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June 04, 2010

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A. Nuran

So PETA is a bunch of bastards.
The meat industry is a bunch of bastards.
The kosher meat industry is a bunch of bastards.

None of this is news.

former charedi

So PETA is a bunch of bastards.
The meat industry is a bunch of bastards.
The kosher meat industry is a bunch of bastards.

You ever get kicked by a cow? They're a bunch of bastards, too.

I used to hold from this forum, because I got to it during the tropper an kolko fiascos. But from replies to my last postings, I realized that the forum was created to attack the orthodox way of life, and lubavitchers most of all. So I don't take anything posted here as gospel.

Anyway, when it comes to PETA, etc...

If you are orthodox, you believe that people are more important than animals if the animals are treated as per halacha.

If you are like me, then you research compassion and discover that it is linked to certain parts of the brain, and has its evolutionary cause in allowing humans in tribes to work together. Same reason most of the visual processing apparatus is dedicated to recognizing human expression, most auditory processing to understanding speech, etc.

Lone humans can't take down a saber tooth. Humans survived through cooperation and are hard wired with its mechanisms that work well in small groups (before agriculture introduced civilizations).

So the misuse of compassion to attack other humans, especially your own tribe (Jews) shows vast ignorance. Vast.

Hitler was know for his love of dogs and horses, and his disregard of human suffering. All humans have compassion (except some psychopaths). But misplaced human compassion doesn't make someone moral or ethical.

I know, I'll be attacked by pointing to certain phrases and words (but we are now civilized, etc.) Instead of the concept presented. I'm getting used to it.

The key thought here is that compassion is not an ultimate truth, but an evolutionary mechanism. It can be used rationally to help support the human race, such as to protect our planet by protecting life in ecosystems. Or as a tear jerker to feel good about sending a man to prison because he is associated with a group you hate.

Shmarya

Please.

Halakha forbids tzaar baalei hayyim.

What Rubashkin did with animals was unnecessary and gratuitously cruel.

That did not make his meat treife, but it did make him in violation of tzaar baalei hayyim.

You don't like that? You find that too touchy-feely?

Please.

former charedi

I believe more of what the charedi claim than your non fact based diatribes.

http://matzav.com/the-peta-principle

They seem to feel that is does not break any of their laws, and state (who knows whether truthfully) that investigating officials found them in compliance with animal cruelty guidelines.

Touchy-feely? Again, I find no credible reasoning in reply to my comment, in which I showed no opposition to, and indeed a requirement for, compassion. You use phony compassion to excuse hatred of orthodox Jews, just as terrorist organizations now are using phony compassion to weaken Israels' defenses. An old story.

Shmarya

They seem to feel that is does not break any of their laws, and state (who knows whether truthfully) that investigating officials found them in compliance with animal cruelty guidelines.

And you criticize me? Please.

1. The USDA found Agriprocessors to be in VIOLATION of Humane Slaughter Law.

2. The rabbis who publicly objected to what Rubashkin was doing to those animals were threatened by the OU and forced to retract.

I know quite a lot about this in part because I interviewed many of those rabbis and also other rabbis in the kosher supervision business.

3. It is abundantly clear that you do not know the facts or the halakha, and that you're goal is to try to discredit those who do.

PishPosh

As always another side, both eyes seem to have beams in them.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/


7 Things You Didn't Know About PETA


1,
1) According to government documents, PETA employees have killed more than 19,200 dogs, cats, puppies, and kittens since 1998. This behavior continues despite PETA’s moralizing about the “unethical” treatment of animals by farmers, scientists, restaurant owners, circuses, hunters, fishermen, zookeepers, and countless other Americans. PETA puts to death over 90 percent of the animals it accepts from members of the public who expect the group to make a reasonable attempt to find them adoptive homes. PETA holds absolutely no open-adoption shelter hours at its Norfolk, VA headquarters, choosing instead to spend part of its $32 million annual income on a contract with a crematory service to periodically empty hundreds of animal bodies from its large walk-in freezer.

2) PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group’s overall goal as “total animal liberation.” This means the complete abolition of meat, milk, cheese, eggs, honey, zoos, aquariums, circuses, wool, leather, fur, silk, hunting, fishing, and pet ownership. In a 2003 profile of Newkirk in The New Yorker, author Michael Specter wrote that Newkirk has had at least one seeing-eye dog taken away from its blind owner. PETA is also against all medical research that requires the use of animals, including research aimed at curing AIDS and cancer.

3) PETA has given tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and other violent criminals. This includes a 2001 donation of $1,500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF), an FBI-certified “domestic terrorist” group responsible for dozens of firebombs and death threats. During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to Rodney Coronado, an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) serial arsonist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory. In his sentencing memorandum, a federal prosecutor implicated PETA president Ingrid Newkirk in that crime. PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich has also told an animal rights convention that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation,” adding, “Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it.”

4) PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, even waiting outside their schools to intercept them without notifying their parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: “Your Mommy Kills Animals!” PETA brags that its messages reach over 1.2 million minor children, including 30,000 kids between the ages of 6 and 12, all contacted by e-mail without parental supervision. One PETA vice president told the Fox News Channel’s audience: “Our campaigns are always geared towards children, and they always will be.”

5) PETA’s president has said that “even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we would be against it.” And PETA has repeatedly attacked research foundations like the March of Dimes, the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, and the American Cancer Society, solely because they support animal-based research aimed at curing life-threatening diseases and birth defects. And PETA helped to start and manage a quasi-medical front group, the misnamed Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, to attack medical research head-on.

6) PETA has compared Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust to farm animals and Jesus Christ to pigs. PETA’s religious campaigns include a website that claims—despite ample evidence to the contrary—that Jesus Christ was a vegetarian. PETA holds protests at houses of worship, even suing one church that tried to protect its members from Sunday-morning harassment. Its billboards taunt Christians with the message that hogs “died for their sins.” PETA insists, contrary to centuries of rabbinical teaching, that the Jewish ritual of kosher slaughter shouldn’t be allowed. And its infamous “Holocaust on Your Plate” campaign crassly compared the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide to farm animals.

7) PETA frequently looks the other way when its celebrity spokespersons don’t practice what it preaches. As gossip bloggers and Hollywood journalists have noted, Pamela Anderson’s Dodge Viper (auctioned to benefit PETA) had a “luxurious leather interior”; Jenna Jameson was photographed fishing, slurping oysters, and wearing a leather jacket just weeks after launching an anti-leather campaign for PETA; Morrissey got an official “okay” from PETA after eating at a steakhouse; Dita von Teese has written about her love of furs and foie gras; Steve-O built a career out of abusing small animals on film; the officially “anti-fur” Eva Mendes often wears fur anyway; and Charlize Theron’s celebrated October 2007 Vogue cover shoot featured several suede garments. In 2008, “Baby Phat” designer Kimora Lee Simmons became a PETA spokesmodel despite working with fur and leather, after making a $20,000 donation to the animal rights group.

hayyim

fomer haredi- you are an idiot. while it is true that judaism values human over animal life (as any system ultimately must) you are obfuscating the issue. rav kook had said that vegetarianism is misplaced compassion and leads to the polar opposite thereof, but (even if one accepts this) we are not talking about vegetarianism. we are talking about gratuitous cruelty. there is a difference between displacing compassion inappropriately from humans to animals and maintaining that the latter must not be mistreated. since you claim to be a former haredi you must be aware of the numerous laws regulating cruelty avoidance (eg. feeding animals before you eat, unloading an overburdened mule...). this is common sense and peta's position (at least as it states it here) is also common sense. you clearly lack this

yidandahalf

If PETA were a totally evil and evil inspiring group, it would not change one iota of the message that was born of their undercover videos. These videos were untouched and contained no voice overs, no narration, no explanations other than location and date of the videos' being recorded. They were and are true, faithful, and horrendously brutal records of the kosher slaughter methods used by Agriprocessors under the direction of Aaron, Sholem, and Heshy Rubash-in.

jay

Former Haredi, you write as if you were a practicing Haredi. In response to positions you oppose, you bring in references to Hitler and to anti-Semitism.

Here's something for you to consider: one of the earliest warning signs of sociopathic behavior in a child is repeated unnecessary cruelty to animals.

There is such a thing as necessary cruelty-- examples being slaughtering animals for food, using animals in lab tests (when unavoidable). However creating conditions where animals are slaughtered or in labs that are calming and minimally painful to said animals is a sign of appropriate compassion-- hardly misplaced.

former charedi

hayyim,

Thank you for your wonderful, loving post. It is obvious that if you think I'm an idiot, it must be so.

we are talking about gratuitous cruelty.

No we are not. We are talking about alleged gratuitous cruelty, about using a PETA argument to elicit anger so that people will feel good about an orthodox chabadnik getting a long sentence. More than that, we are talking about someone using his blog to do so, sometimes called yellow journalism.

I don't put one bit of trust in any report by PETA.

you must be aware of the numerous laws regulating cruelty avoidance (eg. feeding animals before you eat, unloading an overburdened mule...).

Yes, please read the article I linked to above. It is the POV of the orthodox who defend the plant practices. I didn't write it.

And yes, I did learn this. See my post at http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/05/shechita-banned-in-new-zealand-678.html
where I state : "When I was in yeshiva, I learned that tzaar baalei chaim has nothing to do with the animal. It had to do with the "hardening of a person's heart" to the pain of other living creatures. IOW, the plethora of animal rights laws in Judaism (feeding your animal, not to yoke an ox with a donkey because one cannot keep up with the other, etc.) are there to protect one's feelings of mercy. I still subscribe to that belief."

What I wrote there does not at all contradict what I wrote here, and does not contradict what you learned in yeshiva. So where you use an appearance of mercy for animals that usually die within 2 seconds of being slaughtered in order to deny mercy to a human being, let alone a Jew, you are the one who did not learn the lesson.

peta's position (at least as it states it here) is also common sense. you clearly lack this

Thank you again for another deep evaluation of my intellectual abilities.

What I am arguing is that there is not indisputable proof that what you believe happened actually did, and that we should not condemn a Jew being tried by a DA who tried to get a life sentence in such a situation. Is that clear enough?

I think the charedi article leaves much in doubt about PETA's claims. I also have doubts about how much independent research you have done here. Did you get angry right away when you heard the claims and just hold onto that, or did you do as I did, which is to search all news sources for varying claims and then try to ascertain whether wrongdoing is clearly indicated?

There are two ways to learn sugia in gemara. One is to skim it, decide what you think it means, and then use all your time learning it to prove that you are right. The other way is to keep an open mind and try to figure out what is actually being argued as you go. Which is why you learn rishonim, then achronim, etc., to rationally figure out what is really going on. In learning as in life, I admit that I have no respect for those who do things the first way, who live their lives based on sound bites.

And as I mentioned before, I don't take what I read here as gospel just because Shmarya says it. Claims that he was deeply involved no longer influence me. I deeply respect what he is doing in uncovering charedi wrongdoing, but I don't believe he is either unbiased or scientific in his research. I don't think he has the background for it, but he makes up for it with seemingly unlimited personal energy. But he is sometimes wrong. As are we all.

Shmarya

We are talking about alleged gratuitous cruelty,

The USDA disagrees. It found Agriprocessors violated Humane Slaughter Law.

former charedi

Shmarya,

First of all I want to apologize for the yellow journalism poke. I was out of line. I get riled when people use an argument that because they read something it must be true, like hayyim seemed to do. It reminded me of of one of my moron rebbis when I was younger who called me an idiot because rashi said straight out that PI=3, when I said that we had a closer approximation than that.

I sometimes disagree with your conclusions and reasoning, but I believe you to be honest.

My opinion on the USDA is that there was a ton of publicity and political pressure in this case. Furthermore, fines from government agencies do not always prove wrongdoing, in my experience. It's possible there was as much animal cruelty as in other kosher slaughterhouses or even more, using our present definition of animal cruelty. And maybe there wasn't. I see arguments both ways. I won't use PETA as the arbiter of truth.

former charedi

to yidandahalf,

Yes, but all of those accusations are answered by the charedi post I linked to. If their answers are true, then there was not any unusual cruelty.

yidandhalf

We saw the videos and know them to be true. We know the animals slaughtered by Agriprocessors in the US and Uruguay suffered needlessly. Your posts are long attempts at impressing us with your leap into evolutionary psychology. A field, by the way, I also find fascinating. However, the issue we are considering is far more simple. The videos showed great cruelty that should have and could have been avoided and the man largely responsible for their content sits before us and his and our peers in judgement. We are exhibiting a gut level reaction and to deny it would be futile. Either the religious slaughterers change their methods or the situation will become even more distasteful to your side. Eventually, something like that which is portrayed on Whale Wars will no doubt start up. You people need to face facts.

WoolSilkCotton

Former charedi, instead of just parroting the Rubashkin Party Line about how deceptive and evil PETA is, why not review the paper trail of their correspondences with SMR?

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp

Other documentation and positions taken by PETA on the Agri issue:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/

I realize it is difficult for you to review and consider facts and information from non-charedi sources, but please try your best.

former charedi

to jay:

you write as if you were a practicing Haredi. In response to positions you oppose, you bring in references to Hitler and to anti-Semitism.

I'm a Jew and a human, and I grew up in a family where the older members had tattoos on their arms. I learned in kollel for many years and then by myself for years afterward. I have sustained grievous religious injury from the actions of charedi rabbis, and though reasoning it through was a painful, wrenching experience that took years, I now consider the present charedi movement not only deeply flawed, but also a corruption of Judaism in general. But enough about me...

Here's something for you to consider: one of the earliest warning signs of sociopathic behavior in a child is repeated unnecessary cruelty to animals.

Precisely. A child who lacks compassion can grow to be very dangerous to society. How that compassion is applied later in life depends upon the culture in which that child is raised. Like other aptitudes in man such as language, the culture to which one is exposed is the soil in which that aptitude grows and becomes manifest. That is one reason why you shouldn't expect those raised in palestinian DP camps to ever show compassion to Israeli Jews. Their compassion lies elsewhere.

But though maybe some children who worked in Rubashkin's house of horrors might have been affected that way, we are not talking about children here. We are talking about running a slaughterhouse. Adults running a slaughterhouse don't necessarily turn into murderers or wife beaters.

There is such a thing as necessary cruelty-- examples being slaughtering animals for food, using animals in lab tests (when unavoidable). However creating conditions where animals are slaughtered or in labs that are calming and minimally painful to said animals is a sign of appropriate compassion-- hardly misplaced.

Ah, the key to our disagreement, the word "appropriate". I respect your opinion.

I think that any slaughterhouse is a horrible place, sure to damage my psyche. Turning it into euthanasia center would be nice I guess, but I'm not so sure that having people killing animals all day long and being shielded from its horror would be good for society. As a matter of fact, I suspect that it might be better if people who shop for meat would choose the animal to be slaughtered, like on a farm. It would put people more in touch with what they are responsible for. I would think that many people's views on animal cruelty might go through some kind of metamorphosis.

But as I mentioned in my earlier posts on a previous thread, protecting animals from knowing their fate is something I strongly believe in, because that is where I see most of the torture occurring. I just don't believe a gas chamber is better than a firing squad, so to speak. There is far more to it than momentary pain, IMO. And though I can understand that many people think it a hard thought, animal cruelty is about humans and how they are affected, IMO.

I find that I'm rambling here because I don't understand if you are trying to make a point with this last thought.

OMG

WSC, the links you provided was excellent, I am now convinced without a doubt that PETA, did not partake in any war against Jewish slaughter rituals but the sincere desire to implement humane treatment of animals, again thanks for the link.

David

Posted by: former charedi | June 04, 2010 at 01:14 PM

All humans have compassion (except some psychopaths).

Correction: ALL pyschopaths lack compassion. Indeed, I know of two Charedi rabbis whom I believe to be psychopaths and yet the other Charedim, due to their lack of knowledge of secular matters, including psychology, have no concept of what they are or the consequences of their psycopathy.

former charedi

Okay, last post. It sounds like hate charedi day, and you guys really want to believe I'm one so you can hate me too.

We saw the videos and know them to be true. We know the animals slaughtered by Agriprocessors in the US and Uruguay suffered needlessly.

That other forum claimed it was a minor percentage. Even so, what you say may be true. I just don't know. But I DO know that our compassion should be applied to humans before animals. You guys just hate this fucker Rubashkin.

Your posts are long attempts at impressing us with your leap into evolutionary psychology. A field, by the way, I also find fascinating. However, the issue we are considering is far more simple.

Yes, but it was kinda for the purpose of examining what animal cruelty really is. But I agree, that is a much deeper subject than can be covered here.

The videos showed great cruelty that should have and could have been avoided and the man largely responsible for their content sits before us and his and our peers in judgement.

Agreed. But I think we should judge him on what he did to people, such as the possible emotional damage to minors. I'm not one who believes that a person should, for example, go to prison for two years for throwing his dog off a roof (unless he did it in front of children and damaged them emotionally in the process). I think the "dogs are people too" sentiment is misplaced, and I apply it to any animal. See, I confess.

We are exhibiting a gut level reaction and to deny it would be futile.

Gut level reactions lead to murder, war, and to losing wars for that matter. Emotions drive all decisions, of course. But highlighting the horror of an animal's heartless slaughter can be a mechanism that allows us to forget sympathy for humans, is all I'm saying.

Either the religious slaughterers change their methods or the situation will become even more distasteful to your side.

My side? Whatever. If you want me to play charedi, how about this? Are you aware that many non kosher chicken factories boil the birds to remove their feathers before slaughter? I don't know if they still do it, but some used to use the boiling to kill the birds as well, in order to save a step. I disagree that ritual slaughter (any religion) is inherently crueler than other types of slaughter.

Eventually, something like that which is portrayed on Whale Wars will no doubt start up.

Yeah, they have to make money, too.

You people need to face facts.

Whenever I hear the term "you people" I hear bigotry.

Shmarya

My opinion on the USDA is that there was a ton of publicity and political pressure in this case. Furthermore, fines from government agencies do not always prove wrongdoing, in my experience. It's possible there was as much animal cruelty as in other kosher slaughterhouses or even more, using our present definition of animal cruelty. And maybe there wasn't. I see arguments both ways. I won't use PETA as the arbiter of truth.

The USDA did not release its report until Freedom Of Information Requests were filed, so that blows your theory of the USDA reacting to public pressure.

Past that, many leading large animal biologists and other experts publicly said that Agriprocessors was the most cruel commercial slaughter they had ever seen.

If you want to debate, debate based on actual facts – not on conjecture and fantasy.

WoolSilkCotton

OMG, you're welcome. A Gutten Shabbos.

Nathan

Ironically PETA has set the record for killing animals. They run animal shelters and only find homes for 1 in 300 animals. I've heard because it's cheaper for them to kill them and put them in a freezer than to find them homes.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

Shmarya

Please.

The site you link to is run by a man who specializes in smear campaigns. He's been exposed dozens of times. He makes his money by being hired by large food companies to smear their critics.

Nathan

I thought this was a legitimate website, but after I looked into it more, I found out they also lobbied for tobacco companies and fast food.

HarediMorality

This defense of painful shechita should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the morality of these people.

Remember they also think its fine to perform an oral bris. They get angry if you call an oral bris what it actually is in English which is "slicing off part of an infants dick while the infant has no painkiller and then having an adult male apply his mouth to the now mutilated organ.

It doesn't have that ring of "tradition" when described in clear English.

Shlomo

Rabbis in Israel - the Rabbanut have attempted to remove the Kashrut authority of hotels that employed a belly dancer.
If Peta is correct isn't the clear contravention of Tsar Baal Hachaim which is M'Deraisa much worse than seeing a women's belly

harold

For PETA, tza’ar ba’alei chayim is our primary focus.

Throw a couple of hebrew words and all is fine. Well I for one am not fooled by this "heimishe" ruse.

Face it; the killing of an animal is not a thing of beauty I would not like to be at a slaughterhouse no matter how they perform the killing. On top of it, the killing is so one can eat the poor thing. They are against the killing of animals, face it, and don’t give me this tza’ar ba’alei chayim crock. If I didn’t like the taste of meat I would be appalled by any killing too.

PETA is an enemy of the frum people and must be viewed and treated as such. We are an easy target and have been in the gun sights of many people for thousands of years. Just look at what just happened in New Zealand another “compassionate” country that outlaws sechita but condones hunting – such hypocrisy. Thank g-d we have Israel, the one place that the laws and customs of the Jewish people are not ridiculed and are accommodated.

Bill

"I used to hold from this forum" - "former" haredi

If the phrase seems alian, bizarre and unidiomatic it is because "former haredi" transliterates his thoughts from Yiddish to English as he writes.

"I used to hold from" - in Yiddish would be "ich fleg halten foon..." etc.

Anyone who knows anything about the pathetic language skills of yeshiva students, can tell you that the above is a prime linguistic sample of "haredi talk."

Heredi, you are a long way away from become a "former" haredi, but keep working at it, and you might get there one bright day.

state of disgust

"PETA is an enemy of the frum people and must be viewed and treated as such."

Actually Harold, you are the enemy of the Jewish People. Your narrow minded adherence to fiction, your refusal to believe in what you see with your own eyes, condemns the frum community to a life of deception and lies. Thus you denigrate Judaism and Jewish values. You exhibit and are the epitome of the "galut" mentality, always afraid that the non-Jews are out to get you. To you Judaism is a struggle against others and not a thing of beauty.
I feel sorry for you.

Robert Wisler

Bravo State-Of-Disgust!!!

harold

always afraid that the non-Jews are out to get you.

All that I have to do is follow the news and see how Israel is treated by the rest of the world. The flotilla incident, the comments made by Helen Thomas, so yes, I am afraid that the non-Jews are out to get me.

Shmarya

Please.

Israel has terrible PR. It was wholly unprepared after the flotilla incident.

That incompetence is the cause for what you incorrectly perceive as antisemitism.

harold

Please.

Israel has terrible PR. It was wholly unprepared after the flotilla incident.

That incompetence is the cause for what you incorrectly perceive as antisemitism


You are correct that there was plenty of incompetence in the handling of the flotilla incident. My fear is that it will have anti-Semitic overtones.

Face it, we are Jews and Israel is the Jewish state. Our destinies are intertwined.

We can't all be like "SJ" who can simply walk away.

Blink

. I'm not one who believes that a person should, for example, go to prison for two years for throwing his dog off a roof

Neither am I.

I believe that such a person should go to prison for at least 10 years.

WoolSilkCotton

++state of disgust | June 05, 2010 at 10:18 PM++

SOD, kudos.

Harold, pathos.

The flotilla incident will blow over like so many other Israeli "incidents with anti-Semitic overtones". Get over your paranoia, fear and anger at the whole world; it goes along with your delusions of orthodox grandeur. Face facts- you're not that important. Nobody in the world pays that much attention to you.

ABe

Please.

Israel has terrible PR. It was wholly unprepared after the flotilla incident.

That incompetence is the cause for what you incorrectly perceive as antisemitism.

Shmarya, so now you are anti-Israel as well?

Shmarya

Shmarya, so now you are anti-Israel as well?

So according to you, any criticism of Israel – even a simple criticism of Israel's PR that is echoed by tens of thousands of Israelis if not more – makes me anti-Israel?

Idiot.

Yechiel

Many attempts were made by various self haters to change the face of Judaism; ALL HAVE FAILED!
Yes, Orthodoxy (nowadays) is not perfect. However, your choice is definitely not the solution. Of course it is much more convenient to drop the religion and shift the guilt on everyone but yourself.
In my humble opinion the proper approach should be to improve your ways and strive to be perfect yourself. By doing so you would have sanctified G-d's name
Running away is cowardly!
Justifying your way of life by exposing Haredi wrongdoing is the mentality of a second grader not that of a mature adult.

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