Bill Would Force Haredi Schools To Teach Math, Science, Civics, English Or Lose State Funding

Currently, the Education Ministry funds many haredi institutions that don't adhere to the core curriculum, or that adhere to it only partially. In the smaller haredi yeshivas, where high-school age children are schooled, no non-religious subjects are taught at all.

Bill could force Haredi schools to teach math - or lose funding

Unclear whether current right-leaning coalition will vote in favor of bill, aiming to ensure core curriculum at ultra-Orthodox schools.

By Jonathan Lis • Ha'aretz
 
A new bill could force ultra-Orthodox schools that enjoy government funding to teach core subjects such as math, sciences, English, civics and others. The bill, sponsored by Likud MK Tzipi Hotovely and Kadima MK Meir Sheetrit, suggests that the government refrain from funding institutions that fail to comply with the core curriculum.

"The aim is to ensure that recognized but unofficial educational institutions in the Haredi sector will be bound to teach the core curriculum," MK Sheetrit told Haaretz on Saturday. "Today, unfortunately, most of Israel's schoolchildren are either Haredi or Arab, which means that most of the next generation is not receiving any kind of education in Zionism, work or service," he added.

Sheetrit could not venture a guess whether the bill would be passed by the current right-leaning coalition, but he voiced hope that his colleague Hotovely would be able to convince her party, including Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar, to support the bill.

The Knesset will vote on the bill during the coming week.

The core curriculum is comprised of the subjects and topics every educational institution in Israel is required to teach in order to be recognized by the Education Ministry. The aim of the core curriculum is to provide students with equal footing in integrating in the job market.

In practice, the Education Ministry funds many ultra-Orthodox institutions that don't adhere to the core curriculum, or that adhere to it only partially. In the smaller ultra-Orthodox yeshivas, where high-school age children are schooled, no non-religious subjects are taught at all.

Update 7 am CDT 7-11-10 – Here is a translation of Yediot Achronot's coverage courtesy of Didi Remez of Coteret.com:

New Bill: “Teach Math and English or Be Shut Down”
Amir Shoan and Zvika Brott • Yedioth Ahronoth (p. 2)

Following an exposé by Yedioth Ahronoth that was published over the weekend, the political battle in the Knesset over the core curriculum—basic subjects taught in the public schools—is expected to resume.

The core curriculum allocates several school hours per week to teaching each of the basic subjects. Although the main subjects are arithmetic, English and science, the curriculum also includes many hours of subjects that are taught as part of religious studies in any case, such as Bible, the Mishnah and Talmud, and Hebrew. By order of the attorney general in 2003, the Haredi schools receive budgets commensurate with the number of hours that they teach the core curriculum. For example, a school that teaches only 90 percent of the core curriculum hours should receive only 90 percent of the money. In practice, this is not what happens.

According to the exposé, state funds were transferred to Haredi schools for the purpose of teaching the core curriculum even though those schools taught far less of it than they reported. A new bill in which both the coalition and the opposition are partners, and which will be brought up in the Knesset this week, seeks to stipulate once more that all schools shall be obligated to teach the subjects of the core curriculum—which will also be redefined in the bill—with no connection to the question of state funding.

This means that the Haredi high-school yeshivas in which the core curriculum subjects are not taught today, and the primary schools in the Haredi sector, which teach only 55 percent of them, will not be allowed to operate if they do not devote at least 75 percent of their time to them. However, the yeshiva principals will be able to choose up to five percent of the general population of pupils who will be defined as “gifted” and will be permitted to study a reduced version of the curriculum, devoting most of their school hours to religious subjects. The new proposal was introduced by MK Tzippi Hotovely (Likud), the chairwoman of the Committee for the Advancement of the Status of Women, and MK Einat Wilf (Labor), who have been joined by many other MKs.

The bill is to be introduced following an exposé that was published in Yedioth Ahronoth’s weekend supplement. The exposé, which reveals the problem of supervision of Haredi education, shows that for many years, the Education Ministry has been ignoring violations by schools in the sector, estimated at NIS 20 million per year. The exposé also revealed that the inspectors, who belong to the parties whose schools they supervise, reported a higher number of teaching hours of the core curriculum than the number of hours actually taught.

According to the new bill, all schools—public schools and schools that are recognized as unofficial (which include most of the Haredi schools)—will be obligated to devote at least 75 percent of their teaching hours to subjects of the core curriculum to be determined by law. The list of these subjects, which will be expanded, will include arithmetic, science, English, history, civics, Hebrew, Bible and Jewish heritage (or Arabic language and Arab heritage in the Arab sector). In addition, the bill stipulates that the Education Ministry is to establish an inspection agency that will supervise the various schools in order to ensure that the core curriculum subjects are taught for the number of hours required by the ministry’s plan. The goal is to increase the number of pupils in the Haredi and Arab sectors who study general subjects and strengthen Jewish studies in secular schools.

Another paragraph in the bill stipulates that national standardized tests are to be administered in both the primary schools and the high schools. Today, the Haredi sector has its own internal tests, which differ from those that are prepared by the Education Ministry.

In addition, the bill mandates that the Education Ministry is to establish a supervisory agency to keep close track of the various schools in order to make sure that the core curriculum subjects are taught for the number of hours that the ministry requires. However, the education minister will be able to empower the yeshiva principals to choose an “elite group” of outstanding pupils in religious subjects who will be able to devote most of their time to these subjects while studying core curriculum subjects for fewer hours. The number of these pupils is to be no more than five percent of the number of students in each graduating class.

“This bill expresses a consensus among the Zionist majority in the State of Israel,” MK Hotovely said. “The core curriculum is the basis for unity in Israeli society. It is inconceivable that a pupil in a secular high school should not be familiar with the Eighteen Blessings, just as it is inconceivable that a Haredi pupil should not know the words to the national anthem. The bill is not anti-Haredi but, rather, is a bill whose purpose is to deal with the comprehensive ignorance in all sectors of the educational system.”

MK Wilf added, “Schools that do not allow their graduates to be part of Israeli society have no right to government funding. The bill sends a message that the time has come to wage a political battle over this basic principle.” The new bill is expected to have its first hearing in the Knesset plenum after the summer recess.

Comments

[NotHarold]

Math and science are the greatest threat to the hareidi cults.

There is no way they can properly teach the "scientific method" without ruining their cultish schtick.

If they learn math some kids will learn astronomy and astrophysics. Once you know even basic cosmology the kabbala hareidi crap is not just dumb its hard to believe anyone buys it.

[nachos]

Israel is the only country in the world where bank robbers kiss the mezuzah as they leave with their loot.

Harold:

Somebody sent me this quote and I thought it would be perfect for you!!

[A. Nuran]

Every one of these will be destructive to haredism and good for Israel.

Learning English will enable them to communicate with people outside their bubble. They will be exposed to people with different backgrounds with different ways of thinking and be able to understand them. Good for their social, emotional and intellectual development. Bad for a lifestyle which is utterly dependent on never being exposed to alternatives.

Civics will teach them how Israeli society is organized and why it was built that way. They will not rely solely on the distortions provided by the Great Old Ones (and I mean that in the most Lovecraftian sense :) This will draw them closer to civic life.

Science, well now, that is the most dangerous thing of all. Science treats the data as king, teaches you to think critically, ask questions and follow where the inquiry leads you. It also teaches you to abandon your assumptions when they are disproved no matter how attached you were to them. That strikes directly and fatally at the heart of religious fanaticism of all sorts.

What's more, all of these will make the students more employable outside the ghetto. This will put them in contact with people from different backgrounds and make them less dependent on charity doled out by the rabbis.

[harold]

I sure hope the bill gets passed.

There is so much math and science that is "safe" to teach without running into a conflict with religious issues. If the government is smart they will work with the haredi educators and come with a program that is modern and well rounded.

Most advancements and job opportunities are in the engineering and medical fields and the math and science background that are required for those fields in general are not in conflict with religious teachings.

[NotHarold]

Any casual study of science reveals that electricity is not fire. You can't have yeshiva kids understanding this cuz they'll stop buying the no video game thing on saturdays. Richard Feynmman was an actual Jew and pointed this out a long time ago.

I've NEVER met a hasid nor yeshiva kid who has even heard of Feynman.

[harold]

You can't have yeshiva kids understanding this cuz they'll stop buying the no video game thing on saturdays.

What nonsense. Look here in the states, many haredim get regents diplomas and understand just what electricity is without their minds blowing up.

I was a yeshiva boy and did read (obviously not while in yeshiva) Feynman's excellent Lectures on Physics (volumes 1,2 & 3). The one that I used in college was Halliday & Resnick Physics (I & II).

[Radical Feminist]

If we do not seriously begin demanding high educational standards in Israel we are finished as a nation.
It boggles my mind that in a Jewish State we are allowing people to be illiterate in the name of Judaism. Huh?
This is snot the ethics I was raised with, that's for sure.

[A. Nuran]

Harold, science is fundamentally unsafe for any revealed religion.

Science is not a bunch of facts from which you can pick and choose the ones which don't challenge your assumptions or reveal uncomfortable truths. It's a way of approaching the world and asking questions which is radically at odds with the life of fear, obedience, and strict limits to inquiry which lie at the heart of anything from Charedism to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Once you learn how science is done you are pretty much required to ask inconvenient questions and follow where the answers lead, to reject the argument from authority out of hand and acknowledge that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

[NotHarold]

Feynman writes specifically about yeshiva types n electricity. Read that.

And some um "types" will be able to do physics and still be a bit um off.

Lets remember feynmans lecture series ends with the josephson junction and we all know what happened to the guy who came up with that idea.

In general once a yeshiva kid learns astronomy.....not just from a book but from field stuff n experiments.....the bs thing is over.

Some people think its moral to hit kids and no data changes their "morality". Same deal with people cursed with "magical thinking".

[harold]

In general once a yeshiva kid learns astronomy

If you note I did say "If the government is smart they will work with the haredi educators and come with a program that is modern and well rounded." Obviously Astronomy and sections of, say, Biology (Darwin theory) are problematic. Most forward looking sciences are not problematic while ones that deal with antiquity (of which Astronomy falls into because of the whole concept of millions of light years) would have to be excluded in the compromise curriculum. However sciences like Newtonian mechanics, electromagnetic theory, optics, fluid dynamics, chemistry, virtually all of math, english etc is "safe subjects" and can give a nice foundation, certainly for haredim. I really don't expect the haredi world to produce Astrophysicists or Paleontologists, but no reason why they can't go into the I.T. field, Medical Technician, or even Mechanical, Chemical or Electrical engineering.

[harold]

make that are "safe subjects"

[David]

There is so much math and science that is "safe" to teach without running into a conflict with religious issues. If the government is smart they will work with the haredi educators and come with a program that is modern and well rounded.

There is no such thing as a "haredi educator" and haredim should not be allowed to influence the curriculum in any way because they will want text books censored etc..

Making education compulsory for haredim is an EXCELLENT idea but compliance and educatuional outcomes need to be closely monitored in case they try to fraudulently claim they are teaching secular subjects just to get the funding.

[A. Nuran]

make that are "safe subjects"

Not if they're taught as science.
Superstition, lies, and the argument from authority all fail when they encounter science. And that covers....mmm....pretty much all of Orthodox anything.

[A E ANDERSON]

Not enough have to have the subjects "taught." I say make funding contingent on student performance in standardised, national, blindly-graded examinations. That will make it much, much harder for the haredim to play shenanigans and trickim (yes, the word has made its way into Modern Hebrew).

The few minor areas where there is a science/faith problem are easily explained away with the pat answers already employed by the Orthos where science is mandatory (e.g., God created the world with fossils in it, etc). There is a massive body of literature in this genre, much of it in English. SR Hirsch, Munk, Avigdor Miller, Schneerson himself even! offer a treasure trove of Jewish apologetic literature meant for the faithful confronted by science.

Besides, the haredim could use a little chizuq emunah of the type that only a little confrontation with science can provide. The way they behave shows they have little faith in a providential God, or pretty much anything but their rebbes and gedoylim.

Ha, and they could learn much about the effect of inbreeding on natural selection by looking in the mirror!

[MR]

There is no reason to require all of these subjects. Fluency in English and Math would be enough. The rest could be acquired on their own, once the core skills are in place.

[A. Nuran]

There is a massive body of literature in this genre, much of it in English. SR Hirsch, Munk, Avigdor Miller, Schneerson himself even! offer a treasure trove of Jewish apologetic literature meant for the faithful confronted by science.

And every bit of it is lies and bullshit of the worst sort. I've waded through more of that crap than you can imagine. At best it's lousy science. Most of it doesn't even rise to that level. It's cherry-picking, shoot the arrows and draw the circles around them, anti-scientific superstitious twaddle written by people with no understanding of the fields they are massacring.

And every field comes smack up against Torah or Talmud in short order. There are more than seven planets. The Earth goes around the Sun. Mice and lice are not spontaneously generated. Washing your hands with water that has incantations mumbled over it doesn't prevent disease. The simplest statistical analysis shows that mezzuzah placement doesn't affect rocket fire. Looking at your wife's Holy of Holies doesn't cause birth defects. Electricity isn't fire. The world is billions of years old, not thousands. The evidence for evolution is so widespread and robust in so many fields that no honest informed person can have any doubts. Pi is not equal to three. Human beings can create life from non-living matter without Divine intervention.

And so on.

If science is taught honestly it comes into immediate conflict with dogma. Giving them lying, ignorant apologetics to change the conclusions to something more palatable isn't teaching them science. It's the complete and utter opposite of science and should disgust any honest person.

[A. Nuran]

Your idea of making funding contingent on students passing a national standard test is excellent. I have a lot of issues with NCLB here in the States. In Charedi schools in Israel we're trying to ensure that they are actually being taught the material at all.

[Dr. Dave]

A Nuran writes:
There are more than seven planets.

Maybe not. Pluto got downgraded from planet status and who knows who's next.

I think Mercury is on shaky grounds and better get a good PR campaign going or we will be down to seven!!!!

maybe the chareidim were secretly behind the Pluto is not a planet campaign

[harold]

haredim should not be allowed to influence the curriculum

I am sorry, but unless you like riots and defiance you compromise. The handful of problematic topics will not detract from giving the haredim a quality education. When I was in yeshiva and took Biology they did not teach about evolution, it was in the regents review books, it was on the regents, I read it and survived. If I didn't read the section it would not have impacted my grade much (I don't even remember if there was even one question on the regents on that topic).

[Jay]

IMO- YU, Touro, Einstein Medical School, Cordoza Law School, etc... have proven that science and religion can not only co-exist, they can support each other.

[harold]

IMO- YU, Touro, Einstein Medical School, Cordoza Law School, etc... have proven that science and religion can not only co-exist, they can support each other.

Precisely, my daughter went to Bnos Bais Yaakov, SKA and YU/Stern and got a quality education. She wll be starting Medical School in August. It can be done!

[Jay]

Yes it can. It's a shame that the RW/Yeshivish circles, the Hassidim and Haredi despise all that YU stands for.

[A. Nuran]

Dr. Dave that's nonsense. Earth is a planet. We have discovered hundreds of extra-solar planets. Ceres, Pluto, Haumea, Makemake, and Eris are all dwarf planets which is a hair-splitting historical distinction.

The real problem is that the Talmud says "Seven", so even if we discovered a dozen the faithful would be forced to deny reality because it didn't conform to their Bronze Age superstitions.

[A E ANDERSON]

There's no reason a haredi student shouldn't be able to receive substantial recognition for achievement in Tanakh, Rabbinic literature, etc., if these subjects were examined to a high standard (O levels, A levels, perhaps even beyond). This would serve the purpose of making sure that the yeshiva students actually learn something, and are not mere line items on a budget, or IDF exemption list.

In terms of general education, core subjects are not sufficient. The depth and breadth must correspond to international matriculation/baccalaureate/secondary-leaving standards. These in turn correspond to the minimum educational standards required for entry level work or training in industry, or subsequent study.

To intentionally cripple children with anything short of this amounts, frankly, to child abuse. Of course, the haredi "machers" were once able to set up vast vocational training and placement schemes with public funds. As a matter of political patronage, they could hand out positions in fields like electronics, diamond cutting and so on, the basic skills for which could be acquired in haredi sponsored, on site courses in Bene Beraq and similar places without the distractions of girls, cafes and so on.

But today, even basic trades -- plumbing, carpentry/joinery, electric, drywall even -- require a high level of literacy, numeracy, and general knowledge that probably equals or exceeds even a typical US community college graduate. Product manuals are detailed and precise, governmental building codes even more so. Even the Shoav mayim and hotev etz often have to receive public certification by means of a examination these days (e.g., child care workers, food handlers).

It's interesting how the haredi leaders, זו לעומת זו, feather their own economic nests and that of their offspring and patrons. Nobody's worried about them, their extensive silver cupboards, their crystal chandeliers, their phat pads in J-m and Boro Park. No, it's the ever growing haredi lumpenproletariat, that exponentially growing mass of offspring that the haredi world produces by failing to practice even rational birth control.

There are only so many jobs for rabbis, rosh yeshivas, rebbes and religious functionaries. In the age of Walmart, Tesco, Supersol, Coles and Amazon, there is little room left for the Jewish peddler, who has effectively been replaced by Ebay. Except for the few that can be absorbed in the internal haredi economy, the lot of the unqualified haredi lumpenproletariat will be the same as other urban mobs in history: marginal existence, reliance on a public dole, constant civil unrest, rioting, extreme politics of anger, and finally, violence, insurrection and terror.

I want to take another bold step, and argue that the Israeli state is to blame in great part for this problem by intentionally discriminating against Yiddish language and culture. By elevating cultural Zionism into the all-encompassing behemoth that it became, it failed to serve significant segments of the community who were not ready for the Hebrew Borg to assimilate them. For them, resistance was not futile: Yiddish became their language of resistance and refuge from even the benefits of a well-governed society.

This said, I argue that the Jewish state should come clean and apologise for its brutal suppression of Ashkenazi culture by elevating Yiddish to the status of an official, national language, in which a full programme of curriculum and instruction would be made available those whose native language remains Yiddish.

But the state must demonstrate good faith in doing this.It must first apologise for the damage it has done to Yiddishkeit (Yiddish culture), along the lines, say, of the apologies the Australian government has made for what it has done to its aboriginals. And it must undertake to provide a non-politicised educational curriculum in Yiddish.

It might be too late for the Israeli government to apologise for its exorcism of Yiddishkeit. Most haredim these days speak Hebrew far better than they do Yiddish. Still, I think the symbolic option should be there for them. And the Israeli government has a debt to Jewish history that it must repay.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>many haredim get regents diplomas and understand just what electricity is

See, there is *no* problem. We can presume this is 100% true, so there is no problem with any Jewish person studying science (and math) in a serious way. Torah will help with the science studies, and science will help with the Torah studies and everyone will be happy.

I also wish to add, that anyone should have the civil liberties to educate their children as they see fit.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>I also wish to add, that anyone should have the civil liberties to educate their children as they see fit.

Oh I forget a small point: ...so long as they are taking full responsibility for the results of the education that _they_ provide.

:)

[A E ANDERSON]

Those shilling for haredi interests will often put forth statistics showing that many haredim actually do gain secular secondary educational credentials. This is a misleading truth: girls are generally allowed, even required, to complete the "English" or secular curriculum, while the boys are shielded from it, often deceptively by subterfuge.

[Chicago Sam]

Well, perhaps there is hope for the Orthodox troglodytes after all! I am glad to see that the state is coming down hard on these Haredi primitives. Hey, if the Beta Yisrael can catch up after living in the Stone Age, maybe the Haredim can too--provided their "Gedolim" do not get in the way.

[Bill]

Nuran,

You are absolutely correct!

[NotHarold]

Eh religion is by definition BAD SCIENCE!

I've met many girls who went to YU and found them all to have lousy info on bio and chem. They were taught to memorize. I would NEVER go to an MD who was haredi nor should you...for the same reason you never go to a witchdoctor.

Harold talked about "darwin" which shows he didn't get a real science education.

No one with any academic backround talks about evolution as "teaching Darwin". This along with harold only knowing freshman texts shows what kinda person he is.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Guys Guys!! (I used Guy as a gender-free term, hope that's OK) Relax. Everything Harold said is fine: people can teach Darwin, or not teach Darwin. Whatever they want! I would love to make my personal recommendations (anytime, anywhere, to whoever will listen). And I do have good recommendations to meet any particular goals. However, I am not sure why I *should* feel that I have some right or obligation to tell anyone else how to educate *their* children. After all, it is Hashgachah Pratit who is whose children. So based on principles (perhaps label it liberterian) I would have to say that *anyone*, Charedim included, should have 100% say, and 100% decision and control over how they will educate their children. After all, are not they the ones ultimately responsible for the education, and the results of the education.. ? so I think, despite what I would think appropriate, I have to respect other choices other families will make.

[rabbidw]

Not tough enough. If parents do not send their children to schools that meet minimum educational standards, the students should be arrested for truancy, and the parents for encouraging truancy. Any parent that does not like the new rule will be entitled to a free one way ticket to anywhere in the world they want to go. Perhaps they would fit in with Iran or Saudi Arabia.
They want to riot? Throw them in jail!. They take, rather than give. They create a past that never existed. They then worship this imaginary past. Enough!! There is no mitzvah to live on charity. The halachah says that one should be able to support a family BEFORE you get married. They are not following halachah, they are perverting the halachah and creating a chillul hashem.
PS I am Orthodox and ashamed of these people.

[David]

According to the exposé, state funds were transferred to Haredi schools for the purpose of teaching the core curriculum even though those schools taught far less of it than they reported.

No surprise there....

[rabbidw]

I will make a small retreat. The chareidim should be allowed to teach whatever they want with two small provisos.
One: No government funds, unless the school meets govt. standards.
Two: Anyone who does not send his children to a govt. approved school gives up all claims to any govt. aid for himself and his children. If you do not prepare to earn a living in 21st century society, do not expect to live on Government handouts.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>I will make a small retreat. The chareidim should be allowed to teach whatever they want with two small provisos.

....as I said: anyone has (or should) have the liberty to educate their children as they see fit, *and* take responsibility for the results of the outcome.

ps: there is a Gemorah, strongly saying that a man has an obligation to teach his son a trade. I use the word "strongly" because as far as I know (which is little) this may not be a halachich requirement, but it is definitively the Jewish thing to do. And Pirkei Avot even gives the reasons: not having a trade brings one into temptation towards certain (or many) aveiros (anyone is welcome to check out the details for themselves). Therefore, in theory, there should be NO opposition to education for a trade. (these days that means math and science, just as much as when the Tanaaim and Amoraim wrote this they were thinking about things like agriculture, wine-making, tanning, carpentry..Shamai was a carpenter btw).

[Yoel Mechanic]

another little comment: If you are interested in easing all the tension, and religious coercion going on in Israel, some political action may be needed: the best party that will be moderate, democratic and end this sort of coercion, and have a balanced approach, is the Manhigut Yehudit faction within Likud, led by Moshe Feiglin. A little off topic for this blog-thread here, so I'll leave it up to anyone to check out their website if they wish.

[A E ANDERSON]

1. The state can and does mandate school attendance between certain ages.

2. The state can and does set educational standards.

3. A pupil who disagrees with Darwin or Galileo is perfectly within his/her right to answer the test question with the standard, expected answer and append a footnote stating that the test-taker, as a matter of faith, believes the Earth to be flat, or that men are not naturally selected from monkeys. Nobody is forcing anybody to believe anything, only to be responsible for knowing and discussing information arrived at by common convention within specific disciplines in a set form. Belief is utterly extraneous to this process. Science can simply be studied as knowledge, and doesn't have to be elevated into a world view.

4. The haredi quibble with all of this is likely be less with doctrine and faith and more with sex, which they seem to be hung up on, no pun intended. Haredim seem obsessed that they might see an uncovered female ankle and being so aroused commit the grave sin of ejaculating outside their wives vaginas.

(I have heard that the recent Israeli dispute between the Slonimers and the darker Separdis is based on one group permitting their little girls to wear knit socks while the other demands opaque hoisery for reasons of religious modesty. I have no way to acertain the veracity of this account.)

[seymour]

did this morons forget that
the ammoroim and taniium spoke and wrote and read a goyish language. or maybe they do not know that the gemura is written in Aramaic a goyish language and not yiddish or loshen kodesh

[NotHarold]

Yeshiva Education is technically an oxmoron if we define education as learning about reality.

[Harold]

I would NEVER go to an MD who was haredi nor should you...for the same reason you never go to a witchdoctor.

oh brother! What racist nonsense. Just what do you look for in a doctor? Blond hair and blue eyes?

[seymour]

I would NEVER go to an MD who was haredi nor should you...for the same reason you never go to a witchdoctor.

oh brother! What racist nonsense. Just what do you look for in a doctor? Blond hair and blue eyes?

Posted by: Harold | July 11, 2010 at 08:09 PM

wow I agree with you harold. I do bash the frum and the cherideim many times but that does not filter down then the individual.

PS i am very happy with the frum cardiologist I go to

[chaim]

anderson -

you must read a book titled "the infidel" by ayan hirsi ali. she is addressing islam, but i think the same problem arises here. her basic contention is that islam is an inherently anti-democratic etc. system and that the liberally-minded west fails to understand this and, consequently, becomes complicit in the internal abuses that islamic culture inflicts on its weakest in the name of "cultural sensitivity"... I think that the same basic dynamic goes on here. israeli society has spent more than 50 years pandering to the charedim, not oppressing them but supporting them in a terribly imbalanced welfare state that most of them take full advantage of while opposing its very existence. but who suffers? it is women who live highly restrictive lives (do not kid yourself, meah shearim is nothing like burrough park, it is infinitely more restrictive) it is the children who are raised in poverty and not given the choice or ability to do otherwise in adulthood b/c they dont even speak the national language, it is the men who are not scholars or who do not have the right connections who must while away their lives unable to work and gain self respect and unable to progress in the rabbinic field. as an earlier poster said, it is the average haredi who is most abused by this system, so abused that he typically lacks even the awareness even to direct his anger at its rightful target, his rabbis, and, instead, boils over about trivialities like pagan graves. I believe in the preservation of culture, but not at the cost of destroying lives.

i also might say that your contention that school mandate facts and not beliefs is foolish. the primary function of schools is to assimilate people into a society (read dewey). true, the society we want people assimilated into is one of open dialogue not simple dogmatic facts, but one cannot simply state the fact of an open society, one must come to believe in it as an ideal for it to exist. but a truly open society is fundamentally contrary to the form orthodoxy has taken. Eg. while we might openly debate the manner in which a divorce might take place, or even openly debate loopholes that might enable the retroactive annulment of a marriage so as to cut a recalcitrant husband out of the picture, we cannot debate whether to uphold the overriding principle that it is the husband and not the wife who has the right to divorce. But that is precisely the problem! the openness of the debate is NOT open to the very thing it must be open to, the thing that created the problem in the first place. if there is to be justice, all avenues to it must be open

[Bill]

"I would never want to go to an MD who is Haredi."

agreed.

A haredi physician will keep your dead or dying body tortured and mutilated with futile medical interventions in the name of their perverted interpetation of Halacha.

Haredim don't recognize brain death as death. They don't respect their patients' autonomy and right to refuse and withdraw medical interventions that are futile.

I'd be shocked if this comes as a surprise to most of this blog's readership.

[Bill]

Chaim,

you wrote beautifully and brilliantly!

[A. Nuran]

Torah will help with the science studies, and science will help with the Torah studies and everyone will be happy.

How will Torah help with science studies? I can't see what it has to bring to the table pedagogically, philosophically or technically. And how would it be better suited than Quran, the Vedas or the Gospels?

[Harold]

A haredi physician will keep your dead or dying body tortured and mutilated with futile medical interventions in the name of their perverted interpetation of Halacha.

Haredim don't recognize brain death as death. They don't respect their patients' autonomy and right to refuse and withdraw medical interventions that are futile.

And not only that, he will collect the blood from his Christian children patients for his Passover wine.

[Bill]

Harold,

the "blood libel" bit is getting old.

Nobody is falling for it these days.

[Bill]

"blood libel," "Nazi," "hitler" is what the Orthodox say when they are losing an argument on the merits.

[A. Nuran]

"blood libel," "Nazi," "hitler" is what the Orthodox say when they are losing an argument on the merits.

Which is why they say it constantly.

[Jeff]

And not only that, he will collect the blood from his Christian children patients for his Passover wine.

You're pathetic.

[A E ANDERSON]

The role of religious education is in part to identify those areas which might seem to clash with the general education or general experience, and teach ways to cope with the apparent conflicts.

In other words, the moral part of religious education is supposed to teach you, when you encounter a random hot blonde babe, why why you shouldn't just hold her down and f--k the s--t out of her just because you feel like it. Ditto for thy neighbor's wife, or pretty much anybody other than your own wife, as specifically allowed.

It's also supposed to teach you the values that underpin the prohibitions against killing, stealing, defrauding, together with the totality of necessary religious knowledge needed to confront the everyday world and its many temptations.

The dual Hebrew-secular systems generally have a full half-day to deal with a tiny handful of conflicts in which they indoctrinate their little believers. So as a practical matter, I suggest they get on with their indoctrinations, for which they have more than ample time, and cease bellyaching over every facet of the secular world that might from time to time confront them.

The burden is not and has never been on the world to conform itself to perceived haredi needs. Else, there would be no women, no temptations... all the world would be a haredi Disneyland. No matter what we do, temptation will always be there, merely obscured by another layer of easily removed raiment.

Temptation is on this Earth because God wills it to be here and for man to overcome it. If you don't get that message after the first few chapters of Genesis, no amount of Torah will help you.

Yes, much of post-Talmudic Jewish law dotes on the avoidance of temptation. But here we come to the classic distinction between עיקר and טפל: the purpose of avoiding temptation is not the object of the avoidance, but is merely secondary to the primary goal of avoiding sin. And here, we have had the misguided haredim entirely conflate and confuse the two ends, thereby robbing us of the ultimate moral instruction in favour of their petty and pathetic rules about segregated autobuses and footpaths/sidewalks.