Statement of Principles on the Place of Jews with a Homosexual Orientation in Our Community

For the past 6 months, a number of Modern Orthodox rabbis and educators prepared a statement of principles on homosexuality. The statement of principles is now public as are the names of the rabbis and educators who have, so far, signed it. Whose names are missing?

Missing as of today are Rabbis Hershel Schachter, Mordechai Willig, Moshe Dovid Tendler, and J. David Bleich – in other words, the leading poskim of Yeshiva University and YU's medical ethics experts.

The statement they have not managed to sign does not in any way change or even challenge halakha. All it does is require all people to be treated with respect:

For the last six months a number of Orthodox rabbis and educators have been preparing a statement of principles on the place of our brothers and sisters in our community who have a homosexual orientation.

The original draft was prepared by Rabbi Nathaniel Helfgot. It was then commented upon by and revised based on the input from dozens of talmidei chachamim, educators, communal rabbis, mental health professionals and a number of individuals in our community who are homosexual in orientation.

Significant revisions were made based upon the input of Rabbi Aryeh Klapper and Rabbi Yitzchak Blau who were intimately involved in the process of editing and improving the document during the last three months.

The statement below is a consensus document arrived at after hundreds of hours of discussion,debate and editing. At the bottom, is the initial cohort of signators.

If you are an Orthodox rabbi, educator, or mental health professional and would like to add your signature to the current list, please send a short e-mail to:
statementnya@hotmail.com with your name, address, cell phone number, and professional affiliation.


Statement of Principles on the Place of Jews with a
Homosexual Orientation in Our Community

We, the undersigned Orthodox rabbis, rashei yeshiva, ramim, Jewish educators and communal leaders affirm the following principles with regard to the place of Jews with a homosexual orientation in our community:

1. All human beings are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect (kevod haberiyot). Every Jew is obligated to fulfill the entire range of mitzvot between person and person in relation to persons who are homosexual or have feelings of same sex attraction. Embarrassing, harassing or demeaning someone with a homosexual orientation or same-sex attraction is a violation of Torah prohibitions that embody the deepest values of Judaism.

2. The question of whether sexual orientation is primarily genetic, or rather environmentally generated, is irrelevant to our obligation to treat human beings with same-sex attractions and orientations with dignity and respect.

3. Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression. The sensitivity and understanding we properly express for human beings with other sexual orientations does not diminish our commitment to that principle.

4. Halakhic Judaism views all male and female same-sex sexual interactions as prohibited. The question of whether sexual orientation is primarily genetic, or rather environmentally generated, is irrelevant to this prohibition. While halakha categorizes various homosexual acts with different degrees of severity and opprobrium, including toeivah, this does not in any way imply that lesser acts are permitted. But it is critical to emphasize that halakha only prohibits homosexual acts; it does not prohibit orientation or feelings of same-sex attraction, and nothing in the Torah devalues the human beings who struggle with them. (We do not here address the issue of hirhurei aveirah, a halakhic category that goes beyond mere feelings and applies to all forms of sexuality and requires precise halakhic definition.)

5. Whatever the origin or cause of homosexual orientation, many individuals believe that for most people this orientation cannot be changed. Others believe that for most people it is a matter of free will. Similarly, while some mental health professionals and rabbis in the community strongly believe in the efficacy of “change therapies”, most of the mental health community, many rabbis, and most people with a homosexual orientation feel that some of these therapies are either ineffective or potentially damaging psychologically for many patients.

We affirm the religious right of those with a homosexual orientation to reject
therapeutic approaches they reasonably see as useless or dangerous.

6. Jews with a homosexual orientation who live in the Orthodox community confront serious emotional, communal and psychological challenges that cause them and their families great pain and suffering. For example, homosexual orientation may greatly increase the risk of suicide among teenagers in our community. Rabbis and communities need to be sensitive and empathetic to that reality. Rabbis and mental health professionals must provide responsible and ethical assistance to congregants and clients dealing with those human challenges.

7. Jews struggling to live their lives in accordance with halakhic values need and deserve our support. Accordingly, we believe that the decision as to whether to be open about one's sexual orientation should be left to such individuals, who should consider their own needs and those of the community. We are opposed on ethical and moral grounds to both the “outing” of individuals who want to remain private and to coercing those who desire to be open about their orientation to keep it hidden.

8. Accordingly, Jews with homosexual orientations or same sex-attractions should be welcomed as full members of the synagogue and school community. As appropriate with regard to gender and lineage, they should participate and count ritually, be eligible for ritual synagogue honors, and generally be treated in the same fashion and under the same halakhic and hashkafic framework as any other member of the synagogue they join. Conversely, they must accept and fulfill all the responsibilities of such membership, including those generated by communal norms or broad Jewish principles that go beyond formal halakhah.

We do not here address what synagogues should do about accepting members
who are openly practicing homosexuals and/or living with a same-sex partner.
Each synagogue together with its rabbi must establish its own standard with
regard to membership for open violators of halakha.
Those standards should be applied fairly and objectively.


9. Halakha articulates very exacting criteria and standards of eligibility for particular religious offices, such as officially appointed cantor during the year or baal tefillah on the High Holidays. Among the most important of those criteria is that the entire congregation must be fully comfortable with having that person serve as its representative. This legitimately prevents even the most admirable individuals, who are otherwise perfectly fit halakhically, from serving in those roles. It is the responsibility of the lay and rabbinic leadership in each individual community to determine eligibility for those offices in line with those principles, the importance of maintaining communal harmony, and the unique context of its community culture.

10. Jews with a homosexual orientation or same sex attraction, even if they engage in same sex interactions, should be encouraged to fulfill mitzvot to the best of their ability. All Jews are challenged to fulfill mitzvot to the best of their ability, and the attitude of “all or nothing” was not the traditional approach adopted by the majority of halakhic thinkers and poskim throughout the ages.

11. Halakhic Judaism cannot give its blessing and imprimatur to Jewish religious
same-sex commitment ceremonies and weddings, and halakhic values proscribe individuals and communities from encouraging practices that grant religious legitimacy to gay marriage and couplehood. But communities should display sensitivity, acceptance and full embrace of the adopted or biological children of homosexually active Jews in the synagogue and school setting, and we encourage parents and family of homosexually partnered Jews to make every effort to maintain harmonious family relations and connections.

12. Jews who have an exclusively homosexual orientation should, under most circumstances, not be encouraged to marry someone of the other gender, as
this can lead to great tragedy, unrequited love, shame, dishonesty and ruined
lives. They should be directed to contribute to Jewish and general society in
other meaningful ways. Any such person who is planning to marry someone of
the opposite gender is halakhically and ethically required to fully inform their
potential spouse of their sexual orientation.


We hope and pray that by sharing these thoughts we will help the Orthodox
community to fully live out its commitment to the principles and values of
Torah and Halakha as practiced and cherished by the children of Abraham, who
our sages teach us are recognized by the qualities of being rahamanim
(merciful), bayshanim (modest), and gomelei hasadim
engaging in acts of loving-kindness).



(as of 7/25/10)
Rabbi Yosef Adler
Rabbi Joshua Amaru
Rabbi Elisha Anscelovits
Rabbi Hayyim Angel
Rabbi Marc Angel
Rabbi Maurice Appelbaum
Mrs. Nechama Goldman Barash
Rabbi Avi Baumol
Rabbi Benjamin Berger
Rabbi Dr. Shalom Berger
Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman
Rabbi Todd Berman
Rabbi Yonah Berman
Dr. David Bernstein
Rabbi David Bigman
Rabbi Yitzchak Blau
Rabbi Nasanayl Braun
Dr. Erica Brown
Rabbi Yuval Cherlow
Dr. Aubie Diamond
Ms. Yael Diamond
Rabbi Mark Dratch
Rabbi Ira Ebbin
Rabbi Rafi Eis
Mrs. Atara Eis
Mrts. Elan Sober Elzufon
Rabbi Yitzhak Etshalom
Rabbi Dr. Shaul (Seth) Farber
Ms. Rachel Feingold
Rabbi Yoel Finkelman
Rabbi Jeffrey Fox
Rabbi Aaron Frank
Rabbi Aharon Frazier
Rabbi Avidan Freedman
Rabbi Shmuel Goldin
Rabbi Mark Gottlieb
Rabbi Barry Gelman
Rabbi Uri Goldstein
Rabbi Benjamin Greenberg
Rabbi Zvi Grumet
Rabbi Alan Haber
Dr. Aviad Hacohen
Rabbi Tully Harcsztark
Rabbi Nathaniel Helfgot
Rabbi Josh Hess
Dr. Daniel Kahn
Rabbi Yosef Kanefsky
Rabbi Jay Kellman
Rabbi Aryeh Klapper
Mrs. Judy Klitsner
Rabbi Shmuel Klitsner
Rabbi Jeff Kobrin
Dr. Aaron Koller
Rabbi Barry Kornblau
Dr. Meesh Hammer Kossoy
Rabbi Binny Krauss
Mrs. Esther Krauss
Rabbi Dr. Benny Lau
Rabbi Zvi Leshem
Rabbi Daniel Levitt
Rabbi Norman Linzer
Rabbi Dr. Martin Lockshin
Rabbi Dr. Haskel Lookstein
Rabbi Asher Lopatin
Rabbi Chaim Marder
Rabbi Joshua Maroof
Rabbi Dr. Adam Mintz
Rabbi Jonathan Morgenstern
Rabbi Dr. Yaacov Nagen (Genack)
Mrs. C.B. Neugroschl
Rabbi Yossi Pollak
Dr. Caroline Pyser
Rabbi Daniel Reifman
Rabbi Avi Robinson
Rabbi Chaim Sacknovitz
Rabbi Noam Shapiro
Rabbi Yehuda Seif
Rabbi Murray Schaum
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger
Rabbi Adam Schier
Ms. Lisa Schlaff
Rabbi Yehuda Septimus
Rabbi Yair Silverman
Rabbi Jeremy Stavitsky
Rabbi Adam Starr
Rabbi Chaim Strauchler
Rabbi Yehuda Sussman
Rabbi Joel Tessler
Rabbi Mordechai Torczyner
Rabbi Jacob Traub
Rabbi Zach Truboff
Mrs. Dara Unterberg
Rabbi Michael Unterberg
Rabbi Dr. Avie Walfish
Dr. Dina Weiner
Rabbi Ezra Weiner
Ms. Sara Weinerman
Rabbi David Wolkenfeld
Rabbi Elie Weinstock
Rabbi Shmuly Yanklowitz
Rabbi Alan Yuter
Rabbi Josh Yuter
Dr. Yael Ziegler
Rabbi Dr. Stuart Zweiter

This is a weak statement that does almost nothing positive for gays. Worse yet, it specifically rejects the notion that scientific proof of a gay gene would impact halakha in any way, a contention I believe is false.

Yet even this weak, ineffectual statement of principles is controversial in a Modern Orthodoxy controlled by right wing thugs.

Comments

[itchiemayer]

How is it a weak statement? They can't say being an active homosexual is acceptable behavior. This isn't the Supreme Court of the United States, this is a conservative, religious body (mostly the left wing of that body). I am ok with the majority of the document, but am uncomfortable with a few statements it makes. Relative to the fact that the Torah calls homosexuality an abomination, I think it can be considered a very bold statement.

[SJ]

>> Jews who have an exclusively homosexual orientation should, under most circumstances, not be encouraged to marry someone of the other gender, as this can lead to great tragedy, unrequited love, shame, dishonesty and ruined lives. They should be directed to contribute to Jewish and general society in other meaningful ways. Any such person who is planning to marry someone of the opposite gender is halakhically and ethically required to fully inform their potential spouse of their sexual orientation.

The biblical directive is against homosexuality and to reproduce. I don't see how a religious community can outright contradict that. On what halachic source does peru urevu stop with gays? (Peru urevu on their own, not by taking straight kids and making them gay too.)

[NIRC Guy]

Whether or not this statement is acurate according to Jewish principals, it ruins the argument against it when unsubstantiated claims like "taking straight kids and making them gay too" are made.
These people live in incredible tzar and it is hard to judge them. To get up and say its a lifestyle that the torah condones, we can't do. And those that do that are outside of the torah and mesorah, Like Steven Greenberg.
By the way, R' Shmarya, I am interested to know how you think genetics will make a difference in the halacha of of homosexuality.

[SJ]

>> Whether or not this statement is acurate according to Jewish principals, it ruins the argument against it when unsubstantiated claims like "taking straight kids and making them gay too" are made.

Unsubstantiated? Really? How else then do gays reproduce? O.o You tell me.

[chaim]

shamarya - so how do you think an affirmation of the genetic origin of homosexuality should affect halacha? If you have insight please share, as I find this subject extremely difficult. as i have understood it, the halacha concerns particular actions: anal sex and the wasting of seed, not, as this document maintains, internal inclinations. in this sense, it is deeply unfair to homosexuals and I have yet to see a resolution that actually contends with the halachic sources rather than simply dismissing them or setting them aside in consideration of issues of pikuach nefesh. but the pikuach nefesh argument:

a) depends on a definition of pikuach nefesh that extends beyond immediate threats and also includes psychic trauma (which seems, to me, plausible, but I think may not be a given?)

b)only covers sexual activity that does not involve anal penetration b/c this would fall under the rubric of one of those prohibitions for which one must die rather than transgress anyway

i am certainly not an expert at all, but this is my understanding of the limit of the law itself.... which, of course, does not mean that individual choices must be respected..... but if you know more then teach.

[P]

This is a statement put out by the lefties, bleeding heart liberals of the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy.

R. Nathaniel Helfgott, who is behind it, is a big player at the left-wing 'Yeshivat Chovevei Torah' of R. Avi Weiss, of Rabba Sara Horowitz fame.

You state that "Missing as of today are Rabbis Hershel Schachter, Mordechai Willig, Moshe Dovid Tendler, and J. David Bleich – in other words, the leading poskim of Yeshiva University and YU's medical ethics experts."

Actually, missing is just about any name from RIETS, not just the four leading lights you mentioned.

This is yet another indication of what happens when MO people hang out too much with liberals and get overly influenced by them.

Kudos to RIETS for standing firm and rejecting this abomination. A chazer masquerading as kosher, stretching out split hooves, is still chazer treif, and so is this statement.

[Dave]

Itchie and P, agree with you both 100%, even though I am not Orthodox.

[NormalJew]

HASID =
Homosexual
Adult
Sadist
In
Disguise

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

More compassionate than the Freelance Keiruv Maniac Rabbi Dovid Kornreich, who called on gay people to commit suicide.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/05/haredi-kiruv-rabbi-advocates-suicide-for-homosexuals.html

What is interesting is that haredi people get outraged about consensual sex between adult males but if an adult male has sex with a child he becomes a hero and the people complain about it get chased out of town.

[Radical Feminist]

Yet another reason why I am Reform and wont give a dime to an Orthodox Synogogue. I don't fund organizations that nedigrate people based on gender. So that means I will just take my business elsewhere.

[Bartley Kulp]

How would finding scientific proof of a gay gene impact halacha? I do not understand that logic.

People have also sorts of genetic dispositions for lots of behaviors. Some of them criminal. G-d created each individual and is ultimately the only one who can judge individuals. This shouldn't change halacha or civil law for that matter.

It would be good if they could isolate the gay gene (provided one exists). In the future it might open solid medical therapeutic options previously unavailable.

[Aharon Varady]

P is for prejudice?

[Friar Yid]

Unsubstantiated? Really? How else then do gays reproduce? O.o You tell me.

AFAIK, there is no demonstrable link between your parents' sexuality and your own. Just ask any gay person with straight parents.

[Bartley Kulp]

I also forgot to mention that I do not see how the halacha would change in the context of how we should treat such individuals should hereditary disposition be proven.

I would also like to add that such proof would not necessarily apply to all people with homosexual tendencies. It also might not limit the presence of co-environmental factors even with people possessing such a gene.

We will not know any of these things for a long time.

[Bartley Kulp]

Sorry, I am yakking on and on. It does at least reaffirm the right for these individuals not to be coerced into trying the latest unproven stupid therapies being advertised by the 700 club.

[Michael]

The statement came out late last week, and has not yet been widely circulated and presented to many rabbis.

If you support the stance taken in the statement and wish to help in spreading it and organizing a response to it, please join the group "Orthodox Jews Against Homophobia" and help spread the word: http://www.facebook.com/?tid=1373467014779&sk=messages#!/group.php?gid=105176256204275

[Dave]

Radical Feminist, I used to attend a Reform synagogue. Now I attend a Modern Orthodox synagogue. Check one out.
They're a lot kindler and gentler than they used to be, without of course compromising on halacha.

[Isa]

Figure this out

Men can be attracted to other men
OR
They can be attracted to both men AND women
THEN
Men can think of themselves as a woman and be attracted to:
men
women
Both

Soo

There are two things going on.

What you think of yourself as; man or woman
AND
What one is attracted to.

Environment or 'born' with it
Answer: BOTH or a mixture of the two.

Possibility of real change or orientation ?
no way

[Dave]

Isa, I think there is a possibility of resisting one's urges, whether genetically originated or environmentally originated.
But society says, it's o.k., only control yourself from doing illegal acts, not immoral acts, because there's no such thing is morality.

[Shmarya]

I think there is a possibility of resisting one's urges, whether genetically originated or environmentally originated.
But society says, it's o.k., only control yourself from doing illegal acts, not immoral acts, because there's no such thing is morality.

Please.

You specifically reject many things the Torah says. Yet you selectively pick and choose.

You hate gays and therefore you insist society is wrong for not following the Torah's 'morality.'

But you do not keep other halakhot, because keeping them in inconvenient for you.

Society doesn't say there is no morality.

What society says is that we will only legislate against acts that hurt people.

And time and again, society makes it clear that it dislikes hypocrites – meaning society would dislike you.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Having a gay orientation is not against halacha. Male anal sex is. The torah is silent on lesbianism.

[Simon]

I'm shomer mitzvot and I'm also gay.

This is a good step in the right direction but it still makes orthogays 2nd-class citizens--if at all.

I don't understand why people won't have the same attitude to this as they do to nidah. Some things are just between a man and a woman. Some things are just between two men or two women and it's no one else's business.

Telling me that the halakhic ideal is heterosexual marriage is not going to make me want to get married. As far as I'm concerned it's a statement that doesn't even concern me at all. So, I have a boyfriend, and, it's not the ideal, nu? It's all I've got. What do you want me to do, be single for the rest of my life? You try that.

This BS comment about controlling urges just demonstrates ignorance of what sexuality is.

"Each synagogue together with its rabbi must establish its own standard with
regard to membership for open violators of halakha."
This is insulting. There is no need to say "open violators of halakhah" (even if it is true, it is not the right thing to say in this context).

I also don't like the tone that being gay is nothing but a "struggle" against "emotional, communal and psychological challenges" deserving of "support." It's true there are many in that situation (closeted or in denial), but a lot of us are lucky enough to live happy and full lives imbued with Torah and respect for our fellow beings.

[Tam]

If even one act of homosexuality was borne from this statement then the entire line of signatories may rot in hell for their part in it.

This is my understanding to the missing signatures of Rabbis Hershel Schachter, Mordechai Willig, Moshe Dovid Tendler, and J. David Bleic.

Simple: We don’t play with fire - mess around with G-D’s Torah and particularly the three cardinal sins.

[Abracadabra]

Simon,

You are very fortunate that you can balance both your sexual orientation and being a shomer mitzvot. My understanding is that many frum gays and lesbians "go off the derech" not because they want to, but because they can find no place of acceptance to be both frum and gay (or rather frum and not-closeted-gay).

I would be very interested to know what community you live in, and what shul you daven in, not because I am challenging you, or being a "yenta" but simply because it is news to me that there are Orthodox shuls and Orthodox communities which accept gays and where a gay person can be both frum and openly gay (i.e., living with a partner).

I would like to add that I think the above letter is a step in the right direction. Change comes slowly, especially change that is so radically different than the status quo when it comes to fundamental and strong religious beliefs. The YU forum last year was the FIRST PUBLIC FORUM in the Orthodox world where homosexuality was openly discussed in a compassionate way without severe judgment and verbal attacks (within the forum at least). The above letter is another step, and hopefully the pace will quicken towards more acceptance in the future.

I doubt there will ever be Orthodox Halachic changes, even if science finds a "homosexual gene" (which is an oversimplification of genetics, but that's another story). But I think there can be openness and acceptance to Orthodox gays living openly with a gay partner in Orthodox communities. And I hope for the sake of those gays and lesbians who want to stay in the frum community, that widespread acceptance comes sooner rather than later.

[Abracadabra]

...We don’t play with fire - mess around with G-D’s Torah...

Tam -

What about the Aseres Hadibros? Don't steal. Why do rabbis mess around with that? Last I checked that was also in "G-d's Torah" plain and clear.

What about judging fairly, and not taking bribes? That's also in "G-d's Torah".

According to your determination of who rots in hell, it will be fully occupied with many elite members of the current Orthodox Rabbinate.

[Shmarya]

We don’t play with fire - mess around with G-D’s Torah and particularly the three cardinal sins.

Homosexuality is NOT one of the three cardinal sins. Incest is.

Past that, your rabbis seem perfectly willing to "mess around" with people they don't like.

For example, see Rabbi Willig's horrific behavior in the Lanner case, his public belittlement of Lanner's victims, his completely anti-halakhic handling of the beit din, and his nearly ten year track record since of doing NOTHING to help sex abuse victims.

And all these rabbis you look up to would rather cause the suicide of or murder of homosexuals than they would be mentchen.

[Jeff]

Now I attend a Modern Orthodox synagogue. Check one out.
They're a lot kindler and gentler than they used to be, without of course compromising on halacha.

Dave, if you agree with P, and consider yourself representative of the sort of person to be found at the "kinder and gentler" MO shuls of today - count me out.

[Jeff]

The statements being made here by frum people are distressingly reminiscent of those made by their evangelical counterparts. Shmarya is correct; everyone picks and chooses. An evangelical pastor can embezzles or have a heterosexual affair, and his sycophants will line up to defend him. Of course, let him come out as a gay person, and they go insane.

Shmarya, I agree that his document doesn't go far enough, but what else can they do, within the confines of an Orthodoxy hijacked, as you say, by right wing thugs? I think it's a positive sign they're trying to be compassionate at all.

They're stuck. Loathe as I am to agree with some of the commenters above, I can't see how genetic evidence would change halachah (or, more precisely, their interpretation of it). They're going to continue to believe what they believe. I can't see that it profits gay people in any way to remain, even nominally, within Orthodoxy. They'll always be second-class citizens. Steve Greenberg, whom I've met and like enormously, has tried to reinterpret halachah, but I don't think anyone is really listening. I don't know that it can be done. The Torah's pretty clear - it's an abomination. You either accept it, or reject it and move on. I reject it. I don't think the Torah is the word of God, I don't think it was divinely inspired and I certainly don't think Chazal were infallible.

It's best for Orthodox people who are gay to just get out. Become Conservadox. Form your own minyanim. I have to see this clinging to Orthodoxy - "it's all emes and TMS except for the one part that affects me adversely" - as attachment and rationalization. Ultimately, it doesn't help them.

[Tam]

Homosexuality is NOT one of the three cardinal sins. Incest is.

Shmarya,

Are you that big an Am Haórets? The three cardinal sins are Gilui Arayois, Shfichas Damim, and Avoda Zora. Gilui Arayos incorporates homosexuality as well as incest.

The pervasive silence on the issue of sex abuse IS very troubling! Notwithstanding, to be proactive with a statement that may be misinterpreted, lend a hand to a violation of a cardinal sin, and which could theoretically open the door to far worse statements, is equally if not more troubling.

And all these rabbis you look up to would rather cause the suicide of or murder of homosexuals than they would be mentchen.

That’s your projection. Not the reality!

[Tam]

Homosexuality is NOT one of the three cardinal sins. Incest is.

Shmarya,

Are you that big an Am Haórets? The three cardinal sins are Gilui Arayois, Shfichas Damim, and Avoda Zora. Gilui Arayos incorporates homosexuality as well as incest.

The pervasive silence on the issue of sex abuse IS very troubling! Notwithstanding, to be proactive with a statement that may be misinterpreted, lend a hand to a violation of a cardinal sin, and which could theoretically open the door to far worse statements, is equally if not more troubling.

And all these rabbis you look up to would rather cause the suicide of or murder of homosexuals than they would be mentchen.

That’s your projection. Not the reality!

[Shmarya]

Are you that big an Am Haórets? The three cardinal sins are Gilui Arayois, Shfichas Damim, and Avoda Zora. Gilui Arayos incorporates homosexuality as well as incest.

Please.

The original 'cardinal' sin was to stop you from sleeping with your mother or sister to save your life.

It does NOT extend to homosexuality and it most certainly does not extend to oral sex between two men.

But, like your rabbis, subtlety, nuance and simple common sense are lacking in your life.

[Tam]

The original 'cardinal' sin was to stop you from sleeping with your mother or sister to save your life.

It does NOT extend to homosexuality and it most certainly does not extend to oral sex between two men

I didn't realize you were a part of the Maskilim movement - standing in opposition to the Mishna, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch etc... - to define the Torah according to what makes "simple common sense" to you. In that case, I'm wasting my time arguing with you.

[Abramovits]

How easy it is for people who are not tempted by same sex attraction to levy judgement on those who are!

While one must say that the Torah forbids certain behaviors, and that even some of them are יהרג ואל יעבור the medical/psychiatric community recognizes that sexual orientation is inborn or at least acquired at such an early age as to be immutable.

Did it ever occur to anyone that if same sex activities are "disgusting" to you that heterosexual activities are equally as disgusting to a gay person? Can't you see that requiring him to marry a person of the opposite sex is a one way ticket to a miserable life for both him and his spouse and their children? (Just because someone has a same sex attraction does not mean that his anatomy will not function in other situations.)

I applaud the rabbis who have made this statement. Within the bounds of normative halacha I do not see how they could be any more openminded.

[Shmarya]

I didn't realize you were a part of the Maskilim movement - standing in opposition to the Mishna, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch etc

Please.

You MIGHT be able to make a case for male on male anal sex, but you certainly cannot make the case for the far more common homosexual sexual acts.

Feel free to cite any primary sources you might have for the former.

[Dave]

Shmarya,
You do not even know me, and yet you make all kinds of insulting, rude, and hurtful comments about me.
Every one picks and chooses from among the mitzvot, from the most Reform person to the most Orthodox person. I admit that I pick and choose. I believe that some mitzvot are more important than others.
You can be very happy, Shmarya, because I will not ever make any comment on this blog again. You can congratulate yourself on your political correctness. Good for you, you have silenced me. You can add it to your list. I hope you're happy.

[Shmarya]

Didn't we have this argument a few months ago? Or was that someone else?

[Tam]

Feel free to cite any primary sources you might have for the former.

By each and every one of the arayius (forbidden sexual relationships) mentioned, the Torah states, "Lo Tikrovu - do not get (even) close". Termed in shulchan aruch, Rambam, Rishonim and other Poskim as "Abizraihu D'araias" or derech chibuk v'nishuk". ALL FORBIDDEN!

The slightest inappropriate motion is absolutely forbidden!!!

You really are an am h'orets. nu nu!

[Shmarya]

Please cite any primary source that counts male on male oral sex as a sin one must die for rather than commit.

Then do the same for male on male anal sex.

[Tam]

While you agree that certain acts of homosexuality one must die for and others are not punishable by death but are just as sickening - "toaiva", you do not agree that such a statement above may lend a hand to or give a false sense of freedom for such acts - mesayai'a ldvar avaira.

Apparently, Rabbis Hershel Schachter, Mordechai Willig, Moshe Dovid Tendler, and J. David Bleich belive otherwise. So do I. Now, let's stop arguing over semantics.

[Shmarya]

While you agree that certain acts of homosexuality one must die for and others are not punishable by death but are just as sickening

Nowhere does halakha say that Jews must consider homosexuality "sickening."

Do you consider eating shrimp "sickening"? It is also a toevah.

Past that, cite your sources as I asked you to above or go away.

[Jeff]

Tam, you and harold are perfect examples of why I am not religious. I would rather spend eternity in gehinnom than in heaven with the likes of you. Frum people, evangelicals and Islamic fundamentalists are the worst people in the world. You sicken me. You should be isolated in your hate-filled, xenophobic enclaves and forbidden to breed until you and your foul belief systems exit the stage of history once and for all. Only then, perhaps, would humanity have a fighting chance.

[Tam]

Jeff,

My own personal feelings are irrelevant to this argument. In actuality I have no hatred to anyone or any kind of sexual orientations. This was an intellectual argument as to why certain Rabbis reframed from signing the above statement.

My personal belief is to love all humans and Jews alike. Notwithstanding, we have a Torah that commands a way of living life, and which also explicitly categories certain sins as being disgusting – “Toiava” - despite our own personal sets of feelings. Part of the problem with homosexuals (many minorities) is their knee jerk reactions to anything that remotely sounds insulting to their ideologies. As I said to Shmarya, “That’s your projection. Not the reality!”

I am also perplexed about what G-D did to you that you say, “Tam, you and harold are perfect examples of why I am not religious etc...” Why to turn astray from G-D because distasteful (to you) individuals practice the same religion. I don’t get the logic of such thinking. Sounds like a poor excuse for other deeper motives. Take a deep breath. Relax dude.

[Jeff - Not the same one]

And round and round we go while people's lives are made into hell in service of the fiction of a god that writes books and supposedly gives two shits about who loves who. But doesn't get involved in holocausts. Too busy for that. When will you people realize that 21st century life cannot be run by Iron Age morality?

[Jewish Cynic]

Jeff, I thought you gave the reason you're not ortho when you wrote:
"I don't think the Torah is the word of God, I don't think it was divinely inspired and I certainly don't think Chazal were infallible."

If you don't believe those things then you are not ortho by definition - that's fine but this is about how those who do believe the Torah is the word of God deal with homosexuality.
As much sympathy as I have for Simon, he might be better off taking Jeff's advice and not try to find acceptance as an openly, actively gay ortho.

I think the rabbis statement was well done. It strongly states gays must be accepted the same as other jews. But according to ortho gay activity is a sin (what activity and how big a sin I'll leave to the rabbis).
Ortho can be ok with someone who commits sins as long as they understand it is against the torah and they should strive to avoid it - everyone is a sinner.
But ortho cannot accept someone flaunting sinful activity.
Ortho cannot honor someone who says I'm ortho except I love cheeseburgers.
Perhaps a better example is an ortho person who falls in love with a non-jew.
The person is still a jew but the marriage can never be condoned.
Yes, banning the sexual activity a person is born to gravitate to is very tough for that person but ortho halacha severely restricts hetero sexual activity too.

I think this is a good step by MO.
Sure beats what Agudah would say - probably something like this:
"We have no problem with gay haredim - there are no gay haredim".
(Tip of the hat to Mr. Ahmadinejad)

[Jeff]

@Jewish cynic: Jeff, I thought you gave the reason you're not ortho when you wrote:
"I don't think the Torah is the word of God, I don't think it was divinely inspired and I certainly don't think Chazal were infallible."

Yes, that's correct, although my reasons are more comprehensive. I'm actually an atheist. What I wrote to Tam, I wrote in anger - although I meant every word. I typed it quickly and it wasn't even semantically correct.

I can't abide petty, morally and intellectually deficient, mean-spirited assholes who destroy people's lives in the name of religion - "As long as I get the existential security blanket, that's all that matters. The rest of humanity can [literally and figuratively] go to hell!" They are the worst people in the world.

As I said to Shmarya earlier, I do think these MO rabbis are doing the best they can within the parameters of their belief system - but I don't really respect that system, although they aren't, generally speaking, quite as bad as evangelicals and Haredim (there are exceptions; the Right Wing Modern Orthodox can be bastards). Yes, I think gay people are far better off outside of Orthodoxy (I think everyone is, but their need is more immediate). They aren't doing themselves any favors.

As I also mentioned, I think it's somewhat disingenuous - "I believe in Torah m'Sinai, except as it pertains to this one issue" - but I don't like to bust their chops over it. They get enough grief from the True Believers; they don't need it from me as well. I'm a God-cursed apikoros who's going to gehinnom, but, on the way there, I don't need to kick people when they're down.

In the end, it isn't my call. I'm not part of the franchise; I don't get to say who gets to use the label.

[Jeff]

@Tam: This was an intellectual argument as to why certain Rabbis reframed from signing the above statement.

There is nothing "intellectual" about this, in any sense. This is about the threat you perceive to your snug, cozy little world view.

My personal belief is to love all humans and Jews alike.

Please. You're an abortion of a human being: If even one act of homosexuality was borne from this statement then the entire line of signatories may rot in hell for their part in it.

The only solace I experience lies in the knowledge that your entire subculture is imploding. It can't happen quickly enough to suit me.

Don't worry, Tam and Harold. When we're all roasting in the fires of Gehinnom, and you're safe in Gan Eden - I'm sure HaShem will let you watch. I've no doubt that will afford you a great deal of pleasure.

[harold]

How sad:

Chinese travel guide dubs Tel Aviv 'gay paradise'

Hong Kong, Taiwan residents can now purchase travel guide for gay tourists devoted entirely to Israeli city

Boaz Arad Published: 07.26.10, 15:40 / Israel Travel

BEIJING – Masses of gay tourists from Taiwan and Hong Kong are slated to visit Israel soon thanks to a new Chinese travel guide which highly recommends visiting Tel Aviv - a "paradise for members of the gay and lesbian community," according to the book.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3922483,00.html

[Jeff]

Don't be sad, Harold. Think of all the clandestine hook-ups your Haredi friends will be able to have, now.

[Tam]

Jeff:

You're an abortion of a human being etc…The only solace I experience lies in the knowledge that your entire subculture is imploding. It can't happen quickly enough to suit me.

Not sure who’s the mean spirited one here. As far as a subculture imploding, kindly see the bible 6:12:

“And G-D saw the land that every single creature had destroyed his ways….and he wiped out all living (with the great flood)”. Talmud Sanhedrin: destroyed their sexual ways (homosexual, beastiology) that even the animals were influenced etc… he wiped them out – forever - so that they have no portion in the world to come and they will not arise from the dead when the messiah comes.

“If even one act of homosexuality was borne from this statement the entire line of signatories may rot in hell for their part in it.” Point being plain and simple that: they’re not willing to risk eternal hell for their souls as the above verses testify to.

There is nothing mean spirited in facing the intellectual truth; and there is always repentance for even the worst sinners. May G-D have mercy and open your blinded eyes.

[Jeff]

Imbecile.

[Dovid]

Nice to see things devolving into name-calling. To a commenter from several days ago, the Zohar mentions a world full of lesbians.

[rick]

A Statement of Principles
We the undersigned Orthodox Rabbis, Roshei Yeshiva, Jewish Educators and Communal leaders affirm the following principles with regard to the place of Jews with an orientation towards sexual relations with married women (who are not their wives), bestiality (whether mammals or reptiles), and incest (whether father-daughter, mother-son, Brother-sister, or any of the other halachic categories known as “arayot” ).

Halacha sees heterosexual marriage (i.e. man and woman, or as they are affectionately referred to by some in the so called gay community, “breeders”), as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression. The sensitivity and understanding we have towards those involved in adulterous relationships or towards those who have an irresistible crush on a family member or a family pet does not diminish our commitment to that principle.

Whatever the cause or origin of sexual attraction to animals, family members
or other people’s wives, many individuals believe that for most people these types of orientations cannot be changed. Others believe that for most people it is a matter of free will. We affirm the religious right of those with tendencies to violate prohibited sexual relationships to reject therapeutic approaches they reasonably see as useless or dangerous.
Just so there is no misunderstanding: This of course applies to people dealing with any type of problem in their lives. It is not just sexual deviants who have the right to reject therapy that is useless or dangerous ($150/hour is a bit pricey when the product is useless or dangerous).

We believe that the decision as to whether to be open about the fact that you are cohabiting with members of your immediate family, having an affair with a German Shepherd, etc. should be left to such individuals. Accordingly, Jews who are oriented towards arayot should be welcomed as full members of the synagogue and school community. This also includes any mamzerim who are the result of those unions.
Actually in keeping with our enlightened approach, we encourage safe-sex education for those involved in these relationships. We all know the terrible stigma attached to mamzerim, and it would be inconsiderate and inconsistent with the halachic principle of “kavod habriyot” to bring one into the world. We also feel that it would be best not to bring one’s animal partner into the synagogue because of the halachic problems involved in saying shemoneh esrei and krias shma in front of animal droppings.

Halachic Judaism cannot give its blessing to arayot commitment ceremonies, and halachic values forbid us to encourage in any way (arguably under the category of yehareg v’al yavor) practices that grant legitimacy to arayot. (We hope we did not offend anybody with the phrase “yehareg v’al yavor”. We know it is very “unmodern” to mention such things, but we assure you that it is also an “halachic value”.)

We also hope everyone reading this statement appreciates that we scrupulously avoided invoking the deity in any of this. We only used polite euphemisms such as “halachic values”, “halachic Judaism”,and “Torah hashkafa”. It would have been so very politically incorrect to say that God has declared to us that arayot (including homosexuality) are horribly destructive to human beings.