more on them.
dont keep the shulchan oruch or very little of it. and pick and choose. see my rantings on other blogs.

The main thing is this. has any decent rabbi come here on a blog and explained anything of why they dont keep the shulchan oruch.
shmarya was basically saying in a previous post that it cost too much to keep.
well i dont buy that.
they have similar excuses for everything.

that means in effect that according to the shulcan oruch they agree i am right but they dont want to keep it.

i dont know who the shulchan oruch was really made for. i seem to be the only one keeping it.
no youre not alone in not keeping it

[chaim1]

they are in it for the women not to save lives.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yes Chaim, Hatzolah guys score big with the babes (ROTFLMAO), and that's why they join.

If, G-d forbid, you need emergency medical help on Shabbos, please DO NOT call Hatzolah, since they are obviously apikorsim who violate Shabbos, and anyway are only doing it to score with women.

Instead, call 911, and insist that the dispatcher send a crew of nonJews. After all, some EMT's with NYC EMS are Jewish, and some are orthodox.

[jewishwhistleblower]

chaim1,

I do not know what religion you practice but it is not Judaism.

>keeping shabbos is the main thing not
>the saving lives the only reason you
>are allowed to save lives is so he
>shall keep many shabbosos.

You clearly are extremely ignorant on mhalacha. Whatever education you've had, please seek a refund.

>they are in it for the women not to
>save lives.

So the ignorant defender of Judaism now demonstrates his ignorance of shmirat halashon by violating same with a bold statement constituting mozi shem rah.

Moron.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>If, G-d forbid, you need emergency
>medical help on Shabbos, please DO
>NOT call Hatzolah, ...
>Instead, call 911,

Better yet since your non-Judaism religion demands it don't call for help at all or go to your rav instead of the emergency room.

Chaim1 you must really impress the women with your lack of learning and violations of shmirat halashon. You are a perfect beshert for the evil woman in Isarel who let her neighbors die rather than phone the police on Shabbos.

Moron.

[effie]

Shmarya: Thank you for pointing out even more reasons why it is necessary to call the police immediately.

[Radical Feminist]

How does someone who is not a trained doctor determine if someones life is in danger? A stub toe is not life threatening? Says who?
If the patient is an elderly person who is not ambulatory and has an injury that causes a hematoma and the hematoma dislodges to form a blood clot that travels to the lungs that would cause a pulmonary embolism or how about a clot to the heart causing an Myocardial infarction? In plainer words, I am not frum but I do understand that only a qualified medical person can determine if someones case is truly life threatening.

[WoolSilkCotton]

RF, good point.

I am a physician, and I was an EMT for a volunteer emergency first aid squad for many years.

It is a fact that a lot of 911 calls, as well as trips to the ER, end up not really being life threatening emergencies when the diagnosis is ultimately reached.

Nevertheless, each call needs to be taken with the utmost seriousness. Most people who call 911 are fearful that something is a serious threat to life or limb. Most people do not take it lightly to make a call to 911. If it's serious enough to warrant a 911 call, it's serious enough for EMS to dispatch an emergency crew, 24/7. Hatzolah treats their calls the same way.

Sometimes, even if the description of the problem doesn't sound life-threatening, it turns out to be! Severe back pain, which you might think can be treated with Tylenol until after Shabbos, can be a ruptured aortic aneurysm.

A stubbed toe could possibly mean something more serious, given the context that it caused someone to have enough mental distress to call 911. I realize that for someone who has never worked in the medical field, and has never experienced a personal medical emergency, this concept is hard to grasp.

Our medical system, including EMS/First Responders, always go by the credo of 'trust the patient's word'. If it's important enough to have warranted a 911 call, it's important enough for an ambulance to come.

I am sure that any legitimate rabbinical authority, when this is presented for a ruling, would agree.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Stop it right now Radical Feminist. Logic and common sense only confuse chaim1 who also can't use toilet paper because its not discussed in the shulchan oruch. He also can't use his primary hand to wipe himself with his cleaning rock.

After using the restroom, a right handed person should not use his right hand to clean himself. (Shulchan Aruch Siman 3:10)

[Mr. Apikoros]

Chaim1 writes:

"I am not religious in the sense you think. but i cant watch a poster here bragging about his protestant wife without rabbi shmarya batting an eyelid..."

It's none of your goddamned fucking business, Chaim1, what religion (and ethnicity) my wife is. Nor is it any of Shmarya's, nor of Rav. Shafran's, nor of Rav. Ginsburgh's.

Capice?

[jewishwhistleblower]

Chaim1: "i dont know who the shulchan oruch was really made for. i seem to be the only one keeping it."

The Maharal writes in Netivoth Olam:
“To decide halakhic questions from the codes without knowing the source of the ruling was not the intent of these authors. Had they known that their works would lead to the abandonment of Talmud, they would not have written them. It is better for one to decide on the basis of the Talmud even though he might err, for a scholar must depend solely on his understanding. As such, he is beloved of God, and preferable to the one who rules from a code but does not know the reason for the ruling; such a one walks like a blind person."

Chaim1 = blind person who cannot use toilet paper to wipe himself

[Mr. Apikoros]

Does Hatzollah respond to mental health emergencies, WSC?

It's obvious that Chaim1 is in the midst of one. Dispatch a truck equipped with Haldol. Don't wait for Shabbot!

[Radical Feminist]

Just lost a patient after a fall this Shabbat, Jewish elderly woman with minimal ambulatory, no broken bones, initial exam unremarkable,had a pulmonary embolism not detected died the following day right before she was about to discharged. this is an actual case.

[effie]

So, if it were chaim or a child in his family that was being stabbed repeatedly, would he think it was okay for no one to call the police?

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Radical Feminist | August 04, 2010 at 12:42 PM++

If that patient were home, she would have called 911 and complained of pain in her lower leg (typical presentation of DVT).

Chaim would have refused to call 911, or refused to respond if she asked him to, because it was Shabbos and he wouldn't think a pain in the lower leg was anything serious.

++Mr. Apikoros | August 04, 2010 at 12:11 PM++

Chaim's 9:45 posting is quite disturbing. I do hope he seeks the guidance of a competent Rav who could provide counseling, in addition to a physician psychiatrist for medicinal treatment, since a break with reality has occurred, even by religious standards.

[chaim1]

to all you radical lot.
You always end your posts with your heads in the cess pit. Not surprising since you all came out of the sluice gates and are just waiting to go back in.
Not one of you ignorant fools have understood a word i was talking about. No surprise judging where you come from and are continuously returning.
You all one track minders, each with his own protestant shiksa to keep him in check, all mechalel shabbos weekly on here, its not surprising where your little minds take you.
No use replying, 'vda ma stoshiv' doesnt apply to you rabble.

shmarya with his chabad background thinks you are better off here. at least you are reminded daily you are jewish. and at least the viewers and other posters can see what happens when goes off the derech.
one ends up with his head in the cess pool reeking away on here.

[Radical Feminist]

WSF- the patient had a fall in her home and her health care provider called. She had Alzheimers disease and did not come to the dooor when the care taker came to visit and bring her food. An ambulance came. She was to be released to her care giver the following day.

[Abracadabra]

chaim1 -

WHATEVER YOU DO - DO NOT call Hatzalah on Shabbos if you need medical help - call 911 instead!

Following your directive in this regard is essential for the spiritual well-being of frumkeit, the oiylam, the oiylamoiys, Shem Hashem, and the kayamus shel Toiyreh.

And, when you call 911 on Shabbos and not Hatzalah, you'll die waiting for the 911 EMTs. But Boruch Hashem you wont have caused the frum Hatzalah volunteers to chas v'shalom have even a doubt about if it's mutar to be mechalel Shabbos.

And when you get up to Shomayim after you've died waiting for 911, you can tell Hashem "But I was following the Shulchan Oruch".

To which Hashem will reply "Looser!"

But - remember - no calls to Hatzalah on Shabbos!

(And a Darwin award is waiting for you...)

[Abracadabra]

Shmarya - August 04, 2010 at 12:38 AM

Yes.

It's way too often...

[WoolSilkCotton]

RF, that is a tragic story. All too common for elderly patients suffering dementia. Probably developed a DVT while laying in the hospital bed.

Abracadabra, as you point out, the main reason Hatzolah was formed was because of the unacceptably long waiting time for a NYC ambulance to arrive in Brooklyn when you dial 911.

Your advice to Chaim is excellent, however, some members of NYC's Emergency Medical Services are Jews, and some are orthodox Jews. I don't know if they take duty on Shabbos. Since there is the possibility of a Jew showing up with the ambulance crew, Chaim should not call 911 either, since a Jew may end up violating Shabbos by driving the ambulance to Chaim's house.

[Hatzolah Volunteer]

1st of all I will not respond to any of chaim1's comments as I do not believe he's really an orthodox Jew, I think he's just trying to be ironic...

I will, however, respond to Shmarya's response to him.

Shmarya said: Is it better to have a non-Jewish driver?

Yes, halakhicly it is – when it is feasible to do so.

Shmarya's comment is not accurate. It is prohibited to use a non-Jew to respond to medical emergencies. All response must be done by a Jew (see Shulchan Aruch).

There are a few reasons for this, one of the reasons is that if you allow a non-Jew to drive you may feel that responding to medical emergencies is not important enough to break Shabbos, and next time when there's no non-Jew, you won't respond.

Even the Hatzolahs who use "Shabbos Goyim" only use them to return from the call. Even though they may ride along in the ambulance while responding to the call, they are not allowed to drive until the call is over.

The only time that a non-Jew might be asked to drive would be when we have examined the patient and it is absolutely certain that the patient is not in any danger at all (such as the stubbed toe, and other nonsense EMS unfortunately deals with).

What it would seem Shmarya is confusing is the case of a doctor going to the hospital for his shift, not responding to a specific emergency, when it is definitely preferable (and perhaps required) to use a Goy.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya's comment is not accurate. It is prohibited to use a non-Jew to respond to medical emergencies. All response must be done by a Jew (see Shulchan Aruch).

I don't doubt your statement is accurate.

But I do recall a discussion – I think in Igros Moshe but I'm not sure – about having a non-Jewish driver both ways, although I could be wrong.

Also, why, then, do people commonly use non-Jews to get to the hospital to give birth on Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Clearly, giving birth without proper medical attention is an emergency situation that can lead to the death of the mother and/or the death of or severe permanent injury to the baby.

Yet many poskim tell people to call a (non-Jewish) cab, to have the fare placed in an envelope before Shabbos just in case you do have to call for a cab, and even that calling the cab should be done by a non-Jewish person, if possible.

Why?

[william e emba]

chaim1 wrote:

Not one of you have understood a word i was talking about.

That's because you didn't make any sense. Duh.

[Hatzolah Volunteer]

Shmarya asked:

Also, why, then, do people commonly use non-Jews to get to the hospital to give birth on Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Because natural labor has been accepted to be a non-emergency situation, in which even during the week one would generally not call an ambulance, and would either drive themselves or call a taxi. Therefore, there is no reason to have a Jew violate the Shabbos. (You can dispute the accuracy of this perception, if you like, but this is the accepted perception.)

If there is a time issue, it is preferable that a Jew who is available does drive her, and not to wait for a taxi.

However, if there is any indication that the labor is becoming an emergency (the general rule is a situation in which one might call an ambulance during the week) of course one should immediately call Hatzolah.

[Shmarya]

Because natural labor has been accepted to be a non-emergency situation

The reason it is usually a non-emergency situation is because of modern medical care – which cannot be given by untrained, un-equipped lay people.

Remove modern medical care and modern medical equipment and the rate of infant mortality and maternal mortality would dramatically rise.

Therefore, there should be no question that getting a woman in labor to the hospital immediately is pekuakh nefesh.

So – why is there?

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Hatzolah Volunteer | August 05, 2010 at 02:07 PM++

That is an interesting point. In my 20 years of working on a volunteer rescue squad, we never had a call to take a woman in labor to the hospital. Our squad averaged over 700 calls per year.

In my 26 years of working in a hospital, most women in labor arrive at the hospital by car, being driven by family or friend. The only exceptions are women with problems such as bleeding, very premature labor, or known to have complications during pregnancy.

[william e emba]

The other difference between childbirth and typical medical emergencies is that one usually expects the childbirth, but not the emergencies. Thus, one can and should prepare ahead of Shabbos, perhaps even arranging a ride, for most of the expectant mother's trip, but certainly not for your typical emergency which comes quite unexpectedly.

[WoolSilkCotton]

A first-pregnancy labor in an otherwise healthy woman with normal full-term pregnancy takes 10-12 hours, from onset of contractions until delivery.

Subsequent pregnancies and labors for the same patient are faster, but always at least 1-2 hours.

As Mr. Emba points out, women nearing term always keep in mind the possibility of labor at any time, and usually have a plan for transportation 24/7.