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August 01, 2010

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Dovit

Abracadabra, on the same token, comparing writing a letter about how rude people can be to goyim is nowhere near as disgusting as teaching little boys to jump up because a "shiksa" is near.

Seraphya Berrin

Either way, the Haredim should realize that at the very least their behavior is a chilul hashem.

DaveDaytona

Not so long ago, accounts of foreign cultures were full of unrelenting ridicule and contempt for practices that departed from Western norms. Today, we dismiss those accounts as the worst sort of narrow-minded bigotry. Christina Patterson's screed deserves nothing less.

Yes, Haredim are sometimes rude. But had Patterson taken the time to learn a little bit about the community she chose to live in, she might have taken much less offense at some of the behaviour she describes. It is not that difficult, for example, to find out why Haredi men avoid physical contact with women.

Instead, Patterson just assumed the worst possible motivations. We can debate whether that makes her an anti-Semite, or just ignorant and narrow-minded. But this much is clear: Patterson is an unpardonably lazy journalist.

It is also curious to note whose rudeness she chooses to notice. It was London's Times that described modern Britain's drunken, violent, loutish culture as "Dipso fatso bingo ASBO Tesco." An ASBO, for those who share Patterson's aversion to Google, never mind actual research, is an Anti-Social Behaviour Notice. And Stamford Hill is smack in the middle of Hackney, where ASBOs are handed out like toilet paper--though not so often to Haredim.

seymour

Sadly the leaders are not addressing the issue of derech eretz. I guess the type of wig your wife wears or what colour tights you put on your 3 year old is far more important.

Posted by: R | August 02, 2010 at 11:50 AM

that is very true but I might add I had 1 rebbie in a cherdie yeshiva who mentioned that and blasted the class for not having derech eretz for anybody.

What happened he said (he was a frail old man) that he was walking home to prepare for shabbos and he saw this old black woman struggling to carry her bags. He watched as many yeshiva boys ran passed him and said good shabbos, and not one even giving a second thought to help the woman. So, he help the woman to carry her bags home.

He was really pissed and said the yeshivas do not spend time reaching the boys simple derech eretz. And finished by saying if you think the world owes you anything because you are learning gemorah you are wrong, without derech eretz you are nothing.

I remember this since he was a very calm old man and never saw him so angry.

R

Actually when she talks about the bad driving, this would be the same for the muslim community as well....and the foreigners that drive here too.
That is compared with the rest of society.
I would also like to point out that the charedim are rude to everyone, not just the goy. And i am glad she doesn't work in a place that provides services for the charedi community because she would have far worse to write about.
Sadly the leaders are not addressing the issue of derech eretz. I guess the type of wig your wife wears or what colour tights you put on your 3 year old is far more important.

Schneersontology

maybe Anonymous will organize a protest against the rudeness of Schneersontologists and related Satmartologists. scientologists are polite in public.

Abracadabra

Correction: whose ancestors

NOT: whose decendents

Abracadabra

Bob -

I agree with everything you wrote EXCEPT "Patterson isn't an anti-Semite." and "Get the hell over it."

I am the first to complain about the rudeness of Chassidim and their lack of manners. It's deplorable, embarrases and upsets me, makes a Chillul Hashem, adds to bad relations with our fellow human beings, and generally breeds bad results.

I have no problems with piling the critisism onto Chassidim for their complete lack of manners or understanding of it's importance.

BUT I don't want to hear that critisism coming from someone who groups it into the same category of offense with female genital mutilation which is a crime and an intentional disfigurment of girls/women for life. Coming from Patterson it's anti-Semitism and I therefore am not interested in hearing her views on the matter.

Critisism of Chareidi rudeness coming from people who aren't equating it with female genital mutilation in it's offensiveness, is something I can accept and discuss. But coming from Patterson and any other of her polite anti-Semitic friends, I just have no interest in hearing about it.

And yes, I'm a bit paranoid, I'm a first generation natural born American whose decendents were neatly wiped out in gas chambers and ovens by polite Germans while other polite Europeans, including Western Europeans, politely looked the the other way.

But I don't think every non-Jew is an anti-Semite (far from it!), and I don't think Rubashkin's sentence was anti-Semitic. I DO think that a journalist who tries to look "even handed" while underhandedly suggesting the equating of Chassidic social rudeness with Muslim criminal female genital mutilation (because both come from insular communities?!), is anti-Semitic in a nice, British, polite sort of way. And I call it as I see it.

sifter

I dunno. You guys here write much worse, bash Haredis all the time. Why shouldn't others take a page out of your book and run with it? Some posters here have written abohorrent stuff, like 'i understand why the Nazis gassed Jews' because, what, some hareidi guy is a criminal? or Ten of 'em? or a hundred of 'em?

So why is everybody surprised when this little daily Jewish anti-Jew fest here on FailedMessiah.com suddenly takes off and goes viral??

Catcher50

@y. Ben-David...Add to all of that the PhiloArabism that permeated much of upper class Britain, after Lawrence wrote his romanticized books about the dessert sheiks.

Y. Ben-David

This is a revival of classic genteel British antisemitism which even infected supposedly "broadminded" people like Mohandas Gandhi who learned his antisemitism (and YES, Gandhi was an antisemite) while he was a law student in Britain. If Jews don't want to assimilate and maintain a disctinct identity they are called "standoffish", which is what this article is complaining about. On the other hand, if Jews DO want to integrate themselves into British society, they are called "pushy". In other words, no matter what the Jews do, the British antisemite is going to complain. It is sad to see this open antisemitism reappear and become "acceptable" in polite society. In any event, for any British Jews who are worried about these developments, we are waiting with open arms to welcome you to Israel where you can live freely as a Jew.

WoolSilkCotton

Kvetcher, interesting point. Second and third generation post-Holocaust also don't subscribe to goyaphobia.

TheKvetcher

Haredi goyaphobia is one of the reasons why Kiruv fails with pre-war Jews. We just aren't as angry as the B'nai Shoah.

not the messiah

Christina Patterson's article shows her anti-Semitism in her equating some rudeness and her perceived insults by Chasidic Jews to the illegal behavior of Muslims who physically mutilate their daughters by cutting off their daughters' labia, and clitoris and then sewing their vaginas closed

This is utter nonsense. No such comparison was made, this is all in your head.

WoolSilkCotton

Spend a day walking along the streets and shopping in the stores of Boro Park or Williamsburg. If you're a man, try it without a yarmulke or hat. If you're a woman, wear pants and a sleeveless top.

At the end of the day you will be in total agreement with Patterson and Thompson.

Nobody

"I could tell stories, of unbelievable haughtiness"

You could? So tell them, liar.

I never knew that responding in one syllable was an offense. How many syllables defines politeness these days?

Catcher50

I'll disagree with Shmarya, at least a little, on this.

First, Britain (aided greatly by the British press) has really become the center of Islamo-Europe. Ms. Patterson has led off and highlighted what she sees as negative actions on the part of Jews (Haredim) in particular.

Some of the items that she cites are playing into the hands of traditional anti-Simites (i.e. the Volvo thing, implying that somehow Jews are rich and conspicuous consumers) and that is very problematic.

She also implies that the cell phone stuck to the ear while driving is, somehow, an indication that Jews are so self indulgent that they don't care about anyone else. She needs to drive in my (not particularly Jewish) neighborhood. She would see that almost every teenager seems to drive with a cell phone attached to his/her ear. Does this prove that all teenagers are self centered and uncaring (wait, that might not be the best example...I'll work on that one.)
What really bothers me about this column is that the anti-Jewish part is in the first part of the column. Meanwhile the criticisms of others were well down in the piece. We all know that that which appears before the fold is much more likely to be read than that which appears after the fold or on page 38.

By the way, if that professor of Judaic Studies was fired after converting to Christianity, I don't have a problem with the firing. Presumably part of the hiring process was that, as a Jew, she would bring a certain prospective to the department. By converting, she, effectively, changed her prospective and was no longer maintaining the parameters for which she had been hired.

Shaul in Monsey

There isn't one drop of antisemitism in Patterson's article. Don't blame he messenger for delivering the truth - that many among us are rude, inconsiderate boors with antiquated views on life. Chassidim have puhlenty of problems - their system is no where near utopian. With their inbreeding they bear massively large percentages of handicapped children, they've got a disproportionate share of faygs and peodphiles, not to mention the shtick they pull when it comes to their true deity - Gelt Almighty.

Dr. Dave

I hate to say this but they are correct to an extent.

But it is not only Jewish rudeness to Gentiles that is the problem. We are just as rude to our fellow Jews.

Perhaps Michael is correct to an extent, but it goes far beyond just large chareidi families. We seem to encourage rudeness, cutting in lines, curtness and generally lack of derech eretz.

We all know the dictum: derech eretz kadma l'torah. (Manners come before the Torah).

Perhaps that is why there is so little Torah out there todays and just chumra monkeys seeking to infringe upon fellow Jews' lives by violating the Torah (Baal Tosiph - Do Not Add To The Torah) with their egregious chumrot.

Bob

Waiting for the flying Tomatoes and the screams of "self-hater" to fly when I say this............
Patterson isn't an anti-Semite.
If she's being treated like rubbish, it's OUR shonde. If we regard others as shit, than it stands to reason that it will be thrown back at us. It's human nature. Get the hell over it.
It seems that loving thy neighbour and treating others as we wish to be treated seem to have gone to the wayside with those that Patterson has come in contact with.
Hostility breeds hostility. Pure and simple.
I choose to believe that all humans and indeed all life in general are interconnected.
If this makes me a "bad" Jew, so be it.

rabbidw

There is a fundamental difference between a culture that simply does not know how to deal with outsiders, and a culture that wants to FORCE the larger society to conform to its values. The comparison is unfair.
The chareidim are rude, but if she thinks driving while talking on a cell phone is a chareidi "thing" she is not an honest reporter.

mottel

please don't take this woman seriously, just because you are anti-chariedi. She has been severely pillaried by many goyim in the british press for being a plain bigot, it's all the old antisemitic canards. She tars the whole of us with the same brush. Please, for G-d's sake, don't agree with her ! My enemy's enemy is NOT my friend. Say this 100 times to yourself!

Abu Jihad Schneerson

I am probably the luckiest guy on earth,then.Every time I had met haredim(Lubavitch or Breslov),they were very nice to me,even if I am not Jewish because only my father was Jewish but not my mother.

Shmarya

Even better, why doesn't she move into a Moslem neighborhood for a few years, and then write a comparison piece, if she is still alive and non-Moslem.

The issue is NOT about which community, haredim or Muslims, are worse.

The issue is, based on her column and other anecdotal evidence, are haredim worse than society at large.

The answer to that question would appear to be yes.

Shmarya

Well, why doesn't she write one about the Moslems not in order to appear "evenhanded" but just because she feels they are not civilized enough for her, and then we'll see.

Well, what she did was write a column about several separatist communities, one of them being Stamford Hill's haredim.

If you read the column, which I posted above, mind you, you'll see that.

You need to stop looking for antisemites under every rock.

Reader

Even better, why doesn't she move into a Moslem neighborhood for a few years, and then write a comparison piece, if she is still alive and non-Moslem.

Reader

Well, why doesn't she write one about the Moslems not in order to appear "evenhanded" but just because she feels they are not civilized enough for her, and then we'll see.

David

Posted by: Michael | August 01, 2010 at 01:02 AM

Excellent post Michael and so true.

Shmarya

Why doesn't she write a critical article about the "religion of peace" which has taken over the Great Britain, and see if she gets to keep her job at the paper?

She did. In fact, it's part of the same article that deals with haredim.

It's even posted right above.

Maybe you should read the entire post before you comment.

Reader

Why doesn't she write a critical article about the "religion of peace" which has taken over the Great Britain, and see if she gets to keep her job at the paper?
What can you expect from the country where the thugs who caused hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to a Jewish business were acquitted because it was deemed by the judge a legitimate protest against Israel's policies? The judge was born near Tel Aviv in mandatory Palestine, and was dragged out of retirement to preside over the case.
All these "offenses" are entirely in her head, and not "understanding" why Jews hate Christianity is disingenuous, to say the least. Personally, I think Jews do not hate Christianity enough.

Michael

The percentage of rude chassidim in the US is much higher than that of Stamford Hill as a quick visit to Boro Park, Williamsburgh, Monsey, Monroe, etc., will demonstrate. By the way, Christina Patterson should be informed that the chareidim are just as rude to their fellow jews as they are to goyim. I have lived with and among them for many years. I believe this "me first and damn everyone else" attitude comes from having been raised in very large families. Chassidim early-on realize that being polite, observing social etiquette (the existence of which they are completely unaware), not shoving or pushing will often result in not getting that last morsel of food or piece of candy on the table, or getting the lousiest toy, the worst seat on the bus or no seat, etc. Combine this with their home and school education which teaches either explicitly or by example that everyone outside of their particular group is to be disdained, Jew or gentile, chassidish or yeshivish or modern orthodox. These kids absorb these lessons continuously and it leads to their uncivilized behavior. The reason you never hear the words "please", "thank you", or "pardon me" emerge from their mouths is that they literally don't know the words, neither in Yiddish or English, as they are not in the chassidic vocabulary. Also, what Ms. Patterson sees as rudeness is actually often an example of their religious and social backwardness. As an example: If a male buys anything in a Chassidic store in Williamsburg, if the person at the register is a girl or a woman, she will not hand you the change but instead place it on the counter. This is done for strictly religious reasons and was jolting to me when I first encountered the practice. They became aware that this was a problem so now all registers are fitted with automatic change machines so the change gets dropped in a cup in front of the shopper. Behavior like this is likely to be construed as rudeness but is actually the result of their obsession with anything that might smack of sexual contact. This is why girls are taught not to smile or respond to a good morning or hi or hello from a stranger, especially male, because eye contact might be misconstrued as an acknowledgment of welcoming signals. This is their culture. Live with it or refrain from shopping in their neighborhoods. I, for one, avoid them like the plague.

Abracadabra

Christina Patterson's article shows her anti-Semitism in her equating some rudeness and her perceived insults by Chasidic Jews to the illegal behavior of Muslims who physically mutilate their daughters by cutting off their daughters' labia, and clitoris and then sewing their vaginas closed. I realize that the British perceive rudeness as the ultimate crime, but the author's very comparison and equating of these "crimes" belies her anti-Semitism and twisted sense of perception.

It is no secret that the British are anti-Semites, having not allowed Jews to live in Britian for centuries. And I'm not proud of my Jewish brethren who have no manners - I do believe they they were rude to her at times, and treated her as less than human (as they have done to me because as a non-Chasid they consider me a goy). But being insulted by 8-year-old Chasidic boys on busses and being outraged about Muslim female genital mutilation should not be in the same category. How ridiculously transparent this woman's anti-Semitism is. It's pathetic.

Eliezer

Haredi bashing is in and allowable even in polite society.

Шнеерсон

Once the people around these stamford hill haredigoyim understand that these hasids ain't Yidden they can discuss the matter more freely. People need to write in and express the idea that since hasids are a new non jewish religion one cannot properly call antihasidism antisemitism.

Garnel Ironheart

The British have a lot bigger problem with their Muslim community. For all their rudeness, the Chasidim of Stamford Hill just want to be left alone, not to take over the culture of the country and impose their religious law on it.

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