Breaking! In American First, Orthodox Synagogue To Have Woman Lead Kabbalat Shabbat Services Tonight

In a move that apparently would make history for an Orthodox synagogue in the United States, the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is scheduled Friday night to have a woman lead a Kabbalat Shabbat service where both men and women are expected to be in the pews.

Riverdale Orthodox Shul To Have Woman Lead Kabbalat Shabbat Tonight
The Jewish Week

In a move that apparently would make history for an Orthodox synagogue in the United States, the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is scheduled Friday night to have a woman lead a Kabbalat Shabbat service where both men and women are expected to be in the pews.

A one-page e-mail letter was sent Friday morning to members of the synagogue, which is led by Rabbi Avi Weiss. The rabbi was recently embroiled in a major controversy over assigning the title Rabba to an HIR spiritual leader, Sara Hurwitz. The letter states: “Kabbalat Shabbat will be led by a woman. This is a halachically acceptable practice, and models our values.” While some Orthodox synagogues have women’s tefillah groups, a woman leading a Friday-night service for both men and women has apparently not been done in an Orthodox shul.

Traditional interpretation of Jewish law bars women from such a public role in the prayer service for various reasons.

The letter to congregants seems to anticipate controversy. “We recognize that this type of tefillah is not practiced in other Orthodox synagogues. We hope other synagogues will make room for this type of inclusive tefillah. Nonetheless, in deference to our own inclusive values beyond women’s involvement, and not wanting to distance ourselves from the Orthodox communal standards, we are not having this tefillah as our only Friday night tefillah, but as an addition to the Main Sanctuary tefillah.”

The letter, in making a halachic justification for a woman leading a Kabbalat Shabbat service, says that in such a service “no distinctions are made between men’s and women’s involvement,” and that it “is not an obligatory prayer service and contains no devarim shebikdushah (liturgical elements like Barkhu and Kedushah which have male leaders)."

The move to have a woman, Lamelle Ryman, lead a Kabbalat service, comes about three months after the Rabba controversy, in which Rabbi Weiss was widely believed to have caved to Orthodox critics who termed the title Rabba to be beyond Orthodox norms. Rabbi Weiss agreed to not use the title again.

Calls and e-mails to HIR Rabbis Weiss, Steven Exler and Hurwitz early Friday afternoon were not returned. A call to Ryman was not returned.

The best overview of the relevant Jewish laws can be found in Rabbi Dr. Daniel Sperber's Women and Men in Communal Prayer: Halakhic Perspectives (KTAV / JOFA).

Comments

[Eliezer]

what about קול אשה?

[Critical minyan]

Why not? What are we, Shiites? Will an orgy break out?

[Mobius]

How radical! They're going to do what Shirah Chadasha has been doing in Jerusalem for a decade! The horror!

[Shmarya]

According to many halakhic opinions, there is no kol isha with regard to divre kedusha like zemirot, etc.

Past that, if others are joining in the singing, the voices are considered to be melded according to halakha, and kol isha does not apply.

[Jason]

I think it's time for me to move to Riverdale...

[Menachem Mendel]

Ma'aseh She-Hayah:

Some time before Purim in 1992 or 1993, HIR-Riverdale decided to have a mixed megillah reading. Rabbi Weiss gave a talk about how it was halakhically acceptable. During the Q/A me and my big mouth asked him the following question: "What about women leading Kabbalat Shabbat, that is also halakhically acceptable?" His answer was more or less, "I am in enough trouble already." Yishar Koach Rabbi Weiss.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

i see trouble in the horizon!
what after qabbalat shabbat?
they part ways for meiriv? so what did they achieve? fighting? what is to be gained for the tzibbur and klal yisrael?

[Shaul in Monsey]

Yeah, but can she cook?

[Shaul in Monsey]

I'm waiting for Weiss to matir feigeleh marriage. Congregation Ohr Basar will be established for those with the homo virus who can't find acceptance in any other orthodox venue. Harei ata mekudesh li betabaat zoo kdaat moshe vmoshe.

[JTSgrad]

Question 1: Aren´t there like five "partnership" minyanim in Manhattan? I thought that this was standard practice in the Shirah Chadashah minyanim.

Comment 1: Shaul, it is betaba'at zoh. "Zoo" means "that", like "'am zoo gaalta" (the people THAT you redeemed).

[IH]

Yosef ben Matitya: ask your daughters or wife...

[Lisa]

Mobius, Shira Chadasha isn't Orthodox either. Orthoprax at best, but I'm not sure I'd even go that far.

[david]

Lucky I don't attend that shul. Hearing a woman's voice would cause me to immediately run to the bathroom and jack off.

[seguro]

the fault here lies with the OU , which tolerates this,and USCJ , which hasn't yet invited them to join....

[randomthought]

lol david.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

I hope her talis is made from kevlar.

[kk]

why dont they have coed bathrooms at rabbi weiss shul to encourage diversity

[LESKid]

Excuse me but I did this as an 8 year old boy! This is not so innovative as it is is being spinned as minors are permitted to lead this portion of the service. if he really had guts the Rabah would be leading maariv.

[jewishwhistleblower]

It sounds like a continuation of the partnership minyanim that have been around for several years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_Minyan ), particularly if the minyan is not in the main sanctuary and not the main service which is what the letter indicates.

It's unfortunate that Rabbi Weiss, a former (I assume so, although he has never publicly retracted his support)supporter of alleged child molester Rabbi Gafni is one of the few rabbis latched on to by those of good intentions who want to increase the role of women legitimately in the Orthodox world. By lending his name to Gafni and protecting/hiring Gafni's main goon Rabbi Saul Berman immediately after Gafni's most recent fall, Rabbi Weiss has demonstrated his low character.

[Sans Shlong]

Weiss is already plotting his next move: the first ever orthodox Jewish female circumcision ceremony.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Tzipporah was the 1st Orthodox female mohel.

[Althelion]

Me too David, me too. Hell, just thinking about a woman's voice from the bima makes me as hard as week old mandel bread.

A couple of questions:

1. Is she going to hit the mikvah before and/or after?

2. What'll she be wearing?

[zigi]

She'll be backed up by the Kol Isha Erva Ensemble.

[rabbidw]

Jewishwhistleblower, can't a person be wrong without being evil? Avi never claims that he speaks with "DAAS TORAH" He is not a Navi.

[harold]

There is no problem here. It is plain as the nose on one's face and that is that the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is not an orthodox synagogue. Thats it!

I don't know anyone who goes there but if I were orthodox I would simply choose another shul unless there is no orthodox synagogues nearby. Then I assume a breakaway minyan would probably be formed. Then again, maybe the clientele is really not orthodox anyway and a change in direction was forthcoming anyway.

Looking forward to some juicy shabbos night action here at FailedMessaih!!!

[Shaul in Monsey]

What's the difference between your paycheck and your shvontz?

You don't have to beg the rabba to blow your paycheck.

[Shmarya]

There is no problem here. It is plain as the nose on one's face and that is that the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is not an orthodox synagogue. Thats it!

Please.

You're so ignorant it's really shocking.

You may choose not to follow halakhic opinions that allow women to lein or lead minor parts of the prayer service, but your choice does not make those halakhic opinions treife.

[dan]

One more nail in this "Rabbi's" coffin. I sincerely hope it is the last.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>Jewishwhistleblower, can't a person
>be wrong without being evil? Avi
>never claims that he speaks
>with "DAAS TORAH" He is not a Navi.

What does this have to do with being a Navi?

He has never publicly retracted his support of alleged child molester Rabbi Gafni to whom he lent his name despite the information out there at the time (and later) and he protected/hired Gafni's main goon Rabbi Saul Berman immediately AFTER Gafni's most recent fall. Rabbi Weiss has demonstrated his low character.

[Radical Feminist]

jwb writes "Tzipporah was the 1st Orthodox female mohel.
Yeah, and she wasn't even Jewish.

[Maskil]

JTSgrad,

Comment 1: Shaul, it is betaba'at zoh. "Zoo" means "that", like "'am zoo gaalta" (the people THAT you redeemed).

You need to take that course in dikduk again. While "zu" means "that-which" in Tanach, the natural development of language allows the transition of the word "zo" in post-biblical Hebrew (which we find on the earliest manuscripts with Babylonian diacritics) to "zu," and as a nation with our own language the descent along the 'o' vowel line from "zo" to "zu" is purely natural language development - whether completely or regionally among us - and is today a valid variation (alongside "zot") of the feminine form of "zeh," meaning "this" (and no longer the biblical "that-which").

[Bassy the Haredy Slayer]

JWB,

You are idiot! did you collaborator ever retracted her claim that Jewish people eat babies.

Until this day she refuse to eat chicken because it reminds her the flesh of the babies she consumed before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYm5YtaCQo

[Apikorus]

This no big deal- just Avi weiss trying to grab the spotlight again, doing something that is already being done worldwide in partnership minyanim. Anyways HIR has been taken over by radicalized Ortho feminists- too bad it used to be a welcoming shul for men.

[Yonah]

I'm very interested to see how little halakhic argumentation is used by those opposed to this. The reason is that for many people, their deep gut opposition has nothing to do with halakhah.

Here's an interesting analysis of kol b'ishah ervah:

http://www.jewishideas.org/rabbi-david-bigman/new-analysis-kol-bisha-erva

Bottom line, this really isn't that radical. Plenty of poskim say there is no issue with a woman singing holy material (tehillim, no less!!), especially with others joined in.

Or maybe I should say, this isn't that radical HALAKHICALLY. Socially, it's huge. Unfortunately too many "frum" Jews aren't interested in the study and application of Torah and halakhah if it leads to a result that might make them look less in step with their community. It's all about appearances...

[chaim]

chaim says
are all the comments here written on shabbos?

[Mr. Apikoros]

Got a problem with that? (The sun won't set for another 25 minutes here, btw.)

[Mr. Apikoros]

BTW, Chaim, if you're anywhere in the western hemisphere, you wrote your comment on Shabbos.

[MIkal W. Grass]

MM3, what say you?

[WoolSilkCotton]

If we write here on Shabbos, Chaim, will you like us even less, or possibly hate us?

Does raising the issue do anything for you? Have you considered not bringing up the matter, so as not to embarrass your fellow Yidden?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I wonder if this is an attempt to reach out to the partnership minyanim movement? The limitations of the partnership minyanim are as clear as the many wonderful aspects - having a "brick and mortar" base of operations at a place like HIR might make a lot of sense as things develop over the next few years. What a wild, wacky, courageous guy.

[harold]

Nu? So what happened? Anyone?

[itchiemayer]

I wonder at which minyan Rabbi Weiss davened. To each his own I guess, but I wouldn't daven in that synogogue.

Rabbi Soloveitchik, ZT"L probably regrets from his grave allowing Avi Weiss into RIETS (YU Rabbinical school).

It's a free country, and you can choose how you want to practice your religion. I believe Avi Weiss crossed the line many years ago. Again, to each his own.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Harei ata mekudesh li betabaat zoo kdaat moshe vmoshe.

Posted by: Shaul in Monsey | July 30, 2010 at 01:59 PM

M'kudash; it's pu'al (passive). This form is used in some double ring ceremonies, when "Ani l'dodi" just isn't enough.

For those of you, and it seems like more than a few, who get off on a woman's voice, check out some of the chazzaniyot at the liberal shuls. Got some real voices there.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Feh. At least the Reformatives are honest and don't call themselves Orthodox.

[harold]

There is no problem here. It is plain as the nose on one's face and that is that the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is not an orthodox synagogue. Thats it!
Please.
You're so ignorant it's really shocking.
You may choose not to follow halakhic opinions that allow women to lein or lead minor parts of the prayer service, but your choice does not make those halakhic opinions treife.
You just don’t get it. What we have here is a new “species” if this takes hold it will need a new name to identify itself. When one says a shul is Reformed or Conservative or Orthodox we are saying that if a person enters the building there is an expectation that a set of guidelines will be followed. A husband and wife who want to pray sitting next to each other expects to be able to do that in a Reformed temple while an Orthodox man expects that when he enters an Orthodox shul that there will be a mechitza and no microphone is used. Virtually ALL orthodox people when they enter a shul for Friday night services expects that the services will be conducted by a man. As Tevya would say “Tradition”. I am not saying that having a woman conduct Friday night services is right or wrong what I am saying is that to do so requires that that shul have a “name” or label other than Orthodox or at least a new adjective. As the religion evolves new words, labels, classifications or what not have to be created to keep up with the evolution as well. Who says that we must keep only the terms Orthodox, Conservative and Reform and all must be classified as such. Just look at the Orthdox, you already have Moden Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox.
I am sorry, a shul that has a female conducting services cannot be simply an Orthodox shul or even a Modern Orthodox it needs a different classification to identify itself.

[Shmarya]

if a person enters the building there is an expectation that a set of guidelines will be followed…I am sorry, a shul that has a female conducting services cannot be simply an Orthodox shul or even a Modern Orthodox it needs a different classification to identify itself.

Again, try to process.

There are legitimate ORTHODOX halakhic opinions that allow women to lein and lead minor parts of the prayer service.

Therefore, no one has the right halakhicly to say that a congregation that follows those ORTHODOX halakhic opinions is not Orthodox.

[Garnel Ironheart]

No Shmarya, you're wrong.
The very first siman in Yoreh Deah says that women can shecht animals. Ever met a woman shochet? No, and you're not going to even though it says in black and white that it's allowed. That's because there are some things which, even though the Shulchan Aruch permits it, aren't done and that gives it the force of tradition.
It's the same thing with a woman leading services. Yes, you can point to the Shulchan Aruch and say that it says nowhere that it can't be done. But it is done nowhere and that has the status of law.
And if you insist and say that it's okay because of this reasoning, then you also have to explain why it's suddenly okay for a man to sell his 3 year old daughter into marriage, because the halacha says that's also allowed and yet you won't find a rabbi who allows it.

[Shmarya]

No Shmarya, you're wrong…

No, GI, you are very wrong.

First of all, women did schecht until relatively recently.

You're confusing towns with large Jewish communities that appointed official schochtim with what went on in smaller towns and remote areas without officially appointed schochtim.

In the latter, women did schecht for their own families and sometimes for others.

In the former, the officially appointed schochtim were part of a revenue stream for the Jewish community and appointment to those positions was a way of giving employment to favored people in need of it.

And if you insist and say that it's okay because of this reasoning, then you also have to explain why it's suddenly okay for a man to sell his 3 year old daughter into marriage, because the halacha says that's also allowed and yet you won't find a rabbi who allows it.

The Jewish community responded to societal pressure when it banned child marriage, just as it responded to societal pressure when it banned polygamy.

What you are arguing in reality is that the Jewish community should NOT respond to societal pressure now and allow women to lein of lead minor parts of the prayer service – even though there is nothing in the Torah to prohibit them from doing so.

This is quite odd when you realize that rabbis deviated from the Torah itself when they banned child marriage and polygamy.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Rabbi Soloveitchik, ZT"L probably regrets from his grave allowing Avi Weiss into RIETS (YU Rabbinical school).

You would presume to speak for him on what basis?

[flailed]

Is this her???
Lamelle Ryman
Lamelle began Suzuki violin training at the ripe old age of 2, and has been singing and playing the violin ever since. Lamelle’s Grandpa Rawlins was a country fiddler in rural Iowa and Missouri, and Lamelle has carried on the family tradition. By the end of high school, she had toured Europe with a youth symphony, spent a summer at Interlochen Arts Camp, performed in professional productions of The Sound of Music and The King and I, won awards in the junior division of the Illinois State Fiddle Contest, played with the Illinois All-State Orchestra and taught violin for beginners after becoming certified to teach the Suzuki method. Music went on the back burner in college, but after a year in Israel and an immersion in Carlebach melodies and other traditional tunes, playing and singing with Ashira has reunited Lamelle with her passion for music. Lamelle is married to her college sweetheart, Rob (founder of the Society for Ashira Groupies), and is thrilled to be a full-time mama to Neshama, age 1. She is also the creator of an online resource for women’s reproductive health and parenting, www.journeymama.net.

[itchiemayer]

Common sense

[Neo-Conservaguy]

That's the best you can do - a weak generalization with no specific basis in fact? Oy - I expect better from you, having seen some of your more reasonable writing. You can state your opinion, but have no right - and clearly no argument - for trying to name-drop such a great rabbi who has passed.

[Ibn Ibrahim]

"No, and you're not going to even though it says in black and white that it's allowed. That's because there are some things which, even though the Shulchan Aruch permits it, aren't done and that gives it the force of tradition."

What bullshit. I'd shit on your idol of tradition if I was sure it wouldn't be glorifying it in the process.

[Maskil]

harold,

if a person enters the building there is an expectation that a set of guidelines will be followed…I am sorry, a shul that has a female conducting services cannot be simply an Orthodox shul or even a Modern Orthodox it needs a different classification to identify itself

There was a time, a very long duration of time, when the exact same thing was said about any shul in which the weekly sermon was delivered in any language other than Yiddish. The rabbis who had no balls stuck to Yiddish, the rabbis who had some "claimed" (as you would have put it, where you there) that they were Orthodox, and the rabbis with real balls (who knew the Torah, true ge'onei yisrael z"l) had no reservation from calling themselves "Reform." And this continued until 1890 with the Pittsburgh Platform when these shuls of shomrei torah u'mitzvot and talmidei hachamim that had been the "conservative 'branch' of Reform" for up to fifty years had no choice but to remove the title "Reform." Some, with time, eventually resumed the title "Orthodox," while others remained in limbo (from those that remained in limbo many were the precursor to "Conservative" - meaning that their descendants and heirs would allow breaches in halacha - but this devolution would not occur until 23 years later - for they had once been known as the conservative Reform shuls).

Some "Orthodox" shuls, with time however, moved "left" and began to allow their sermons to be delivered in the vernacular (i.e. the most commonly understood language, which was no longer Yiddish) as well as move the women's section to the same level as the men's (in place of the "Orthodox" balcony) all in the tradition of these "Reform" shuls of yore.

I have been young and I have also aged, I have davened in many shuls, but I have davened in not more than one shul that has not adopted these, and other, "Reform" charactaristics. Have you?!

[Schneersontology]

whats with the woman wearing a funny hat? is this an adaptation of the hasidic funny hat minhag?

[Lee]

I just dont get it - does she want to be a part-time man? Why does she want SOME male roles / responsibilities and not others? Would she like her husband to give birth to the next child as well? Would she like a baby girl to get a circumcision? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? There are plenty of ways for a female to honor herself and I feel like what she is doing is actually putting woman down not up.

[nical]

can she pee standing up .....get back to me when she can

I can

[Rabbi Dr. Bernhard Rosenberg]

Bernhard Roasenberg // August 2, 2010 at 8:38 am | Reply

Regarding the Rabbi Avi Weiss story,. I was threatened by the RCA president to resign lest they ruin the shidduchim of my children and that my wife and I would burn in Hell,

Gee things have changed. Rabbi Rosenberg 732

Yeshiva University Commentator — Volume 62, Issue 4
Rabbi Dr. Bernhard Rosenberg, a YU musmach and the spiritual leader of the Conservative egalitarian Congregation Beth-El in Edison, New Jersey, …
commie.droryikra.com/archives/v62i4/news/rosenberg.ht… – Similar This is now on the internet when you google. Interesting? Rabbi Rosenberg

Rabbi Dr. Bernhard Roasenberg // August 4, 2010 at 5:05 am | Reply

I would like to clarify my episode occured in l992.This publicity has opened up old wounds. The good news is that 3 of my four children married frum spouses and my youngest just spent two yeays studing in a Yeshiva in Israel. I wish Rabbi Weiss well but hope the media will be more tolerant with him. Let this issue be fought on Halachic grounds not frumkeit vs.