Haredi Rabbis: Jewish Great-Niece Of Zionist Leader 'Not Jewish Enough' To Marry In Israel

"It was made very clear that without ketubot and without birth certificates from four generations, I would need to go to the Beit Din. I told him, time and time again, that my grandparents are Shoah survivors [and thus their ketubot no longer exist] and I was told that wasn't his problem."

Nahum Sokolov was president of the World Zionist Organization just before Chaim Weitzmann and a child prodigy (illui) who was a direct descendant of Rabbi Nathan Nata Spira, the 17th century author of the noted rabbinic work Megalleh 'Amuḳḳot.

Sokolov is one of the two or three Jewish leaders most responsible for Britain issuing the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Tel Aviv is named after Sokolov's title for his translation of Theodore Herzl's novel Altneuland. And Sokolov has a kibbutz named after him.

But I'll bet you not one of the haredi rabbis involved in this travesty knows any of this or even cares.

That is the tragedy of modern Israel. It has ceded all things Jewish, so to to speak, to haredi rabbis who share nothing but genetics with the men and women who built Israel.

The time is long overdue for Israel's leaders to act with the same decisiveness and courage as their ancestors who made aliyah to the sand dunes they later built into the first modern Jewish city in the world, Tel Aviv.

It is time to throw the haredim out: Out of power, out of draft dodging, out of tax evasion, out of kollel payments and out of welfare support.

And, if that doesn't work, throw the haredim out altogether from the state they have given nothing to.

Ha'aretz reports:

Sokolow's niece 'not Jewish enough' to marry here
After being told she needed to prove the Jewishness of her maternal lineage for four generations, Hillary Rubin is questioning her decision to move to Israel.
By Raphael Ahren • Ha'aretz

Hillary Rubin felt she was living out her ancestors' dream when she decided to move to Israel in 2006. Now she says she is being forced to leave the country to fulfill her own dream - getting married.

"Zionism runs in my family," the Detroit native says, adding that her grandfather's uncle was Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow.

But after filing for a wedding license and being told she needed to prove the Jewishness of her maternal lineage for four generations, she is wondering whether she made the right decision in immigrating to a Jewish state that doubts her Jewishness.

"I'm furious with this country right now," the 29-year-old international relations student told Anglo File this week. "I'm the great-great-niece of a prominent Zionist and I am always a supporter of this country, but this really frustrated me and I can totally understand why a lot of my Anglo friends left this country."

Rubin, who was raised in a Conservative household, produced letters from four Conservative rabbis and one Chabad rabbi attesting to her Jewishness. But the Herzliya Rabbinate said the letters were not enough and asked her to bring ketubot, or religious wedding contracts, as well as birth or death certificates of her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother.

"It was made very clear that without ketubot and without birth certificates from four generations, I would need to go to the Beit Din [local rabbinical court]," Rubin told Anglo File this week. "I told him, time and time again, that my grandparents are Shoah survivors [and thus their ketubot no longer exist] and I was told that wasn't his problem."

The Herzliya Rabbinate responded that it kept to strict standards "of Moses and Israel" for affirming one's faith.

There is no civil marriage in Israel, forcing couples to either go through a local Rabbinate or marry abroad. The Chief Rabbinate recently enacted new guidelines automatically sending marriage candidates whose parents did not wed in Israel to a local rabbinical court to determine whether they are really Jewish.

The new regulations do not specify which documents are needed to conclusively determine a person's Jewishness. It's likely that Rubin's letters would not have proven sufficient for them, according to a rabbi with knowledge of the system.

Rubin fears the rabbinical court might declare her a non-Jew and thus decided to get married without the Rabbinate's blessing. Instead, Rubin and her Johannesburg-born fiance' Craig Glaser will tie the knot in a Conservative ceremony on a moshav in the Sharon region in two weeks. Since Conservative weddings are not recognized by the state, they plan to fly for one day to Cyprus for a civil marriage - an option used by many Israeli couples unable, or unwilling, to satisfy the Rabbinate's demands.

The rabbinical court does not actually declare somebody a non-Jew without proof of their belonging to another religion, but Rubin would still run the risk of being left in the situation of not being officially Jewish by the state's standards should she turn to them.

"At this point, I no longer want to play be their rules. I want to fight what they're doing," Rubin, who observes Shabbat and keeps kosher, said.

When Anglo File called the Rabbinate's marriage department this week, a man who said he was its director but declined to state his name said he remembered the case. He said the couple was referred to the rabbinical court in Tel Aviv to have their Jewishness affirmed, and that before this is done he cannot let them get married. When he learned they had decided to get married in Cyprus to avoid the rabbinical court, he said nonchalantly: "Good for them. We are only marrying people according to the law of Moses and Israel."

Rubin and her fiance' - whose documents were accepted by the rabbinate as valid proof of Jewishness - did not even want to try to convince the rabbinical court that she is a Jew. "I can't provide them with the documents they want. I am the granddaughter of four Holocaust survivors, any documents my grandparents may have had from their families we don't have anymore ... Who has a death certificate from somebody who was gassed to death? These things are frustrating because my grandparents were persecuted for being Jewish, and here I am being told I'm not exactly Jewish."

She is also concerned they might not declare her Jewish because her parents are divorced and she can no longer provide their ketuba. The facts that her parents' get, or bill of divorce, was prepared by a Conservative rabbi and that her mother has since remarried a Catholic would further lead the rabbis to deny her their official stamp of approval, she said.

The young couple believes the consequences of going through the rabbinical court are "much worse" than not going at all.

"It's as if one day you wake up and you're no longer a Jew in the Jewish State but outside Israel you are still Jewish enough to be hated by most of the world," Rubin says. "It's a weird feeling. It's hard enough to grasp the idea that your Judaism may not be valid but then to be told you're not actually Jewish according to the Jewish state - it's ostracizing."

Nahum Sokolov.

[Hat Tip: Radical Feminist.]

Comments

[soso]

"When he learned they had decided to get married in Cyprus to avoid the rabbinical court, he said nonchalantly: "Good for them. We are only marrying people according to the law of Moses and Israel."

I would make a bit campaign out of this quote. Because it says that the chief rabbinate is not interested in preserving the "holy jewish marriage". Therefore, it says that the chief rabbinate representatives themselves do not oppose to civil marriage: Introduce civil marriage in Israel, strip rabbanut of the power they are abusing.

[Yosef ben Matiya]

If this is the state we have, maybe better give it back to the arabs?!
When the holy one blessed be he delivered our forefathers from egypt, ".....a mixed multitude went up also with them;" Moses our master, didn't throw them out.
These haredi jerks, fancy themselves as better than Moshe Rabbenu.
Must be that the hareidis themselves "are" the 3erev rav that took over the nation!

[ruthie]

my children are the grandchildren of four shoah survivors.

i don't know what to think anymore about sending my children on school trips there...so sad.

so very very sad...

and one of my daughters, after university, wants to move there! to be with her jewish people. what kind of stupid rabbis to they have
over there? as stupid as here, i guess. well, most of them...not all.

[ruthie]

it's not just sad...it's an outrage.
how dare these rabbis in israel play g-d.

how is this woman supposed to produce documents?
it's disgusting.

i would love to live in israel but it's things like this and the fanatics taking over that makes me think of the coast of italy instead...maybe lake como? if it weren't for these rabbis asking for this woman to produce what is not possible, and more....so many many more people would move to israel. at this point, it's a joke. sad

[who knows]

This type of Rabbinical abuse is going on in Israel daily. In this case, the woman happens to be a relative of one of the leading Zionists and made the paper.

The abusve men in Rabbinate destroy Jewish identity and Jewish attachement of so many. They are the new Amalek.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> I'm the great-great-niece of a prominent Zionist and I am always a supporter of this country

This is an inspiring quote but what does it have to do with anything? Herzl's children converted out and they were the children of the father of the Jewish state. What's more, John Hagee is a great supporter of the country and he's not Jewish either. So why should this statement matter?

Besides, she made two big mistakes as she inadvertently admits:

1st mistake: Rubin... produced letters from four Conservative rabbis

2nd mistake: and one Chabad rabbi

What did she think would happen?

[jay]

Apparently she didn't realize that the Rabbinate has become so extremist. She didn't know that they wouldn't accept the death of her family in the Holocaust as valid reason to have no documentation.

Let them keep this up for a while longer and Israel will lose most American Jewish support, as well as AIPAC.

[ruthie]

let them keep this up for a while longer and israel will lose most american jewish support....true that.

not to accept the death of her family in the holocaust is nothing less than scary...to me...then where is home?

[A E ANDERSON]

The Knesset needs to set the standard by statute and force the rabbanut to comply with the law. Ultimately, Parliament is the law of the land.

[seymour]

it could be the next big antisemitic wave will come from Jews against the cherideim

[harold]

First let us understand that ANY classification devised will have what I call "boundary" issues. There will always be cases that don’t quite fit the ruling and then someone will have to step in and make a decision. When then happens is that the scourge of the earth, the media will appear, and next thing you know we are back with a FailedMessaih post having the poor soul declaring they pay their taxes and they are not recognized as a Jew. It’s the law of numbers and the myriad of stories that will result in the inevitable exception to the rule, the situation that wasn’t addressed, the scenario that fell between the cracks.

There was a talk show host here in New York, Lionel, who had a line “I hear a “but(t) coming” by this he meant (besides the “butt” inference) that he hears an argument that appears to show that something is unfair and only at the end the caller says “but” and that is when the problems with the argument begins to present itself.

In most of these conversion stories that are being presented here at FailedMessiah are in that category. It begins with what appears to be a compelling argument almost unbelievable at first that someone with such sterling reputation and character should have their “Jewishness” questioned. Then as I read I am thinking about what Lionel said and say to myself “I hear a but(t) coming” and then it comes. Conservative Rabbis, mother marries a Christian.

I again wish her well, if she is shomer shabbos and keeps kosher then I hope that this coupled with her history can result in a fast track to clearing up her Jewish classification.

Just remember people, whatever final decision to the conversion issue there still will be cases that fall between the cracks and will result in our being entertained here at FailedMessaih.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

Shmyrah..

OFF TOPIC

Very nice article on cnn.com about Kosher fress and our 'brother' and convicted felon Rubashin.

[seymour]

I think any herdie that wants to get married in EY should have to provide birth certificates and death certificate before they can be declared a yid if not they have too convert. Including the rebbies that are making up this rules let them prove they are jewish.

maybe this rabbies are spies from some Jew hating cult and trying to destroy the Jewish race the only way we can be sure they are not is by them proving it with many generations of certificates. If they say but out parents where murdered in the holocaust, no deal. many none Jews where gassed too. If they cannot provide these certificate they should be striped of there title and power immediately

[ruthie]

so scary.
so sad.

i appreciate the other people posting...you are all correct.
who are these rabbis?
when a boy turns three, it's like the rabbis are putting horseradish on the aleph beis cake instead of honey to introduce him to love of torah.
these rabbis are so scary.
sad

[yudel]

Did it ever occur to anyone that the rabies -rabbis are in fact the erev rav?

[ruthie]

what does erev rav mean? please define this for me.

[Barry]

Harold, you miss the point. This is not a 'boundary issue' in defining who is a Jew. It is one relating to the unavailability of civil marriage in Israel. All enlightened states allow their citizens to marry each other by civil law if they are unable to do so by religious law. When a lapsed American Jew wishes to marry a lapsed American Catholic there may not be any 'boundary issue' involved. The Jew's yichus may be unimpeachable and he or she would have no problem marrying in a synagogue if he or she had wished to marry another Jew. However this Jew wants to 'marry out'. Why should the state not allow him or her to do so?

When a lapsed American Jew wishes to marry a lapsed Amercian Catholic, do you think either of them give a damn about upsetting the religious communities they may have been born into. Such couples only seek a hechsher from the state not from a representative of a religion they have no regard for.

The early Zionists like the Maskilim, were well aware of the need to escape the halachic 'noble savages' who kept Jews in poverty, ignorance and danger in Eastern Europe. That is why Israel's citizenship laws do not follow halacha. You cannot have a state withholding marriage rights from those it is prepared to grant citizenship rights.

[Clear]

This is an inspiring quote but what does it have to do with anything? Herzl's children converted out and they were the children of the father of the Jewish state. What's more, John Hagee is a great supporter of the country and he's not Jewish either. So why should this statement matter?

Even without the issue of religious definitions, from a purely secular point of view we have a relative of one of the people responsible for the founding of the State of Israel being treated as a second class citizen in that very country.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I am uncomfortable about having the definition of "Who's Jewish" made by the Third Reich.

Nonetheless, if she is Jewish enough to have been murdered in the Holocaust (as members of her family were), she's Jewish enough to be married in Israel.

[Been There Done That]

This story is obviously missing loads of facts. I'm sure that the Rabbinate representative may have been a jerk, but I am also pretty sure that Hillary could get married in Israel if she just went throught the "red tape" just like all others. Everybody in Israel has to deal with red tape daily, "Hareidi" or otherwise. It's a sucky society that way.

[Michael David Kittell]

Israel should do like Italy after Garibaldi which separated totally from the Vatican, so likewise Israel should divorce itself from the Rabbanut
At the very least that will improve mental health in the country by eliminating a major source of stress

[Garnel Ironheart]

Using the death of her relatives during the Holocaust to prove her Jewishness is useless. After all, the Nazis, y"sh, also targeted gypsies and gays. Should those two groups get automatic citzienship in Israel? How many non-Jews who had a Jewish great-grandfather somewhere in the past were killed? Are they suddenly Jewish?

At any rate, clearly this young lady didn't realize that the next step was to either produce the required kesuobs (which would have just led to another demand) or a large amount of American money (which would have cut the red tape in half instantly)

[harold]

It is one relating to the unavailability of civil marriage in Israel

I am a believer in civil marriages if one wants one. I am however interested in the conversion issue as it relates to the Law of Return and in a Jewish marriage. To force people to do an end around just to get married is rather silly, give the civil marriage option and if they want a “Jewish one” later they can work on “upgrading it” if they wish.

[harold]

After all, the Nazis, y"sh, also targeted gypsies and gays.

Maybe that is why we are so busy here with gays and their parades. There have been quite a few FM stories as of late about them.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Let me turn this around, Garnel. Suppose the Nazi courts required that in order to prove one to be Jewish, the Gestapo, or the SS, needed to produce proof of one's Jewishness going back three or four generations before sending the person to die in a concentration camp.

There be about six million less victims of the Holocaust. (As for gays, the Nazis thought they could "cure" them so not many gays actually were murdered. Gypsies were another story.)

To get back to the point, the first thing Israel has to do to get right with me (not that they would give a hoot in hell) would be to make civil marriages the law of the land, and vouchsafe them the same rights and privileges that a religious marriage currently has.

Let the rabbis squeal like the stuck pigs they are.

[Yosef ben Matiya]

Hillary could get married in Israel if she just went throught the "red tape" just like all others. Everybody in Israel has to deal with red tape daily, "Hareidi" or otherwise.

I do not agree, BTDT!
this thing u dismiss as mere red tape (though u admit it sucks) is not only unacceptable in today's society, but is also unacceptable in halacha as the oppression of your brother. Hona-ah. A shunde.

[effie]

The Nazis pretty much looked the other way as to homosexuality. Those arrested were arrested because they were trade unionists, socialists, communists, Jews or any other person deemed undesirable, who happened to be homosexual.

[David]

Please explain to me - didn't Moshe Rabeinu marry outside the faith, and she never converted, and Moshe' 2 sons were therefore the child of a non-Jew, so why is it called k'das Moshe?

[Mr. Apikoros]

Well, considering that the Big Kahuna there was gay himself, that wouldn't be surprising, although he killed off Ernst Rohm because he thought Rohm would out him.

[Radical Feminist]

who knows writes "They are the new Amalek."
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. The Beit Din of Israel are destroying the Jewish people.

[jay]

There's an issue that's very relevant: power. When they call the Judaism of anyone into question and demand a conversion, they impose their standards of Jewish practice on that individual. Additionally, they reserve the right to retroactively annul that conversion at any time. So one need not necessarily assume that they truly believe the Jewish heritage of such an individual is questionable. They may well see it as an opportunity to impose the Haredi lifestyle on such people.

[Radical Feminist]

Does anyone know if their are people now in Israel actively trying to create civil marriage in Israel? I would love to see FM do an article on that.
My dream would be a judge who creates a Ministry of Secular marriages. The Ministry then offers you the Rabbi or person of your choice to officiate the wedding (effective immediately). I have this vision of thousands of Jews running to the Ministry of Civil marriages and grabbing what ever Reform or Massorti Rabbi they can find. This kind of competition is what Israel needs. the problem is that the Beit Din are paid a comfortable salary and don't need to change. Here in the USA we have competition and that has lead to progress. If a RAbbi or Shul does not give you what you want or need you simply cross the street and go to the next shul and make sure to bring your wallet.

[alternative childcare]

harold, you are a jerk on every front. The mother remarried with a non-Jew after the child was born, why is that the girl's fault? Secondly, your crack about gypsies and other victims of the Nazis is revolting.

[harold]

My dream would be a judge who creates a Ministry of Secular marriages. The Ministry then offers you the Rabbi or person of your choice to officiate the wedding (effective immediately). I have this vision of thousands of Jews running to the Ministry of Civil marriages and grabbing what ever Reform or Massorti Rabbi they can find

No! a civil marriage is a civil one. No Rabbi is involved for that would bring it back into a religious wedding.

To handle the "thousands" of marriages I would have it be an on-line process with a generic marriage vow "spoken" and the response recorded and filed as an mp3 file. After the "ceremony” is completed, a picture is snapped with a webcam, a marriage certificate get printed in triplicate (this is a govt after all) and signed by all parties concerned. Mazel Tov!

[harold]

Secondly, your crack about gypsies and other victims of the Nazis is revolting

No, the crack was about gays. I have no beef with the gypsies - and as you yourself noted it was a "crack" a form of humor.

Guys lighten up, we are not making policy here, we are nobodies killing some spare time except for Mr. Rosenberg who is making a living (hopefully) from this.

[rabbidw]

My letter appearing in this weeks Jewish Week exactly on point:

On Conversion, Two Reminders

Tuesday, July 27, 2010

Rabbi David A. Willig

The conversion problem could be solved very simply if someone would remind the haredim of two things. One, that the Knesset is not a halachic body. The Knesset’s definition of a Jew is a political definition for the purposes of the Law of Return. It is, simply, if you are considered a Jew in your country of origin, you will be considered a Jew for the purposes of the Law of Return. In other words, if Hitler would kill you, the Jewish state will take you in.

Second, the haredim must be reminded that never since the Maccabees have rabbis turned to the police power of the state to enforce their interpretation of halacha. The powers of the rabbi rested in his persuasive ability, and, in rare cases, the communal cherem [ostracism], most famously used for Spinoza and Mordechai Kaplan.

In regard to converts, no one would ever dream of telling a haredi rabbi that he must recognize any conversion that does not meet his halachic standards. But at the same time, the haredi rabbi cannot use the power of the state to enforce his halachic interpretation on those who differ in halachic conclusions. So any rabbi can perform marriages, as he feels is halachically appropriate.

An invitation to chaos? Not really. It works in America . Every rabbi can choose to marry or bury as each sees halachically appropriate. The rabbi may want to investigate the family tree. That is entirely appropriate. But, as has been the case since Hillel and Shammai, some rabbis will be stringent and some will be lenient, and the world will continue.

Congregation Aviv Hadash

[seymour]

Hareidi" or otherwise. It's a sucky society that way.

Posted by: Been There Done That | July 30, 2010 at 09:41 AM

not true i do not think they ask a heridie a few generations of documents

[IH]

There is a very serious problem that is being exposed through these anecdotes.

For more, see the Rivkah Lubitch pieces:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3896261,00.html and http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3913244,00.html

as well as http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/07/rabbinutes-unprecidented-new-jewish-id-demands-blocking-marriages-jewish-immigrants-say-234.html

If this continues, the ramifications will be far more severe -- as a practical matter -- than intermarriage is today; it impacts the progeny of those who are part of klal yisrael today and wish to ensure its continuity.

As Rivkah Lubitch so correctly states: "I wonder: Could the investigator prove that he’s Jewish? Can the dayanim - who are now questioning whether tens of thousands of people are Jewish – prove that they’re Jews? Is this something that can even be proven? Let the Jew who can prove that he’s Jewish step forward."

[Nobody]

Shmarya stepping up his rhetoric.

But who exactly is "we," if you're still living in the galut as an "american," Shmarya?

[Shmarya]

But who exactly is "we," if you're still living in the galut as an "american," Shmarya?

We would be all non-haredi Jews.

But, more specifically with regard to me, we would be my father's much older sisters, who worked with Golda Meir (when she was Goldie Meyerson) raising money for Pioneer Women. We would be one of my gggrandfathers, known throughout Europe as an illui and gadol, who was one of the first rabbis to back the nascent Zionist movement. We would be one of grandfathers, who paid to ship hundreds of rifles to the Haganah. We would be me, who helped send far more Jews to Israel than you ever could dream of, and who himself made aliyah and lived in Israel. And this is an abbreviated list.

[ML]

Let's do the math.

Moses and Rivka get married and have 5 kids.

Of those kids, one gets the ketubah when they die.

That child has 5 kids, one gets bubbe and zaide's ketubah when they die.

That child gets married and has 5 kids, one gets that original ketubah when passed on.

Now you tell me the chances that a Jew has documents going back four generations to prove their Jewishness. Can you do the math?

[Streimel Shmuley]

The best peeples have the purest bloot. Our enemies new that and that is why they made up this "reform" Judaism to torment the Yidden with impurities. The rabbenim are fighting to make us pure and holy again so that we can be a light to the nations of the world.

[state of disgust]

These people think they still live in the shtetl where everyone knows everyone else going back four generations. That is why they choose this standard. They wish to turn Israel into an idealized vision of what they thought the "grand" life was like.
Time for these people to get with the program or leave the country.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Streimel Shmuley,I'm very sorry to inform you that you are a cretin!

[Radical Feminist]

Streimel Shmuley: have you looked at the DNA evidence on European Jewry on the mothers side, referred to as MtDNA? Its over 50% gentile. And the diseases associated with too much intermarriage amongst Jewish families. Not a pretty picture. Trust me I am a doctor.

http://www.powershow.com/view/1d746-N2M2N/Disease_Linkages_and_the_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve
http://web.mac.com/lmort/Vivian_Kahn_Family_Website/Great_Aunt_Katrine.html

[Radical Feminist]

More info on the myth of racial purity in the Jewish people.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZOWDPfWMyLIJ:jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/2010/01/jewish-genes-what-haplogroup-could-they.html+daughters+of+eve+mtdna+jews+middle+eastern&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Been There Done That]

The point is that Israelis tend to be more obnoxious that Americans can tolerate.

All of Shmarya's wailings about the obnoxiousness of Hareidim don't show Hareidim to be any more obnoxious than their secular co-citizens. We should just substitute "Israeli" for "Hareidi" in all of Shmayra's pieces, and then everything will be in proper context.

In other words, Hareidi Israelis behaving badly are just Israelis with black hats behaving like Israelis. Gay Israelis being obnoxious are just Israelis (that call themselves gay) being Israelis. Feminist Israelis being obnoxious are Israelis being Israelis who also claim to be feminists. Obnoxious Israeli Lubavichers are just Lubavichers living in Israel and trying to fit in.

[Radical Feminist]

Been there done that

Okay okay, so now how about we substitute Israeli for Jewish.

[Hometown Postville]

Forgive my naivety, but this just sounds like a mortal man reveling in power. Could someone give a brief explanation to this non-Jew how your "Jewishness" is determined? Logically speaking, we have no control over ancestors who may have shamed their families by marrying into other races/cultures. Isn't what's in your heart what matters the most? For all we know, someone 10 generations back may have falsified records to allow inclusion.

[ruthie]

my mother who comes from a family of gerer chasidim, one of eight children.
her sister married vishnitz. very fine fine family.
all good.
very very good.
she answered me once after a question...."everyone is mixed"
so true...from way back when we really don't know.
but of all the countries in the world, israel has no right to stop this woman after all four...or even one...died in the war/camps/forests/trucks etc.
who are these idiot rabbis? pardon

[Friar Yid]

Using the death of her relatives during the Holocaust to prove her Jewishness is useless. After all, the Nazis, y"sh, also targeted gypsies and gays. Should those two groups get automatic citzienship in Israel? How many non-Jews who had a Jewish great-grandfather somewhere in the past were killed? Are they suddenly Jewish?

Stupid strawman. No one claimed having a Shoah relative gave you automatic Jewish identity. However it is insulting to tell her that it is essentially "her problem" that she doesn't have her relatives' documents due to the minor inconvenience of World War Two having occurred and wiped them out.

Even if the rabbis are going to stick to their guns, they can at least be apologetic about it and try to help point people who have "slipped through the cracks" in the right direction. Instead it sounds like they enjoy finding excuses to disqualify people and toss them out on their ear.

Rachmones? Not here.

[Friar Yid]

The rabbenim are fighting to make us pure and holy again so that we can be a light to the nations of the world.

Given that their present approach seems to be "one step forward, five steps back", it looks like they've got their work cut out for them.

[Bilaam's Ass]

Haredim have now shown by their ACTIONS that they are Gilgulei Erev Rav.

[Abracadabra]

Hometown Postville -

This is one (of many) areas where Jewish faith differs from other faiths.

Judaism is not only a faith, but also a race. And this is where it gets complicated. It is very hard to explain, and I'm not a scholar, but I'll do my best. Those with clearer knowledge are free to add or correct me if I'm wrong.

For the sake of this explanation, we are going to say that there are 4 different types of Jews religiously: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Secular (non-religious).

Orthodox and Conservative Judaism believe that a Jew is racially always a Jew if his or her mother was a Jew. This is how Jews have determined their Jewishness for roughly 4,000 years (since G-d gave the Jews the Bible at Mt Sinai). Reform Judaism believes that a Jew is a Jew if his or her mother OR father is a Jew. This is a NEW belief which Reform Judaism introduced (that it can go by the father in addition to it going by the mother). It is relatively new in that it was introduced in the past 100 years (out of a 4,000-year-old heritage, that's a drop in the bucket).

Examples of the above:
(a) If someone's mother is Jewish but their father is a non-Jew, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism would consider them to be Jewish. Reform Judaism would also consider them to be Jewish.
(b) If someone's father is Jewish but their mother is a non-Jew, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism would NOT consider them to be Jewish. Reform Judaism WOULD consider them to be a Jew.

Secular Jews generally do not practice Judaism as a faith and for the most part are not believers in the Jewish faith. Some are proud to be Jewish as Jews have existed as a race and a people for thousands of years, and some don't care either way. But Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism will consider secular Jews to be Jewish, even if they are not practicing the religion, as long as they are Jewish by birth. This is true even if the Secular Jew converted to another religion, as long as they are Jewish by birth. Orthodox, Conservative and Reform all do NOT determine Jewishness by what is in a person's heart, or what they practice, but rather by who their ancestors are. Further, if a non-religious Jew "converted" to another religion, there is no "conversion" process for them to return to becoming a Jew or to practicing Judaism. Judaism (all 3 categories) believes that someone who converted to another religion never ceased to be a Jew (even if they were theologically misguided for a while). I would add to the above that all of this does NOT mean that a Jew who converted to another religion will not face Jewish public anger or not be discriminated against within their Jewish group, but according to Jewish law they are still a Jew.

Outside of the State of Israel, most Jews who are not religious tend to intermarry with non-Jews within 2-4 generations and are lost to the Jewish race and the Jewish faith after 2-4 few generations. The State of Israel is the ONLY place in the world which is the exception to this. In the State of Israel Jews can remain non-religious and still will only marry Jews simply because almost everyone living there is Jewish (even if they are not religious).

The only time that what someone BELIEVES in their heart matters is when a non-Jew wants to convert INTO Judaism. They then need to go through a conversion process, and within that conversion process they have to declare their faith in the G-d of Moses, the Jewish Bible, the Jewish beliefs, etc.

After a non-Jew converts to Judaism, Jews believe that the convert's decendants are Jewish.

So, as you can see, Judaism is a race, but it is the laws of the Jewish faith that defines who is included in that race. The Chareidi are included in "Orthodox" although are often called "Ultra Orthodox" probably because they raise the bar quite high in all matters of practice, and determination of Jewishness is one of those matters.

What you are reading about in the above article, and the comments, is about what is going on specifically in the State of Israel - and it is indeed a power struggle. The Chareidi rabbis want to control who can be considered a Jew in the State of Israel, and who can get licensed to get married in the State of Israel being that Israel has no legal civil marriage available for it's citizens outside of religious marriage. The power to grant a marriage license in Israel is currently in the hands of the Chareidi Rabbis, and they are flexing their muscles in many ways and are being accused of abusing their powers. It's a problem because 70% of Israeli Jews are not Chareidi, and many Israeli Jews are Secular. Hence the politics.

In the USA all of the above is not a problem. Jews in the USA get a civil marriage license in the state in the USA in which they live, and if they are religious, they get married according to their religious customs (Orthodox, Conservative or Reform) with a rabbi officiating at their wedding.

I hope I've clarified things somewhat for you (and not confused you even more).

[Dr. Dave]

Why do we let non Jews - i.e. chareidim determine who is Jewish?

How do I know chareidim are not jewish?

Easy. It's in the gemara. יבמות עט

שלשה סימנים יש באומה זו: הרחמנים, והביישנין, וגומלי חסדים.

The Jewish nation is distinguished by three characteristics: they are merciful, they are modest, and they perform acts of loving-kindness. (Yevamot 79a)

By their actions towards converts and fellow Jews, the chareidim display none of these traits.

They therefore have no chazakah as to their own Jewish identity.

They cannot be judges, witnesses nor have any control over Jews, unless they can prove their own Jewishness back to the time of Moshe.

And as pointed out, even then it will be as part of the erev rav, the vast multitudes of people that joined with the Children of Israel in the exodus, but evince none of Abraham and Sarah's midah (characteristic) of gemilut chasadim - acts of loving-kindness.

[Yechezkel - 1a7b]

http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2010/07/what-disgrace.html

[Yankele]

Cool it, people. Her grandfather's uncle was Nahum Sokolov. Big deal. Sokolov is a street in the city where I live, as it is in nearly every city in Israel. So her grandfather's uncle was a street about a kilometer from my house. Big deal - and irrelevant. My experience is that the rabbinate here checks the background of all people born outside of Israel - and they are generally reasonable about the proof of Jewishness they require. You are hearing her story here - and somehow I am supposed to be impressed that her grandfather's uncle was Mr. Sokoloff. Gimme a break.

[Mr. Apikoros]

So, Wankele, I take it that you don't believe Hillary isn't Jewish enough to suit you and your fellow orthodicks, because there are a lot of Sokolov Streets in Israeli cities?

This story is absolute proof that the rabbinate in Israel is anything but reasonable about who is and who isn't Jewish.

[Wankele]

Dear Mr. Apikoros,
Just because you are an apikoros does not mean you have to be stupid. There is no such thing for the present purpose as "the rabbinate in Israel". Each local rabbinate is independent in giving teudot ravakut for marriage purposes. And based on personal experience they are quite reasonable about what they require. Neither of us is acquainted with Hillary. But her story doesn't wash. Herzilia is not Bnai Brak. And if she has to bring Rechov Sokolov into the story I can't help thinking that something is fishy here. I am not charedi and I find much of what they do to be offensive. But in this case my intuition clearly points to a problematic young lady looking to sound off.
Thanks for the new name, Api.

[DaveDaytona]

There seem to be two elements to complaints like this.

The first is that the imposition of Orthodox standards is wrongfully preventing people in a purportedly democratic society from exercising their religious and personal freedom. And that's a valid complaint.

But the other element is "Well, my grandfather's aunt's cousin was Jewish, and I feel Jewish, so how dare the Orthodox not consider me Jewish?"

This drives me up a wall. If the Orthodox shouldn't impose their standards on your behaviour, why should you impose your feelings on their theology?

My great-grandfather was a US citizen, and my politics are pro-American. If I say so to US Immigration, will they give me a passport? Or do I still have to stand in line, fill out forms, take a test, swear an oath, and all the rest of that medieval bureaucratic crap?

[Phil]

I don't think any if us are in a position to judge this woman's Jewishness and having an antecedent like sokolow is completely irrelevant to the story. Notwithstanding that of course there should be an option for civil marriage in Israel, the rabbanut are entitled to check properly and a dozen Sokolows won't trump four conservative marriages and a conservative get.

But the general point should be that the one time that most jews in Israel have any connection with rabbis and and the one time most secular Jews meet orthodox Jews, that the experience at the rabbinate when registering for a marriage should be so negative.

Even with a whole bunch of kosher kesuvos going back generations for both myself and my wife, the experience of the rabbinate itself that we had in jerusalem was just so negative and conveyed exactly the wrong impression to a young couple.