Nazis Killed My Family But Rabbi Says I'm No Jew

80-year-old's Jewish status challenged by religious court, after he attempted to join a British matchmaking service. Parents were founders of English Orthodox synagogue.

Nazis killed my family, but they say I'm no Jew

By Jessica Elgot • London Jewish Chronicle

An 80-year-old man has had his Jewish status challenged by the Beth Din, after he attempted to join a matchmaking service.

Two years ago, Joseph Marks's wife Marilyn, who was not Jewish, died of ovarian cancer. Mr Marks, a former film producer from Shepperton, Middlesex, applied to join Connect, an independent Jewish marriage service which is part of the Jewish Marriage Council.

In April, he was asked to meet Dayan Menachem Gelley at the London Beth Din. Unknown to him - and as he found out later - Connect routinely ask the Beth Din to investigate Jewish status before it accepts a marriage candidate.

Mr Marks said: "I have devoted a lot of time to seeking compensation for my family who were murdered by the Nazis in Treblinka. I went there on the understanding he was going to help me with my restitution claim.

"We sat in an empty boardroom and after sifting through my documents, Dayan Gelley asked me where I lived, and then commented that there weren't many Jews in Shepperton. I pointed out there are three synagogues there.

"He produced my mother's death certificate. He said it was invalid, despite the fact it is signed by an esteemed advocate in Israel, where my mother is buried. He said: 'We don't recognise that.'

"He looked over at me and said: 'I don't think you're Jewish. And I don't think your mother was Jewish either.'"

Mr Marks said he was unable to produce his mother's ketubah as his parents had had a "speedy wedding" at a registry office in Stepney.

He added: "My wife tried desperately hard to convert but she kept getting knocked back and she got too upset with it. I told Dayan Gelley who smiled and said: 'Yes, we make it very hard for people, don't we?' I am furiously angry. It is utterly insulting. I can't believe that a man who is in a higher position than a rabbi, could do that to someone, and speak to someone like that. Why do these men adopt such an attitude?"

Mr Marks has devoted much of his life to seeking compensation for what was stolen from his family by the Nazis.

He recalled being in Poland, just weeks before the Nazi invasion. He said: "My mother, Brucha, wanted to stay with her family. But I became ill, so we came back to London on the day war was declared. In 1942 we were contacted by the Red Cross to say the family had all been wiped out."

"My parents were founder members of the Orthodox Highams Park and Chingford Synagogue in 1930. They were observant Jews who brought me up speaking Hebrew and Yiddish.

"The dayan rejected my birth certificate, their marriage certificate and my mother's death certificate. I can't trace any further back, and I've been trying for years because of the restitution claim.

"All trace of my mother's family was wiped out in Poland and when our house in Chingford was bombed during the war, all my mother's documents were burnt to a crisp."

Dayan Gelley said: "We can't take his word for records existing if we can't find any evidence that they do exist.

"We have a family genealogist and a record archivist still chasing and hunting. We'd be delighted to help the gentleman when we do find something.

"It is the same for everyone, no matter how old they are. It's nothing to do with having children; you can't marry a Jewish person to a non-Jewish person, whatever their age."

Comments

[seymour]

just a point

that Nazis killed his father does not mean he is Jewish

many 6,000,000 other people where killed by the Nazis

[Someone]

Well maybe... the fact that he's JEWISH means he's jewish. God these pigs are revolting. (not you Seymour).

[harold]

It is a shame what he went through. It is quite clear that this service is not for him since if they are so selective in their qualifications it looks like they will not have much of a selection for his needs.

Maybe he should try a service like JDate. I just "played" with it and from the questions that it presented it looks like it is quite open as to how you can set up your profile and hence your possibility of finding a match.

I don’t want to be picky but the headline’s logic “Nazis Killed My Family But Rabbi Says I'm No Jew” is a little loose. Hitler did not apply halachic standards when he selected who is a Jew. I am sure that he killed many people for being Jewish who really weren’t. The Nazis had a different definition of being Jewish

“In Germany itself, the Ahnenpass and Nuremberg Laws classified people as Jews if they descended from three or four Jewish grandparents. A person with one or two Jewish grandparents was a Mischling, a crossbreed, of "mixed blood".
In German-occupied France an ordinance defined a Jew as an individual who belonged to the Jewish religion or who had more than two Jewish grandparents.
The Vichy régime in southern France, defined a Jew as an individual with three Jewish grandparents or two grandparents if his/her spouse were Jewish. Richard Weisberg points out that this was a potentially broader classification than the one used in Occupied France, for example, a half-Jew not practising Judaism could not be a Jew under the Nazi dictate, but would be deemed one under the Vichy act if he/she had married a Jew.
Anyway I wish him well.

[who knows]

This rabbi is a revolting pig.

Most of Jews living today do not have documents that would match his "standard". In fact, no one have an unshakable proof. This gives people like this pig lots of discreation and an ability to keep everyone in fear of loosing their status if he put his hoofs just a little deeper in their documents.

It is high time to break off from these abusers and subject them to public check of their own Jewishness and they have to prove it to the dot. I'm 100% sure they can not.

[Clear]

He said that his parents were founders and members of an Orthodox synagogue. From what I know of Orthodox synagogues, you must establish that you are Jewish in order to be a member.

So, unless Orthodox synagogues had very loose standards back then, being that his parents were members of the synagogue, that would mean that an Orthodox rabbi 80 years ago verified their Jewishness. Also, since they were founders, their names should be a matter of record.

So, then, what is the rabbi's problem?

(And one other point, with the anti-Semitism in British society at that time, what non-Jewish parents would decide to name their daughter Brucha?)

[pierre]

There are stam goyim all over Jdate, there's even a category for "not willing to convert" - obviously meaning to judaism. On a whim I searched sikhs - since my mother mentioned one having scoped her profile there - and I found two sikh young women - one even stating she could only marry within her certain "caste"! - and religious sikhs are supposed to be beyond caste (functionally, many desi Sikhs still factor caste as a dealbreaker in dating). that this man's life is made so hard - considering the complete sham that is Jewish dating today (sham because the past was not what it's made out to be - Ahem...as of yet un-used sources I sent to Shmarya...), it's infuriating this guy has it as rough as he does. there are Jewish class issues in the UK, even with non-observant Jews.

[Barry]

The matchmakers are acting illegally by restricting their services to Jews. See the JFS case.

[Shagrir]

I don't think this Dayan Gelley is Jewish. No Jew could have such a warped neshama as to say the things he did. Who died and made him G-d? It just shows the terrible incompetence of the Rabbanut today.

[nachos]

So, then, what is the rabbi's problem?

Posted by: Clear | July 02, 2010 at 12:03 PM

The guy didn't offer a "donation!" If he offerred a donation, then he would have been Jewish.

[R]

Soon everyone is going to be questioned as to their Jewishness and it won't be enough that you have a kesubah either.
Everyone should start researching their family tree on their maternal side.

[alternative childcare]

I love the title of this story "Nazis Killed My Family But Rabbi Says I'm No Jew".

I think the new punk album I'm working on (all based on lyrics by Yochanan Lavie) will use that (in German of course: "Nazis getötet meiner Familie, aber der Rabbi sagt, ich bin kein Jude") as a title, much like the classic Alarmsignal CD (and one of my favorite albums of all time) entitled: "Nazis nehmen uns die Arbeitspläze weg!"

[Mr. Apikoros]

Yo, AC!

This is just another case of "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich!"

But wouldn't the rabbi say, "Sie sind kein Jude?" oder, "das ich bin kein Jude?"

But I believe Nachos has the answer.

[alternative childcare]

I was preserving the syntax of the headline to use as my album title.
I didn't think you'd like the post, since Alarmsignal is left wing anti-nazi punk (yeah, yeah, just kidding).

[WoolSilkCotton]

Harold, you're married, but you troll on JDate, too? Very nice.

[former charedi]

"It is the same for everyone, no matter how old they are. It's nothing to do with having children; you can't marry a Jewish person to a non-Jewish person, whatever their age."

Moron.

Doesn't this dope realize that if Marks is not allowed to marry a Jewish woman, he may very well marry a Gentile woman again?

Since it's pretty certain that he is Jewish, this moron rabbi will be causing a Jewish person to marry a non-Jewish person, all in the name of doing otherwise.

It looks like revenge on this guy for marrying a non-Jew. For leaving the club, as it were.

[harold]

Harold, you're married, but you troll on JDate, too? Very nice.

How silly, I went on JDate to see if the site would be appropriate for Mr Marks. Instead of bellyaching and blowing a lot of useless hot air which is what most of the FailedMessiah people do I took it upon myself to offer a venue for Mr Marks to find his mate. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

[who knows]

Harold, it is interesting that in you comments a Rabbi is never wrong. You always find some explanations even if the rabbi cheats, steals, rude to elderly, parasitic.... Nothing a black hat rabbi can do to raise you consciousness from sleep. Amaizing.

[alternative childcare]

I think harold is yori yanover from his comments elsewhere on this site.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

The Britain Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sucks refused to accept an Orthodox conversion from Israel because he did not like the rabbi (rabanut memeber) of the municipality where the convert came from.

He is haredi and why the Modern Orthodox think he is one of them them and having him on a siddur to together with Rabbi Soloveitchik is a mystery to me.

The piece of shit (Jonathan Sucks) also in the middle of the second intifada while buses were blowing up on left and right had the guts to say THAT he is embarrassed by Israel behavior.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++ harold | July 02, 2010 at 03:57 PM++

Harold's statement reminds me of what Principal Skinner said when he was caught at La Maison Derrière. "I came here for directions on how to get away from here."

http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/La_Maison_Derrière

[rahm]

anyone can be or become a rabbi .

all you need is some eloquent verbal skills and skills to brainwash ppl .

[Georgie boy]

Something very similar happened to me:when my 85 years old father was dieing,I went to the rabbiante of my town and asked them to send a rabbi to visit and pray with himThey asked about his mother's grave's picture or the ketubà of his parents in a voice that seemed annoying to me....So I told the rabbi that he might have sometime heard that in Eastern Europe the jews were deported en masse to Auschwitz and the community offices ramapaged with the documents burned.He stayed in silence for a while looking thoughtfylly at me,and than said that everything was ok and my father was Jewish...

[Yoel Mechanic]

It's hard to know from the article if the Rabbi was actually rude, or accidentally touched on a sensitive topic. Of course, the spin of the article was that he was very callous. Now, I don't think these incidents should be used as a bludgeon to erode at the halachah was all know and support. The Nazis were very evil, driven by their own passions and we should do anything to fight that, and support the victims of their fury and assuage the fallout from all the damage they did. But the Nazi standards they chose to pick their victims is not relevant to Israel or our tribal laws. For instance, on humanitarian principles one should shelter the victim of persecution, and grant them asylum. However, whether to grant citizenship solely on the basis of someone being persecuted is a different matter, and should be decided on the basis of rule of law.

[former charedi]

Yoel,

I don't pretend to know who is correct in this case. We only have one side of the story. For all I know, this Rabbi could have good reason not to accept Marks' claim of Jewishness (I can think of a few reasons why, but listing them would be unfair to Marks if he is a Jew). Or the rabbi could be totally off the wall, and I would consider this yet another segment of my favorite feature, "Stupid Rabbi Tricks".

What burns me is that the whole power trip of Mi Yehudi is being played in such an arbitrary way by whoever wants to get in on the power game. It reminds me of tropper and the conversion power trip.

Marks got caught in this because he was married to a Gentile for so long that his tie to the Jewish community seems to have become untangled. Going back so long without solid documentation can be difficult. Only a knowledgeable Rabbi could do the proper research on this. A run of the mill type rabbi might not want to stick his neck out and risk his reputation on declaring Marks a Jew. He might just be waiting for Marks to die so the whole thing just goes away.

And I agree, saying that his family was persecuted just gets him sympathy points, not membership rights. He could always go for a conversion-just-in-case, like what tropper used to give to his baal t'shuvah recruits, some of whom reportedly had questionable backgrounds.

[Shmarya]

And I agree, saying that his family was persecuted just gets him sympathy points, not membership rights. He could always go for a conversion-just-in-case, like what tropper used to give to his baal t'shuvah recruits, some of whom reportedly had questionable backgrounds.

Did you really read the article? Do you ever follow links in articles? Or do you just spout off?

The man's parents FOUNDED an ORTHODOX synagogue in England.

His mother was buried as a Jew in Israel.

The rabbi is a DAYAN not a "run of the mill rabbi." His father was a rosh yeshiva who then went to NYC to become the posek-chief rabbi of KAJ.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I once met Moshe Dayan. The other dayans can go to hell.

Former Charedi, why should this fellow go for a conversion? From what to what? You can't get more Jewish than he.

[Alter Kocker]

Calling one's jewishness into question to me, smacks of slander. How would these Chareidi pigs react to their real center of the universe being challenged. How about a multi-million dollar lawsuit.

If those who are maligned in this manner begin bringing civil suit after civil suit, these pigs will certainly back down: after all you are taking away from their real g-d; the almighty dollar.

[Alter Kocker]

And PS, if a Rabbi/Dayan or whatever did that to me, he would leave the meeting with two black eyes and one or two fewer teeth.

It is time to fight back against these pigs.

[eitan]

"Is Hitler the chief Rabbi now?"

-Ryan Gosling in The Believer

[Mr. Apikoros]

If Dayan did this to me, he'd be missing more than one or two teeth.

I may be a not-so-alter kocker but I can still put one hand in front of the other when the occasion demands it.

[former charedi]

Did you really read the article? Do you ever follow links in articles? Or do you just spout off?

I just don't automatically believe something just because it's in print.

I didn't say it is not true. Just that we only heard one side, etc. I am inclined to believe it, but not to pass judgment after reading it or its links.

Hey, don't you read posts, or do you just spout off?

[WoolSilkCotton]

If the guy was really Jewish, he would have known that he had to bribe the 'rabbi' in order to get anything done.

[Shmarya]

I just don't automatically believe something just because it's in print.

I didn't say it is not true. Just that we only heard one side, etc. I am inclined to believe it, but not to pass judgment after reading it or its links.

Hey, don't you read posts, or do you just spout off?

Here's what you wrote:…Marks got caught in this because he was married to a Gentile for so long that his tie to the Jewish community seems to have become untangled. Going back so long without solid documentation can be difficult. Only a knowledgeable Rabbi could do the proper research on this. A run of the mill type rabbi might not want to stick his neck out and risk his reputation on declaring Marks a Jew. He might just be waiting for Marks to die so the whole thing just goes away.

And I agree, saying that his family was persecuted just gets him sympathy points, not membership rights. He could always go for a conversion-just-in-case, like what tropper used to give to his baal t'shuvah recruits, some of whom reportedly had questionable backgrounds.You clearly ignored his stated background.

Past that, if you had bothered to follow the link on DAYAN Gelley, or had simply Googled him, you'd know calling him a "simple run of the mill rabbi" is BS.

But you did not do any due diligence, you just condemned Marks to sofek-gentilehood and alibied for the rabbi who is persecuting him.

[Yoel Mechanic]

I suspect that Former Chareidi was trying to be neutral in this particular case, and was just speculating on various legal hypotheticals to illustrate what he thinks on this issue in general. That he used variations on this particular case gave an impression (or mis-impression) that he meant to apply this to the actual individuals in the article. At least I hope his actual intent was to be neutral. I think some dan l'chap zechut is in order regarding his remarks, which admittedly, were not worded super duper carefully to make it clear he was making speculations on a hypothetical. Another reason to cut slack is that this is a blog after-all, and even though people should be very careful what they say, writing here isn't a paid profession so people do rush and often fail to have their lawyer read over what they write.

[Reader]

He should have asked for the dayan's papers.
No one seems to realize that these people have formed an exclusive club with only themselves as members.
This man has way more "papers" than most American Jews. Most Jewish cemeteries in Eastern Europe have been destroyed and are being destroyed. Russian Jews have "Jew" on theirs birth certificates but here the excuse to reject them is that they are allegedly "fake".
This dayan would reject as Moshiach as a non-Jew Moshiach unless he had proper "papers".

[Reader]

If I ever found myself in a similar situation, I would insult the crap out of this "dayan".

[Reader]

Sorry for the typos.
I hope the meaning of what I wrote is still clear.

[former charedi]

You clearly ignored his stated background.

No I didn't. Sure to get you upset because this is our point of contention: his background is indeed stated . I do not have traceable paperwork in front of me to the effect that the article is true. Sorry Shmarya, I don't automatically trust journalists or articles even if they are published by major news sources. Even if all the documents are verifiable, there may be other contradictory facts. Was he adopted? Did he do something for some rabbi to declare him no longer part of the Jewish community? And please don't quote me "the odds" of these things. This is a legal case, and without allowing both sides to present evidence I won't make a decision based on odds.

Past that, if you had bothered to follow the link on DAYAN Gelley, or had simply Googled him, you'd know calling him a "simple run of the mill rabbi" is BS.

I didn't realize that you were referencing a previous post of mine. I did not put that paragraph together well. To me, someone is a simple run of the mill rabbi if he doesn't have the guts or moral fiber to take on an explosive case and take it wherever it leads. A simple run of the mill rabbi would not stick his neck out. I don't give points to rabbis who have traveled up the political ladder because though that is great for them, it does nothing for me unless they are made of good stuff.

But you did not do any due diligence, you just condemned Marks to sofek-gentilehood and alibied for the rabbi who is persecuting him.

One, I don't do due diligence by researching news articles at home. I also don't know what took place in their conversations. In fact, most news publications would use disclaimer terms like "alleged", "as far as this newspaper can tell", and so forth in a situation of this sort. You have a tendency to state your posts as fact. Not everyone does.

Two, I didn't condemn anyone to anything. I just didn't say that I ruled that Marks is Jewish, and that the rabbi was a putz, which would condemn the rabbi to putz-hood without a fair trial. I just said this might be a way out. But in hindsight I was wrong. This is about Restitution money. His converting now would have no effect on that outcome as much as I can tell. He has to prove that the money was stolen from Jews and that he is the closest descendant.

Three, I didn't alibi the rabbi. Though perhaps I shouldn't have, I implied that he was spineless and self serving. I take that back. I don't know that for a fact.

Four, if you believe this rabbi is persecuting Marks, then there is a story to be researched here. Research it. From what I read, this seems to be about money in the form of a Restitution Claim and heart-string tugging to flesh it out. Where there is acrimony, money, clergy, and laity, there is normally someone trying to steal a buck. And a real story.

Don't simplify it to a 3rd grade level. These both seem to be sophisticated men. What's the real bone of contention? And please don't just quote the article again.

[former charedi]

Yoel,

I suspect that Former Chareidi was trying to be neutral in this particular case...

Thank you.

What happened was that in my original "moron" post (that Shmarya ignored) I said what I feel in my gut, that this is another rabbinical miscarriage of justice.

Then I calmed down and realized that we are bashing the clergyman and excusing the feeding frenzy by claiming that we know for sure that he is what we suspect he is. You can hurt a person that way. The "odds" are that he deserves it. But we haven't heard the whole story by a long shot.

So yes, I am trying to be unbiased now that people's futures are at stake. It doesn't matter that I believe that this rabbi is probably wrong, or that most rabbis in general are self-serving. This is a specific case. As Tom Cruise put it, "The defendant has rights". That applies in the court of public opinion as well.

[amateur]

The poor old man was really turned down by the dating site, because he was too old for them but they didn't want to be sued for age discrimination (not politically correct0 so they insisted he meet the rabbi. They didn't expect him to use his senior citizen's free travel card to come in and actually see him.

[Shmarya]

The poor old man was really turned down by the dating site, because he was too old for them but they didn't want to be sued for age discrimination (not politically correct0 so they insisted he meet the rabbi. They didn't expect him to use his senior citizen's free travel card to come in and actually see him.

Please.

[Jeff Eyges]

"Why do these men adopt such an attitude?"

Because they're pieces of shit. Because they're small men with a little authority. Because they think they're they're the reason the universe exists.

[Boris]

Too many "Rabbis" are on power trips and enjoy cutting sincere Jews down to size. My only advice is to stay far, far away from them.

[Velvel]

You know what the problem is? He didn't make a big enough contribution to the Rabbi. I have found that when dealing with these Rabbis money talks. Are you a molestor, no problem, just give a big donation to the synagogue, you will be fine. However, anyone who blows the whistle on you, will be berated, told you talk Lashan Harah, are a mirror of the molestor and henceforth be unwelcome in the synagogue.

[Shmarya]

Please stop commenting under different names.

Choose one and stick with it.

[Steven Wolf]

I know this post is now quite old!, however remember reading of this case, in the JC, at the time. I actually know the Synagougle mentioned, which is near where I live.

There seemed to be one missing point to this story, as the perants of this man were members of an Orthodox Synagouge, it is almost certain they would have been buried in an Orthodox cemetery. Would that not have been sufficient proof?

Steven in UK.