Letter from Tel Aviv: Let The Haredim Walk

Once every few rides I am asked to move my seat for an ultra-Orthodox woman (lest she be forced to sit beside a man ) or an ultra-Orthodox man (since my insistence on sitting in a window seat could, heaven forfend, force him to sit next to me, someone who appears to be in a chronic state of ritual impurity ).

Let the Haredim walk
Those who have a problem with men and women traveling together are the Haredim, and they are the ones who are kindly requested to run after the light rail.
By Neri Livneh • Ha'aretz

At least once a week I take a shared taxi from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Arrayed at the departure point next to Tel Aviv's central bus station are generally a wide range of passengers, including secular and religious Jews, Arabs and foreign workers. Once inside the vehicle, they take their places on a first-come, first-seated basis.

At the departure point in Jerusalem, off Jaffa Street, by contrast, arguments regularly break out over seating arrangements. In Jerusalem, seating isn't determined by the order in which passengers get on, but by their sex.

Once every few rides I am asked to move my seat for an ultra-Orthodox woman (lest she be forced to sit beside a man ) or an ultra-Orthodox man (since my insistence on sitting in a window seat could, heaven forfend, force him to sit next to me, someone who appears to be in a chronic state of ritual impurity ).

Why do the same seating arrangements that seem so obvious to the Haredim getting on in Tel Aviv provoke such prolonged debates when they board in Jerusalem? The riddle has two correct answers. First, natural selection reigns in Jerusalem, and the secular simply defer to the Haredim and their shows of strength. Second, in Jerusalem, nothing is sacred.

There are secular travelers who defer to the religious. I do not. More than once the driver has tried to intercede to persuade me to change seats, but to no avail. If, like doctors, drivers of shared taxis kept files, I would be the one they would probably label as an "anxious/difficult" passenger, rather than the ultra-Orthodox men and women trying to impose their sex discrimination on public transit vehicles.

The fact is that my refusal to yield has never caused a Haredi traveler to get out of the taxi. There is always another passenger, someone more soft-hearted than me, who backs down. But only in Jerusalem. In the den of sin known as Tel Aviv, they don't dare overstep their bounds.

We may call this Jerusalem-based variety of capitulation by other names - pluralism or tolerance, perhaps - but in the end, it is simply surrender to the dictates of a specific and extreme interpretation of Judaism, one that distorts the faith into one that discriminates against women.

Because of this acquiescence in Jerusalem - as well as in Safed, Beit Shemesh, Tiberias and other cities undergoing rapid Haredization - the CEO of the firm set to operate the Jerusalem light rail has raised the possibility of designating separate train cars for men and women, for financial reasons. In his defense, he did say that if people want it, they'll use it and if they don't want it, they won't.

But the Haredim will, of course, want to, and what is suggested as an option will quickly become an obligation, as with sex segregation on Egged's "mehadrin" bus lines. Excessive deference to the sensitivities of the ultra-Orthodox will quickly lead to public funds being used toward discrimination against women.

On this matter, we may take a page from Golda Meir. At a Knesset hearing on barring women from leaving their homes after 11 P.M., in an ostensible attempt to protect them, Meir said that as far as she knew, it was the men who were behaving violently, and therefore they were the ones who were kindly requested to stay home after dark.

Those who have a problem with men and women traveling together are the Haredim, and they are the ones who are kindly requested to run after the light rail.

Comments

[harold]

Yes, this is a big problem. Everyone should be equal, what is this nonsense that certain seats be set aside for the handicapped. Also, years ago one was told to give up a seat for a woman or for the elderly. Don't they know that it is first come first serve? It’s a dog eat dog world out there, everyone for themselves. What nonsense this concept of accommodating people. Survival of the fittest I say - the law of nature and of the beast.

[soso]

Not the same thing, dear harold...

[harold]

Not the same thing, dear harold...

Well, yes and no. Where I work there are 3 bathrooms right next to each other, all are identical. For years everyone used whatever was available. One day two of them had signs of "Men" on them and one had "Ladies". A memo went out saying that the protocol is that men use the ones labeled Men and women use the one labeled Ladies - unless you gender choice is taken then you may the other. I don't know what precipitated this, maybe the lack of putting down the seat, but whatever, I had no problem and do indeed make sure that if I use the Ladies bathroom I will make sure that I put the seat down, even though I was not told but out of courtesy.

Same thing, If I would come to a bus stop and someone declares one line should be for women, one for men and one for both and there will be busses arriving within close proximity time wise to meet all the passengers need - I would have no problems. It I had to wait another half an hour for my gender correct bus to arrive - then I would have a problem.

Accommodation is fine to a point. The people requesting the accommodation should also be reasonable as well. This is the way a civilized society should work. You must put yourself in the shoes of the people requesting/requiring the accommodation and then see if it is reasonable. It should not be done through your eyes only.

[jancsibacsi]

the retards are it again i can only describe them as mentally disturbed loosers

[Garnel Ironheart]

A few years ago I got on one of the minivan shuttles in Yerushalayim. I was the last aboard and the only remaining seat was next to a woman. Without a word she looked around, and quietly switched seats with another man. No fuss, and everyone got to their destination in peace.
Is the writer being difficult because moving would seriously harm her or just to say "You can't tell me what to do!"?

[effie]

Ironheart: Why do you and your ilk have the need to be difficult and to try to tell others what to do is the question.

And would someone please put a ball gag in the mouth of the harold idiot?

[harold]

Ironheart: Why do you and your ilk have the need to be difficult and to try to tell others what to do is the question

Exactly that was my first point.

Everyman for themselves!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Dionne Warwick:

If you see me walking down the street
And I start to cry 'cause I can't get a seat
Drive on by, drive on by

Make believe
that you don't see the tears
Just let me grieve
'cause if I must sit near a woman
I break down and cry
And drive on by (don't stop)
And drive on by (don't stop)
And drive on by

I just can't get over missing the bus
So if I seem farklempt and mussed
Drive on by, drive on by

Foolish chumrot
Is all that I have left
So let me ruminate
The tears and the sadness you gave me-
You wouldn't move your seat
Drive on by
and drive on by
and drive by (don't stop)

Drive on by, drive on by
Foolish chumra
Is all that I have left
So let me hoof it
The tears and the sadness you gave me
When you said go f--- it
Drive on by (don't stop)
and drive on by (don't stop)
and drive by (don't stop)

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Interesting article.

[Mr. Apikoros]

No, Harold, it's not the same thing as the mens' room and the ladies' room, and you know it.

It's more like "white" and "colored" restaurants, or for that matter, buses and trains in segregationist times down South, and you know that too.

Lots of white southerners, probably most of them, were "offended" by the prospect of sitting next to a NEGRO. Tough. Be offended.

[harold]

It's more like "white" and "colored" restaurants, or for that matter, buses and trains in segregationist times down South, and you know that too

Not true, they don't want to sit next to their OWN of different sexes. You would be right if a haredi woman would sit next to a haredi man but not to a secular or non-jewish man.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Well, if these frumbags want to sit in segregated cars, they can do so. But if they try to force me to sit in a sex-segregated car, they'll have a helluva fight on their hands.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

@ Mr. Apikoros

Come on, you would have a gang bang in a
reekin' n' stinkin' all male (review) car on a sweltering pre-shabos day. To make sure that that you fit do not shit, shower or shave 2-3 days before departure.

[justayid]

"Well, if these frumbags want to sit in segregated cars, they can do so. But if they try to force me to sit in a sex-segregated car, they'll have a helluva fight on their hands."

you might want to stay away from Tokyo, then.

[harold]

you might want to stay away from Tokyo, then

Good point. I had no idea! Anyway from Wikipedia:

Women-only passenger cars (女性専用車両, josei sen'yō sharyō?) are railway or subway cars intended for women only. They are offered on some Japanese train lines. Egypt, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, Belarus[1], the Philippines and Dubai[2], also offer women-only train cars, while passengers in some other countries have demanded their introduction. Such cars are slated to be introduced in Seoul, South Korea in 2008[3]. In Japan, the special cars were introduced to combat lewd conduct, particularly groping (chikan). An exemption is made for men with disabilities, who may ride any passenger car.[4] First offered in 2001, all commuter rail and subway companies in Tokyo and Osaka, Japan's two biggest cities, run women-only cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car

An exemption is made for men with disabilities, who may ride any passenger car

Lucky them, they can do all the groping they want :)

[Maskil]

...since my insistence on sitting in a window seat could, heaven forfend, force him to sit next to me, someone who appears to be in a chronic state of ritual impurity...

Oh the irony. Wasn't there a guy around the time of the Mishnah who was like: "Teach the ignorant instead of having contempt for their ignorance" - and the Sanhedrin was like "Oh, I can't let that guys kid learn in yeshiva with my kid because he's ignorant." And it was just a catch 22, and when that guy tried to inspire the ignorant and teach them on their own level he was considered an "agitator" and eventually it was requested that the Romans authorize or perform his execution? It really rings a bell.

This woman may be in a perpetual state of ritual impurity, but this is not what bothers the Haredi. If he is a true and sincere man he may be bothered by the fact that she is in a constant state of spritual impurity - and the ignorance of her statement testifies to this. But the Haredim do not want to educate her, because they would not want someone of such spiritual impurity enrolled in a Torah institution - catch 22 all over again, huh? And if he's just a regular guy he doesn't want to sit next to her because a) His wife isn't as hot as she is, and this causes him great distress or b) he is not married and he'd really like to hook up with her but he's worried about what that might do to his reputation and that of his family so he wants to avoid the opportunity to cave in to such great temptation.

Man people, stop complaining about each other all the time and start trying to understand one another. That would be a really nice start towards true reconciliation.

[sifter]

It's a bus, not a shul. There is no need for this. What's next? seperate grocery stores? seperate emergency rooms?

[effie]

harold: The only point you made, and make repeatedly, is that you are an imbecile.

[harold]

harold: The only point you made, and make repeatedly, is that you are an imbecile.

Nu, what can I do. G-d made me that way, and the FailedMessiahnites must tolerate my presence!

On the other side of the coin, I must tolerate posts from people who I find objectionable. Ah variety, the spice of life!

[Jeff]

And would someone please put a ball gag in the mouth of the harold idiot?

Effie, I keep asking and asking. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why he is still permitted here. In fact, recently, when I brought up the subject of banning him, several of the regulars piped up and asked for him to be allowed to remain. I don't begin to understand it.

On the other side of the coin, I must tolerate posts from people who I find objectionable.

Yeah, that'd be pretty much everyone.

Re: men's and ladies' rooms vs. public transportation - even you cannot possibly be that stupid.

[Jeff]

Is the writer being difficult because moving would seriously harm her or just to say "You can't tell me what to do!"?

Garnel, as I told you a few months ago - sometimes you have a point, and sometimes you're just retarded. You said something the other day - I can't remember now what it was - that struck me as being eminently sensible. Today, unfortunately, you're on the other side of the fence.

There doesn't seem to be any way to predict, on any given day, which way you'll blow.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Harold and the Haredim (an old '50s band?) should relocate to a Greek Island where only men are allowed.
Mikva frolics await, Harold!

Why isn't this a problem in the NYC subway and bus system? Obviously this is not a Jewish law, tradition, custom, or practice. It's just more fanatical bullsh!t, and the public is expected to go along, or fear getting physically assaulted.

[Jeff]

WSC, I emailed you the other day.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Speaking of Tokyo, the Hasidim didn't bomb Pearl Harbor, did they?

[Charadie]

I am charadie and chasiddish. i have no problem sitting near a lady because of sex issues. The only problem i have is if a women will make up a story that i touched her, i heard a few stories which happened in the past, i wouldnt wanna risk it, so on the plane when i must be seated i make a fuss that i dont wanna sit near a women. They can think i'm crazy, its just too bad, better safe then sorry. It's too bad on everone else too, i can do it in the name of religion.

[justayid]

"Speaking of Tokyo, the Hasidim didn't bomb Pearl Harbor, did they?"

No. But did they CONDEMN the bombing?

[Mr. Apikoros]

Actually, it was the Germans who bombed Pearl Harbor. Just ask Bluto Blutarsky.

[David]

t's just more fanatical bullsh!t, and the public is expected to go along, or fear getting physically assaulted.

I once got on a Charedi bus in Jerusalem and you should have seen the looks I got, presumably because I was wearing a BLUE SHIRT (and jeans)... I got used to it though, I was staying in Betar Illit for a while. I must say I find this whole Mehadrin bus thing quite ridiculous. I know for a FACT, that in a certain other location in the world where I personally organised a hired bus to pick up a bunch of Lubavitchers that they specifically did not request segregated seating and were happy for people to self-organise (I actually asked them if segregation was required so approrpriate signage and notification could be made). Husbands sat with wives, and singles sat with the same sex but seating was randomly chosen. There was no division, front to rear, for example.

[SideComment]

Such a well-written post!

Particularly outstanding because you express my blood pressure without the attendant imprecations that would fly out of my mouth at even the suggestion that I give up my seat to anyone who's not old or infirm or a young mother. We all paid the same fare, didn't we?

Thank you, great post.