Rubashkin Lawyer Urges State Investigator: Guess The Ages

For nearly 45 minutes Thursday, Sholom Rubashkin's defense attorney showed picture after picture of fresh-faced Latino workers to a state criminal investigator and asked him to guess their ages.

Rubashkin lawyer urges: Guess the ages

By JENS MANUEL KROGSTAD • Des Moines Register

Waterloo, Ia. — For nearly 45 minutes Thursday, Sholom Rubashkin's defense attorney showed picture after picture of fresh-faced Latino workers to a state criminal investigator and asked him to guess their ages.

Jon Turbett, an Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation agent assigned to the case, often estimated they were 17 or 18. He said he couldn't be certain relying on only one photograph.

"These are hard to pick out, aren't they?" defense attorney Mark Weinhardt said.

All the photos were of adult workers taken the day of a May 12, 2008, immigration raid on Agriprocessors Inc., a slaughterhouse in Postville, Weinhardt said.

Weinhardt suggested Rubashkin is on trial for his inability to tell the ages of underage workers often masked by protective frocks and hard hats. The former plant executive faces 83 misdemeanor child-labor charges.

Turbett responded that Rubashkin faces prosecution for knowingly allowing minors to work at the plant, and said he believes "that's the truth."

Witnesses ranging from a former Agriprocessors security guard to a mother who tried to get her 17-year-old son a job at the plant took the stand Thursday. They said Rubashkin refused to hire minors, and they never saw children working at the plant.

Rubashkin's defense team for a second day tried to discredit the only witness who has said Rubashkin knew minors worked at the slaughterhouse.

Former plant supervisor Matthew Derrick told the jury on the trial's first day that he warned Rubashkin about minors at the plant sometime in 2006 and 2007. In response, Rubashkin just smiled and said nothing, Derrick testified.

Derrick said he cared deeply for his workers, and had tried to warn other managers about underage workers at the plant. He told the jury at least half of his employees were minors.

Rabbi Tzvi Bass, who supervised the slaughter of animals, painted a different picture of the man.

Derrick never talked to him about children at the kosher slaughterhouse or unsafe working conditions, Bass said.

He also said he didn't see any workers who appeared to be under 18 in Derrick's department.

Bass told the jury he once heard Derrick disparage Guatemalans working under him. Derrick said they needed to pack "these Mexicanos like sardines and send them back to Mexico," Bass said.

When Bass pointed out they were Guatemalans, Derrick waved his hand dismissively, he said.

The defense began the day by asking the judge to allow the jury to hear evidence that Derrick first revealed the conversation he said he had with Rubashkin on the witness stand.

"If he never revealed it (to the state), it would certainly undermine the credibility of the statement," Weinhardt said.

Black Hawk County District Associate Judge Nathan Callahan denied the request. But he that said he doubted Derrick's story and that his statement seemed to catch state prosecutors by surprise.

"I don't find his statement in regards to his conversation with Sholom Rubashkin all that credible. It's a tough thing for the defense to deal with," he said.

The defense later asked Turbett, the state criminal investigator, to review the notes from his first interview with Derrick.

Derrick never mentioned the conversation with Rubashkin, even though he was a suspect in the child labor case, Turbett testified.

Testimony will resume on Tuesday. The courthouse is closed today because courthouse workers are on furlough.

The defense has said that it expects to call its final witness on Wednesday morning.

Comments

[Robert Wisler]

A good defense tactic if I must say so myself!

[chabadnik attorney]

If the jury does find there is reasonable doubt here, then something is wrong here. I'm not even sure that there is a preponderance of the evidence which would be a civil standard of liability. In a criminal case the State has a burden of proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt as we all most likely already know.

Seems like in a criminal case where the defense has a lot of latitude, that the evidence about Derrik's sudden recollection should come in. I'm no expert by any means but that testimony is crucial to the prosecution's case and to not allow evidence of its unreliability could be reversible error. Any criminal trial or appellate attorneys out there have a take on that issue.

[chabadnik attorney]

Correction: If the jury does not find there is reasonable doubt here, then something is wrong.

[chabadnik attorney]

Whatever you think about Rubashkin the State has a high burden of proof.

[sandra]

the town of postville caught its wizard .
and they have no intention to let him go . he will continue to hurt any chance he gets .

[sandra]

you don't guess the age on a face BUT YOU CAN TELL IF SOMEONE IS 10, 12, 13 , 14, 15 , 16 . you can also tell by the way the behave .

anyway , based on the testimony of the managers and workers , rubashin knew they were underaged . rubashkin was clearly told they were . and he did not do anything .

what kind of defense is that ? showing pics of overtired , exhausted kids who looked older than they are , BC THEY WERE OVERWORKED .

it is well known that ppl who are overworked look older . common sense .
i hope the jury will figure out something so simple to understand logically .

[sandra]

'slaughter house ' . i want to slaughter rubashkin

[Bill]

"to not allow evidence of its unreliability could be a reversible error" - Chabadnic

Chabadnic,

Exactly what disallowed evidence does the defense have in connection with the unreliability of Derrick's testimony?

[Dr. Moe]

Bill,

Derrick had an incentive to lie about The "dirty Jew rubashkin" that is how the church called him, cause he was fired from agri cause he was lazy, drunk and was hitting on girls instead of doing his job.

So Derrick had an incentive to get back at the dirty Jew rubashkin.

[Dr. Moe]

Also Derrick hated the guatmalans he wanted to ship them back to Mexico nit guatmala like sardines. Yet the rabbi corrected Derrick and told him they were from guatmala not from Mexico.

[Bill]

Moe,

I didn't ask what "incentive" Derrick might have had to lie.

My question is and was what -evidence- pertaining to Derrick's credibility was disallowed.

If you comprehend the question, I would appreciate an answer.

Thanks!

[Bill]

You will have answered my question it was in the form of:

"On day such and such the defense wanted to present witness so and so who was prepare to testify x,y,z - but the judge disallowed it," etc.

[Dr Moe]

Bill,

Derrick has no credibility he lied under oath when Derrick said he cared for those minors, but a witness under oath said he did not care for those Minors cause Derrick said he wanted to ship them back to mexico LIKE SARDINES, so we have proof Derick is a Liar, also no one heard of Derrick Testimony not USDA who were ALL DAY and parts of the night at the plant, Not OSHA, Not the Police and not any Legal Agency till the day he was on the witness stand.

[Bill]

Moe,

Let's assume Derrick is a liar. Now, what evidence to that effect was disallowed by the judge - as chabadnic asserted above?

[Dr Moe]

Bill,

Ok so the Question now is Jury to belive Sholom Rubashkin who claims Derick never told him or we Believe Derrick who has a record of lying under oath..

[Bill]

That's not the question.

Chabadnic said the judge excluded certain evidence, so I'm asking which
evidence was excluded.

[IATroutfisher]

Got news for you Moe....the Meat Messiah's toast. NE Iowa is sick of Rubashkin shenanigans.

[sandra]

those pics must have been taken recently .
therefore the kids are older .

where do these pics come from , anyway ?
i didn't know they took pics of kids AT THAT TIME , years ago . those kids left the plant years ago . it is hard to believe . employers usually do not take pics of their employees , especially in this case where they were employing minors
and did not want to have any trace or records of the kids .

45 minutes ! how many pics did they take ?
hundreds ? it does not make sense .

unless rubashkin lawyers were around town shooting random pics of latinos NOT RELATED TO THE PLANT .

the jury must think twice and not believe rubashkin's attorneys . bc here there is more than reasonable doubt

[Dr Moe]

IATroutfisher,

Who is the meat Messiah?

[zak]

“Your hero hired the cheapest crappiest people he could find to fill all the jobs at Agri”

“Frum Jews do not deserve a fair trial in the USA. They have no respect for American Laws, and they have no respect for Americans”

Wow, finally the true colors and feelings of the very “compassionate” individuals on this website constantly bashing Rbashkin and all frum Jews out of “great, genuine concern” for the unfortunate Mexicans and Guatemalans.

It seems like you are a bunch of depraved racists and anti-Semites (from Jewish extract).

[harold]

A good defense tactic if I must say so myself!

The old "If the glove doesn't fit then you must acquit" I like that defense too.

I am so bad a telling ages. I hate it when someone asks of me to look at someone and tell their age. That is why one must rely on documentation or ids. You can't fault someone if they cannot tell a fraudulent id from a valid one if its quality is decent.

[zak]

“Your hero hired the cheapest crappiest people he could find to fill all the jobs at Agri”

“Frum Jews do not deserve a fair trial in the USA. They have no respect for American Laws, and they have no respect for Americans”

Wow, finally the true colors and feelings of the very “compassionate” individuals on this website constantly bashing Rbashkin and all frum Jews out of “great, genuine concern” for the unfortunate Mexicans and Guatemalans.

It seems like you are a bunch of depraved racists and anti-Semites (from Jewish extract).

[zak]

Thomas Walsh and Jewish Council of Urban affairs working with S. Bridget's Church

“We could hear what Walsh was saying. He was coaching them, telling them about the rights, what they could do to get legal state. He said they had to say they were being abused by Mr. Rubashkin. told them he was a filthy Jew who became rich at their expense. telling them they could get deported.”

10:35: MB: “what was his [Derrick ] attitude about his Hispanic employees?

ZVI BASS: “Once Derrick told me that wanted to pack all them and send them back to Mexico, pack them like sardines. ... I told him most of them were from Guatemala.”

All you people talking all this time about the grave treatment of the illegal workers at Agri, apparently, many of these forces wore driven by hate of FRUM JEWS – and just used Rubashkin as a pawn in their vicious game.

The same goes to some of the regular posters on this blog. Your true colors are finally coming to the surface.

[zak]

Sandra

I believe those photographs were taken by the US government at the time of the raid. The defense attorney was using photographs from the government’s files…

[Sammy Finkelman]

I think the pictures come from the day of the raid.

[sandra]

ok. they must have taken hundreds , bc they kept showing them for 45 minutes .
how many kids were working that day, at the time of the raid ? dozens .

[Dr Moe]

Sandra,

Also "The Dirty Jew (as per the church)" Rubashkin knew BEFORE the raid that ICE was going to Raid the plant and ICE had Notified Rubashkin that there were minors at the plant , but "The dirty Jew (as per the church)"Rubashkin requested for names of the Minors and ICE would not give to Agri, this is just one of thousands of proofs that the "the Dirty Jew (As per the Chuch)"Rubashkin did not want Minors working at the plant.

[harold]

“Frum Jews do not deserve a fair trial in the USA. They have no respect for American Laws, and they have no respect for Americans”

It seems like you are a bunch of depraved racists and anti-Semites (from Jewish extract).

Anytime someone resorts to the use of "they" in a condescending manner when referring to a group of hundreds of thousands of people you are looking at a bona-fide racist. All logic flies out the window and any form of intelligent discourse is futile. There is something basal wrong with that individual, a hatred from the “id”. Best to let them stew in their fantasy and hope that they are not in a position of power.

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

If you look at the WCF Courier's reporting of the trial, Jeff Reinitz's first post about the photos was at 1:36 PM and the last post was at 2:14 PM. From the timing of the posts, it looks like one photo was presented per minute.

[Shmarya]

Rubashkin knew BEFORE the raid that ICE was going to Raid the plant and ICE had Notified Rubashkin that there were minors at the plant , but "The dirty Jew (as per the church)"Rubashkin requested for names of the Minors and ICE would not give to Agri, this is just one of thousands of proofs that the "the Dirty Jew (As per the Chuch)"Rubashkin did not want Minors working at the plant.

Idiot.

You never learn.

1. Rubashkin offered to cooperate with ICE shortly before the raid. But as he did that he was actively engaged in a criminal conspiracy to cover up his previous crimes, and he also committed new crimes.

Past that, Rubashkin had refused to cooperate with the government before that.

You can't simply commit crimes for years, refuse to cooperate with the government or cease your criminal activity, and then expect leniency just before your arrest.

2. It was the State of Iowa, not ICE, that would not turn over those names. They would not do so because, as I noted above, Rubashkin stonewalled them for months and only offered to cooperate shortly before the raid.

You don't know the facts, you don't know the law, you don't care about the facts and you don't care about the law.

All you care about, Moe, is your friend and fellow Chabadnik Rubashkin.

You should be ashamed. But you don't have the moral backbone or the brains for it.

[Dr Moe]

Shmarya,

One sees how you try to twist the facts, Rubashkin was always cooperating with ICE, State of IA and the Government he is not that stupid as per proof, from witnesses and documentation.

[Shmarya]

No, Moe.

The evidence – even as submitted by Rubashkin's attorneys – show exactly what I say is true.

It is also the position of the US Attorney and, I believe, the Iowa's Department of Labor.

But you, Moe, just don't care. The truth means nothing to you or your friends or your community. God should find a way to show you how much he hates your lies.

[larry]

Did anyone notice that lately, in almost every reply to a comment to this blog that is not to his liking, Shmarya starts off his comment by: Idiot.

Shabbat Shalom!

[chabadnik attorney]

Bill, I was referring to the excerpt from the article that I am pasting below this comment. The judge himself admits Derrick's testimony was unreliable but he won't allow the defense to fully attack his credibility. Here is the excerpt: (Good Shabboss)

The defense began the day by asking the judge to allow the jury to hear evidence that Derrick first revealed the conversation he said he had with Rubashkin on the witness stand.

"If he never revealed it (to the state), it would certainly undermine the credibility of the statement," Weinhardt said.

Black Hawk County District Associate Judge Nathan Callahan denied the request. But he that said he doubted Derrick's story and that his statement seemed to catch state prosecutors by surprise.

"I don't find his statement in regards to his conversation with Sholom Rubashkin all that credible. It's a tough thing for the defense to deal with," he said.

[harold]

make that beyond

[Bill]

Thank you, Chabadnick!

[Bill]

Chabadnic,

it's not at all clear to me what evidence defense wanted to present in this regard.

for example, if they wanted to put the prosecutor on the stand - that could be a problem.

perhaps they just wanted to add a new witness to their list.

Not clear to me what was turned down, and therefore what the basis for an appeal be.

Your point is well taken though.

Best

[Shmarya]

What the judge probably means is the defense dealt with that issue during its cross.

If I remember correctly, the defense asked Derrik if he told any ICE agents or Dept of Labor investigators about his conversation with Rubashkin and Derrik said no.

Past that, there is nothing much that can be done. It's Derrik's word against Rubashkin's, and it's up to the jury to decide who is more credible.

No amount of witnesses testifying that Derrik did not tell them – which Derrik himself admitted on the stand – changes that, and none of those witnesses can testify to what, if anything, Derrik told Rubashkin. So their testimony is moot.

[Hometown Postville]

Come on,this is so much BS. He knew who who he could hire for less than minimum wage. Who was going to rat on him?

[effie]

Shmarya beat me to it. Plus, I don't remember the defense going crazy objecting to the testimony, i.e., that it was a surprise to them. It could be that the DA interviewed Derrick, was supplied this statement and turned it over to the defense.

[Bill]

"it's Derrick's word against Rubashkin's" - Shmarya

Not so, becuase Rubashkin hasn't given his word in this!

[Desperado]

A very bad defense tactic. The state investigator is not on trial, Rubashkin is.

[chabadnik attorney]

Thanks Bill. Shavuah Tov.

[Jerome Soller]

Well, as a casual outside observer, there seems to be at least a reasonable doubt so far on this case as to whether Sholom Rubashkin personally knew about this. I did not personally believe so on the other Rubashkin trial, given the preponderance of evidence. However, this one seems like it may turn out to be a witch hunt for the State of Iowa to save face to their constituents.

[OMG]

Jerome, I need to call you out, anybody who would post on this or other sites relating to the Rubashkin trial, automatically has bias, at least I will admit that I am bias to the truth they way I really see it, but you and MOE and company who keep on saying they are not bias, are just deceitful to themselves, because we all know the truth, that no matter what you will find a reason to acquit SMR, that same way the juries in the criminal OJ case, and Nelson in state court, found them not guilty.

[ber]

OMG,

i proudly state that i am a Rubashkin supporter, although i have never personally met Sholom Rubashkin, or benefited from his charity.

He is a fellow Yid, and as such there is the command in the Torah "veohavto leraiacho komoicho". (this is obviously something that you don't do)

there is also a command in the Torah "lo saamoid al dam raiecho".

those who attack him and wish him ill, are not legitimately jewish, regardless of what they claim. (including you)

[Bill]

"This one seems like it may turn out to be a witch hunt for the state of Iowa to save face to their constituents" - Jerome

Jerome,

First, this is a jury trial. The jury will do what it wants to do. The jury does not represent the State of Iowa. It is a jury of Rubashkin's peers. Rubashkin my not view his world in this way, but the law does.

Second, the State of Iowa has no "constiuents." It has citizens.

[sage]

What happens in this trial will be interesting to comprehend.

But the decisive day is June 22nd, when SMR takes the "Perp Walk into Prison".

May G-d have mercy on his soul.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Ber, what about murdering a police officer? I guess that's ok with you, since the murderer was one of your kind.

Chabad publications made it abundantly clear that their goal with Grossman was to have him freed, because he had done 'tshuvah'. They weren't just looking for 'life in prison'; they wanted his death sentence commuted, then they would work to have him freed because now he was a frummer yid.

Please explain if you agree that murdering a police officer is ok, as long as you're a frummer yid. I assume your version of the Torah says that murder is ok if the victim isn't Jewish.

[sage]

Hi WSC,

Superb rejoinder !!!!

Yet another compelling reason Chabad = Cheresy.

[sarah]

WoolSilkCotton

You are a demagogue and flat out lier. I challenge you to show me where CHABAD or any responsible frum organization called for what you allege – freeing Grossman o”h. they were requesting to comunte the DEATH sentence and let him searve in jail.

You are a [jewish?] hat-filled bigot and anti-semite. Maya hashem have rachmonus on you, effie, sage, shmarya and the other sorry, lost souls on this blog.

Do some research over here to see what individuals in the frum community were trying to accomplish… (and by the way, most murderers – even pre-meditated – eventually get out of prison..

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/save-martin-grossman

www.savemartingrossman.com/

[chabadnik attorney]

I'm against the death penalty, period.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sarah, you are a filthy liar. I will not waste my Memorial Day quoting you from chabad.com or crownheights.info, because even if I do supply you with the quotes, you will deny them or just ignore them, since facts never seem to get in your way. The references are listed below.

At no point is it mentioned that he deserved life in prison. Oh no no no, he must be freed because he has done 'tshuvah', and besides, he is a Jew and the police officer wasn't, and she was a woman, so you know, she isn't even a human in the eyes of the holy rabbis seen in the first reference shown below.

BTW, do you know what Memorial Day is? How do you celebrate? Oh yeah, I know, you don't. It means nothing to you.

The fact that you would add o"h to filthy murderer scum Grossman's name tells me all I need to know about you. How about Lemrick Nelson? You went nuts wanting the death penalty for him, right? (And I too wanted the death penalty for POS Nelson.) What an ugly excuse for a human being you are, Sarah.

God hates you. That is a fact. I am sure you are one of the scum who called the elderly mother of the murdered police officer and called her a nazi. You are indeed a POS. God truly hates you, Sarah. Consider, deep in your heart, that He truly, truly hates you, because you have no sense of decency.

Go ahead and worship your beloved murderer Grossman. Name your children after him. Name your shul after him. Go pray at his grave. Thank God he is in a grave, and be assured, he is burning in hell, where he belongs.

Chabadnik Attorney, I can respect being against the death penalty, as long as it is consistent. To be against the death penalty only when the murderer is Jewish? That's where people like Sarah are an abomination.

Look at the hysterical displays for the filthy murderer:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=24507

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=24465

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=24491

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=24491

http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=17534

http://www.chabadinfo.com/index.php?url=article_en&id=17507

O"H for the subhuman POS Grossman? Fuck him and his rotting corpse, and you can jump in the grave and join him if you so desire, Sarah.

[sam]

MOST murderers get out of jail at around 25 years. I don’t believe Lubavitcher Chassidim and countless other religious Jews around the world were asking for something that is not regular for convicted murderers.

They didn’t say that since he did Teshuva he should get out scot-free!!! He served 25 years in jail!!! They were arguing that the circumstances surrounding his case warranted the DEATHE PENALTY! Who said he was innocent of the crime he committed??? They were arguing that he was unhealthy and a drug-addict at the time.

[Chaim]

WoolSilkCotton

As of late, your rage and blind hate for anything Frum is shining bright…

In the past you successfully portrayed yourself as a decent, rational individual… now it was hard to maintain this show for this long… at long last you’re a plain old blind hatter of anything [Jewish] religious.

You will excuse ANYONE AND EVERYONE as long as they are not Frum Jews (or associated with them)…

[Dr Moe]

Wools,

If Grossman would have gone to Yeshiva and not be a secular Jew like you, he would not have NOT killed the poor Police Officer in the first place, as the ratio of Jewish Killer and gangsters is way high in the Secular Jewish world such as your self.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++MOST murderers get out of jail at around 25 years++

And you base this ignorant statement on what?

++He served 25 years in jail!!!++

So now he should be released, right?

++You will excuse ANYONE AND EVERYONE as long as they are not Frum Jews++

Please explain this sentence. It makes no sense.

And regarding your hero Grossman, plenty of Lubavitchers and other religious Jews strongly disagreed with the Chabad position of action on behalf of the murderer.

Years of effort by Chabad, under the Rebbe's leadership, spent building bridges with government and law enforcement, as well as engendering good will with the general public, were ruined with this idiotic stunt to try and manipulate the legal system. If failed miserably for Chabad, as will the ongoing pathetic display of acrobatics on behalf of your current hero Rubashkin.

[Dr Moe]

Wools,

you have failed to show on any Chabad or Jew website where any one was advocating to free Martin Grossman who killed and murdertd while he was a secular Jew like yourself.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dr. Moe, that does not change the facts that occurred. You cannot turn the clock back to his childhood and do his upbringing all over again.

Every murderer has a sad story of abuse, terrible upbringing, drugs, alcohol, mental problems, etc.

Meanwhile, thank God the governor had the good sense to go forward with the lethal injection.

[Dr Moe]

Wools,

good we are Happy Grossman is dead ok!!! now you have NOT one single prrof that Chabad wanted Grossman OUT of Jail.. that will stay NULL and Void.

And Grossman did not have mental problems as per the Jury, he grew up as a secular Jew and practiced is Secular Jew when he killed Peggy Parks of blessed memory, had Grossman gone to Yeshiva he would have NOT killed Peggy Parks OBM and Peggy would have been allive today.

[Dr Moe]

Wools,

And the beautiful thing is that Grossman own Secular Jewish community who raised him and taught him something DID NOTHING to help Correct him, yet Chabad was the FIRST to help out.. and there is no known fact that Grossman own family came to help him.. it was Chabad that came out to help Grossman get corrected.

[Bill]

"It was Chabad that came out to help Groasman get corrected." - Moe

Moe,

Mr. Grossman is dead - very, very dead.

[Bill]

He didn't "get corrected."

He caught a bad case of -dead-.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dr. Moe, I do not disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

I disagree with the methods and tactics that were used by Chabad schluchim who obviously were too immature to understand what they were doing.
If the Rebbe were still alive and well, this is the kind of statement that would have guided the process:

Martin Grossman committed a heinous crime some 27 years ago. There is no excusing that crime. Over the past 27 years, Grossman has come to realize the horror of the act he did, and that there is no way he can undo what happened that terrible day. He has, over the years, resolved to do whatever he can to improve what is left of himself as a person. Through a long series of steps towards self examination and understanding of what his actions have caused, he has finally achieved a comprehension of what has happened because of his deportment. He has indeed come closer to God through a prolonged process of study and prayer. We humbly ask the governor to stay his execution and consider instead that a life in prison be considered, so as to allow Grossman to continue his journey towards achieving forgiveness from his victim's soul.

Instead, Dr. Moe, we got a disgusting outpouring of hate aimed at the governor and the victim's elderly mother. The gist of Chabad's approach was that Grossman had become religious, and so should be let off the hook, because look at what a swell guy he now is, thanks to finding religion.

Regarding Reb Rubashkin, I have outlined my 6 Step Plan in posting many weeks ago, which involved:

Acting contrite and sorrowful in front of the Judge

Offering restitution to all who were wronged

Donations to Hispanic Immigrant Rights groups

Offering to immediately correct all violations found by any government agencies at Agriprocessors

Pleading ignorance and misunderstanding of much of the law, because of his lack of secular education

An immediate plan to take courses in business ethics and business law

This is the exact same advice I would give to a loved one who found himself in serious legal trouble. In fact, I gave very similar advice to a family member who got himself in serious trouble with the law over a business matter several years ago.

If I could meet with the Rubashkins, that's the advice I would have given him. IT IS STILL NOT TOO LATE.

That is my concept of Ahavas Yisroel and helping a fellow Yid in serious trouble. If you, Cheskel, Sarah, Sam, Chaim, etc. feel otherwise, please realize that you are doing Sholom a huge disservice.

[Dr Moe]

hate aimed at the governor and the victim's elderly mother.
L I A R

The gist of Chabad's approach was that Grossman had become religious, and so should be let off the hook

L I A R

[Jerome Soller]

OMG,
All people have biases. Have you read any of my approximately 50 posts I have made on this site over the last three years on the Rubashkin accusations/trials!? What are you calling me out on??? Be precise, as your post is not clear. How, based on the previous 50 or so posts on this issue, do you characterize my opinions on the issues? Please answer that, and explain the point that you are trying to make. OMG, you seem to be driven by emotion, because you are making blanket assumptions about people you have never met and quite obviously have never read their posts.

It is not clear, based on the evidence presented to this point, that the State of Iowa has made a strong case. It appears, at least to me as a casual observer, that there is a reasonable doubt. This does not mean that SMR is innocent, but there is not sufficient evidence to convict him on the State of Iowa charges. However, in the federal trial for fraud, in my opinion, there was no reasonable doubt. There, my views are similar to WoolSilkCotton.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dr. Moe,

http://www.vosizneias.com/49584/2010/02/17/new-york-editorial-a-postmortem-on-the-grossman-execution/

"...The harassment to the victim’s family was so significant that they actually asked the Jews to stop calling them and harassing them. Indeed, the family of this woman were called “Nazis” in asking for the death penalty being invoked here..."

http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/story.aspx?storyid=125444

"...Park says she was upset with some opponents of the execution...Jewish groups which she said went too far. According to Park the family was harassed over the past week and she thinks it is reprehensible..."

"...phone calls to Governor Crist actually said, “By us.. the most important thing is a Jewish life.” What?? Is this person insane? Is this the message that we are giving- yes seek justice in every way, but when it comes to one of us – don’t mete out the punishment that the wheels of justice finally came up with – because this guy happens to be one of us..."

http://www.vosizneias.com/?s=grossman&x=0&y=0

But Moe, don't let facts get in your way.

[s]

I read there were tropical storms in Guatemala, and landslides in the Chimaltenago region that killed 60 people. Did this affect the villages those Mayan Indian people who worked in Postville were from?

[Chaim]

WoolSilkCotton

“If I could meet with the Rubashkins, that's the advice I would have given him. IT IS STILL NOT TOO LATE.”

You are a charlatan, pathological liar and plain old run-of-the-mill [Jewish] anti-Semite! You and other hatters on this site parade many times offering genuine “good advice” to Rubashkin and to many other –

Yet at moments of truth, you can’t conceal any longer year deep-routed, discusting, blind hatred to all frum yiden.

With “friends” and “advisers” like you, who needs enemies?

I hope and pray that you will do Teshuva, and the layers of hatred towards fellow yiden will be peeled away and your Neshama will shine through. By the way, as a yid – regardless of your reprehensible views and attitudes toward other yiden – I would defend you and do all possible to help you in [heaven forbid!] a state of need.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chaim, think this over-

Your approach has Grossman rotting in the ground, and Rubashkin rotting in prison, soon to receive a lengthy sentence.

My approach (May 30, 2010 at 10:59 PM) had a small chance to get Grossman life in prison. My approach could also maybe get Rubashkin a reduced sentence and a chance at freedom eventually, maybe with a deal for home confinement after serving a few years in prison, maybe serving at an Aleph Institute yeshiva, etc.

Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. My plan for Rubashkin is realistic and stands a small finite chance. Your arguments on behalf of Rubashkin have proven worthless, have landed him in prison, and will get him another 25 years when June 22 arrives.

So who is the real Rubashkin hater, you or me?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chaim, really, work past your hate for me, and think realistically about what can be done to still salvage the Rubashkin fiasco.

Denying all wrongdoing hasn't worked. Denying most wrongdoing hasn't worked. He was already found guilty and will be sentenced to something between 7-25 years on June 22.

The state trial still in progess, even if he wins the case, will still see him sentenced to at least 7 years (probably more) on June 22.

So what's wrong with considering my approach? Don't let the bigmouths in Crown Heights inflate you with silly bravado. Numerous Lubavitchers I spoke with in private are aware that my approach is his only hope, but the Committee of Idiots who advise SMR will not hear of any compromise.

[chabadnik attorney]

HI WSC, I thought the whole campaign to save Grossman was weird. I didn't know it was spear headed by Chabad. I also thought they were only trying to spare him the death penalty, not to free him. It did not not appeal to my emotions at all that he was Jewish or that he repented. The issue that caught my was his alleged mental illness. If that point is true then I think he or any mentally ill person should have been spared the death penalty but not set free. I don't really remember if I signed the petition or not. I may have signed it after receiving the request umpteen times, after reading about the possible mental incapacity and considering my general opposition to the death penalty. But the first time I saw it, I was wondering why the heck they were trying to save this murderer. I am still wondering why a group of people who I would imagine support the death penalty, would launch that massive campaign. Wierd.

BTW, I am not opposed to the death penalty in theory, but I do not trust mankind to carry it out appropriately or justly.

[OMG]

Jerome, the reason I took you to task because you wrote “Well, as a casual outside observer, there seems to be at least a reasonable doubt so far on this case as to whether Sholom Rubashkin personally knew about this.” You trying to corroborate your view that the state case was only a witch hunt, first you claim you are a casual observer, therefore we should take you seriously and two your wrote “I did not personally believe so on the other Rubashkin trial, given the preponderance of evidence.” Therefore because you agreed with the fraud outcome we should give special consideration for your conclusion on the state trial, without giving us any reason why we should believe that the state was on a “witch hunt” that is why, I called you out. An argument could be made that the trial so far was not the best what prosecutors should layout, but at the same time we could say that the only reason you came to this conclusion because you hope that is the case but not because you have first hand information or even analyzed the case, please don’t site to me the blog which covers the trial meagerly, sometimes minutes without any reporting.

Finally, get the fact straight “preponderance of evidence” relates to a civil case not criminal that is beyond reasonable doubt which is a higher standard, which the State must meet.

[Bill]

Wool,

I like your six step program to help Rubashkin.

I would like to add an additional step which I think aught to be placed at the top of the list:

#1: To appologize to the Court and the prosecution, in open court, for failing to publically oppose supporters who have groundlessly accused the justice system of misconduct and anti-Semitism.

I firmly believe that Rubashkin has no chance at leniency unless he takes this step.