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August 01, 2010

Chelsea Clinton Married Under Chuppah By Rabbi, Minister

Chelsea clinto Marc Mezvinsky Her husband, Marc Mezvinsky, who is Jewish, wore a yarmulke and prayer shawl.

Rabbi co-officiates at Clinton wedding

Chelsea clinton Marc Mezvinsky NEW YORK (JTA) --
Chelsea Clinton was married under a chuppah in a ceremony co-officiated by a rabbi.

Rabbi James Ponet, head of the Joseph Slifka Center for Jewish Life at Yale, was joined by Rev. William Shillady, a Methodist minister. Clinton and the groom, Marc Mezvinsky, reportedly were married under a chuppah, in a ceremony that featured friends and family reciting the seven traditional blessings and a ketubah, the traditional Jewish wedding contract. The event took place Saturday night before the end of the Jewish sabbath.

Mezvinsky, who is Jewish, wore a yarmulke and prayer shawl.

Ponet, a Reform rabbi, has been the Jewish chaplain at Yale since 1981. He currently teaches a college seminar with Dr. Ruth Westheimer on “The Family in the Jewish Tradition," according to the bio on the Slifka Center website. He and his wife, Elana, also "lead a weekly discussion in Slifka Dining Room on the value of peace in Jewish life and thought."

Comments

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That's pretty retarded.

Mazel Tov!

The Huppah is nice but the rest is silly IMO.

There was absolutely no reason for any kind of Jewish ceremony here - Hillary isn't a Jew! That ketubah has as much validity as a wedding between a guy and a horse!

We hope she will convert one day but she should keep away from Tropper

I am sure Tropper and her wife would like to do her

Long Life and happiness to them. What tickles me is the "Now we have a more Zionist influence in the state dept as the grooms mother is Hillary Clinton.

Im laughing at all the conspiracy nuts loosing minds one this one.

I wish them long life and happiness too, but it's unfortunate that the groom felt the need to confuse a civil ceremony with Jewish ritual clothing, sheva brachoth, ketubah (why?), etc. This has the potential to really bring the Reform movement's position on intermarriage and patrilineal Jewishness into the public spotlight down the road, for better or worse.

Perhaps this blog should alter the mast-head to "Covering Judaism" (ie. delete the word Orthodox. At least do not capitalize the word Orthodox. IMO it is just a plain adjective, nothing official, and need not be capitalized)

To Pish Posh:
You write, "What tickles me is the "Now we have a more Zionist influence in the state dept as the grooms mother is Hillary Clinton."
I'm confused, if the groom's mother is Hillary Clinton then this is an incestuous marriage. That combined with the fact that his father is an ex-con and his uncle is violently anti-Jewish/Zionist makes for an interesting situation.
I've been invited to the sheva brachot.

Correction:
Not sheva brachot, only 3.5

Good luck to the young newlyweds.

My wife is hotter.

Nebech, there are so many lonly Jewish women on the upper west side who have nobody because reform like this one marry shiksas it is a shanda.

There are so many lonely women on the west side because so many misguided men who are nothing but shnorrers, only want women who wear a size zero dress and have a rich daddy who will support him.

To those who are sitting shiva because Marc Mezvinsky married a shikse:

Don't you have anything better to do with your lives than stick your big Jewish schnozzoles into other people's business? At least both he and his bride work for a living, which is more than can be said about most of you Clinton-hating parasites.

If you REALLY want to read some nasty stuff on this subject, though, mosey on over to VIN and read what the intolerant racist pigs who call themselves "Jews" have to say on the matter.

Mazeltov to Marc and Chelsea, and to the proud parents (and in-laws)!

Mr. Apikoros,
there has been some research of Jewish noses vs non-Jewish noses, and it's been discovered that THEIR noses are bigger than OUR noses.
I am not kidding.

This only harms us. England only became enemies with Germany when their Royal families started intermarrying.


i never in my life thought i would think this....i always taught my children to marry only jews.
after living in a large jewish community for the past 20 years.. i can say without hesitation...mazal tov chelsea and marc.

Is this before or after Dr. Diamond went to work on them?

Avi Weiss, nu, you are missing a trick here?!

I believe the research was done before nose jobs came into fashion.

My wife is hotter.

Posted by: Critical minyan

Chelsea's looks have improved over the years but she's still a bit of a butta face (nice person butta face that could stop a clock).

The old joke went:
Why did the Clintons take Chelsea with them wherever they went?

Because she was to ugly to kiss goodbye.


Seriously, I wish them well, and perhaps both of them will be inspired to learn more about traditional Judaism and embrace it. (It would be obvious that she was not converting just to get married or to improve her lot in life).

to Yoel Mechanic
The blog has to say Orthodox *Unfortunately*
because that is where much of the muck lies that needs to be raked
Re: Chelsea
She can get into Israel as the wife of a Jew and maybe even a work permit
The people of Israel are complicit in their own misery by not allowing civil marriage and getting over the neuroses of the modern Rabbanut

Dr. Dave- your post is sure to win her over to traditonal Judaism. She'll see how witty and sensitive observant Jews are and drop that secular toad in a heartbeat. Good work.


dr. dave,

i'm sure after reading such a hurtful comment, chelsea really really regrets not being jewish and great and wonderful like you.

......and we're supposedly a merciful people that perform acts of loving kindness...
o.k.

With the Right wing Orthodox Jews having doube digit numbers of kids Mezvisnky's marriage means very little.
I am upset though by the Jewish officiant at the wedding.
Although ordained at HUC, Rabbi Ponet is a Hillel Chaplain not a rabbi at a Reform Temple. He has in the past sought to portray himself as a very traditional rabbi with in some instance Modern Orthodox values.
As Hilel chaplain it seems to me tht rabbi Ponet should not have officiated at this marriage as it sets a poor example for Yales Jewish student community and a poor image of Hilel rabbis nationwide who are paid by communal funds not by temples.
Finally I could have found some excuse for his actions if either the bride or the groom attnded Yale or were part of the Yale Jewish community, but apparently that is not the case.

Guys - I was joking, but I will apologize to Chelsea.

I 'm sorry Chelsea. I'm sure you're just as hot as Mrs. CM.

A 1982 resolution of the Reform Rabbis (CCAR) states:
"In 1909, and again in 1947 and in 1973, the Central Conference of American Rabbis declared its opposition to the performance of mixed marriages by its members. Mindful of these prior resolutions, we now call special attention to the most flagrant form of mixed marriages--co-officiating with non-Jewish clergy-and publicly repudiate that practice." (emphasis added)

Being a liberal movement, though, they don't throw people out for this (or for doing it on Shabbat, or Yom Kippur in a church), unlike the RCA or the RA, which would expel you for doing an intermarriage.

OCR, I'm sure that when Rabbi Ponet got a call to do this high profile ceremony, involving the daughter of a former POTUS and the current SofS, with the promise of a nice payday and a chance to meet so many of the rich and famous, any concerns he had about the CCAR resolution went out the window.

to ruthie i guess in the future i should pray to you because you are obviously more "tolerant" and "merciful" than GOD whereas GOD clearly considers a Jew Marrying a Non Jewish woman a cardinal Sin deserving of the worst punishment and commanding us the Jewish Nation to oustercise such people from our midst you are more "open minded" and "tolerant" perhaps you ruthie should give GOD advice on rewriting the TORAH

JJ, maybe you should join a Modesty Squad, so you can help enforce the Torah.

Perhaps you'd like to enforce Torah Law on the many thousands of Jews who have married people of other religions, or even atheists.

You can also try moving to a country where religion is the law, such as Botswana, Sudan, or Somalia. Their governments are a lot like Torah Law. You'd love it there!

GOD clearly considers a Jew Marrying a Non Jewish woman a cardinal Sin deserving of the worst punishment and commanding us the Jewish Nation to oustercise such people from our midst

I do not know which BT yeshiva you went to, but you are still am haaretz but Jew marrying non Jewish woman is not a cardinal sin.

Let tell yiu a chidush , having sex with little children is not a mitzva! regardless of what ur rabbi says

JJ, you are not showing yourself as a great Torah scholar. Nowhere in the Torah we see a prohibition of marrying non-Jewish women. On the other hand Torah is full of examples of great Jews marrying non-Jewish women (Joseph, Solomon, Moshe, Joshua...). Torah also states that you can take a captive non-Jewish woman as a wife without her will...

jj

do you read g-d's mind?
i've met too many lying frum people....dangerous people...
stop hiding behind all this.
does it ever occur to you that g-d also wants us to be happy..not just
feeling guilty all the time...
stop with your stupidity.
please.

you probably are addicted to religion.
that's o.k. i have my vices too.
enjoy yours.
ruthie

Jewish Jackoff (JJ): It's "ostracize." Before you start arrogating God's words, you ought to learn how to spell them.

Now gay kocken af'n yam.

For people who claim that this wasn't a valid wedding, or pour hate on this couple for daring to be interfaith, please remember that there is more than one way to be a Jew, a Christian, a Human. Fine, they are not "your type of people". Just be decent people, wish them the best, and move on. It always shocks me how much hate hides under the veil of religious righteousness.

do you read g-d's mind?

Ruthie,

The Torah is very clear about how serious a violation it is to marry a non-Jew. The Torah is the word of G-D.

The Torah is very clear about how serious a violation it is to marry a non-Jew. The Torah is the word of G-D.

WHERE EXACTLY in the Torah does it forbid marriage to a non-Jew?

Ezra frowned upon it, but it wasn't in the chumash other than making a captive chick look really ugly before you marry her. (No. I've learned my lesson, I'm not going there again.)

Intermarriage ban? Wasn't it something like a week ago in Parshat VaEtChanan, Devariam 7:4. (aka Deuteronomy, the name of the book from the Septuagint translation). In case anyone is tempted to think that this ban only applied to 7 specific Caanite nations, lets ask a relevant question: Do you think that for a thousand years this ban was only for the Caani'im, that Jews married non-Jews at will (and I mean *non* Jews: unconverted pagans) and then only a long long time those Rabbis decided to put an intermarriage ban in place??? Does that make sense? Any sense at all? I can hardly imagine a more explicit and clear cut Halachah as the ban on marrying outside of the Nation of Israel. But if one seeks clarification, by all means, read the Gemora on this to see their analysis there. Also see the last Chapter in the Book of Ezra.

In other words, you have no source.

The same Torah you quote is full of people – including Moses – who married out.

The Court of the the Maccabees decreed that any "relations" with a non-Jew were forbidden and the prohibition was an extremely strong one.

That is enough to settle the matter. The source is Tractate Avoda Zara 36B.

"who knows" is correct. Almost from it's very origin, our lineage is full of intermarriages and will continue to be. Although interfaith ceremonies are still somewhat strange to me, I feel that they serve an important transition for couples who heretofore were forced to choose one faith and abandon the other. Isn't it better to include Judaism in their life, in some form or another, rather than to lose Marc forever because we are too prejudiced to accept diversity?
An interesting juxtaposition at the wedding was former Sec. of State Madeleine Albright who claims she never knew that her parents were actually Jews who converted before she was born.

To Shalom the Conservative. No.

And the Conservative movement, or such as is left of it, will expel any Rabbi who participates in an intermarriage.

wsc-
damn right. None of the whore rabbis -whether Reform, Recon, or Renewal- who co-officiate with galochim on Shabbos care about their organizations. Lots of nice off the books money in intermarriages.

Shmarya,

Either you’re an Am H’orets, as I mentioned before, or you’re from the maskilim movement, or you’re from the Tsudukim movement. You cannot escape yourself from one of these three labels.

Loshon H’rambam – words of the Rambam Hilchos Isurai Bi’ah 12:1 (quoting the Talmud):

“A Jewish male or female who has intercourse with a non Jew, in a marital fashion, is punished with Makos (39 lashes) Min H’Torah - according to the Torah , as the verse says lo tischaten bum bitcha lo titian l’bno ubito lo tikach l’bincha, this was said for the seven nations and all other nations ”

The same Torah you quote is full of people – including Moses – who married out.

Balak 25:6: “And there was a man from Israel who brought a Midyanit before the eyes of moses etc… Pinchos the son of of Eliezer the son of Aron rose from the crowd and stabbed them to death etc.. and the plague stopped etc.. G-D said I will give Pinchos and his grandchildren forever the peace treaty etc…

Rashi “before the eyes of moses”: He said to Moses, “Moses is this one forbidden or permissible, if you shall say forbidden the daughter of Jethro who made permissible for you?”

Is someone suggesting here that Moshe married a women who did not accept the G-d of Israel? Does that make sense? Is there any indication that Tziporah was a pagan or polytheist *after* marrying Moshe Rabainu?

I'm pretty disappointed in some of the comments here: after all the blogging here about the conversion bill in Israel... then when I say quite clearly the ban is on marrying non-Jews who *remain* non-Jews (that is, uncoverted pagans) suddenly some act like conversion is something that never happened. Is anyone really serious that they have read the Torah, and from that believe that Moshe Rabainu married an idolator?? I mean if this rhetoric is part of a manipulation of the naive, then I'm cool with that: it is obvious where you stand. But I really would be most surprised that someone was actually serious on that one.

Dr. Dave: saying that Ezra frowned on intermarriage (in fact, the claim is that he did what the Law of Moses told him to do, and exiled the "foreign woman" along with "their children" (apparently the children were not Jewish either, despite having a Jewish father)... to call this sort of harsh measure "frowning" is certainly something I cannot explain. This sort of rhetoric ..."frowned upon..." will definitely convey a misimpression what the Tenach reports on.

Shmarya,

Either you’re an Am H’orets, as I mentioned before, or you’re from the maskilim movement, or you’re from the Tsudukim movement. You cannot escape yourself from one of these three labels.

Loshon H’rambam – words of the Rambam Hilchos Isurai Bi’ah 12:1 (quoting the Talmud):

“A Jewish male or female who has intercourse with a non Jew, in a marital fashion, is punished with Makos (39 lashes) Min H’Torah - according to the Torah , as the verse says lo tischaten bum bitcha lo titian l’bno ubito lo tikach l’bincha, this was said for the seven nations and all other nations ”

I realize logic and even simple facts are difficult for you, but try to process:

The Rambam is not the same thing as the Torah. They are separated by more than 2000 years.

Balak 25:6: “And there was a man from Israel who brought a Midyanit before the eyes of moses etc… Pinchos the son of of Eliezer the son of Aron rose from the crowd and stabbed them to death etc.. and the plague stopped etc.. G-D said I will give Pinchos and his grandchildren forever the peace treaty etc…

Rashi “before the eyes of moses”: He said to Moses, “Moses is this one forbidden or permissible, if you shall say forbidden the daughter of Jethro who made permissible for you?”


The answer to Rashi's question would be conversion, but we have no evidence of any conversion.

And later in Tanakh we see lots of intermarriage with no evidence of conversion.

But, hey, like I said above, facts and logic aren't your strong points.

I forgot to add that the parsha you cite is dealing with idol worship and not intermarriage, as anyone can clearly see by reading it in full, in context.

In fact, God doesn't complain about intermarriage – he complains about the worship of Baal Pe'or.

"The Court of the the Maccabees decreed that any "relations" with a non-Jew were forbidden and the prohibition was an extremely strong one.

That is enough to settle the matter. The source is Tractate Avoda Zara 36B."

I'm not bound by the rulings of the Court of the Maccabees any more than I'm bound by the Nuremberg Laws, which pretty much said the same thing.

Tam, go resurrect the Rambam, and drive him to my house with his whip so he can lay his 39 lashes on me.

The Rambam is not the same thing as the Torah. They are separated by more than 2000 years etc… In fact, God doesn't complain about intermarriage

I realize just how difficult it is for an Am H’aorets like you. Try the process:

Close to verbatim, every word of the Rambam is a direct quote from a passage in the Talmud, Mishna or Braisa (as every half learned person knows). The Mishna and Braisa’s were written while the Temple stood, and were word for word passed down with its lineage (Mesora) documented till today.

Maskilim didn’t believe at all in the Old Testament. Tsidukim believed but didn’t care for the Mesora, and the ignoramus am ha’oratstim just argued over semantics.

The Mishna and Braisa’s were written while the Temple stood

Idiot.

The mishna was compiled in 200 CE, about 130 years after the destruction of the second temple (which did not have the kedusha of the first temple).

And neither the mishna, talmud, tosefta or sifre is part of the Torah.

You're a shoteh, Tam, and a judgmental one at that.

reform has different rules so why is this hard to understand?

What on earth did they need a ketubah for? Seriously, just to be quaint? Do they even understand that the ketubah is a contract that states that the woman is the man's property pretty much?
Also to mmmmm....you don't really know your history then do you.

I forgot to add that the parsha you cite is dealing with idol worship and not intermarriage etc… And neither the mishna, talmud, tosefta or sifre is part of the Torah.

Why hide then? Just come out of your closet and say it the way it is: “I am a Tsiduki; I believe in the Torah according to the literal text, not according to any Rabbi's interpretations; and I do not believe in Torah M’sinai” There you go, I said it for you.

Why hide then? Just come out of your closet and say it the way it is: “I am a Tsiduki; I believe in the Torah according to the literal text, not according to any Rabbi's interpretations; and I do not believe in Torah M’sinai” There you go, I said it for you.

Try to process.

The rabbis opinions you (selectively) cite were written thousands of years after the Torah.

Unless the Torah itself says A=B, the issue is at best d'rabbanan.

In this specific case, it isn't even that – it's a drush.

We don't learn out the ban on intermarriage from the story of Pinchas.

We learn it from the story of Ezra, which in NOT in the Torah.

Ezra was post prophecy.

He was a great man, but his opinion is not equivalent to a prophet's, and it is certainly not equivalent to God's.

The Torah is very clear about how serious a violation it is to marry a non-Jew. The Torah is the word of G-D.

WHERE EXACTLY in the Torah does it forbid marriage to a non-Jew?

Posted by: Shmarya | August 01, 2010 at 06:59 PM

So you go by only what it says in Torah and in the Talmud or rambam and the rst of rishoniem?

How Will you define something that is very clearly written in the Torah:

וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם מוֹת יוּמָתוּ ויקרא כ יג.

[tr: And a man who lays a man in the way he would a woman is an abomination and they both shall certainly die.]

In this case i bet you will go and find something lenient with the MO

Correction

So you go by only what it says in the Torah and NOT what it says in the Talmud or rambam and the rest of rishoniem?

Cheskel –

Please.

Use your head.

Someone claimed the Torah (not Nakh, not the Talmud) prohibits intermarriage.

I asked for a source.

That person had no Torah-based source.

Therefore it is wrong to claim that the ban on intermarriage is d'orita.

One does not need to be an Orthodox Jew to care about the claims made by Orthodox Jews – especially when those claims are false.

Unless the Torah itself says A=B, the issue is at best d'rabbanan etc… In this specific case, it isn't even that – it's a drush.

Meshugana vas bis du!

Answer the question once and for all:

Do you oppose the opinions of all the Rabbis mentioned in the Talmud, the Rambam and rest of the Rishonim with their interpretation of the verse “Lo tischaten bum etc…”in which they consider a D’oraoisa as I quoted you the words of the Rambam, “is punished with Makos Min H’Torah - according to the Torah“? They have translated the verse literally: “do not intermarry them, your daughters do not hand over to their sons, and their daughters do not take for your sons”.

Do you oppose that interpretation? YES or NO?

If yes, then come out loud and clear that you’re a bona fide Tsiduki. Otherwise concede and shut up with your semantics!

i love my sins...love them

Do you oppose that interpretation? YES or NO?

If yes, then come out loud and clear that you’re a bona fide Tsiduki. Otherwise concede and shut up with your semantics!

I realize this is very hard for you to grasp, Tam, but that is talking about the 7 nations, not about Scandinavians, say, or Africans.

You are a shoteh, Tam, and an arrogant one at that.

WHERE EXACTLY in the Torah does it forbid marriage to a non-Jew? etc… The same Torah you quote is full of people – including Moses – who married out etc… The Rambam is not the same thing as the Torah. They are separated by more than 2000 years etc… neither the mishna, talmud, tosefta or sifre is part of the Torah. Etc… Unless the Torah itself says A=B, the issue is at best d'rabbanan., In this specific case, it isn't even that – it's a drush. but that is talking about the 7 nations, not about Scandinavians, say, or Africans

Do you suffer from Schizophrenia?

"The Court of the the Maccabees decreed that any "relations" with a non-Jew were forbidden and the prohibition was an extremely strong one.

That is enough to settle the matter. The source is Tractate Avoda Zara 36B."

Are these Pious Maccabees the same ones who stole the Malchut from Yehuda and came to inglorious ends so none of their line existed after the time of Herod? Those Illustrious Maccabbees. Not to belittle their fighting against Avodah Zorah, but as usual power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

First, the name calling against Tam is unnecessary and uncalled for, but I suppose once he is called a name he too then feels he has to respond in kind. You know, you don't have to accept the traditional (oral) Torah view; but there is no need to engage in nastiness when someone does give over that view (which should be familiar to all... if not, enroll in your local Yeshivah). According this view the Mishnah was *redacted* by Yehudah HaNasi, based on earlier (unplublished) works, that presumably were (or could have been, certainly allowed) written down. The quotes from Rabbis of the second temple era are considered to be authentic, therefore if someone says these are "writings" of the second temple era, I don't think one should start the nastiness but simply clarify the issue. If one thinks that the entire Mishnah was written completely after the second temple era, they might be implying the quotes in the Mishan were also fabricated *after* the second temple era, so of course this would be consider an anti-traditional view. But this too is no reason for name calling.

>Someone claimed the Torah (not Nakh, not the Talmud) prohibits intermarriage.
I asked for a source. That person had no Torah-based source.
-----------------------------------------
Well, you did get the source. It would be more accurate for you to say you did not accept the source that was given over rather than claim that person had no Torah-based source to give over. In fact
the source given to you is simply the standard oral Torah style of "exegesis" so it should be familiar to all.

The logic you used in this matter... did you learn this style of thinking in a Yeshivah? A Chabad Yeshivah? specifically that you enlarge the context of the passage, recontextualize the passook in the larger context and then claim that that larger context is the only topic relevant. (I hope what I said is clear enough, I don't have time to have my lawyer review every single thing I write on a blog comment)

First, the name calling against Tam is unnecessary and uncalled for, but I suppose once he is called a name he too then feels he has to respond in kind.

He started calling people am haratzim and like. And people – including me – responded.

you did get the source. It would be more accurate for you to say you did not accept the source that was given over rather than claim that person had no Torah-based source to give over. In fact
the source given to you is simply the standard oral Torah style of "exegesis" so it should be familiar to all.

Please.

I asked for a Torah citation, something in the humash, that forbids intermarriage.

Tam used several evasive tactics and name calling, but he never provided that source – and neither have you.

The logic you used in this matter... did you learn this style of thinking in a Yeshivah? A Chabad Yeshivah? specifically that you enlarge the context of the passage, recontextualize the passook in the larger context and then claim that that larger context is the only topic relevant.

Please.

Were you born a pompous ass or did you simply grow into one?

The citations Tam gave are about IDOL WORSHIP and about violating the mishkan.

God even 'speaks' and is upset about the idol worship.

Nowhere is He said to be upset about intermarriage or sexual relations between Jewish men and non-Jewish women.

Past that, we know that Jews did not consider these passages to be bans on intermarriage, because many Jews who returned to the land at the time of Ezra were intermarried, and they only gave up their non-Jewish wives and children when Ezra told them to do so.

That Jews who were willing to risk much to return to Israel and who cared deeply about Jewishness would not know that intermarriage is forbidden is an untenable proposition.

What is tenable is that Ezra represented a different understanding of Jewish law, one that existed concurrently with the other but was not very well known.

Ezra's version won out because he was seen as a holy man and as leader to the returnees and because later rabbinic opinion follwed him.

But to say that the passages Tam quoted are actual d'orita blanket bans on intermarriage is nothing but projection.

Intermarriage became 'banned' when rabbis said it was banned, and rabbis did not exist 3300 years ago. That's why so many biblical figures are – gasp! – intermarried, and why Tanakh doesn't say boo about that until the very late book we now know as Ezra.

>Please.

>Were you born a pompous ass or did you simply grow into one?
------------------------------------------

I suppose, both: I was born that way, but also grew into a bigger one. How about an answer to my question?

Please.

I answered your question.

Reread my comment slowly, several times if necessary.

If you still do not understand, seek help elsewhere.

>I asked for a Torah citation, something in the humash, that forbids intermarriage.

I wasn't referring to what Tam said, but to the source I provided from Parshat V'etChanan. I think this is cited as a pretty common source, as well as corroboration on the idea that if the mother is Jewish the child is still Jewish (see the Rashi on this for explanation). Like I said, I am not saying anyone is required to believe any particular thing, but relay what I think is the standard Yeshivah, oral Torah, view. Did anyone learn otherwise? Of course one can use non-traditional logics and analysis to make the meaning of the text come out completely differently. also, you're welcome (since you begin your posts with "please")

I wasn't referring to what Tam said, but to the source I provided from Parshat V'etChanan. I think this is cited as a pretty common source, as well as corroboration on the idea that if the mother is Jewish the child is still Jewish (see the Rashi on this for explanation). Like I said, I am not saying anyone is required to believe any particular thing, but relay what I think is the standard Yeshivah, oral Torah, view.

The point, which you obfuscate, is that there is not Torah source banning intermarriage in general, just as there is no Torah source mandating a conversion process or conversion ceremony.

The "standard Yeshiva, oral Torah" view you cite is irrelevant to this discussion. It is projection backward in time by rabbis who both wanted to validate their current practice and who viewed history as if its actors all spoke Aramaic and learned in Babylonian yeshivot.

Then please say that the source I provided is not acceptable to you, rather than continue to claim that I did not provide a source in the Chumash. btw: there is no "conversion process" or "ceremony". An eligible member of an eligible nation gives up allegiance to foreign deities (ie. gives up their idol worship), throws their lot in with Yisrael (accepts the laws and ways of Yisrael... ie. one Law for Yisrael and Ger) and that is it. But if the person is an idol worshipper, you are not to marry them. One can use various labels for this, but I am trying to clearly state the concepts and actions independently of labels. I believe the Chumash passage I cited well corroborates this. Today we are following these same laws, but using some different vocabularies that suits our current times and situation. btw: the Jewish Nation is a Holy Nation, and Am Segulah, and therefore our various customs and enactments take on a degree of holiness too.

>Please,

I was referring to my question: did you learn this logic in a Yeshivah? which Yeshivah? A Chabad one taught you think like this? Maybe JTS? Its sort of a personal question, so you are welcome to defer.

I'll clarify further: were you like sitting in a smicha program being taught these halachic ideas as you elucidated? or were you taught a more masoretic view... in which case was it only years later you rejected this, or were you like sitting their all along thinking to yourself this is all wrong, but I have to go along with it to get smicha? I hope you see my points. Now I appreciate that you have elucidated your views. I have learned something and for that I thank you...even though you called me a pompous ass for absolutely no reason.

Then please say that the source I provided is not acceptable to you,

Cite your source exactly and I will directly respond to it.

Devarim 7:4 (see my post above for other comments I made)

Instead of debate about what the word "intermarriage" means, ask the question: does the Torah (Chumash) address the issue of marrying someone who does not follow the laws of Israel

Devarim 7:4 (see my post above for other comments I made)

Please.

That refers specifically to the specified seven nations of Canaan and no one else.

Instead of debate about what the word "intermarriage" means, ask the question: does the Torah (Chumash) address the issue of marrying someone who does not follow the laws of Israel

No.

But it does make mention and condemn idol worship.

Shmarya, that's fine, you already addressed this issue, and I have too. I wanted to hear more about the Yeshivot you attended, as I asked above.

What if Chelsea Clinton married a black man?

Would the same racists who objected to her marrying a Jew still decry the marriage here on this blog?

Now no jokes about how Bill was the "first black president, so it wasn't an interracial marriage..."

The desire to marry someone Jewish to have a Jewish family, according to traditional halachah should not be equated with racism; even as an insinuation

Shmarya,

Let’s cut to the chase:

So you oppose the Halacha & Rabbi’s (Rambam, Shulchan Aruch) interpretation of the violation of “lo tischaten bum etc...” to include ALL nations M’dioraiso (as I quoted to you from the Rambam). But you believe that the literal text ONLY – being exclusively the seven nations - is included in the d’oraisa violation? Is that correct? YES or NO?

If yes, then you would just as well exclude any juxtaposition, “drush”, kal v’chomer, or any of the thirteen ways the Torah is nidrash, as being m’dioraisa?

Well then you’re a bona fide Tsiduki! I am trying to fathom why you’re not brave enough to admit so?!!!

Tam,

It does not matter what a rabbi (or rabbis) project backward 2000 years.

What matters are the facts.

And those facts clearly show there was no problem with what we call intermarriage until the time of Ezra.

(The only mention of it before that has to do with a specific commandment not to marry from the specific 7 Canaanite nations mentioned in the Torah.)

The same holds true for conversion.

Saying this doesn't make me a Sadducee; it makes me honest.

You also need to understand that Rabbis living 1700 years ago had very little access to historical information, and they based their views on what little information they had.

Confronted with Ezra's actions, they could do little but assume one of two things: Ezra had the authentic tradition and the people did not, or Ezra and the people had competing traditions, and Ezra's was not d'orita.

Because interaction with non-Jews was viewed as an existential threat to the existence of 'pure' Judaism by a large segment of these rabbis, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why they chose the first over the second. It is the only answer that fit their worldview.

That that worldview developed out of anger that the Hashmonaim became Hellenist and that the Roman's sacked Jerusalem twice, is also something these rabbis did not have a clear understanding of because, as we see until this day, rabbis do not write history that tells unflattering truths, so no books existed to document any of this.

You don't like the facts so you retreat into fundamentalist name calling.

But the facts remain.

For clarity sake:

So you won't abide by the laws of the Shulchan Aruch at all? Or only when it pertains to those laws you agree with as being D'oraisa?

Yoel, here's my opinion on this:

I live in the United States of America. In the US, Jews are just another white ethnicity, like Italians or Irish. We are fully accepted in the USA and have been for at least the past 50 years. In other words, we are no longer in Galut, and we are no longer "Diaspora Jews." In fact, although we're only 2% of the US population, there are more American Jews than Israeli Jews.

After a certain period of time when an ethnicity is no longer regarded as a bunch of Auslanders, intermarriage is inevitable, just as Italians marry the Irish all the time and nobody gets too upset, except maybe the grandmas from the old country. We are now Americans, part of the greater whole.

Sure, there are people who want to keep the old traditions alive, but that can be done if kids are raised in two religions (it's the same God), and if the heritages are preserved.

My problem comes with the fools (not you, of course) who start the BS about grandma spinning in her grave, or who seem preoccupied with the fact that my wife is Protestant, or that Marc Mezvinsky's bride is Protestant. This is intolerance, pure and simple, and for them, a one-way time trip to Germany, 1935 is in order.

There are much bigger issues to be concerned about.

So you won't abide by the laws of the Shulchan Aruch at all? Or only when it pertains to those laws you agree with as being D'oraisa?

What I do or don't do personally isn't any of your business.

Let's rephrase that:

So you content that, one is not obligated to abide by the Laws of the Shulchan Aruch unless it pertains to those laws he would agree with as being D'oraisa?

I don't have to obey ANY religious laws. Period.

One is not obliged to follow the Shulchan Aruch. Most do not unless one is a Sefardi who has that tradition (as opposed to the Temanim for example).

Ashkenazim generally follow the mapa of the Rama unless other traditions or poskim disagree.

Mr. pervert anti-semite; You don't obey any religious laws because you're probably not Jewish. Mom's probabably a shiksa like your wife. Jewish fathers don't create Jewish children. Even if both your parents were Jewish, which I doubt, you obviously weren't brought up with any knowledge of Judaism.

It doesn't matter because your children are gentiles just like their mother. Have fun in church with your gentile family.

Funny thing is that she has no Ashkenazim Khazar blood in her system that I know of. But man she's got the nose. Hard to say if they have offspring. If it's a girl you can bet your asteroids, that it's gonna look just like Barbra Streisand.

Sderot:

I will have fun in church this Sunday. But not as much fun as I'm having sticking it to you and your fellow orthodicks online.

BTW, somehow, I kind of doubt you've posted this from Sderot at 4:01 AM Israel time. But if you were fuming so much over my post that it kept you up all night, all the better.



Dear "Chosen" Activists and the media:

Who doesn't like a good wedding? I wish the happy couple all the success of a joycous marriage.

However, this particular marriage may have the 'honeymoon' over before it's begun.

I'm not concerned with whether Chelsea converts to being Jewish.

I am concerned that her mother's anti-semitic politics, that has been a disaster against Israel and the Jewish faith and nation, will be excused under the heading: "How can I be an anti-semite, when my daughter married a Jewish man, while I run for President"?

Having started Hillarynow.com and promoting Hillary in Aug. 2003, 3 years before Hillary became a candidate, I went to 110 cities and did over 1000 news interviews on her behalf, and gave her 5 years of my life and I know what a lousy campaign she ran out of Wash., D.C. which cost her the election.

I also know how she wasted $100million on this foolish effort with an incompetent campaign and I also know that when she was both a U.S. Senator and Presidential candidate she was supportive of a 'United Jerusalem', which is the only reason I supported her to begin with.

As a lifelong Democrat, I saw Obama switch in one day from a 'United Jerusalem' to a 'divided Jerusalem', when he addressed AIPAC in D.C.,in 2008 and I was outside with my protest sign: "Obama is Bad For America and Israel" and had to put up with a ton of abuse from those going to the meeting.

For the first time in my life I voted for a Republican. I knew Obama was trouble but I never knew he would be this ruthless and evil. Obama and Hillary won because Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Dist. 20, Obama's #1, told the Jewish community we could 'trust' Obama on Israel, which we know today is a huge lie as illustrated below with many more grievances to mention. The Jewish vote in S. Fla. gave Obama the victory, which went national and he was elected with the Jewish vote and Hillary is in her position as a result. Schultz's betrayal and siding with Obama/Hillary on each of the issues below is why I'm running against her for Congress, as an 'independent' in the Nov. general election, as a national referendum against Obama/Hillary/Schultz etc. playing these disastrous and dangerous games.(see: www.kunstforcongress.com).

Anyway, back to Hillary, I also had to put up with 5 yrs. of abusive attacks upon myself for even supporting Hillary.

Many told me of Hillary hugging Arafat's wife who lied about Israel using chemical weapons to kill Arabs. How would Hillary betray Israel and the Jews?

Tragically, since joining Obama's appeasement of everything Muslim, she has gone out of her way to abuse.... time and again... the Jewish nation, the Jewish faith, our 5000 yr. "Covenant with G-d", and to demand that 'no natural births' in our 'holyland', she and Obama want to give to the very Islamic Nazis who backed Hitler and danced in the streets after '9/11'.

Imagine telling the Jews that East Jerusalem belongs to the very people who keep screaming "Death to Israel" and "Death to America"?

Imagine ignoring that Jerusalem has been Jewish for 3000 years and millions of Jews have been murdered for their faith and Jerusalem, they pray to 3 times daily, while the Muslims pray to Mecca and turn their backs on Jerusalem? Jerusalem is in our Bible over 700 times and not once in the Koran. But don't let this stop Obama and Hillary from attacking our faith, they would never do to the Muslims.

Imagine, 'judenrein' politics of a 'Jew free' area, from Hillary to attack the Jewish holyland and all in it and to repeat the disaster in Gaza, which allowed Hamas to take control. This 'Jew free' policy of the Nazis to rid the Jews in Europe, Hillary and Obama are pushing now means that another 630,000 Jews will have to leave Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, which will never happen without another war. With the 10,000 Jews forced to leave Gush Katif in Gaza and not resettled, does anyone with a brain think the rest of the Jews will follow suit in this outrageous betrayal?

Meanwhile, Hamas takes over in Gaza and is voted in with 85% vote to keep warring with Israel and killing more Jews. For this the Gazans are to be rewarded with Obama and Hillary supporting them instead of atacking them for attacking Israel with 15,000 plus missiles including 300 more since the 'ceasefire' last year.

Where is the morality, principles, credibility of Obama and Hillary with their sins on the backs of Chelsea and her Jewish husband having to deal with all of this outrageous anti-semitism from Obama and Hillary?

Meanwhile, Hillary goes a few weeks ago to Auschwitz, the world's largest Jewish cemetery where millions of Jews were exterminated, to offer $15millions for repair, while Hillary herself is pushing the very same policies that the Nazis used that allowed an Auschwitz, to take place as part of the mass murder of nearly 7 millions Jews in the Holocaust, the Arabs cowardly deny, but want to finish the job Hitler started and Hillary and Obama are pushing and siding with. Why is Auschwitz in the hands of the Poles who put crosses and a disco there, when this belongs to the Jews and other victims and should be shown proper respect?

Didn't Obama dump on the Poles with his missile withdrawal to satisfy the Russians? Didn't Obama even ignore going to the Polish Embassy to sign a condolense book when the Polish President was killed in a plane crash?

Meanwhile, Obama and Hillary are supporting the German Insurance Corporations who don't want to compensate the Holocaust survivors claims and this too happened in July of 2010. Even Bill Clinton wasn't this evil and did support the survivors.

Obama in Cairo in 2009, equates the "Holocaust" with "Muslim Humiliation", while cowardly ignoring 5 Arab wars and 2 Intifadas to kill all Jews and ignored 900,000 Jews thrown out of Arab countries and everything stolen from them, when Israel became a state. Where's Hillary in this outrage?

Yet, Obama and Hillary constantly say that Israel's 'security' will be maintained, but they've allowed, with the most aweful politics and wasting two years, the world didn't have, to allow Iran, which denies the Holocaust, to build its nukes it will use against Israel and America, while supporting the Islamic Nazi Hamas and Hezbollah.

What 'security' is there if Israel is to give up everything Jewish, holy and our 5000 yrs. of 'occupation' that G-d gave to us, we bought and paid for many times over, and the League of Nations also gave to us, but Obama and Hillary could care less about justice for the Jews, while in bed with the Islamic Nazis that want us all dead.

Obama tells Israel that protecting the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their wives, is a 'provacation' to the Muslims, while Abraham, the first Jew, bought this property, 3000 yrs. before there was Islam. Hillary allows this outrage and smear against the Jewish faith to go unchallenged.

Obama is behind Turkey, England, the EU and UN against Israel and mum about Hamas' 15,000 missiles against Israel, while supporting efforts to stop the 'Gaza blockade', to prevent Hamas from getting any more weapons. Hillary supports this attack against Israel as well, while rewarding those supporting Hamas.

All of this is in violation of Title 18, of U.S. Code which prevents giving any 'material support to terrorists' and both Obama and Hillary cold be impeached for doing this travesty of justice of supporting the very killers of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Kurds, Bhuddists, other Muslims and everyone the Jihadists see as 'infidels'.

This is the tip of the scandal of Obama and Hillary against Israel as much as they are slapping America in the face, by allowing a mosque to be built at 'Ground Zero' in NYC, where 3000 were murdered there on '9/11'and by the same people who side with those who did this mass murder. This isn't religious tolerance. This is taking over this sacred ground as they want to do with Jerusalem. Why not just put a Nazi flag there, as well as Arlington Cemetery, and give up America to 'Shariah law'?

Obama's evil politics is why he is at 40% with 60% of the nation against him. Even Bill Clinton, who accused Obama of being a 'Chicago thug' and previously said the only way whe would support Obama, is to 'kiss my ass', is at 61% to Obama's 52% in the Gallop poll of 7/22/10.

How come Hillary and Obama don't go to the Muslims and demand that they divide Mecca for a phantom 'peace'? Only yesterday, Abbas of Fatah, who is ready for another war with Israel and couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag with Hamas in Gaza, and who Obama and Hillary are backing, said that he will not negotiate unless he gets in advance and in writing... Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem, handed to him on a silver platter.

This is the same Abbas behind the Massacre in Munich in 1972 of 11 Isaeli athletes. This is the same Abbas who is behind the Intifadas. This is the same Abbas who wants Israel to go back to 1948 borders. This is the same Abbas who in Bethlehem on 8/9/09 said he wanted all of Jerusalem, not just East Jerusalem.
This is the same killer Obama and Hillary are supporting.

This by you is 'negotiating' or the next war?

Curse Israel and you are cursed and bless Israel and you are blessed. Obama and Hillary have cursed Israel a hundred times in the last 18 months and America is suffering from the consequenses of this disastrous foreign policy which has driven U.S. credibility and trust and confidence, down to a new low.

This weakness is an invitation to more Islamic Nazi attacks.

Obama and Hillary scapegoat Israel and Jews, that the only reason U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are being killed, is because Israel won't give in to the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank?

Obama and Hillary blackmail Israel that if they give it all up, they'll allow Israel to attack Iran to stop from being nuked.

Obama and Hillary say nothing about the racism, anti-semitism and constant attacks from the Arabs upon Jews, let alone wanting to continue the Holocaust and only two weeks ago Abbas was telling Hamas to keep killing Jews.

So Obama and Hillary keep insisting you can make peace with those who want to kill you, as much as Neville Chamberlain in 1939, offered 'land for peace' with Hitler and gave up the Sudentenland and Czechoslovakia and flashed 'peace in our time' with that paper that meant nothing.

The tragic results of this stupidity and weakness and groveling, was WWII and the loss of 60 million lives and the Holocaust of nearly 7 million Jewish men, women and children (1 1/2 million Jewish children murdered) and with an alliance by the the very Arabs/Muslims with Hitler, that Obama and Hillary are alligned with now, and are playing the very same stupid and dangerous game Chamberlain did then, we are all facing a new catastrophe.

Saudi Arabia, responsible for '9/11' and 15,000+ Islamic Nazi attacks since, but has the oil, dictates to Obama and Hillary and much of that oil money goes to Bill Clinton's library, as it goes to Jimmy Carter's library, who started his anti-semitic campaign with Israel being an 'apartheid' nation and pushed the flotillas issue. He is also subject to Title 18 violations.

Target Stores was selling globes that had 'Palestine' on it and not Israel, which is no different from the maps from Fatah and Hamas, Hezbollah ad nauseum and nothing from Obama or Hillary about this outrageous attack from Target participating with Hamas etc.

The U.S State Dept. has been anti-Jewish since before the Holocaust and now Hillary and Obama have made it even worse. Our allies see how Obama and Hillary are beating up on America's #1 ally, Israel and have lost trust for their own issues. Our enemis see the U.S. as weak and stupid and want to take advantage of us, since no one from Pakistan to N. Korea, Iran to Venezuela and Cuba among the very many dictatorships Obama and Hillary keep catering to, have wanted to work to stop their threats against us.

Turkey and Brazil side with Iran on nukes, while Hamas and Hezbollah are moving through Latin and Central America with Iran and Chavez and Castro. Then last year, 45,000, non-hispanic were caught at the Mexican border, from countries trying to do us harm, but only 'racist' attacks come from Obama, Hillary and even Bill saying that any resistance to Obama's policies are 'Timothy McVeigh Wannabees'.....and the real issues and threats are ignored.

You understand now why I'm running for Congress. I'm also President of Shalom International, (www.defendjerusalem.net), which has done 319 rallies/events and 1214 news interviews from Oct. 2007 to July 28,2010 to "Keep Jerusalem United" and to "Fight the Jihadists". We've had 17 rallies at the White House, G-20 Summits in Toronto and Pittsburg, At the Vatican in Rome, the Zion Square in Jerusalem during the Pope's visit, the Durbin II anti-semetic attacks from UN in Geneva, the Dem. and Gop Conventions, Ground Zero in NYC, at the Holocaust Memorial in Miami with 2000, at the "Annapolis Summit" and we do four weekly rallies in S.Fla among so many of our efforts.

On Dec. 30, 2008, 300 Muslims screamed "Jews into the Ovens" at the Fed. Bldg. in Ft. Laud., and we have been opposing them ever since.

Last Fri. we were in Atlanta, calling for a boycott of Turkey for their act of war with the 'Gaza Flotilla.'

You can see our huge successes on our web site.

So the real questions here are that Obama's and Hillary's anti-Israel and anti-semitic politics have resulted in a massive increase in anti-semitism across the planet, and that their one-sided attacks on Israel have only encouraged more attacks from the enemies of Israel and America,and that all of the above, means that Chelsea and her Jewish husband have to contend with the sins of the mother-in-law and father-in-law as well.

What kind of Jew is Marc Mezvinsky, who can turn a blind eye to all of the above?

The issue of who is a Jew is to be our 'brother's keeper' and to honor our special relationship with G-d and why we are still here after 5000 yrs. and to 'do unto others, as we would do unto ourselves' and our passing to the world of the 'Ten Commandments' given to us by G-d, who has kept us to this moment and we are still struggling to survive and also to give charity and help humankind which we do all the time.

We are the world's scapegoats, but also the world's 'conscience'.

Our enemies don't trust Obama and Hillary either.

This includes 11 major attack from Muslim Jihadists in the U.S. in 2009.

Obama and Hillary, only last week allowed the PLO terrorist group, responsible for thousands of Jewish deaths in Israel, to fly its flag in Wash., D.C. and give it recognition, when this Islamic Nazi group should be thrown out of the U.S. altogether.

Why isn't Obama and Hillary, moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem and federating West Bank with Jordan and Gaza with Egypt, if they wanted real peace? But 'no', Saudi Arabia, Obama bows down to, rules here, so they keep fitting a squre peg in a round hole going no-where but attacking the Jews, Israel, Judiasm, etc.

Why did the Pan Am 103 bomber, who killed 270, get released to Libya with BP support, and our government's(Obama's/Hillary's) approval, while BP of Gulf Oil catastrophe, paid Obama $1million, and Obama responded with a 'too little, too late' reaction, and BP has a relationship also with Iran, and Congress is also on the oil dole and is impotent to protect America or anyone except Big Oil, which plays a key role in 'Middle East' politics?

So when Obama and Hillary offer $900millions to Gaza and Hamas and another $400millions to Gaza and Hamas and even $20millions to bring them here to the U.S., this alone is an act of treason and violation of Title 18 and 'impeachment'.

What kind of Jew would turn a blind eye to this madness? Especially from a 'mother-in'law', playing such dirty politics against Israel and the Jewish people?

Will Marc Mezvinsky stand up to Hillary, his mother-in-law? His father, Ed Mezvinsky of Iowa, was a former Representative,in the U.S. House, who served 5 years in prison, convicted of fraud, and released in 2008.

Will the son stand up for the Jewish people and America or sell out to Hillary and Bill?

Will Chelsea stand up for the Jewish people and America or keep selling out to Hillary and Bill?

These are not idle issues, as the dangers keep building with these politics, no one can escape from especially from this family.

A real Jew and Christian would react and oppose Obama and Hillary on these issues.

Not a dilemma for a real Jew. Responsibility and accountability is what we must all be about and why our Shalom International efforts are constant reminders of who we are and what we must do and all the support we do get from the grassroots of America who also get it and why they oppose Obama's and Hillary's politics against Israel that is also against America.

Hillary's Presidential aspirations have taken a nose dive because of all of the above and more. Still, she is ahead of Obama in the polls.

Obama lies, Hillary lies, Schultz lies, and the question is whether the children will be any different?

I wish Chelsea and Marc well, but this family has much blood on its hands. Bill hasn't done his job well in Haiti with 300,000 dead in that earthquake that Obama promised $1billion for and didn't deliver, except for more photo ops, as in the Gulf oil spill.

If Chelsea and Marc have a conscience they must oppose their parents and in-law politics and policies, or suffer the consequences of being tainted with the same brush.

No one gets out of these issues. We will all survive or sink with them.

Yours in Shalom,
Bob Kunst
President, Shalom International
305-864-5110
www.defendjerusalem.net
www.kunstforcongress.com


Hillary Clinton is the Moschiach. I even named my cat after her. The correct spelling. Two "l"'s. I don't know what her dumbass husband was thinking when he was shtupping Gennifer Flowers. Kathleen Willey. Monica Lewinsky. And a hundred other bimbos. Hillary is hot!

Bob, you fuck with Hillary, you fuck with God. And with me.

P.S. All kidding aside, your screed is utter bullshit.

Ladies and gentlemen for the record Semitism is only a semantic concept. My dictionary from the seventies(that is one before any Zionist word and meaning tampering)says: refers to the groups of Afro-Asiatic languages. Clearly there is no mention absolutely of ethnicity or blood or DNA's. Quite a many are still spoken today. The real deal is having something against people of Ashkenazim, Sephardim or Mizrahim ethnic origin. Although the last two branches are not as well known as the first. So there it is just languages and semantics. To hell with Richard B. Sheridan and bad comedy writing. When it comes to misnomers he was an expert.

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