What Happened?

Were any of you in Riverdale last night?

Were you in Riverdale last night for the first woman-led Orthodox Kabbalat Shabbat service in America held at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale (Rabbi Avi Weiss's shul)?

If you were there, please tell us what happened.

Thanks!

Related Post.

Comments

[Bill]

I came. I saw. I came again.

Kol be'isha ervah!

[randomthought]

lol

[Abracadabra]

omg - Seriously! Was anyone there? I'm also ssooooo curious!

Hey Shmarya - next time - send an undercover spy when you have an event like this - PLEASE!

[Dr. Dave]

Who cares about Riverdale!!

Were any of you invited to the Clinton wedding?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Did the ground open up and swallow the entire gathering, as some might suppose (and wish)?

[chaim]

why did you delete my post asking why some of you write comments on shabbos

[Shmarya]

I didn't delete your comment Chaim. You left it on another post:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/07/breaking-in-american-first-orthodox-synagogue-to-have-woman-lead-kabbalat-shabbat-services-tonight-678.html?cid=6a00d83451b71f69e20133f2c2d6d9970b#comment-6a00d83451b71f69e20133f2c2d6d9970b

[harold]

Did the ground open up and swallow the entire gathering, as some might suppose (and wish)?

It appears so since nobody appears to have survived to tell the world what happened.

[chaim]

Thanks
I see they are not even ashamed of writing on the shabbos. The time of the post is there for anyone to see. I think you should not allow it. This is an orthodox jewish blog and it goes against all orthodox jewish practice.

[Shmarya]

I see they are not even ashamed of writing on the shabbos. The time of the post is there for anyone to see. I think you should not allow it. This is an orthodox jewish blog and it goes against all orthodox jewish practice.

Please.

First of all, some of these people may be commenting from places like Australia, where Shabbos is already over.

Secondly, I do not restrict commenters to those who follow "Orthodox practice."

Past that, electricity is not even a d'rabbanan. According to Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and others, it does not violate any halakha.

[chaim]

Please
i looked up my original post and the people all answered that they wrote on shabbos. No one is ashamed of it. I am not aware that turning on a computer and writing one infringes no laws of shabbos, but if this is the case, do you want me also to start writing on the shabbos?

[the usual chaim.]

I just want it clear that the chaim posting above is not me. I will be changing my name to "usual chaim" for this site so to differentiate myself as this has happened several times... that "chaim" posts things i find objectionable.

[chaim1]

ok changed my name as well
what exactly do you find objectionable?

[mike]

This is an orthodox jewish blog??????????????????????????????????????????????????
This is a blog for self hating Jews, for the lowest dregs of our people, for those who need to find fault in others in order to feel good about their own pathetic existence. They spew hate and rechillus about all frum Jews, not only Chabad. Chaim, you are a fool if you think this is an orthodox site and the people commenting here are in any way shomer Torah and mitzvos.

[Ma Rabbi]

Shmaya the "fake rabbi" is at it again:
It is forbidden to turn on a computer on Shabbos.
It is forbidden to type with a computer on Shabbos.
BTW to Chaim. This is NOT an Orthodox Blog by any standards. I am only bothering to reply lest some innocent person be mislead.

[Shmarya]

Chaim, you are a fool if you think this is an orthodox site and the people commenting here are in any way shomer Torah and mitzvos.

Most of my readers are "shomer Torah and mitzvot."

It's just that they take mitzvot like do not steal to be important, and find your rabbis' behavior disgusting.

[Tam]

Past that, electricity is not even a d'rabbanan. According to Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and others, it does not violate any halakha.

Drawing or writing (in this case typing) any 2 letters that make-up a word is d’oraisa.

[Seraphya]

I am from Australia, and I find it very annoying when Jewish organizations block their content when it is shabbat in their timezone.
Since when does a server have to follow hilchot shabbat?

[Shmarya]

Shmaya the "fake rabbi" is at it again:
It is forbidden to turn on a computer on Shabbos.
It is forbidden to type with a computer on Shabbos.

Ah! Ma 'Rabbi' the ignoramus is at it again.

It is N-O-T forbidden by halakha to do those things; it is forbidden by societal norms, norms put in place by rabbis who did so because they feared modernity.

These rabbis in effect made up halakha to ban the use of electricity.

Besides Rabbi Auerbach's honest admission of this, you could also note that many hasidic rebbes used to turn electric lights on and off on Yom Tov – until the thought police forced them to stop.

Since Yom Tov restrictions are taken from Shabbos restrictions, you can see my point stands and yours does not.

Drawing or writing (in this case typing) any 2 letters that make-up a word is d’oraisa.

Tam is clearly a shoteh.

Even normative rabbinic opinion holds that typing on a computer is not a d'orita violation of writing on Shabbat.

All it is, at most, is a shvut.

[rabbidw]

Except for Shabat, I leave my computer on 24/7. I could easily leave it on over shabat. Typing on a computer does NOT have the halachos of writing. It is not permanent. Printing a screen would be writing, not typing. I am not advocating using the computer on shabat. It is definitely uvdah d'chol, something that is appropriate for the weekday and not shabat, but let's get our halachic categories straight. And no one here is the halachic police.

[Ma Rabbi]

Reply to rabbidw:
Typing with a computer on Shabbos would violate the Issur of Muktze along with several other Issurei Drabonon.
"No one here is the Halacha police"
Thats true and I dont want to argue Halacha on this blog. I was just replying to Shmaryas wild statement lest some innocent person be mislead into violating Shabbos.

[Shmarya]

Typing with a computer on Shabbos would violate the Issur of Muktze along with several other Issurei Drabonon.

No, it would not.

It violates a shvut.

If you knew med ethics halakhot, you'd know that.

[chaim1]

i turned the computer on yesterday AFTER shabbos and was most surprised to find that there had been posters on shabbos with jewish and even yiddish names. when i asked about it they all replied yes we wrote on shabbos. I would suggest that although people are anonymous here and so they should be, if tbey are so unorthodox that they write publicly on shabbos, at least we should know that. So next time they post we will know if its because they genuinely have a Jewish thought on the matter even though it may not be the acceptable one, or it comes from their what i call non-Jewishness.

i am sure if a goy were to post about jewish subjects you would rather he identifies him/herself as such. why should a non practising jew who to all intents is the same be any different.

[Ma Rabbi]

You can ask any competent Orthodox rabbi. If they have Semicha from YU, MTJ, Lubavitch,Chaim Berlin etc. Every rabbi will tell you that it is forbidden to type with a computer on Shabbos.

[Shmarya]

You can ask any competent Orthodox rabbi. If they have Semicha from YU, MTJ, Lubavitch,Chaim Berlin etc. Every rabbi will tell you that it is forbidden to type with a computer on Shabbos.

But if you ask them about Rabbi Auerbach's position or point out what was the norm for many hasidic rebbes 75 years ago, either they won't know how to answer or they will tell you what I have already told you.

[Bill]

i am constantly in a jet flying around the world chasing the Friday afternoon sun.

it's never shabbat anywhere I am - as far as I'm concerned..

in fact, it's still 1982 by my calculation.

:-)

[chaim1]

"If we write here on Shabbos, Chaim, will you like us even less, or possibly hate us?

Does raising the issue do anything for you? Have you considered not bringing up the matter, so as not to embarrass your fellow Yidden?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | July 31, 2010 at 07:53 PM "

Why do you call it 'embarrass' does that mean you believe i am right that one should keep shabbos and they all have a guilty conscience, or hirhur tshuva.

And their time is clearly mentioned here it is not i who 'embarrass' them.

[zach]

One small correction: even RSZA says that incandescent lights are a form of aish and it is prohibited to turn them on - mi d'oraisah - on Shabbos (but turning off is only a rabbinic prohibition.)

[Shmarya]

Why do you call it 'embarrass' does that mean you believe i am right that one should keep shabbos and they all have a guilty conscience, or hirhur tshuva.

And their time is clearly mentioned here it is not i who 'embarrass' them.

I think the real issue, Chaim, is that many of these people were haredi and now are no longer what you would call 100% frum, because they saw the corruption and lies of your community on a daily basis for years. It made them sick. And they left, or they want to leave.

I think you should worry about the child rapists freely roaming in your community and the agunot created by husbands who extort their wives and rabbis who enable them. And lets not forget the Rubashkins and the Rubashin wannabees like Leib Pinter and Eliyahu Weinstein and the rabbis who have enabled them for years.

If you clean up those terrible problems, Chaim, your complaints about Shabbos might have some resonance.

Of course, cleaning up those problems takes courage and strength, and I seriously doubt you have either of those qualities.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Chaim:

I'm Jewish. I posted on Shabbos. And no, I'm not the least bit ashamed of it, as I'm not shomer Shabbos, and never was.

If it upsets you, Chaim, I'll post on Yom Kippur. Rosh Hashana, too. Just to piss you off.

If seeing my posts on Shabbot offends you, Chaim, you can pluck your eyes out.

[Shmarya]

One small correction: even RSZA says that incandescent lights are a form of aish and it is prohibited to turn them on - mi d'oraisah - on Shabbos (but turning off is only a rabbinic prohibition.)

I think what he said was that anything that produces incandescent light or generates heat (enough to cook) should be avoided. But I don't think he said they were d'orita.

[chaim1]

No Mr Apikorus your post on shabbos did not offend me. At least your name spells it out. And now you say you never was. You are 'tinok shenishba' to be pitied not offended. Considering your name you can rant and rave and no one orthodox will take any notice of you.
No my heart goes out to the ones shmarya mentions, i am offended by them who were once frum.
there have always been bad apples and i am afraid there always will be. Mr Apikoros you are not unique and have nothing to be proud about.but because of a few bad apples is not a reason to drop yidishkeit altogether. Yes there may be more important things as you say, but this weeks sedra is 'eikev' meaning the unimportant things.

[Shmarya]

there have always been bad apples and i am afraid there always will be

As I wrote above:…many of these people were haredi and now are no longer what you would call 100% frum, because they saw the corruption and lies of your community on a daily basis for years. It made them sick. And they left, or they want to leave.

I think you should worry about the child rapists freely roaming in your community and the agunot created by husbands who extort their wives and rabbis who enable them. And lets not forget the Rubashkins and the Rubashin wannabees like Leib Pinter and Eliyahu Weinstein and the rabbis who have enabled them for years.

If you clean up those terrible problems, Chaim, your complaints about Shabbos might have some resonance.

Of course, cleaning up those problems takes courage and strength, and I seriously doubt you have either of those qualities.But have no courage,do you Chaim?

[chaim1]

Shamarya
i have a question to you. Why is it that the real orthodox use normal English and the non orthodox like Mr Apikoros apart from not keeping shabbos rarely have a post without some type of bad language.
is it just coincidence or is it, that it is the only way he and his ilk can put his obnoxious points across by emphasizing them in this way.
what i am saying is that once one stops keeping shabbos he loses his 'mentchlichkeit' as well.

[Tam]

because they saw the corruption and lies of your community on a daily basis for years. It made them sick. And they left

Shmarya,

In the case of Mr. Apikorus (where he went off the derech completely), if you were G-D would such an excuse hold water?

[Shmarya]

In the case of Mr. Apikorus (where he went off the derech completely), if you were G-D would such an excuse hold water?

1. Mr. Apikorus was never Orthodox.

2. Yes, if I were God I would see that as a valid excuse.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I never was on the derech, Tam. So I didn't fall off.

Chaim, or Chaim1 or whomever you are: You ultra-Orthodox don't use normal English. You are barely literate. Moreover, my salty language pales in comparison with your intolerance of those of us who chose not to live in the Dark Ages. You are a disgrace to everything that's supposed to be Jewish.

And who appointed you, Tam, to speak for God?

[Catcher50]

This gets to the heart of the problem. I am Jewish (although I only have one set of grandparents Ketubah [not the Nazis who destroyed the other, rather the second wife of my other grandfather]). I try not to characterize myself as belonging to any particular group and I am a member of a congregation that, currently, meets my needs. I consider myself serious about my Judaism, constantly read, study, ask questions, etc. When the frumis cast aspersions about my Judaism, it just makes me more and more convinced that it is them and not me that have become something other than Jewish. Specifically, a cult that may well become a new religion, but may eventually virtually disappear under the weight of their own nonsense.

[Shmarya]

i have a question to you. Why is it that the real orthodox use normal English and the non orthodox like Mr Apikoros apart from not keeping shabbos rarely have a post without some type of bad language.
is it just coincidence or is it, that it is the only way he and his ilk can put his obnoxious points across by emphasizing them in this way.
what i am saying is that once one stops keeping shabbos he loses his 'mentchlichkeit' as well.

1. What is "mentchlichkeit" about turning a blind eye to child rape, abuse of women and rampant theft and fraud in haredi communities like you do?

2. Why is it that so many haredi commenters are illiterate?

3. Why is it you cannot understand a very simple fact? When normal people see falsehood, lying, bribery, theft, fraud, rape and abuse sanctioned by religious leaders, people tend to get very upset. Could it be that you are so abnormal that you don't feel this justifiable and necessary anger?

[Mr. Apikoros]

Maybe I'm too charitable, but I actually don't believe most Haredim tolerate child abuse, theft, and fraud.

What I do believe is that they're afraid of being labeled "moserim" and being shunned and excommunicated by the only community they ever knew.

These guys remind me of the winged monkeys in the Wizard of Oz. Once the Wicked Witch of the West's spell was terminated, a great yoke was lifted from their necks.

[itchiemayer]

nu, so did anyone hear the chazzanit?

[Radical Feminist]

Translations please?
Muktze?
shvut?
shilcot?
shoteh?
Drabonon?
moserim?
Machid?
Any others I left out?

[Radical Feminist]

I meant to spell
machpid what does that mean, can find it in my Hebrew English dicotionary

[Mr. Apikoros]

I don't know the other ones, but I can help you out with "moserim," which I may have not spelled correctly.

It means snitch. Rat. One who informs on another, esp. another religious Jew.

[Nobody]

"

You can ask any competent Orthodox rabbi. If they have Semicha from YU, MTJ, Lubavitch,Chaim Berlin etc. Every rabbi will tell you that it is forbidden to type with a computer on Shabbos.

But if you ask them about Rabbi Auerbach's position or point out what was the norm for many hasidic rebbes 75 years ago, either they won't know how to answer or they will tell you what I have already told you.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 01, 2010 at 09:26 AM "

More likely, they've never learned that teshuvah and it'd be a surprise if they'd learned any teshuvahs like most people and the mass of so-called "rabbis" who know next to nothing.

Shmarya, for the benefit of readers, could you please translate the term, "shvut?"

[uit]

Chaim, or Chaim1 or whomever you are: You ultra-Orthodox don't use normal English. You are barely literate. Moreover, my salty language pales in comparison with your intolerance of those of us who chose not to live in the Dark Ages. You are a disgrace to everything that's supposed to be Jewish

Salty language. Is that what you call it. I am pleased to see that in your last posts you are careful not to use it. well we are progressing. You may one day even keep shabbos. Or at least yom kippur there is hope yet.
To shmarya. i dont belong to those who sanction all those things and neither do i class these people who do as rabbis. the torah is quite specific that they deserve death and that is what i believe.
i am much more extreme than you in every way and in every thing you state.
but because these so called rabbis dont keep the torah (and they dont, and many more things you havent mentioned) is not gods fault. and is no reason to turn ones back on him.
Back to Mr Apikoros i have to hold you in more respect now. What exactly do you consider being Jewish means as opposed to other religions. In which way are you different to a christian. You both dont keep shabbos or yom kippur, eat pig, dont keep family purity.
is it just that your place of worship (if you have one)doesnt have a cross to kiss. It most likely wont have a torah scroll either. Since you dont keep a single thing there.

[Ma Rabbi]

Reply to "Nobody"
A Shvut is a Rabbinical decree. So saying that its forbidden to type on Shabbos because its a "Shvut" or because the rabbis forbid it is essentially the same thing.
Most Orthodox rabbis do study and know Halacha better than the layman.
Rav Shlomo Zalman NEVER said that its OK to type with a computer on Shabbos. In the first place they did not even have computers in those days.
As I wrote previously the computer is MUKTZE on Shabbos as well as several other rabbinical prohibitions.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chaim, or whoever you are-

The vast majority of ALL Jews in the world do NOT keep Shabbos or kosher, certainly not by orthodox rules. This must be killing you. Give yourself a break.

By the way, your 'family purity' rules are sheer insanity.

[yudel]

one thing is for certain reading these posts no one wonder kiruv is a near complete failure .look at your ugliness and ga-avah on the roll here..not all of you...but sick is sick and the ugly writers are flat out giving over Chillul Hashem ..You all sound like the 18 year mullahs and imans on line who appointed them to give out fatwah's. You all forgot you have to ask questions in specific in detail with true sincerity , no fudging to get a ruling.

makes me wonder about your married lives...

..and do not tell me that Aish, Ohr Sameyach , etc have brought in thousands..they have a psak halacha to double count and lie. another thing we can be certain of cause we have counts over 100,000 jews have gone over to hebrew christianity.

And say what you will--- you have no clue who i am -----who i was raised by nor any clue of what i have been doing in outreach for 35 years and clearly my name is not going to mentioned. Most of you know of me.

[A. Nuran]

For crying out loud, did anyone here go to the Kabbalat Shabbat service in Riverdale?

[Radical Feminist]

Help a yidishe medella who is not shomer shabbos okay translations PLEASE so I can actually leanr what you folks are talking about.
Translations please?
Muktze?
shilcot?
shoteh?
Drabonon?
moserim?
Machid?
Any others I left out?

[uit]

Chaim, or whoever you are-

The vast majority of ALL Jews in the world do NOT keep Shabbos or kosher, certainly not by orthodox rules. This must be killing you. Give yourself a break.

By the way, your 'family purity' rules are sheer insanity.

you were the one worried that i was embarrassing you. i cant think why.
have you lost your hirhur tshuva?

Even the reform which i suppose you either belong to or support believe in mikva when it comes to conversion. Its just that they dont have a mikva of their own. Now isnt that insanity. when is a mikva insanity and when isnt it?
i suppose youve never been to one unless you are a convert. i can assure you its no different to a bath and one doesnt feel any holier after it. the water is not blessed at all either. One can even go for a swim in the sea it achieves the same purpose and is just as kosher. it is even more kosher than a mikva. So why are the reform so particular on a mikva?
orthodox jews arent.
the insanity seems to lie elsewhere.

[Ma Rabbi]

Reply to Radical Feminist:
This blog is NOT the place to teach Torah but since you asked twice:
1Muktze means things set aside not to be used on Shabbos
2Shoteh means a fool
3Drabonon means things that the rabbis forbid by the authority that the Torah gives them to do so.
4 Moser is a snitch
5 Makpid means things that people are careful to do or not do. Ex I am "makpid" to only eat Cholev Yisroel

I hope that some day soon you will become a Shommer Shabbos.

[Yonah]

Although I'm shomer shabbat, my timestamp probably claims I post on Shabbat. That's because I'm in Eretz Yisrael and here Shabbat is already over. Please don't assume.

I second the calls for people who were there...

[Successful Messiah]

"Ah! Ma 'Rabbi' the ignoramus is at it again."

Ma 'Rabbi' may be ignoramus but you are both an ignoramus and a liar.

"It is N-O-T forbidden by halakha to do those things; it is forbidden by societal norms,"

You fail to note that while those are the views of Rabbi Auerbach, others (probably the majority) disagreed. You also fail to note that when it comes to typing Rabbi Auerbach, perhaps uncharacteristacally, held a more stringent view than many of the other rabbis. He held that typing in a manner that the information stored on some electronic media is an issur of boneh.

"norms put in place by rabbis who did so because they feared modernity."

Anyone with a rudimentary level of intelligence and some basic knowledge of jewish history would realize that fear of modernity, while it may exist, had nothing to do with this. All these modern innovations are freely used by the most orthodox of jews during the other six days of the week. This "minhag" (as Rabbi Auerbach calls it) arose because of disputes and uncertainties relating to whether the use of electricity was permitted on shabbos. For various reasons, the more stringent views prevailed as a matter of practice. Once that happened, Rabbi Auerbach was of the view that the use of electrical devices was prohibited for everyone, even if the view that it is not a technical violation is the correct view. Thus the only practical significance of Rabbi Auerbach's view is the level of urgency necessary to permit the use of electricity. Accordingly to Rabbi Auerbach, it would be permitted in instances that fall short of rising to the level of pikuach nefesh.

"These rabbis in effect made up halakha to ban the use of electricity."

This is one of your more moronic statements considering that electricity was only banned one day out of each week.

[uit]

to yonah
here is a list
maskil 1.30 am
bassy 10.33 am
apikoros 1.42 pm
yona 4.09 pm
chaim 6.12 pm

perhaps apikoros lives in pakistan, or maybe he should move there, that would allow him i think to come on at 1.42 pm. He certainly has as much in common with islam as with judaism.

[Shmarya]

Rav Shlomo Zalman NEVER said that its OK to type with a computer on Shabbos. In the first place they did not even have computers in those days.
As I wrote previously the computer is MUKTZE on Shabbos as well as several other rabbinical prohibitions.

MA Rabbi again proves that he doesn't know halakha.

As I told you before, Rabbi Auerbach's position of electricity proves you wrong, as does the behavior 75 years ago of dozens of hasidic rabbis with regard to Yom Tov use of electric lights on Yom Tov.

This has practical application in medical halakha, as you can see from the pesak dinim of Rabbi Auerbach and others.

As for your remark that "they did not even have computers in those days," Rabbi Auerbach died in 1995 (I was at his funeral), more than 10 years AFTER personal computers became common, even in Israel.

You are an ignoramus. But you're a Chabad rabbi, too – which is no contradiction to being a shoteh, now is there?

[chaim1]

sorry my name was mistakenly erased and uit in its place

[jay]

Fascinating how some of you focus solely on the fact that some posters who make no pretense of being shomer shabbat posted on shabbat. It would be quite refreshing to see any of you post with such diligence in the cases where Orthodox Jewish "leaders" lie, cheat, rape, steal, molest or otherwise break the law.

To Radical Feminist;
Muktzah is a rabbinical construct to "protect' the sabbath. If any item has no necessary use on Shabbat or could perhaps cause one to violate the strictures of Shabbat, the rabbis forbid the use thereof.

Example: picking up a rock for no apparent reason on shabbat is forbidden- it's muktzah. However, if you set aside some rocks right before shabbat with the intention of using them to (for example) hold down a tablecloth on an outdoor table being used for a Shabbat meal- they are not muktzah.

[Shmarya]

This "minhag" (as Rabbi Auerbach calls it) arose because of disputes and uncertainties relating to whether the use of electricity was permitted on shabbos. For various reasons, the more stringent views prevailed as a matter of practice. Once that happened, Rabbi Auerbach was of the view that the use of electrical devices was prohibited for everyone, even if the view that it is not a technical violation is the correct view. Thus the only practical significance of Rabbi Auerbach's view is the level of urgency necessary to permit the use of electricity. Accordingly to Rabbi Auerbach, it would be permitted in instances that fall short of rising to the level of pikuach nefesh.

Please.

If you cut through the crap you've written, oh dull messiah, you end up with what I wrote.

Electricity is NOT a d'orita violation of Shabbat and probably is not a d'rabbanan violation, either.

And, like it or not, rabbis did in essence make up the halakha banning electricity.

The Hazon Ish's formulation that electricity is boneh is laughable, and was clearly done for societal reasons to combat modernity.

Similarly, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe sent his son-in-law –– the future 7th rebbe and then current failed electrical engineer –– to various rabbis in the New York area to explain to them why electricity was fire.

That electricity is not fire, that it is not assur, and that Menachem Mendel wasn't much of an engineer the Rayyatz forgot to mention.

And your remark about typing on a computer being considered boneh by Rabbi Auerbach seems wrong, since he rather famously told doctors electricity was an issue of societal norms, a shvut, not in any way a d'orita or a d'rabbanan (although he did say that doctors should stay away if possible from doing anything with electricity that turned on an incandescent light bulb or generated enough heat to cook).

[Mr. Apikoros]

Chaim:

I don't give a damn how you practice your religion.

If you want to waste all your time procreating through a hole in the wall, rather than working to support the brood you already have, that's OK with me. Just don't ask me to contribute one red cent or agurot, or kopek, to their support.

If you want to spend whatever time you have left after getting your rocks off with the mieskeit who's married to you davening, that's fine with me as well. But don't harass others on how to practice their religion. And certainly, don't threaten them with death unless you're willing to back it up, which I'm sure you're totally incapable of doing.

By the way, I don't live in Pakistan, but in the Eastern time zone of the United States of America.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with being a Christian. It's a wonderful religion; just ask my Protestant wife. But there's plenty wrong with being a stinking Haredi son of a bitch like yourself who believes that those who don't obey all 613 of your (not God's) commandments must be killed.

Now go crawl back under your rock. schmendrick.

[chaim1]

Your salty language as you call it, is eating away at you. i didnt think you could last long without it. Most likely your protestant shiksa cooked you some salted pork and the taste is still on your tongue.
For the record i have never been a parasite and dont believe that that is part of the jewish religion. and dont respect anyone who is.
your protestant shiksa is very welcome to have you, at least your kids have one religious parent at least theyre not jewish.
Maybe she does your typing for you on shabbos in that case i take everything back and you have no need to go to Pakistan to keep shabbos. For the record not all the 613 miztvot are punishable by death. Having a protestant wife, well, you make scrape through if there is no pinhas around.

Shmarya i believe that whatever we disagree upon, i think we're both agreed that a protestant shiksa is not the answer.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++you were the one worried that i was embarrassing you. i cant think why.
have you lost your hirhur tshuva?++

Chaim, I was trying to explain it to you in a way you might understand. I don't give a crap if you point out that I am not Shomer Shabbos. Maybe it's important to you and a handful of other silly yids who live in the ghettos of Brooklyn and upstate NY. The rest of the planet doesn't care.
I was taught not to publicly point out another person's lack of observing some mitzvah, since in a religious community that would be a source of embarrassment. Admonishing another Jew about his or her shortfalls in religious observances needs to be done in private with the greatest of sensitivity and in a positive way.
I guess you were absent the day they taught that in your yeshiva.

And what the heck is 'hirhur tshuva'? Please explain.

It's no wonder you can't deal with, much less understand, normal society. You can't even get beyond the fact that 99.999% of the world is not Shomer Shabbos.

The mikvah is just another way to control women, just like tznius, which also only seems to apply to women.

[chaim1]

I am sorry to have to say that you seem very ignorant of Jewish practices. I am not blaming you in any way, you are what is termed a 'tinuk shenishba'.
Yes you are right admonishing needs to be done in private, but considering everyone here is anonymous and has sinned publicly i think i am doing the right thing.
i see you have absolutely no idea what a mikva is and what it is used for and this post is too short for me to explain it.
yes you are right tsniut is meant for controlling women god decided that women have to be controlled. He didnt know where to take it from ADAM and decided on the rib considered the most tsniut part and that didnt help.

[Ma Rabbi]

Reply to Shmarya:
I meant and I think it was clear even to you that Rav Aurbach wrote his Teshuvah on electricity long before computers came out. I repeat again."He never wrote that one may type on a computer on Shabbos" even after computers were common.
Again its a waste of time argueing with you because you never admit that you were wrong and instead respond with childish insults. My only purpose in commenting on your blog was to avoid some innocent person being mislead.

[Shmarya]

I am sorry to have to say that you seem very ignorant of Jewish practices. I am not blaming you in any way, you are what is termed a 'tinuk shenishba'.

He is not ignorant of Jewish law, Chaim.

But you are ignorant – ignorant of your own arrogance and pomposity, and ignorant of your own copious shortcomings.

[Shmarya]

I meant and I think it was clear even to you that Rav Aurbach wrote his Teshuvah on electricity long before computers came out.

Nope. You're wrong.

[pierre]

So...no one went to Riverdale.

[Ma Rabbi]

" Nope You are wrong"
Am I now. Rabbi Aurbachs sefer on electricity "Meorei Eish" was published in 1935 long before computers.
Again show me where he writes in a later Teshuvah that "one may type on a computer on Shabbos" and I will apologize. But you cannot. Because he NEVER wrote such a statement.

[Radical Feminist]

yes you are right tsniut is meant for controlling women god decided that women have to be controlled.

Uh yeah? And you wonder why I went Reform?
Can you imagine being married to this guy?
Why did you write G-d with a small g?

[Mr. Apikoros]

Folks: This thread is about whether anyone here attended shul in Riverdale and saw the lady rabbi preside over services.

It's not about whether electricity is fire (it isn't, unless there's a short-circuit somewhere), or whether I'm shomer shabbos (I'm not).

I still haven't seen an answer to this question: Were you there?

[Shmarya]

" Nope You are wrong"
Am I now. Rabbi Aurbachs sefer on electricity "Meorei Eish" was published in 1935 long before computers.
Again show me where he writes in a later Teshuvah that "one may type on a computer on Shabbos" and I will apologize. But you cannot. Because he NEVER wrote such a statement.

Please.

You are quite obviously unfamiliar with medical ethics halakha.

In the last 15 years of his life, many medical ethics questions were asked of Rabbi Auerbach. Some of those questions involved electric medical devices and their use on Shabbos.

Shoteh.

[Radical Feminist]

Ma Rabbiwrote
hope that some day soon you will become a Shommer Shabbos.

Thank you for the lesson and I try to be a little better every week.

[Mr. Apikoros]

"Your salty language as you call it, is eating away at you. i didnt think you could last long without it. Most likely your protestant shiksa cooked you some salted pork and the taste is still on your tongue."

Actually, Chaim, the Protestant shiksa cooked up some wonderful Chilean sea bass which we just purchased at our local Shoprite. Accompanying it were rice and fresh-frozen peas, and we finished off a bottle of (non-kosher) red wine, a Bolla.

I just finished cleaning up. Something I'll do with your ass on the streets of Lakewood, Williamsburg, or Boro Park, should we ever meet and should you give me any crap.

But this morning, the Protestant shiksa cooked up bacon and scrambled eggs. I guess the taste of the bacon is still in my mouth, even though I've brushed my teeth since then. It makes me feistier than usual.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mr. A, you rule!

Poor Chaim cannot grasp the concept that nonJewish people are also humans and no different than Jews.

Chaim's dietary restrictions eat away at him. The frummies seem to spend a lot of time talking about pork.
It's no wonder that when they finally decide to ditch the orthodox religion, they stuff themselves with bacon cheeseburgers.

[Ma Rabbi]

Again when you are wrong you resort to name calling.
A hospital situation is totally different than typing on your computer for regular purposes. I challenged you to show me where he says this is permitted and you cannot. You owe me an apology. I wont hold my breath waiting for it.

[itchiemayer]

Rad Fem - Your screen name says a lot, and I often disagree with you. However, I found your response to Ma Rabbi very touching. Yes, we all must try to be better, and never fool ourselves into thinking that we are perfect in our beliefs and actions.

I participate in several blogs because I want to hear other ideas that are out there.

Anyhow, your response was the type I wouldn't necessarily expect from either a radical or a feminist. I liked it.

[Shmarya]

Again when you are wrong you resort to name calling.
A hospital situation is totally different than typing on your computer for regular purposes. I challenged you to show me where he says this is permitted and you cannot. You owe me an apology. I wont hold my breath waiting for it.

And I challenge you to grasp simple English sentences, and I challenge you to grasp simple halakhic concepts.

Now process: Rabbi Auerbach dealt with electricity use on Shabbos both when he wrote his book 75 years ago and then far more recently when issues of electric medical devices, computer charting, and the like came up.

It is absolutely clear he held that electricity is no more than a shvut, and that there is no fire or boneh involved.

Not coincidentally, his opinion coincides with what science actually says about electricity.

The vast majority of rabbis who stopped using electricity, telephones and the like on Shabbos did so because a few anti-modernist rabbis in essence lied about what electricity is in order to ban its use on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

Among those lying rabbis is a failed engineer known as the Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, your late rebbe.

Jews do not have to follow lies. They do not have to follow the mistakes of disingenuous men.

Electricity is NOT forbidden d'orita or d'rabbannan.

It is 'forbidden' by a rabbinic decree based on lies and mistakes.

That said, even the most liberal Orthodox rabbi will tell people not to use electricity on Shabbos, because of the shvut.

That says far more about their cowardice than it does about electricity.

[Ma Rabbi]

Radical Feminist
I dont usually comment on this blog because of the rude manners of the owner. But when you wrote that you are a "Yiddishe Madelah" looking for an answer that touched my heart.
Your response that you "will try to do a little more each day" made it all worthwhile.

[chaim1]

Chaim's dietary restrictions eat away at him. The frummies seem to spend a lot of time talking about pork.
It's no wonder that when they finally decide to ditch the orthodox religion, they stuff themselves with bacon cheeseburgers.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 01, 2010 at 04:24

you remind of the gemoro which says one shouldnt say one doesnt eat pig because its revolting but rather its the best food out but god has forbidden it.

that's the end of this discussion for me thanks for all those who participated.

[Radical Feminist]

Ma Rabbi
Glad to touch your heart

[Mr. Apikoros]

Chaim1, go give yourself a bacon cheeseburger enema.

Then, gay kocken af'n yam, if you can't find a toilet more handy.

[Successful Messiah]

"If you cut through the crap you've written, oh dull messiah, you end up with what I wrote."

Of course, if you ignore all facts and reality then you end up with what you wrote. Those with minimal amounts of intelligence end up nowhere near what you wrote.

"Electricity is NOT a d'orita violation of Shabbat and probably is not a d'rabbanan violation, either."

You are free to take that position and to note that Rabbi Auerbach took that position, however, it is intellectually dishonest of you not to also note that this is the minority opinion of the poskim. With the exception of incandescent bulbs (which according to most poskim would violate a biblical prohibition) the majority of the poskim are of the view that electricity does violate a d'rabbonon, though there are varying views as to what that d'rabbonon is.

"And, like it or not, rabbis did in essence make up the halakha banning electricity."

Of course, every issur you disagree with is made up.

"The Hazon Ish's formulation that electricity is boneh is laughable, and was clearly done for societal reasons to combat modernity."

How exactly does banning electricity one day a week combat modernity?

"And your remark about typing on a computer being considered boneh by Rabbi Auerbach seems wrong"

That ruling is attributed to Rabbi Auerbach by Rabbi Neuwirth in his work Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasa. But I suppose you believe that your gut reaction is more accurate that Rabbi Neuwirth's affirmative account of Rabbi Auerbach's opinion. After all, Rabbi Neuwirth was only one of Rabbi Auerbach's closest students, while you probably never spoke to Rabbi Auerbach.

[Successful Messiah]

"That says far more about their cowardice than it does about electricity."

Ahh, yes, back to the old story, the vast majority of rabbis that lived during the past 100 years were cowards. The only person with the courage and conviction to say things they way they are is some bachelor blogging in his underwear from his mother's basement.

[rabbidw]

Shmarya, the reason I do not turn on electricity on Shabat, is that after all the technicalities of exactly what electricity is, in the world of physics, it is, unquestionably creative work, the kind of work that Shabat is meant to tell man to cease and desist.
Do you think when the Rabbis came up with the 39 major principles of work, based on the work in building the Tabernacle, they were concerned with the minutia of tabernacle buolding? No, they were trying to establish overall definitions of what is considered creative work. The use of Electricity is creative work, and it is forbidden on those frounds, not because of any parallel to building the tabernacle. The tabernacle was illustrative, not all inclusive.

[Shmarya]

"And your remark about typing on a computer being considered boneh by Rabbi Auerbach seems wrong"

That ruling is attributed to Rabbi Auerbach by Rabbi Neuwirth in his work Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasa. But I suppose you believe that your gut reaction is more accurate that Rabbi Neuwirth's affirmative account of Rabbi Auerbach's opinion. After all, Rabbi Neuwirth was only one of Rabbi Auerbach's closest students, while you probably never spoke to Rabbi Auerbach.

Nothing personal, oh very dull one, but Rabbi Neuwirth has a very well deserved reputation for pushing his mentor's words far to the right.

And the FACT remains that electricity is not fire and is not boneh. We know that absolutely.

That dishonest, ignorant or mistaken rabbis forced the Shabbat ban on electricity does NOT change what the true status of electricity really is.

Wrap your little mind around that.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, the reason I do not turn on electricity on Shabat, is that after all the technicalities of exactly what electricity is, in the world of physics, it is, unquestionably creative work, the kind of work that Shabat is meant to tell man to cease and desist.
Do you think when the Rabbis came up with the 39 major principles of work, based on the work in building the Tabernacle, they were concerned with the minutia of tabernacle buolding? No, they were trying to establish overall definitions of what is considered creative work. The use of Electricity is creative work, and it is forbidden on those frounds, not because of any parallel to building the tabernacle. The tabernacle was illustrative, not all inclusive.

Nice drush.

But tell me, can a Jew make up a new song on Shabbat or create a new melody for an old one?

Isn't that "creative work"?

Because if you say he can't, you've added a halakha to the Shulkhan Arukh, which is forbidden.

And if you say he he can, your drush gets thrown right out the window.

[mike]

Chaim,

Go learn some chassidus and stop wasting your time here.

[Simon Rose]

...And the FACT remains that electricity is not fire and is not boneh. We know that absolutely.

That dishonest, ignorant or mistaken rabbis forced the Shabbat ban on electricity does NOT change what the true status of electricity really is...

This is correct. Electricity is not fire, never was. A Rabbi saying otherwise does not change the true facts of nature.

The Rambam is clear on how to view science and logic issues. If a Rabbi/sage tells you something that is demonstratively wrong then no one is bound to listen to their ruling because it is just their personal opinion not a matter of Halacha or fact.

If people choose to refrain from using electricity for personal reasons or community standards it is only a personal choice NOT to be confused with Halacha.

To make the point clearer a Rabbi/Sage cannot rule a pig is a Kosher animal. Again the facts of nature can't be changed by wishful thinking.

[Mr. Apikoros]

The issue isn't whether electricity is or is not fire (it isn't), but whether using electricity on Shabbot is or isn't wrong. Just as SR points out.

I say no, it isn't. The purpose of Shabbot is to rest and enjoy oneself after six days of hard work, and perhaps to reflect about spiritual concerns in the process.

Doing so with the lights on doesn't impede the process. Turning up the heat if it's cold, or cranking up the A/C if it's too warm doesn't either. Same with pushing an elevator button if you want to go up or down from your apartment. Walking up and down 30 flights of stairs may be excellent exercise, but it's not necessarily a good way to relax and enjoy oneself on one's day off.

Those rabbis who turned what should be a day of enjoyment and enlightenment into a day of ordeal are a disgrace to Judaism, and a disgrace to mankind.

[tsvika55]

Mr. Apikoros,

your posts attracted my attention as it seemed there was much more then an insensitive "chaim" bothering you. and then i came across you admitting u married a shiksa. it all became very clear... if this post too vague, ask your grandparents for an explanation (they might be too busy spinning in their graves to explain...)

[Successful Messiah]

"Nothing personal, oh very dull one, but Rabbi Neuwirth has a very well deserved reputation for pushing his mentor's words far to the right."

Your dishonesty apparently knows no bounds. Rabbi Neuwirth in fact has the opposite reputation and in fact his first edition of Shemiras Shabbos was heavily criticized for citing the lenient view (that of his rabbi, Rabbi Auerbach) while not also noting that there are more stringent views. In later editions he identified the more stringent views as well. But apparently you know very little about Rabbi Neuwirth or his reputation. In any event, regardless of his reputation, Rabbi Auerbach personally reviewed Shemiras Shabbos before it was published (and provided comments that were incorporated before it was published) and it seems highly unlikely that he would allow Rabbi Neuwirth to publish a position that he attributed to Rabbi Auerbach if that was not his view.

"And the FACT remains that electricity is not fire and is not boneh. We know that absolutely."

Virtually no poskim take the position that electricity is fire, so this is a strawman that you keep on raising because you refuse to address the actual issue. There is no way to make an objective determination whether electricity is or is not boneh. That is a subjective determination made based on one's interpretation of boneh.

"That dishonest, ignorant or mistaken rabbis forced the Shabbat ban on electricity does NOT change what the true status of electricity really is."

You seem to have a habit of disagreeing with the views of the vast majority of experts in halacha. And not only do you disagree with them, you seem to have an inability to acknowledge that an opposing view may be rational so you label everyone else as being dishonest, ignorant or mistaken and seem to have disillusioned yourself into thinking that people will actually believe that the only honest, knowledgeable and correct position when it comes to halacha are the views of some bachelor sitting in his underwear in his mother's basement. I think that most psychiatrists would be prepared to give you a preliminary diagnosis just on these facts alone.

[Shmarya]

Your dishonesty apparently knows no bounds. Rabbi Neuwirth in fact has the opposite reputation and in fact his first edition of Shemiras Shabbos was heavily criticized for citing the lenient view (that of his rabbi, Rabbi Auerbach) while not also noting that there are more stringent views.

Idiot.

What I wrote was that Rabbi Neuwirth has a reputation of pushing RABBI AUERBACH's views to the right.

What you just wrote provides some motivation for that reputation.

You seem to have a habit of disagreeing with the views of the vast majority of experts in halacha. And not only do you disagree with them, you seem to have an inability to acknowledge that an opposing view may be rational so you label everyone else as being dishonest, ignorant or mistaken and seem to have disillusioned yourself into thinking that people will actually believe that the only honest, knowledgeable and correct position when it comes to halacha are the views of some bachelor sitting in his underwear in his mother's basement. I think that most psychiatrists would be prepared to give you a preliminary diagnosis just on these facts alone.

Again, you are either wholly dishonest or an idiot (or, more likely, both).

What I said several times is that a handful of rabbis – some liars, some mistaken, and some ignorant – forced the issue and pushed the ban on Shabbat use of electricity.

I pointed out that one of those rabbis was the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn.

I also pointed out one of those rabbis was a failed engineer, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, his son-in-law and successor – and your rebbe.

Now why not haul your shiny-seated pants and your ignorant lies out of here.

[tsvika55]

Shmarya,
Ouch, sounds like the "bachelor sitting in his underwear in his mother's basement" line struck a cord... aren't u're supposed to be the fan of saying it like it is?

[Shmarya]

Ouch, sounds like the "bachelor sitting in his underwear in his mother's basement" line struck a cord... aren't u're supposed to be the fan of saying it like it is?

SM has long history of misrepresenting my words and of lying.

Past that, he's a Class A jerk.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Yeah, I married a shiksa, boychik. Two of 'em, in fact. (One unfortunately died very young.)

As we say in New Jersey, gotta problem with that?

I have a litmus test for shmucks:

One such test is those who adamantly criticize building a mosque in lower Manhattan; the 9/11 tragedy was caused by subhumans who perverted Islam, just as this blog is inhabited by Untermenschen who pervert Judaism.

The second litmus test is those Jewish hypocrites who believe in the Nuremberg Laws, as you obviously do.

You've passed the second test; in fact, you aced it.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Here's a fatwa from Rav Apikoros:

Since electricity isn't fire, it's perfectly OK to drive a Chevy Volt on Shabbos, as long as you don't engage the gasoline engine (drive more than 43 miles on the fully-charged battery).

Ditto for a Fisker and a Tesla.

[IH]

For those interested, see אוצר ישראל entry for טליגרף which is online at:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=2594&st=&pgnum=31

[IH]

[cont] the bit regarding Shabbat is on the 2nd page of the entry:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=2594&st=&pgnum=32

[Successful Messiah]

"Past that, he's a Class A jerk."

But of course, anyone who points out Scotty's lack of knowledge and warped sense of logic is, in Scotty's book, a Class A jerk.