Dishonesty In The Name Of Science: Association Of Orthodox Jewish Scientists Hosts Anti-Gay Activist, Covers Up Abuse Allegations Against His Organization

A video of 2 young Orthodox men who complain of abuse at the hands of a JONAH therapist caused AOJS to cancel the appearances last weekend at AOJS's annual convention of JONAH founder Arthur Abba Goldberg and a doctoral student meant to rebut him. But in a last minute reversal, AOJS let Goldberg speak without any rebuttal. And no mention was made of the contents of the video.

Controversy Over Therapy For ‘Curing’ Homosexuals
Orthodox scientists’ group cancels, then reinstates, speaker on ‘reparative’ treatment as video surfaces.
Steve Lipman • New York Jewish Week

A controversial treatment that is supposed to “cure” gays of their same-sex feelings — which has credence in parts of the Orthodox community — took another step toward respectability this week when it received apparent approval from a group of Orthodox scientists.

A recently posted YouTube video of two young Orthodox-raised men who complain of psychological abuse at the hands of a “reparative therapy” practitioner originally played a role in causing the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists to cancel the appearance last weekend of Arthur Goldberg, a leading advocate of reparative therapy, at the organization’s annual convention.

But, in a sudden reversal, the AOJS let Goldberg speak, in the convention’s final session on Sunday. Goldberg’s views apparently were not challenged — either from members of a hastily arranged panel or from the more than 100 people in the audience. And no mention was made of the contents of the video.

 

In the video, posted on YouTube two weeks ago by the gay activist group Truthwinsout.org, Ben Unger and Chaim Levin allege that Alan Downing, a “life coach” who serves as a therapist for JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality), had them remove their clothes in front of a mirror — with Downing standing behind them — as part of therapy to change from gay to straight. Levin also states that Downing encouraged him to touch his own genitals “to increase my masculinity.”

Downing denied the allegations but did not offer an explanation of exactly what took place during the sessions.

Unger, who says he spent two years with JONAH in an attempt “to ‘cure’ my homosexuality,” states that Goldberg had assured him that “we can turn you from gay to straight.” Downing is the only therapist mentioned in the video.

A link to the “JONAH’s ‘Ex-Gay’ Psychological Striptease” video was included in e-mail messages to leaders of the AOJS in the days before the annual convention, warning them against including Goldberg’s presentation on JONAH.
 
The messages warned that Goldberg, founder and co-director of the Jersey City, N.J.-based organization, has a criminal background, has misled clients about the therapy’s effectiveness and has employed people who use practices that border on abuse.

In response, AOJS leaders held an emergency meeting at midnight Thursday night. The result was that the invitations to Goldberg, and to an Orthodox doctoral student who was to deliver a rebuttal to Goldberg’s presentation, were rescinded. But Goldberg, who unexpectedly showed up at the convention, in Southbury, Conn., was allowed to speak, at the urging of several convention attendees who were interested in his topic.

“We do not make [scheduling] decisions based on YouTube. Anybody can put anything on YouTube,” Dr. Elliot Udell, AOJS program chairman, said of the decision to let Goldberg speak.

To put his descriptions of JONAH’s work into a religious and scientific context, AOJS had Goldberg share the podium with three Orthodox men who have backgrounds in mental health fields and the sciences.

Goldberg gave “a pep talk — no statistics, no science, no [therapeutic] techniques,” said Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a former AOJS president who serves as the organization’s halachic adviser and spiritual guide. Goldberg, the rabbi said, cited supportive biblical verses and conducted a telephone interview with an anonymous male who identified himself as a satisfied client of JONAH.

AOJS was open to Goldberg’s views, Rabbi Tendler said, because Goldberg presented his work as based on the belief “that someone has the ability to repent and to change. Reparative therapy is known in our tradition as repentance or teshuvah.”

Rabbi Tendler said he never viewed the critical video or heard what was in it. Had he known of the charges that Goldberg sanctioned practices that “are against halacha … he would not have spoken,” Rabbi Tendler said.

JONAH has helped “thousands of men, women, spouses and families,” Goldberg told The Jewish Week in an e-mail interview. “Since we only work with those who have unwanted same-sex attractions, we prefer thinking of the work as helping someone strengthen their concept of self and change their sexual attractions. ‘Cured’ is an inappropriate term as it makes homosexual issues appear to be a sickness.”

Goldberg stood by Dowling’s technique as described by Levin and Unger in the YouTube video, saying, “The video misrepresents common therapeutic techniques used by many types of practitioners who work with men with body image wounds and shame; they are often very successful.”

At the conference, Goldberg received a polite reception, with many of the audience buying copies of his book, “Light in the Closet: Torah, Homosexuality, and the Power to Change,” after the speech, an AOJS official said.

An organization like JONAH that does not employ certified mental health professionals “has no accountability,” and is not subject to peer review or lawsuits when professional standards are violated, said Eric Harari, a doctoral student at Fordham University who was to give the rebuttal to Goldberg’s presentation.

Goldberg’s “unopposed” speech about JONAH was “bad science … and bad religion,” said Rabbi Steven Greenberg, author of “Wrestling with God & Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition” (University of Wisconsin Press, 2004), who did not attend the AOJS convention.

The first Orthodox rabbi to publicly identify himself as gay, Rabbi Greenberg says JONAH’s claims that therapy can eliminate homosexuality appeals to “Jews who would prefer to see it as a curable disease.”

The AOJS panel, seven months after a historic public forum at Yeshiva University that featured gay students and alumni from the school, is the latest sign of increased interest in the Orthodox community about homosexual Jews who seek to maintain their ties to their families and Judaism.

And the AOJS event raised questions: does a speech at a conference under Orthodox auspices indicate support for reparative therapy or its practitioners? Is the AOJS convention a sign that reparative therapy is gaining acceptance in the Orthodox community?

Most experts say it is not effective, many health care professionals say it can be harmful, and some Orthodox organizations support it.

“It hurts people,” Levin told The Jewish Week. The JONAH method of “therapy” is crazy … brainwashing … psychological abuse,” Unger said.

“Not only is it not going to work” — especially with individuals who have felt a same-sex attraction their entire life — “but it makes the person worse,” says Dr. Samuel Klagsbrun, a psychiatrist who often treats clients from the haredi community.

However, support for reparative therapy remains in parts of the haredi and Modern Orthodox communities.

The JONAH website includes recommendation from the Rabbinical Council of America, the central organization of Modern Orthodox rabbis, and from the Jerusalem branch of Aish HaTorah, a prominent outreach yeshiva.

Neither the RCA nor Aish HaTorah responded to a question from The Jewish Week about whether, in light of the new video, they still endorse JONAH.

“Some individuals … who are greatly troubled by homosexual desires and thoughts … turn to psychotherapists in the hopes that their feelings and desires can be modified,” said Rabbi Simcha Feuerman, president of Nefesh International, a network of Orthodox mental health professionals. “While not conclusive, there is some research to support certain modalities of therapy for some individuals.”

Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, a psychotherapist and executive vice president emeritus of the Orthodox Union, said he has “reached no conclusions” about the efficacy of reparative therapy. “I have spoken extensively to Orthodox or formerly Orthodox gays and lesbians,” the rabbi said in an e-mail message, “and have heard a range of attitudes, emotions and reports on therapeutic successes or failures.”

“Since 2000,” according to the JONAH website, “JONAH has provided resources, referrals, mentoring and coaching services, group support, Shabbatons, seminars and outreach to thousands of impacted individuals.”

The website does not offer a staff directory, but online articles and interviews with Levin and Unger do not refer to any JONAH therapist other than Downing.

According to the Truth Wins Out website, Goldberg was disbarred in New Jersey and sentenced to 18 months in prison in 1987 for investor fraud, and Downing is an “’ex-gay’ life coach … who admits he is still attracted to men.”

Downing, who declined to be interviewed, said in a statement: “Regarding the video recently posted by two men identifying themselves as former clients of mine, I deny the allegations of malicious intent that are made in this video. I also emphatically deny the falsehoods being promulgated by activists and commentators; their accusations are not true. I am deeply concerned about the use of these young men to advance a political agenda, and the impact this publicity will have on them. I plead with those who choose to use them in this way to put their well being ahead of political goals.”

Udell, the conference’s program chairman, said the organization was not aware of the controversy surrounding JONAH and reparative therapy when Goldberg approached it earlier this year, offering to speak.

The 60-year-old organization, which numbers several hundred scientists and physicians among its members, agreed to hear Goldberg because of interest in the homosexual issue, which has become increasingly visible in Orthodox circles in recent years.

Many Orthodox families whose children have spoken of homosexual feelings are referred to JONAH, which calls itself “the only Jewish-based organization specifically dealing with the healing of homosexuality,” Udell said. “A lot of rabbis [in yeshivot and day schools] have sent their students to JONAH. We feel it was important to air [JONAH’s] point of view.”

He and other AOJS leaders vetted JONAH by reading its website and speaking with people who said they were satisfied with their experiences as its clients, “but we didn’t realize it was going to be controversial.”

Goldberg’s appearance at the convention did not constitute AOJS support of JONAH, Udell said. “It wasn’t a scientific presentation,” hence did not require the standard of empirical proof that other speeches at a scientific gathering usually have.

Alleged Abuse At Orthodox-Founded 'Cure The Gays' Program.

Comments

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

AOJS is a kefira organization, some of its members believe that the world is sphere and God who said "four corners of the earth" did not know Cosmology.

Some of them believe that world exists more than 6000 years and that dinosaurs roamed the earth. Kofrim sh'baikar ! Gevald !

[Yochanan Lavie]

Why is there not an Association of Orthodox Jewish Poets, or painters, or novelists, or filmmakers?

[DK]

"had them remove their clothes in front of a mirror — with Downing standing behind them — as part of therapy to change from gay to straight. Levin also states that Downing encouraged him to touch his own genitals “to increase my masculinity.”

How do they know this isn't an effective part of the cure? Remember the story about the rabbi who took off all his clothes and pretended to be a rooster in order to bring a king's son back to reality? Well, this sounds to me like a variation of that approach, and it's too bad these young men didn't just give it a shot.

[SJ]

It would seem to me that as long as they're not like a news or an academic organization then they're allowed to push their agenda. You know they're an orthodox jewish org, they make no claim to be balanced as far as I know anyways, and everyone knows what they're going to push.

I'm a conservative blogger, a few liberals cried that I'm brainwashed by Fox News / tea parties, but I was conservative before I started watching Fox (and obviously before the tea parties existed). For it to make sense, I have to argue against extant liberal positions, however, since I am not a news or academic org, I have no obligation to present the liberal argument on an equal footing as mine.

I do think homosexuality is a sickness, however Jonah's methods seem rather dubious to say the least. lol A better approach would probably be a program that helps homosexuals interact with the opposite gender (noooo I don't mean "sex therapy," I mean exactly the way it reads, how to interact). A culture of נשדכים to pun a word is probably going to be ill equipped to render such a service.

Also, an important point, is that a homosexual impulse here and there does not make someone gay, and it is wrong for LGBT kind of people to confuse people that way.

Sending someone to get "cured" over one impulse is an overreaction, kids instead should learn that on an eventual basis they're going to be interacting with the opposite gender, which uuum, in the orthodox commnuity may not be too possible.

The state of human biology is unequivocally that male female copulation is a plesurable experience, it's both a divine and evolutionary imperitive that it is this way. DON'T TELL ME that it is possible for someone to not be straight, it is just the gay agenda trying to reproduce themselves by indeed brainwashing adults and kids.

[SJ]

* commnunity

[A. Nuran]

Typical of Right Wing and religious "Science". Both world views are completely dependent on an elaborate tissue of fantasies. Anything which threatens their little bubble must be wrong. Since both of them are, by definition, mired in an ideal past which almost certainly never was both are allergic to intellectual change of any sort.

So when they try to do science it is always tendentious. The outcome must is never in doubt, so the facts must be changed to fit them. And since the outcome is always based on an fictionalized picture of the past the cognitive dissonance is deafening.

SJ and the AOJS just know that homosexuality is a disease. It doesn't matter what the evidence shows or what current research indicates. That's what their political and religious dogma demands. So it doesn't matter what we've learned 3000 years ago or last week. And if they can find one person who parrots their Party Line they are perforce going to believe him no matter how thin his credentials or how execrable his research.

That's just the way Movement Conservatives and Fundamentalists approach Science. We should expect nothing better of them.

[SJ]

Here we go again. Argue that "conservative is brainwashed" instead of responding to points. It's lame already. Good luck calling me a religious fundamenalist since I believe evolution occurred and does not contradict the Bible. A. Nuran procedes to do so anyways.

Modern psychology is screwed up because it makes a disease out of every nonsense diverse aspect of a personality, but a true mental disorder of a guy wanting to spend the rest of his life with someone other than an attractive woman (and all homosexuality) is somehow considered "normal" by the left.

Liberalism is a death cult that when it comes to the issue of hetero/homosexuality wants to IGNORE that male-female sex is automatically going to be pleasurable, and then they want to accuse conservatives of ignoring science. I don't ignore science. A. Nuran does.

[SJ]

* community omg typo -.-

[yudel]

well SJ is typical. He speaks without knowledge of anything. The article by the way points out the ignorance of JONAH and all programs that are like this which are not sanction by the APA. It also points out Try to learn about things before you speak. It helps.

[SJ]

>> well SJ is typical. He speaks without knowledge of anything.

Hey yudel fuck you, you don't know me.

[chaim.]

SJ -
jerking off is also "pleasurable" by your definition of pleasure, but that is not at issue. the fact that a gay man can attain orgasm in a vagina does not solve the issue. what about love, attraction, romance? are these unimportant? not also part of "pleasure"? you reduce the matter to an absurdity that has nothing to do with the real issues and then build a pseudo-rational discourse on it. this is precisely the sort of illusion-discourse that is the tool of conservatives with an agenda and without the guts to just put it on the table for what it is, utterly irrational.

[SJ]

ok Chaim, in your brilliant Einstein logic of determining whether or not homosexuality/gay marriage is ok, you bring up the completely relevant issue of ... wait for it ... JERKING OFF!!! ROFL.

And then you admit the same thing that I say...

>> the fact that a gay man can attain orgasm in a vagina

which flies in the face of the liberal viewpoint that it is possible for somebody to be gay and not straight.

It seems Chaim, you reduced the issue for me. Perhaps you are a conservative with an agenda without the guts to jut put it on the table for what it is, or perhaps; * gasp * conservatives have a point.

What about love, attraction, romance? Heterosexuality is better than homosexuality. Homosexuality does not provide the full experience of human existence. Only when bonded with someone of the opposite gender can someone attain their full potential. (that being said, I'm not like a shidduch supporter or anything like that, people should only get married when they are ready and I'm for people going on dates themselves without the help of matchmakers)

[A E ANDERSON]

I don't think you need a psychotherapist to understand that some folks like dick, and some like to take it up the rear. Gezunterheit! What's wrong with a little diversity in this world? Just keep your wandering hands far away from my proctological regions, please.

[the farshlepte krenk]

I couldn't say it any better, Chaim -(LK)

[the farshlepte krenk]

Let me translate what the Shmuck from Jonah said into English for you:

"Only when bonded with someone"

-Only when you attach yourself to another person

"of the opposite gender"

-who has been conditioned to frame their cultural and social interactions in a polar fashion to the manner in which you have been conditioned to frame your own interactions.

"can someone attain their full potential"

OK, you got me there: I have absolutely no idea what you mean by 'full potential'. Do you care to elaborate? Do you mean run at the highest potential speed? Earn the highest potential salary? Climb the highest potential ladder? Memorize the most Mishnayos?

[SJ]

Hey shmuck, 1) I am not from Jonah. 2) I am not Orthodox. 3) I criticized Jonah's methods in this very thread.

It is a liberal lie that heterosexuality and straight marriage is a function of culture and not biology. Straight marriage is very much a function of biology, and homosexuality and gay marriage is an attempt at ignoring biology.

By reaching full potential, I mean that becoming parents is apart of the normal lifecycle.

[jay]

It's a liberal lie? I seriously doubt all the Libertarians who support freedom of choice in marriage would agree with that assessment.

[Retired YI Rabbi]

I know Arthur Abba Goldberg personally and am familiar with his work.

I have advised him, when presenting, to present data. Unfortunately, there is little data on the successes of Reparative Therapy as it has not been sufficiently studied. Goldberg does have anecdotal evidence in the men and women JONAH has helped.

I think we can all agree that Reparative Therapy deserves a Scientific Study to determine its efficacy in those with unwanted same-sex attraction.

[Shmarya]

Unfortunately, there is little data on the successes of Reparative Therapy as it has not been sufficiently studied.

Actually, all the independent work done on it shows pretty clearly that it does not work.

Only bizarre ideologues – like many Orthodox rabbis, for example – who decide first that homosexuality is an illness that can be cured seem to believe this BS works.

[Jeff]

SJ, you don't know what you're talking about. You're making a fool of yourself. Just stop.

[Critical minyan]

I know many orthodox homosexuals, while Goldberg claims to have cured thousands.
If you combine the three groups, open orthodox homosexuals, closetted orthodox gays, and this third group of cured gays, we can assume that 70-85% of orthodox Jews, for some reason, love sucking shmeckle.

[chaim.]

SJ -

you have yet to say anything based on science. all of your claims here are your subjective opinions, which you seem to believe gives them the force of fact. again, basic conservative il-logic.

[SJ]

Ok great liberal logic by crying that the other guy don't know what he's talking about after you get your proverbial asses kicked in this discussion.

[chaim.]

its called not bothering to continue arguing with people who dont seem to grasp the distinction between fact and opinion.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Science vs. Silence
Apologies to Thomas Dolby:

It's schmo-etry in motion
He turned his tender lies to thee
As deep as any ocean
'bout homosexuality
Nu - but he blinded him with silence
"He blinded him with silence!"
And failed him in biology

When he's dancing close to him
"Blinding him with silence - silence!"
I can smell the bullshitting
"silence!"
"silence!"

Nu - but it's poetry in motion
and when he turned his lies to see
As deep as any ocean
It's homosexuality
He blinded him with silence
"He blinded him with silence!"
And failed him in the mikvah scene

When he's dancing next to him
"Blinding me with silence - silence!"
"silence!"
I can hear machinery
'Blinding him with silence - silence!"
"silence!"

It's poetry in motion
and now he's making love to thee
The Spherot in commotion
The profile on e-harmony
He blinded him with silence
"He blinded him with silence!"
And hit him with pornography

'Good heavens Reb Shapiro - you're beautiful!"

I don't believe it!
There he goes again!
He's straightened up and I can't find anything!
all my toys and leather
And blackmail notes
And antiquated notions
but - it's poetry in motion
And when he turned his lies to him
As deep as any ocean
It's homosexuality
Nu - he blinded him with silence
"He blinded him with silence!"
he blinded him with ...

[SJ]

you mean like the thing I said that you agreed with?

[rabbidw]

If someone is not conflicted, he is not going to go to JONAH or anyone else. If someone is conflicted, and you might think religion is a bunch of hogwash, and for the sake of this argument I'll grant your point, but he is still conflicted.
Homosexuality is not a yes no proposition. Every clinician knows there is a sliding scale, lets call it between 1-100. Let us assume that nothing can change those at the far end of the scale. It is reasonable to assume that some of those who are not at the far end of the scale can be helped to change.
Remember, the premise is if they did not wantb to change they would not be going to JONAH. So the only questions are whether JONAH can do harm, or only not help. Second, whether JONAH is the only game in town, or perhaps, as I suspect, therapists that are not single issue, that don't come to the therapy with an existing agenda, may be more helpful, even in terms of JONAH's agenda, let alone in terms of helping the individual client deal with his conflicts.
If therapy was like making cookies, anyone could do it.

[seymour]

SJ

one can argue that nature to survive needs that people have sex with the opposite sex.

However we know nature is not perfect, someone times people are born who cannot have kids, have other serious illness, or sever problems like down.

Therefore, why cannot you admit that some are born different and are attracted to the same sex. It might be a anomaly a mutant gene but it happens.

PS I am not saying homosexuality is like down syndrome, I just compared it to shoe Sj that no matter what5 he things nature does not always perform like he wants

[seymour]

if one is keeps track when science and religion clash tye record is 100% in science

no more needs to be said favor

[Jeff]

SJ, they didn't get their "asses kicked". Chaim is correct:

all of your claims here are your subjective opinions, which you seem to believe gives them the force of fact.

This is what you do; I've seen you do it numerous times. You tend to confuse your opinions with fact.

I'm not trying to belittle you; I'm just telling you, in a friendly manner - drop it.

[SJ]

Seymour, homosexual impulses does not make someone gay. Not being straight however, is scientifically impossible, something that Chaim kindly agreed with me on.

Jeff, feel free to discuss with me where you think I've gone wrong in what I said, but last I checked this is not the Jeff blog so I'm going to have to ignore you telling me to drop it.

[seymour]

why is it that orthodox Jews always seem to associate themselves with crooks and fraudsters

He pleaded guilty to three counts of mail fraud and one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States of America. In 1989, Goldberg was fined $100,000 and sentenced to 18 months in prison on conviction of fraud.[7] In 1995, he was barred from practicing law in New Jersey, as a disciplinary board unanimously concluded that "Goldberg's criminal convictions clearly and convincingly demonstrated his participation in activities that reflected adversely on his honesty, trustworthiness, and fitness as a lawyer."[10]

also

While attending New York University, Goldberg's son and the son of Elaine Berk both came out as gay. Goldberg and Berk found that much of the ex-gay movement was strongly associated with charismatic Christianity. Wanting a spiritual alternative for same-sex attracted Jews, they co-founded Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (JONAH).

[jay]

SJ-- there have been studies, for example involving the startle response in the limbic center of the brain---that documented neuroanatomy in lesbians that was closer to that of heterosexual MEN then that of heterosexual women. Other studies have indicated that identical twins have a greater chance of sharing the same sexual preference- be it either straight or gay. Additionally, MRI studies indicate that gay men and straight women have brain hemispheres of roughly equal size; whereas straight men and lesbians have larger right hemispheres then left hemispheres. These are peer reviewed and objective scientific studies. Google Scholar it yourself and verify it if you want. Just please don't throw a knee-jerk "liberal" dismissal back simply because you don't want to believe it.

[SJ]

Jay, that's not the issue.

the issues are two things

1) that male female sex is automatically going to give pleasure as a matter of biology so it's impossible for someone to not be straight.

2) Homosexual impulses don't make someone a homosexual, only the action.

bla bla brain scan yada yada peer reviewed ... establishing that someone can have homosexual impulses is already known. We don't need scientists for that.

[chaim.]

SJ-

"Seymour, homosexual impulses does not make someone gay. Not being straight however, is scientifically impossible, something that Chaim kindly agreed with me on."

you are either intentionally misinterpreting me or are a complete idiot. i said no such thing. the ability to ejaculate does not confer sexual identity. I said that it is possible for a gay man to ejaculate in a vagina, this is biologically possible. This does not make him a straight man, which was precisely my point. your definition of sexual identity has nothing at all to do with sexual identity, it has to do with the biological possibility of ejaculating; hence, as i said above, you have created an absurdly illogical reduction and passed it off as logical.

[SJ]

Chaim, you said the same thing I said in an above post. Also, that is not my argument. Reread.

[chaim.]

and, beyond that, by defining sexuality by ejaculation you have essentially deconstructed straightness anyway. if the ability to ejaculate is to have sexuality then heterosexuality and homosexuality are fundamentally equal, neither really exists. all that exists is simply the biological function of ejaculating, which would make any heterosexual also a homosexual insofar as it is as possible to orgasm with members of the same gender as of the opposite gender. Or, you might just have to revise your definition and, in doing so, admit that homosexuality actually exists and that you simply oppose it on religious (or otherwise) grounds without any rational justification

[SJ]

Ok Chaim, let's deconstruct your argument.

>> by defining sexuality by ejaculation you have essentially deconstructed straightness anyway.

I did not define sexuality by ejaculation. I was talking about copulation. Noone will seriously suggest that ejaculation and copulation are equal.

>> ejaculation you have essentially deconstructed straightness anyway. if the ability to ejaculate is to have sexuality then heterosexuality and homosexuality are fundamentally equal, neither really exists.

Now you're basing your counterpoint on something I didn't say. Also, suggesting straightness don't exist can be dismissed as being inherently absurd.

>> all that exists is simply the biological function of ejaculating.

Noone will seriously suggest that.

>> which would make any heterosexual also a homosexual insofar as it is as possible to orgasm with members of the same gender as of the opposite gender.

Absurd. You're trying to flip around my argument that all gays are automatically straight because people are biologically hardwired to copulate with the opposite gender into all straights are automatically gay because straightness don't really exist, and it simply doesn't work.

>> Or, you might just have to revise your definition and, in doing so, admit that homosexuality actually exists and that you simply oppose it on religious (or otherwise) grounds without any rational justification

I don't recall using religion to argue against homosexuality.

[jay]

SJ - you keep repeating the same two statements as if it were a mantra- and they have nothing to do with reality. We're not talking about impulses- it's an issue of brain hardwiring for consistent and repeated preference. but no point in talking to a wall...

[SJ]

Jay I only repeated to you in July 29, 2010 at 11:07 AM because you responded to a different issue.

Someone thinking that they're gay because of homosexual impulses is confusion. Human beings are biologically straight.

[Jeff]

Jeff, feel free to discuss with me where you think I've gone wrong in what I said, but last I checked this is not the Jeff blog so I'm going to have to ignore you telling me to drop it.

Fine, make a jackass of yourself.

I guess this is what happens when Kelsey isn't available to babysit you.

[SJ]

Being against homosexuality and viewing it as a choice is a mainstream conservative viewpoint. Unlike you Jeff, the other libs here were in a discussion with me that was productive to the extent that we were all able to get our views out; and I'm sure that it will give the objective reader alot to think about.

[Jeff]

There was nothing "productive" about it. Everyone here, except for Jay, has stopped engaging you - and I suspect he's finished as well - because you aren't offering an argument. All you're doing is repeating your opinions, over and over, as though they were established fact. This is what I mean; I've seen you do this before.

Being against homosexuality and viewing it as a choice is a mainstream conservative viewpoint.

If by "mainstream conservative" you mean the extremists who've commandeered the Right - yeah, I guess so.

When you make a statement like, "Human beings are biologically straight" - SJ, this doesn't mean anything. It seems to mean something to you, but it has no objective meaning. There doesn't seem to be any way to communicate this to you.

[SJ]

Jeff, there was a minimal amount of repeating that everyone did. Read the thread so that you can come to an informed conclusion.

Establishment Republicans don't talk about gay marriage or homosexuality since it's not a national issue at the moment, there's bigger fish to fry like Obamacare and immigration for example, but make no mistake, mainstream conservatives, and not a mere extremist fringe, are against homosexuality.

Human beings are biologically straight means exactly what it says.

[Retro Jordans]

If life is a quilt, then love should be a thread.

[jnsm]

Human beings are biologically straight.
Human beings are biologically right-handed.
Human beings are biologically white.

Try arguing now, SJ.

[Michael]

There are 122 mentions of "abominations" Gay Sodomy is the only “abomination” that warrants the death penalty.

As gross as bestiality is sodomy is worse because a least the sexual organs of male and female humans or animals are complementary.

The Bible says, "It is not good for man to be alone." It also says that a man should therefore "stick to his wife."

And as for a moral example as to who is a wife, someone said it succinctly, "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

There are many other places throughout the Bible condemning sexual orientation of all types.

God knew where civilization was headed and provided warnings about moral backsliding.

[zak]

Michael, the Bible and your God are all bullshit.