How The Chabad Street Understands Mesira

When can a Jew "inform" on another Jew by calling the health department, fire inspectors or police? According to Chabad, almost never.

From the Crown Heights blog Shomrim Members:

Calling 311 And Its Halachic Ties

It is truly amazing how the Hershkop mosserim are writing about messira and 311 .
Lets all not forget .
WHO CALLED 311 ON WHO?
HERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THEY MOSSRED ON BY CALLING 311  .
FISHERS JOB SITE, SKOBLOS JOB SITE, OKONOVS MOTHER, MY BUILDINGS , PRAGERS HOUSE, STERNS JOB SITES, SPRTIZER ON HIS BUSINESSES AND HIS CAMP, SPERLIN , AND MANY MANY MORE PEOPLE
SO LETS SEE WHO ARE THE ONE TO PREACH ABOUT CALLING 311?
DO THESE MOSSERIM HAVE A HETER TO CALL 311?
CHAIM HERSHKOP HAS POSTED A FEW PSAK DINS ON WHEN ITS OK TO MOSSER .
LETS ALL NOT FORGET THAT RABBI MARLOW ZICHRON LEVRACHA GAVE A HETER TO CALL THE POLICE ON THESE TERRORIST FOR THEY PUT PEOPLES LIVES IN DANGER .
BUT APPARENTLY NO ONE WILL GO DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND MOSSER .

It is known as the Citizen’s Service Center in the halls of New York City government. It is a quick and anonymous way to report anyone who is ostensibly doing something illegal. Is someone running an illegal business next door to you? No problem. Dial 311. The problem is that, from a Torah perspective dialing these three harmless-looking digits can also be an instant way in which to lose one’s Olam HaBah [See Shulchan Aruch Choshain Mishpat 388:9].

Indeed the Gemorah in Rosh HaShana describes the horrifying Gehenam-filled fate of someone who engages in Mesirah. The Shach (Yore Deah 388:53) cites a number of authorities (Tosfos and Hagaos Ashri) that someone who actually converted to another religion is better off than someone who engaged in Mesirah.

Is it ever permitted to dial the three digits? Yes, but being that the repercussions are so fraught with danger, it is better not to make that judgment call oneself and only do so after consulting heavily with a qualified Posaik. So when is it permitted?

The Shulchan Aruch (as amended by the Shach in 388:12 and 10) rules that if a person is causing significant distress to an individual it is, nonetheless, completely forbidden to perform a Mesirah. If, however, the entire community is suffering then, after the person is warned (see Vilna Gaon and Sanhedrin 72b), they may report the offender.

There are a number of questions. What is to be considered “significant distress?” The example cited by the Ramah is that the person is engaging in counterfeiting and will thus endanger the community.

It would seem that the “significant distress” should be similarly significant. Issues of violence and sexual abuse, of course, are significant. Indeed, even if it is just to one individual, the issue of Pikuach Nefesh may be involved and a call would be required under such circumstances.

What about threatening Mesirah? There is a story going around (we all certainly hope that it is not true) that a woman wanted a day care center to take in her child and was told that there was no more room.

She then told the operator that if they did not take in her child, she would promptly report them to the authorities. Rav Dovid Morgenstern Shlita, a Rav and Posaik in Yerushalayim and the right-hand man of Rav Elyashiv Shlita ruled that there is absolutely no heter to cause someone such an anxiety even by threatening to do a Mesirah. Indeed, the Maharik (Shoresh 126) rules that someone important who threatens to do a Mesirah is forbidden to give testimony and is considered Pasul Le’Aidus.

How about jailing an ex-spouse who has not kept her agreement for visitations? Or how about jailing a non-paying ex who is behind in alimony or child support? It is difficult to see how any of these can be justified Halachically and it is also difficult to imagine if either of them will see any Olam HaBah.

Can these people do Teshuvah? In the HaGaos Ashri (Chapter Zeh Borrer) there is an indication that if someone does the requisite Teshuvah and also obtains the forgiveness of the person who he or she informed upon, then their Olam HaBah can be restored. It seems clear, however, that one without the other would not be sufficient.

In conclusion, the issue is one that is fraught with danger and if anyone values his or her portion in the world-to-come, such a drastic step should only be taken after consultation with leading Poskim, and after the person has been sufficiently warned. If there is no time for a warning, the leading Poskim should be consulted as to what to do.

The Ramah rules that in such circumstances the report may, nonetheless, be made.

Missing from this 'discussion' is all context.

No dissenting halakhic opinions are cited, even though they exist.

And the difference between a democracy and a totalitarian state is not mentioned.

Many rabbinic judges rule that in a democracy where all citizens regardless of religion are treated equally, the prohibition of mesira does not exist. The US is often used as a paradigm of that.

The Shomrim Members blog post was written in response to a competing Chabad organization whose leader did call authorities. So, in practice, the Chabad street is not uniform in their practice.

But the opinion expressed in the above blog post is the norm. It is the way the prohibition of mesira is taught in Chabad schools and preached in Chabad shuls.

And in practice it leaves criminals on the street, and dangerous buildings, construction sites, restaurants unchecked.

Comments

[Anon please]

All the Chabad talk about to call or not is garbage. It goes back to the old boys network. If you are in the network, you are, by definition, innocent at all times, securely in the safety net, and no reporting allowed at all. If, however, you are not part of the in-crowd, well, to H-ll with you. In this case, it is back to the old soviet methods, encouraging family to inform and destroy, while lying Chabad rabbis sit back and say they can't do a thing.
Chabad has no problem with making accusations, false or otherwise. Granny wants to see the kids? tough luck, make a false complaint against her, too.
Chabad has no problem ignoring the commands to honor and respect parents.
They see parents as the enemy. After all, a close relationship with your mom is dangerous, especially if she is observant, as she might keep you a little free from the brainwashing cult.

[Anon please]

Restaurants? yup. I checked a while ago - half of the Crowne Hts kashruth restaurants in CH have had on going and BIG health code violations.
Didn't even have sinks for the workers after bathroom, lots of disgusting stuff.
I wrote to the CHK, and gave them the list, no response. I guess R. Osdoba has no problem with our eating dead insects, and rat feces.

[Althelion]

To summarize: Followers are taught that communicating with non-Jewish police and social welfare authorities are a gateway to going to hell when you die.

"Indeed the Gemorah in Rosh HaShana describes the horrifying Gehenam-filled fate of someone who engages in Mesirah."

Followers are taught that they are incapable of assessing(thinking about) a dangerous situation and deciding what is the right thing to do. Instead, followers are taught to do nothing until a wise rav tells them what to do.

"it is better not to make that judgment call oneself and only do so after consulting heavily with a qualified Posaik."

In conclusion: Yidden!! Close the ghetto door tightly and make sure it's locked. Don't let anybody in, don't let anybody out. Listen to your wise gedolim. They know. You don't. Listen for the footsteps of you-know-who. Do you hear the footsteps?

[Anon please]

What a joke!
Look at the spelling errors in the heading of the blog!

SHOMRIM MEMBERS
"There is a heter from a few Rabonim to publisize this information about these guys who mosser on other jews"

[A E ANDERSON]

This is a Crown Heights issue, and a halakhic issue. But it is nothing to do with Habad, a religious movement, its teachings or its leaders. It's a local (haredi) Crown Heights thing. (Aside from the fact that Lubavitcher yungerleit and bachurim who move in these circles (Shmira/Shomrim) are usually thought of as grube yunge, if not outright "bums" (in the yeshivishe meaning of the word).

[A E ANDERSON]

inserted HTML closed "i" tag.

Whew!

[seymour]

And in practice it leaves criminals on the street, and dangerous buildings, construction sites, restaurants unchecked.
====================================
yes and that is what the low lives are banking on

The problem is many ultr orthodox still have the ghetto mentality

[Yosef ben Matitya]

funny, considering they are (well, almost) no longer jewish themselves!

[Menachem Mendel lll]

I love this line:

"The Shach (Yore Deah 388:53) cites a number of authorities (Tosfos and Hagaos Ashri) that someone who actually converted to another religion is better off than someone who engaged in Mesirah"

If this was true in the real velt we Abishter fearing yiddelach would cease to exist because there would not be a Jew life on earth thanks to our own big mouths and how we value loshen hara and ratting on own people for a buck no different than the Jewish kapos did during WWll for an exta piece of bread and shot of vino.

[Betzalel]

The Gematria of איש, the Hebrew word for man, is 311. If you see someone doing something illegal which may hurt others, be a man and dial 311.

[Alter Kocker]

The entire concept of mesira must be eradicated from the jewish landscape. This is 2010, not 1810. There are no cossacks ready to pounce on every little Jewish transgression. Many on this site are right, the UO know that most of their own kind will not report anything from health code violations to kiddy diddling. After all, the violator may be a large contributor to a yeshiva. The moser's family will be hounded. There will be no appropriate matches for their children. We need to say-to hell with this. It is long overdue that we clean up our act. I have had many a UO businessman sitting across from me, laughing that his costs were way down because (a)his workers would not inform on him for safety violations or (b)his workers would not inform on him for health code violations and (c) his workers will never inform the tax authorities about the money he takes out of the till and (d)he does not pay overtime or benefits because he does not tell the appropriate authorities about his staff size or hours of work requirements, and staff will not inform on him.

[MIkal W. Grass]

A.E. Anderson,

You from Miami or Coral Gables?

Mikal

[steve]

Issues of violence and sexual abuse, of course, are significant. Indeed, even if it is just to one individual, the issue of Pikuach Nefesh may be involved and a call would be required under such circumstances

Wow, what a daring statement. Did they ask a shailah before posting such a statement? Is sexual abuse really "significant"? I don't know, maybe counterfeiting is more significant? Maybe we need to pose this question again and again to the heilige rabbonim. What if the abuse was "through clothing"? What if there was no penetration? What if the molester did "tshuvah"? What if it was consensual? What if the child is lying? If we tell the child that it's mesira, maybe it will stop him from lying. After all, children who are vicious fabricators and are not afraid of perjuring themselves in court, would be afraid of being oiver the laws of mesira. Maybe these issues should continue to be handled "internally"? Shouldn't we worry about the molester's family losing their "breadwinner"? Shouldn't we be sensitive to this family's shidduchim prospects? Chaim Dovid Zwiebel/Dovid Niederman/Avi Shafran/Yaakov Perlow, if any of you are reading this, tell me if I left anything out. You guys have done a tremendous job so far in protecting child molesters and I want to make sure that your message comes through very clearly to the oilam. Your deep wisdom in advancing the above irrefutable arguments needs to be publicized to insure that never again should a "frum" child molester be reported to the police.

[Alter Kocker]

Steve:
Thank you for putting this so eloquently. The concept of mesira has kept the child molesters out there, hunting our children and propagating the number of molesters. If there were justice in this world, it would be that the molesters in our community should be castrated with a rusty knife.

I side with Dennis Miller on this one, if your demons are so very virulent that they make you put your hands on a child, then by all means, take your own life.

To hell with mesira and the dark forces that ensure a deadly silence.

[Anon]

Sounds like the concept of "don't snitch" exists in some Haredi groups also and not just some of the other cultures that live in Crown Heights.