Synagogue Shutters Soldiers' Counseling Center Due To "Immodesty"

Volunteer says rabbis may have been upset by presence of female soldiers in “immodest dress” - pant uniforms as opposed to skirts.

Synagogue shuts counseling center due to ‘immodesty’

Volunteer says rabbis may have been upset by presence of female soldiers in “immodest dress” - pant uniforms as opposed to skirts.

BEN HARTMAN • Jerusalem Post

A counseling center for lone soldiers at a Jerusalem synagogue was closed recently by the synagogue’s board of directors because it was deemed “immodest,” The Jerusalem Post has learned.

A volunteer from the Michael Levin Memorial Center for Lone Soldiers said Sunday that about two months ago the group was given permission by Jerusalem’s Yeshurun synagogue to set up an office and social club in the basement of the building where lone soldiers could go for counseling, to do their laundry or just to relax. However, volunteer Joshua Flaster said that a week and a half ago the synagogue’s board had unanimously voted to shut down the office.

Flaster said he got the impression that the presence of female soldiers in “immodest dress” (pant uniforms as opposed to skirts), had upset the rabbis who study at the synagogue.

“Obviously we weren’t holding or planning on holding parties there – but we did want male and female soldiers to be able to sit and watch TV or grab a bite to eat on their way home,” Flaster said.

Yissachar Pollack, executive director of a body that oversees the operations of the synagogue, confirmed that modesty was the issue, and said the synagogue had not agreed to allow the office to be used as a place for male and female soldiers to fraternize.

“There was a request made for an office at the synagogue to be used for lone soldiers to come and receive help. We thought this was a great idea and we immediately agreed,” said Pollack.

“What we can’t allow, what no synagogue can allow, is for a holy place to include a social club. This is absolutely an issue of modesty,” he added.

[Hat Tip: CS.]

Comments

[harold]

That was silly, why didn't they simply state the required dress code. People would understand since it was being held in a synagogue.

[who knows]

"Modesty" comes before derech eretz every single time with this guys.

[who knows]

I also would like to know why is a knee length skirt is considered more modest then military pants?

[vbwannab]

You want to make female soldiers switch out of their uniform every time they want to talk to friends/receive help in a synagogue?

[Michael Makovi]

And how exactly is this going to help soldiers become religious and/or endear them to Judaism? You'd think the rabbis would at least have missionary zeal and want to present themselves in the best light for the sake of their own missionary success!

[eyesay]

I do not believe the rabbis are sincere. Rabbi Pollack said “What we can’t allow, what no synagogue can allow, is for a holy place to include a social club. This is absolutely an issue of modesty.” He may or may not realize it, but he has contradicted himself right there. For him, the issue is modesty, meaning that women should not wear pants. (Never mind that pants are more modest for a female soldier because they hide and protect all parts her body below her waist better than any skirt or dress.)

Knowing that the issue is really modesty, the issue of the holy place including a social club is a red herring. Rabbi Pollack would have no problem having a chapel in an airport so that travelers could daven while waiting for their flights. If it's OK to have a chapel in an airport, it is equally OK to have a place in the basement of a synagogue for soldiers ensuring the security of all Israelis to have a place to meet. The real problem for Rabbi Pollack and the others is that ultimately they don't believe that men and women not related by blood or marriage should ever meet socially. They are entitled to this view, but guess what: It is not a mitzvah and it is not supported by Jewish sacred texts. Read the book of Ruth, for example.

[Radical Feminist]

these "Holy" men sure do spend a lot of time thinking about women's bodies, and more time then most L.A designers about clothing. Kinda makes ya wonder...

[effie]

"I also would like to know why is a knee length skirt is considered more modest then military pants? Posted by: who knows"

Because they're nuts.

[Dave]

Michael, I agree with you 100%. Over the years I've had "run-ins" with these "frummer-than-you" types. Sadly it seems to be universal, whether Ashkenazi or Sefardi "frummer-than-thou" types (even among some members of my (extended) Sefardi family)
Your reasoning is excellent. I finally figured out why they behave the way they do in these instances- they're scared of avon/ awon- it's assur/ ossur, bla bla !
They are so afraid of transgressing a commandment etc. (even if it is truly a Torah commandment) that they just get into panic mode. Their attitude is "I want to shut down this problem right now, I can't explain to this apikoros why I think they're wrong, I don't want to get infected by them, so I am just going to resign/ close the room/ forbid the activity. I don't give a s---t what the other person thinks of me, and what impresion I'm giving them about Judaism and frumkeit, I just want to shut down the situation".

[moshe]

My sense from reading the article and knowing the insititution is that the pants issue was made up by the journalist. All the shul rep said was that it was a question od "modesty". I suspect that this really refers to one of two things.

1)female soldiers coming in out of uniform- dressed truly immodestly.
or
2)"Modesty" is used here as a euphemism

[who knows]

The lone soldiers are typically idealistic youth from abroad who came to Israel out of sense of their Jewish duty.

A great way to disillusion them by providing "welcome" like this.

Thank you Rabbis for educating our youth about life.

[A yid]

I c nobody notices the forest from the trees. The org asks to use d shul for counselling, they agreed and then find themselves with a social club (including necking boys n girls, loud music, smoke etc - although no 'official' parties) they, correctly and unanimously say this is not the place, as it's immodest. Totally reasonable, as it seems they had different understandings of the agreement

[yudel]

It is called the Lonely Soldier Program...e Chayal Boded.

Kids who come to Israel and have literally no family there and are in the army.

You betcha they closed it because a boy might talk to a girl.

Yiddishkeit does not teach about caring for others in need. You want warmth go to the Christian Counseling and Youth Centers.

Judaism is not about friendship or families. It is first and foremost about appearances.

[HaNavon]

Don't forget, the Chazon Ish said that "if we would have the power to kill a woman for wearing pants, we should"

[Yochanan Lavie]

Whatever happened to JB Soloveitchik's ruling that woman-tailored pants are neither immodest, nor beged ish?

[Bill]

Haredim riot in Bnai Brak. 2 injured

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3894288,00.html

[who knows]

Hanavon, I don't believe Chazon Ish could have said this. It sounds like mad mullah talking. What is the source of you Chazon Ish saying?

[Hometown Postville]

Radical Feminist: these "Holy" men sure do spend a lot of time thinking about women's bodies, and more time then most L.A designers about clothing. Kinda makes ya wonder...

Dave: Their attitude is "I want to shut down this problem right now, I can't explain to this apikoros why I think they're wrong, I don't want to get infected by them...

Both good analogies. Why can't they have such a fear of pedophilia? make public bans and "rules" about it? They are so bent on the female body "honoring God" and showing respect but it seems to be all right to disrespect the commandments of stealing, idolizing(rules), coveting, and loving their neighbor as themselves. Are there any offshoots of this sect that act sensible?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Whatever happened to JB Soloveitchik's ruling that woman-tailored pants are neither immodest, nor beged ish?

Have you seen pics of female Israeli soldiers in their pants? Holy Moses. (Not that I'm admitting I've seen the various "hottest women in the IDF" collections all over the Internet). They are often so tight, they would struggle to fit a credit card into their pockets. I'm hardly a charedi sympathizer, but that's not what Soloveitchik had in mind for pants.

[Synagogue Furniture]

As wonderful as having a Kollel in the Churva may be, was it restored with public funds or only with private monies?

The Israeli taxpaying public would justifiably take issue with these restrictions placed upon them.