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June 20, 2010

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Nobody

Shmarya, I am unable to link to the actual articles by clicking on 'coteret.com' that you listed. Please link us to the actual articles.

Yanky Roth

Bassy,
I doubt you saw a picture of Avraham Avinu with a shtreimel in the Jewish Press. Maybe in Hamodia or Yated. The Jewish Press is not a crazy yeshiversher paper like that.

chaim

anderson -

you totally missed what i was saying. i was talking about the RELIGIOUS courts being unable to respond justly because they are not equipped to entertain the whole notion of racism. i was simply pointing out that this is precisely the problem with what ovadia yosef wants. he wants people to use a court system that cannot adequately deal with the issue at hand... and this is highly problematic. That being said, i think there is a valid place for religious courts and that they COULD deal with the problem if they were inclined to do so. as i said earlier, there is no halachic category of race. in part this is a problematic blinding factor to issues of racial discrimination. on the other hand, it is a speaking silence: race is excluded from legal consideration because it has absolutely no valid place in Jewish affairs. but the batei dinim dont see this; all they see is their opposition to the state. next time read more carefully, i will not be accused of tacitly supporting racism or of supporting the unqualified use of a non-standard court system deficient with respect to its ability to respond to this and other matters unique to modern civilization

ruthie

this people...THIS is the problem....since when did someone make this man g-d??????????
he determines who has a share in the world to come???????
it's quite funny.

thank g-d, i know it's up to ONLY g-d, not human beings.

Reader

Separate shule and state and abolish religious parties. This will immediately solve 80% of the problem for both the religious and the secular, and the gov't will find it much harder to perpetrate various self-destructive shenanigans such as Oslo, etc.
There will be more of the honest, happy, productive people and the gov't will enjoy much greater tax revenues.

Mr. Apikoros

Imagine if schools in Mississippi, after Brown v. Board of Education and the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, turned to a board of arbitrators to decide whether schools were to be integrated, and the five guys on the arbitration panel were all named Billy Bob.

Michelle

Rabbinical Court: Emanuel Girls Together During Appeals
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/188572
Reported: 20:49 PM - Jun/20/10

A Jerusalem rabbinical court, chosen to arbitrate between the Slonim hassidic sect and the Noar K'halacha (Jewish Law Youth) organization, ruled Sunday night that petitions claiming racial discrimination at the Beit Ya'akov school for girls in the Binyamin region town of Emanuel could continue.

The court also ruled that all the girls of the school would learn together during the remaining week and a half of this school year, and that talks would continue during the summer vacation on arrangements for the next school year.

Michelle

B"H

Bassy, ROTFLMHO!

rabbiyaacov

Bassy you rock

who knows

Haredim are the true reform. Haredizm is 150 year old cultish religion loosely based on Judaism, Catholicism, Nitzsheism and European 19th century racism.

This is a modern cult, which, as most cults, clothes itself in pseudo-ancientness.

Yochanan Lavie

Thanks, Catcher.

Bassy the Haredi Slayer

When Sephardic rabbis send their children to Haredi schools, and start dressing in the clothing of 18th century Polish noblemen,
No!, this is the way bnei Israel dressed when they left Egypt, I even saw in the Jewish Press a picture of Avraham Avinu with a shtreimel, and if you do not believe it you have ho share in the World To Come, and you are not invited to my birthday

Catcher50

Neither good, bad, nor indifferent. These problems will never be addressed until courts in Israel and the significant movements in the US (including the standard Orthodox) recognize that most of the nonsense promoted by the Haredi is no more than three or four hundred years old (actually, most of the BS that they have promoted and is creating the anger is less than 150 years old) and is beginning to tear Klal Yisroel apart.

BTW, Yochanan Lavie, are you considering publishing. Your "retelling" of songs is terrific.

effie

No parents should have had to complain and sue. The State of Israel should be monitoring and preventing segregation in their schools.

Yochanan Lavie

Apologies to Alice Cooper:

Well we got no choice
All their girls are Goys
Not saying their "oys"
'Cause we found new ploys
Well we can't salute ya
Don't believe in the flag
We wear black suits, yeah
Never drag

School's out for Sephardim,
School's out for children
Decency's been blown to pieces

No more Torah
No more books
No more morah's dirty looks

Well we got no class
And we got no principles
We ain't got no derech eretz
We're too uneducated to rhyme

School's out for Sephardim
School's out forever
Decency's been blown to pieces

No more Torah
No more sefarim
No ahavat Yisrael for Sephardim

Out for Mizrachim
Morality falls
The Mikdash might not come back at all

School's out for decency
School's out for Sephardim
School's out with sinat chinam
School's out of Torah

seymour

harold if religious court rules the day there would be almost no difference between Iran and Israel

I have many black hat friends who have gone the beis din and all say they never saw a more corrupt system

harold

It is an outrage that the OECD's newest member, a purportedly "developed" country would condone 1950s style segregation

You are right. The Supreme Court should abolish all forms of segregation. All boys only schools should allow girls to attend and all the girls only school should allow boys to attend. If they don’t like it - off to jail!

Unless of course, segregating by sex is ok - but then we have the problem with men and women only buses - Oy Vey!

seymour

ovadia yosef has confirmed what anti Semites has been saying for years that Jews do not feel they are part of the country they live in, do not care about their laws and so on.

Thank you ovadia yosef for finally clarifying that publicly

Michelle

B"H

Nicely said, AE Anderson!

seymour

big deal ovadia yosef has said many outrageous things in the past chalk up another one

A E ANDERSON | Miami, Fla.

Which court system will treat who unjustly? Do you mean that a court system that will not allow racism, that will ban segregation, that will not allow conceited Ashkenazim to lord it over simple Sephardim, that will not allow white preference over black simply because of the colour of their skin?

It is an outrage that the OECD's newest member, a purportedly "developed" country would condone 1950s style segregation -- APARTHEID -- in its school system ... for little girls no less! And it is shocking that this very state allows racist clerics like Ovadiah Yosef to have occupied national offices of honour and allows them to continue to draw state pensions when they are little more than Haredi Oreos and Eggplants.

What should be done? Israeli prosecutors should carefully monitor the utterances of these clerics for breaches of the law (incitement, etc.) and bring these ringleaders and their followers to the bar of justice. The Knesset should also consider a mechanism to censure not only its members but also state officeholders and pensioners who promote racism and race hatred.

What amazes is that some of the posters here actually think there is some remote iota of merit in favour of segregation, that, as one put it "secular courts do not understand the concept of chinuch." bull charah! What, that haredim think their little girls will be tainted and corrupted by association with (equally religious) girls from Sephardic families?

We are talking about state funded schools that have to adhere to standards. If there are a few religious nut cases that want more religion than the state is prepared to provide, say a monastic track for ultra-haredim, they are perfectly free to obtain such instruction for their daughters privately, without state participation in their racist outlook or religious meshugas. In the United States, similarly situated religious extremists tend to choose the "home schooling" format as preferable. But this is about more: this is about parents who want the state to participate in their racism.

Let me back up a step: had these haredim protested on non-racial grounds, i.e. that little girls were being corrupted by specific behaviours on the part of certain little girls, this would not be a racist complaint, and the parents' view might have some merit. Instead, they have chosen to frame their worldview in a racist way. That cannot be allowed nor condoned in a word where we have collectively said good bye to racism, together with all the ills that stem from it (the Holocaust, Apartheid, etc.)

There is a disturbing tendency in haredi circles and among haredi apologists to say that secular courts or secular government does not understand them. It does not need to understand them. Rather, as people who tremble before the Lord, the Haredim need to conduct themselves in an exemplary fashion, not to attract the undue attention of law enforcers, not to violate the laws in word, speech or deed. Were they to be machmir in this respect, I maintain that all else would peacefully fall into place in an atmosphere of concord and harmony.

Instead, these latter day religious sectarians have elected to constitute themselves as a state within a state, as extra-legal criminal gangs, an state beneficiaries without reciprocal obligation to the state that sustains them. This is obviously a situation that demands correction by the political authorities under the very real possibility of Israel ceasing to be regarded as a democratic state.

Dr. Dave

Oh and for those quoting Pirkei Avot:

"Rabbi Elazar of Modin said, one who desecrates sacred objects, one who disgraces the festivals, one who shames his fellow in public, one who annuls the covenant of our forefather Abraham, or one who interprets the Torah not in accordance with Jewish law -- even if he has Torah [study] and good deeds, he has no share in the World to Come."

Who embarrassed those girls publicly?

Who "may have Torah learning but are interpreting torah not in accordance with Jewish law"
- the nonsense about the dress code
- oppressing gerim
- claiming that fish declared kosher by Tannaim are teif
- by lying cheating and stealing
-by inventing chumrot that are not in accordance with Jewish law?

One should be careful of making accusations.

Adam Neira

Rabbi Obadiah is incorrect about his world to come ostracism judgement. Some Rabbis are clutching at straws at the moment. The petty delineations between the various Jewish sects are going to be erased. G-d is making sure of this. There is a vast difference between relevant boundaries and prejudicial dogma.

P.S. Regarding the mitzvot, there are more than 613 mitzvot in the Pentateuch. Maimonides codified those he saw as important. He left out such ones as "Carrying a paddle outside a camp for ablutions" as this was time and space dependent. There is a hierarchy of importance to the Mitzvot. It is accepted that when a life is in danger the laws of shabbat, kashrut etc. can be broken. There are a lot of spiritual lives being broken at the moment. G-d weeps over these unnecessary schisms. Some prioritising needs to take place.

who knows

Ovadia Yosef and other personal God spokespeople are very dangerous. They are leading to destruction of state of Israel and ultimately to their own destruction.

He is trying to create Halachic State in Israel and Israel can not survive this experiment.

It is also clear why his party Shas is such a sesspool of corruption.

Dr. Dave

All Israel have a share in the World to Come, as it is stated: "And your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever. [They are] the branch of My planting, the work of My hands in which to take pride."

Mishna Sanhhedrin

jonadar

der altek kake speaks again without really thinking

Mr. Apikoros

I guess Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is God, as he, like many imposters before him, has decreed who is and who is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

harold

Well, it is about time that Ovadia Yosef is unmasked for what he is: a Sephardic rabbi who has given up the traditions and ways of his forefathers to become Haredi.

No, he understands that one key ingredient is missing when the secular courts get involved is the lack of understanding on just how important a child's and their family upbringing and way of life is. Chassidim live insular and sheltered lives and the secular courts do not understand the concept of chinuch. There are problems but to leave it to the secular courts is not the solution. Maybe some kind of a religious court within the government needs to be formed – a modern day Sanhedrin of sorts.

chaim

i think it is more complicated than that michelle. he is discussing a real halachic problem, not just taking a non-grounded position against his own. the problem is that there is a general unwillingness to deal with the fact that religious courts are, at present, unequipped to deal with the real complexities of modern life. they could be, but they aren't right now. ovadia yosef is wrong less b/c he wants people to deal with this in religious courts per se and more because he is enjoining them to use a court system that cant respond to the real issues at hand and will, therefore, necessarily treat them unjustly.

Michelle

B"H

Well, it is about time that Ovadia Yosef is unmasked for what he is: a Sephardic rabbi who has given up the traditions and ways of his forefathers to become Haredi.

When Sephardic rabbis send their children to Haredi schools, and start dressing in the clothing of 18th century Polish noblemen, we should suspect there is a problem.

It is very sad.

chaim

one may disagree with ovadia yosef, but he is, at least, consistent. see note 42 of this article.

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/litigation_in_secular_courts4.html

if he wishes to maintain this position, however, he must ensure that the halachic courts develop a protocol for dealing with cases like this. there is not, as far as i know, a halachic category for "racism". how would a case like this be tried if not according to the common sense of the judges, which already places them on equal grounds with the secular courts (who, in this article are assumed to operate on the basis of institutionalized common sense)? so could there even be a genuinely halachic process to deal with this?

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