Rubashkin Attorney Accuses Catholic Church Of Suborning Perjury To Smear Rubashkin

“As much as it pains me to say it, this Catholic church was a longterm adversary of Agriprocessors,” said Rubashkin attorney F. Montgomery Brown.

Sholom Rubashkin trial: Notes from opening statements
BLOG POST BY JENS KROGSTAD • Des Moines Register

1:15 p.m., Waterloo, Ia. — About two rows in the courtroom are filled with supporters of Sholom Rubashkin, largely male students from Postville.

Sholom Rubashkin, left, talks with Defense Attorney F. Montgomery Brown during a break following open statements of the child labor changers trial at the Black Hawk County Courthouse on May, 10, 2010, in Waterloo, Iowa. (Rick Tibbott / pool photo)

In the morning, they shared the bench with some members of the Catholic church in town, which has been highly critical of Agriprocessors since the raid.

One of the ministers looked at his colleague in surprise when the defense attorney accused the church of not only coaching, but essentially blackmailing, the Hispanic families caught up in the May 2008 raid on the plant.

“As much as it pains me to say it, this Catholic church was a longterm adversary of Agriprocessors,” said attorney F. Montgomery Brown.

He said a mantra within the church’s walls was: To continue to receive support from the church after the raid, immigrants had to say they were mistreated by the company.

Comments

[Concerned for the Postville Area...]

He said a mantra within the church’s walls was: To continue to receive support from the church after the raid, immigrants had to say they were mistreated by the company.

Mr. Brown's paycheck must be pretty rosy to accuse the church of this twisted lie. Man I hope he can sleep at night! Nothing like selling you soul! May God forgive him.

[s]

one of the Postville natives who no longer posts on this site wrote last year when temporary job agencies recruited staff to work in Postville, a statement like she could not begin to count how many of their Agri's temporary employees have been dumped on the doorstep of Saint Bridget's (when they did not work out as employees or needed help their first weeks there due to extensive payroll deductions). I don't think there was any blackmailing of families affected by the raid. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were donated to this church for the purpose of helping families affected, Jewish families from different states donated part of this. These "male students from Postville" who are in the courthouse supporting S.R. damaged Father Ouderkirk's car a few months back. Nice thing to do to someone in his 70's who came out of retirement to help families affected by the raid and was up from 6a.m. past 9p.m. working with those families.

[Effie]

Concerned for the Postville Area

How do you know for certain that this statement is nothing less then 100% accurate?

Because you couldn't imagine a church acting this way?

[Siteowner's Note: This comment was posted by a sockpuppet who has used several different names, now including "Effie." But Effie is a regular commenter and the sockpuppet clearly knew this.

This type of behavior will not be tolerated.]

[state of disgust]

Sorry Effie, I met with Father Paul and other church officials many times and I'm still in contact with them. I watched there rescue operation and heard them counsel families torn apart by the raid. Mr Brown's accusation is full of sh*t.

[effie]

state of disgust: I didn't post that comment. Someone else did using my moniker. They've pulled that crap before but with other regular posters.

[OMG]

Effie isn’t it a fact that you cannot prove a negative so it would be impossible to prove that the father was not helping people if they didn’t have something bad to say about Agri, what I would challenge SMR lawyer he is the one who made the claim in the affirmative so let him prove that his highly charged claim is true who are his witness, who would attest to this alleged fact?

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[. . .this Catholic church was a longterm adversary of Agriprocessors,” said Rubashkin attorney F. Montgomery Brown.]

This statement should read - Agri-Processors was a long-term adversary of St. Bridget Catholic Church.

We are a merciful parish; 'Agri-Processors' harbored many indescretions. We merely brought those indescretions to the forefront. In other words, we exposed their shame.

[effie]

LISTEN UP! I didn't post the 3:48 pm comment.

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[He said a mantra within the church’s walls was: To continue to receive support from the church after the raid, immigrants had to say they were mistreated by the company.]

I take it-Atty Brown 'nose' isn't required to tell the truth in court.

Mr Brown . . . The immigrants didn't have to lie. The truth is damning enough as it is.

[effie]

Oops! I meant the 3:08 pm comment. Not me.

[androgynous]

this is all BS! Leave rubashkin alone!

[A E ANDERSON]

WAS POSTVILLE CHURCH REALLY A NEST OF RADICAL LEFTISTS, OR A LEGITIMATE HOUSE OF WORSHIP]?

Hmmm... Odd move for Brown unless he thinks anti-Roman Catholicism will play better in Iowa than anti-Semitism.

Still, nobody asked these folks to swim over the Rio Grande, forge immigration and proof of age documents, hoof it up to Iowa and then, when they failed their probationary employment, to throw themselves on the charity of Rome?!

If Agriprocessors was such a bad place to work, why did they go to unnecessary effort of transporting themselves as illegals thousands of miles from home, when they could have stayed in Guadalajara and washed dished or cleaned toilets there?!

Though I am loathe to blame the Church when it already the subject of so much malicious propaganda from other quarters, I distinguish between responsible elements of Church (the mainstream), its hierarchy, bishops, etc., and CERTAIN sectors of the Church which have long been the refuge of left-wing agitators, revolutionary priests, Zapatistas, illegal immigrant asylum arrangers, etc.

Given the presence of radical elements of organised labour in this whole affair, I suspect that the Postville Church may well have become a nest of left wing and pro-illegal agitation. This would go far to explain Montgomery's remarks, which seem outlandish if one is unaware of the longstanding unholy alliance between the radical priests and the radical left.

(I understand that the both the current and previous Holy Fathers have made great efforts to distance themselves and the mainstream Church from the abuses of left-wing radical clerics and others who use their pulpits and resources for political and social agitation).

[Robert Wisler]

I thank God that I didn't contribute anything to Rubashkin's "defense" (ie: whining about "anti-Semitism") fund. Rather, I spent my dollars on supporting St. Brigets. The behavior of the Orthodox Jews in this instance makes me ashamed to be part of the Jewish people.

Quit bitching about anti-Semitism and behave honestly and fortrightly toward your fellow man (including gentiles). This tragedy would have never happened if we Jews were humble and honest in our dealings and friendly and considerate to our gentile neighbors.

[A E ANDERSON]

Why should the local church provide an attractive nuisance for these illegals by aiding them to stay in the United States? Indeed, the church should have been communicating with their fellow churchmen South of the Border to tell the illegal workers NOT TO IMMIGRATE without adequate resources and an appropriate, bona fide visa.

Sheltering, aiding and abetting these illegal immigrants makes the church complicit in their crimes, and indeed serves to advertise that the church will be the American safety net for those seeking to enter the profitable remittance economy of illegal work here.

There are plenty of churches in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador that can serve the soteriological needs of these people, in their home countries and at the expense of their home parishes and dioceses (who certainly wouldn't wish to benefit from the ill-gotten proceeds of illegal labour in the form of remittances and tithes given from their proceeds)!

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

There were several posts here about the effort to obtain U-visas for people working in the plant. A few are:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/07/
agriprocessor-3.html

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/05/breaking-goverment-gives-former-agriprocessors-workers-humanitarian-visas.html

I guess anyone who told Agri workers to try to obtain a U-visa could be smeared.

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[Posted by: Robert Wisler | May 10, 2010 at 04:51 PM]

Thank you.

[Concerned for the Postville Area...]

May I add that when employment agencies came to Postville and brought/encouraged illegals for employment at Agri they washed their hands of them. High rent, low wages and multiple deductions out of their pay checks left them destitute. Winter was setting in and they were in the process of shutting off electricity and evicting tenants and leaving them out in the cold, many had young children. If the church hadn't stepped in the outcome would have been tragic! It is INSANE to accuse the church of any hidden agendas. You people whom think otherwise are pure crazy. Time has passed and how quick you are to forget the human tragedy involved with this whole nightmare of the story involving the Rubbish! But again living next to this hellhole has been quite an eye opener for most of us that blog.

[TheTruthAsItIs]

Believe it or not -

I belong to the Catholic Church in Postville.

And, I can definitely attest to the fact that Father Ouderkirk, Sister Mary M., and Pope Benedict didnt all get together to conspire to do SMR and Agriprocessors in via "muscling" the Guatamalan minors....LOL

What an idoit. How much money is this F. Montgomery Brown getting an hour again!?!?!?!? And that is the angle he comes up with on the first day?!?!?!

I'd thought I had heard every dumb f--k argument during the bank fraud trial.

St. Bridgets and members of its parish should be ( and have been) commended on their good works during the raid and its aftermath. If provided housing, clothes, etc to these people ( I thought I had read at one time at an expense of $80,000/month or something like that.)

Even with help from the Arch Diocese, that still was a tremendous burden on our Church.

And now Brown is spewing the psuedo slander......

Please......

[Yosef ben Matitya]

this is all BS! Leave rubashkin alone!
Posted by: androgynous
hey, andy
it is him who isn't leaving people alone! didn't u notice?

[Bill]

At the end of the day, to SMR this case is about Christians persecuting Jews.

That's his view of the world - and that is the "defense" he is mounting through his attorney. It is highly doubtful, however, that he will prevail through this approach. It remains to be seen whether the prosecution will successfully prove to a unanimous jury beyond a reasonble doubt that SMR had actual (or constructive?) knowledge that he was employing minors illegally.

That is a very, very heavy burden of proof and of evidence - with or without, how shall I put it, "the purported anti-Semitism fudge factor."

Will the prosecution succeed and overcoming this burden? The fact that SMR's attorney is looking to divert the blame seems to suggest that the evidence to come against SMR will be devastating.

[state of disgust]

AE Andersen:
You're a sick puppy.
From the beginning Father Paul and others at St Bridget's approached Rubashkin in a sense of community to report on the horrific stories they were hearing and asking that he put a stop to the abuse. SMR stonewalled.

BTW, the first undocumented workers to arrive in Postville were brought from NY by Aron. They would ask if there was work for their uncle, brother, nephew etal at the plant if they came to Postville and the answer was always yes.

No one in Mexico or Guatemala knows where Postville IA is. Like the ad in La Prenza Libre in Guatemala said "good jobs await you at a meat packing plant in Postville, IA."

The buck for all these "illegals" starts and stops at the desk of the RCF.
AGRI-vated has it exactly right. The Catholic Church was not against Agri. It was Agri that was aginst the Catholic Church and anyone else who stood up for the workers.

Effie - sorry about that. Should have realized there was something screwy with the post.

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[. . . I can definitely attest to the fact that Father Ouderkirk, Sister Mary M., and Pope Benedict didnt all get together to conspire to do SMR and Agriprocessors in via "muscling" the Guatamalan minors.]

I am drawn to expand on this statement. When Father Lloyd Paul Ouderkirk was asked to come to Postville, he was not in good health. Despite this, he accepted the Arch Bishop’s request. Years later, he was allowed to retire. He voluntarily returned, post-raid, to continue his devotion.

Father Paul has a profound love & compassion for Hispanic ministry. He would NEVER exploit/taint his position/vocation via manipulative persuasion. Anyone who implies/voices this-is absurd.

Rev Ouderkirk's actions are solely/exclusively that of a Christian. His mission is to comfort & serve the oppressed. That is all.

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[Father Paul . . . would NEVER exploit/taint his position/vocation via manipulative persuasion.]

Just a note-

This is the difference between Sholom & Rev Ouderkirk. Perhaps, this is why the Church and Agri-Processors are considered-longterm adversaries.

[justice seeker]

Father Ouderkirk is an honorable man which is more than can be said of SMR. He recognizes the face of evil, which in this case wears a beard and toasts with vodka and mountain dew while others suffer.

[effie]

state of disgust: For some reason they target sage the most. This is the first time for me.

[WoolSilkCotton]

All you need to know about POS Rubashkin and his assorted sordid hassidic henchmen:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=14011

[Kid Doc]

I am so happy the attorney is blaming the Church for this mess. Thank goodness, members of this Church will be the jurors. Let's see how they react to these accusations of their beloved Priest.

[Dr Moe]

members of this Church will be the jurors

That is correct; it will be easier to get the Jew by the Jury of his so called peers.

[Bill]

Moe,

If a Jew refuses consider a Christian his peer (or visa versa), it is their problem - not the justice system's.

[Dr Moe]

Bill,

Apparently some are saying, that some members of the Jury are part of the Church that has a feud with the Jews.

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[Posted by: Dr Moe | May 10, 2010 at 08:36 PM]

You clearly have issues with desegregation. In this forum, we are discussing violation(s) of United States law/NOT Anti-Semitism. I am not concerned with the accused regarding his faith. I am concerned with the allegation(s) that children were employed by the Agri-Processors facility. If Sholom was Catholic, I would want him to be held accountable for his actions/inactions.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Paranoia about antisemitism and antisemitic conspiracies, delusions of self-importance, and persecution complexes are the stock-in-trade of the Rubashkin Crime Family and their host of sycophants found daily on these threads.

There is simply no other explanation to them as to why they are in such trouble.

[Bill]

Moe,

only you are saying that the Church in postville has a "feud with the Jews."

[state of disgust]

I really like the part of the defense that claimed the RCF was trying to provide cheap meat for millions of Jews. Lets see, hmmm 6+ Million Jews in the US. Most are Reform or do not belong to a synagogue. Only a small % of Conservative Jews keep kosher (however you define it. So just exactly how many millions of Jews did he think he was going to supply with meat??? Talk about faulty logic! But then, they really aren't interested in making logical

[Dr Moe]

Bill,

It is very well known that the Church and the shul in Postville was a very cold relationship even before the raid and you will soon hear testimony that some of the illegals were told that if they wanted goodies from the church after the raid they have to in someway bad mouth Sholom Rubashkin.

Even in todays testimony some of the minors didn't say the condition were bad, the worst they said was that they slipped sometimes on the floor, yes in every beef plant you can slip on the floor even with the best boots on.

Now some are saying there are members of the Jury that are part of this church, so it is possible that the Pastor told them to get the Jew Sholom Rubashkin, but that is something that I don't know and you don't know unless the member of the Jury who is member of that church will post here.

[Bill]

Moe,

First you said the church has a "feud with the Jews." Now you are describing it as "a very cold relationship."

which is it, and what proof do you have?

[effie]

The court and the attys would ask any potential members of the jury if they had any connection with the case, raid, company, or church. So, I highly doubt any member of this jury are members of this particular church or know any of the people who are going to testify.

[A E ANDERSON]

Gentlemen:

Fine. You maintain that the Roman Catholic Church in Postville is not a nest of radical priests, Zapatistas, anarcho-syndicalists, wobblies and other labour extremists. They merely offered Christian charity to . . . poor Christians.

Fine and good. So why the constant drumbeat against Agriprocessors and Mr. Rubashkin? Certainly it would be nice if Mr Rubashkin had offered charity to all the failed employees at Agriprocessors, severance packages, long-terms loans, airfares back to the home country, perhaps some retraining funds! I'm sure all the Fortune 500 have charity and social service programs for their rejects and workers who wash out.

The record is clear that Mr Rubashkin was more than generous supporting Jewish causes and institutions in Postville. Why can't the Catholics support their own without reference to Mr Rubashkin? Mr Rubashkin did not make these campesinos poor, nor is he personally liable for their social support. In fact, they DEFRAUDED HIM AND BANKRUPTED HIS FAMILY BY LYING ABOUT THEIR BACKGROUNDS AND AGES.

Has anybody given any thought to that... that had these workers told the truth about themselves, and refrained from misrepresenting themselves with forged documents, there would have been no crisis, no raid, creditors would have been paid, and there would have been several years of plenty for Postville!

Whenever I've accepted employment out of town, I calculated what my expenses might be under a worst case scenario. Everybody knows you need to be prepared to subsidise yourself for the first few weeks or months, until full paychecks begin to kick in.

The answer to any failed Agriprocessor employee was not to deposit him or herself at the church door hands extended, but to march post haste to the Greyhound station and catch the next bus out for the place from whence they came in the first place.

END OF STORY.

[nachos]

Mr. Anderson:
I don't understand how you could possibly defend Agriprocessors here.

Didn't Shalom Rubashkin want his trial moved because Postville was "like Nazi occupied Poland?" Doesn't this phrase bother you. Maybe you didn't have any relatives killed in Aushwitz, but I did. As a Jew, I was deeply offended by this and you should be also. Many gentiles from the Postville area gave their lives to liberate Nazi occupied Poland and idiots like you spit on their graves.

If you want the right to comment about Postville, then you need to go there. Maybe you should meet the employee that had over $7,000 worth of child support witheld from his pay for half a year and the money was never submitted by Agri. Maybe you should meet the people that had health premiums witheld but are now at the edge of bankruptcy because the premiums were turned over to an insurance company.
Maybe you need to meet some of these immigrants and hear what they were promised versus delivered.

I have a question for you. As a Jew, what right do we have to ask a gentile to risk their life to save ours, when we won't speak out against evil and injustice being done to a gentile in our midst.

I blame the Rabbi's in Postville (especially the ones teaching in the yeshiva) for what is happening to Shalom. The Rabbis were to busy getting fat at Shalom's table to stand up and say no. If they had and Shalom had repented , G-d would have forgiven him and this whole thing would have never happened.

[effie]

The last thing Rubashkin wanted to hear was the truth about their ages or whether they were in this country illegally.

I do agree with you that he doesn't have unlimited responsibility to them. However, he was responsible for their work safety. He was responsible to not use illegal child labor. He was responsible for the crappy overpriced housing. He was responsible for paying them a legal wage and overtime.

Rubashkin knew that these workers had no way to subsidize themselves for a few weeks let alone a few months. That's ridiculous. And if the jury hears it, it isn't going to go over very well.

[effie]

I took a job with NYC. After I was hired and working they told me that it would take 11 weeks to get my first paycheck. Who the hell ever heard of that before? I thought it was a bad joke. It was not. And I couldn't just quit and obtain another job quickly because there was some bizarre glitch and they were delaying the issuing of licenses that I needed to work at all in my profession. And my job was so demanding that I couldn't find some little part time job doing anything to tide me through. It caused me a great deal of hardship and I would have never taken the job with the city if they had told me up front.

[Dr Moe]

that had over $7,000 worth of child support witheld from his pay for half a year and the money was never submitted by Agri.

He was never ever charged or convicted for such a crime in the courts of the United States of America, but again there are rumors that drugs were sold in the plant as well as prostitution so we keep on hearing different rumors all the time.

The last thing Rubashkin wanted to hear was the truth about their ages or whether they were in this country illegally.

Sholom Legal team said they will present evidence how shalom asked to make sure there was no one working under age wait to hear the testimony.

He was responsible to not use illegal child labor. He was responsible for the crappy overpriced housing.
The Minors who were coming from work in the fields of Guatemala to work at Agri LIED to HR with the help of their fathers and uncles as per todays testimony.

The last thing you want is the CEO running around the plant looking at everyone features on their faces to find out how old they are, even though the USDA saw more then Sholom and said nothing but again they are not employment enforcement.

[Dr Moe]

Also note the Government gave these witness, Work visas just to testify against Shalom, so what you expect from them to say Shalom Rubashkin gave them a bed full of roses?!

[nachos]

Dr Moe:

Just because he was never charged with something does not mean it didn't happen. Try not mix rumors with facts.

If you like, I would be happy to introduce you to some of these people stuck with medical bill or having to pay child support twice.

[Dr Moe]

Nachos,

Again there are so many rumors and till you show us there is a charge or conviction your statement stays NULL and VOID to the great American people.

We believe in justice by the courts of the United States of America not justice by a blog.

Keep up making rumors, the Government one by one already has reduced some charges before starting the case but not all due to bad rumors or made false stuff.

[effie]

Dr. Moe: If that is his defense, he's going to be found guilty.

[nachos]

Dr. Moe:

Many SS officers were never charged. Does that make them innocent of participating in the holocaust?

The Rabbis that never stood up and said "stop it" have the blood of this fiasco on their hands.

Why Aaron did not take the blame to spare his son is the height of selfishness.

What parent would not give their lives to save their child? Aaron would have gotten at most two years in a medical facility. Shalom instead is facing life and his children will grow up without a father.

I am not spreading rumors. On the other hand people like you are the reason why we were kicked out of our land not once, but twice.

[nachos]

We believe in justice by the courts of the United States of America not justice by a blog.

Posted by: Dr Moe | May 10, 2010 at 11:13 PM

The courts have already spoken. They said guilty. Let me hear you say it. Shalom Rubashkin is guilty of bank fraud. Say it or your comment is a lie

[Dr Moe]

nachos,

Sholom Rubashkin is %100 Guilty of Bank Fraud and lying to First Bank by inflating his invoices just like I lied to the bank when I purchased my home and I inflated how much I earn.

Guilty ok!!!

[OMG]

Moe, we believe in justice by the courts of the United States of America not justice by a blog.
You got it right, we should believe in the system. It is about time that all on this blog should recognize what you are so eloquently put to rest.
On another note, when are you going to lay it out for all that the 86 count fraud conviction is a just conviction, and we should believe in the system as you are preaching. I think we will wait for eternality.

[justice seeker]

Dear Dr. Moe: Perhaps you feel unburdened now that you have confessed to fraud, and are an admitted liar. Really, your admissions were unnecessary. Those of us who have read your posts have long recognized that you are cut from Rubashkin cloth. Weak on principle and long on rhetoric. I confess your bullshit is mildly entertaining, in the same way a court jester is funny.

[Dr Moe]

Justice,

Trust me my bank is more then Happy to have given me the mortgage as they are making a nice profit so is half of the home owners do.

[nachos]

Dr. Moe:

So you stole $30 million from the bank? Let me guess this right, you purposely bore false witness to the bank?

You broke one commandment to make a profit. You call yourself a religious Jew. You are standing on the wrong mountain.

[nachos]

Trust me my bank is more then Happy to have given me the mortgage as they are making a nice profit so is half of the home owners do.
Posted by: Dr Moe | May 11, 2010 at 12:36 AM

Dr. Moe:
How do you know that your bank is "happy?" Did you tell them that you lied on your bank application? My guess is that you are just assuming they are happy and we all know what happens when you assume.

[Jerome Soller]

Dr. Moe,
Just because you break the law, you think that you can absolve others that break the law. I guess it is a consistent pattern here, for someone that breaks the law of the land. It does not absolve you or Sholom Rubashkin of fraud, just at a different scale. If you default on your loan after you lied, the bank may choose to pursue fraud charges that override a bankruptcy. Good luck!? Because of people like you, many loans end in default and ethical and honest small businesses are forced to pay higher interest rates and have a difficult time getting credit lines in this economy.

[Abracadabra]

Dr Moe,

Lying is lying, whether or not you THINIK the bank is happy or not, does not change the fact that you lied on your mortgage application.

(If the banks would be so happy with people lying on their mortgage applications, why do they ask people the questions, instead of just assuming numbers that would "make them happy"?)

Anyway, the point is that lying is lying.

It is against Jewish law to lie.

So, you're a proud Jew, huh?

The attitudes and behaviors which you demonstrate make me sick.

Dr Moe, I'm a proud Jew and I did NOT lie on a mortgage application.

Your thinking your bank doesn't care about a lie does not absolve Rubashkin or any other business owner from lying, cheating and stealing in any way.

Rubashkin was found guilty of breaking the law. That involved lying and other crimes. He is a convicted felon.

If you're a proud Jew and a liar who wants to think lying doesn't matter, go stand with your false pride along with Rubashkin. But you should be ashamed of his lies and crimes, not proud of them (nor of your own!).

As far as I am concerned, it is a Chillul Hashem (a desecration of G-d's name) and as a Jew I am embarrassed that one of my own lied in any way in his business dealings. I believe that we Jews owe a debt of gratitude to this great country of the USA and part of that debt of gratitude manifests in abiding by all the laws. Even those laws that you would like to fool yourself into thinking "the bank is happy for us to lie about".

Not too long ago Jews were not allowed to own land or engage in certain professions or businesses. I am grateful that we are not oppressed and not limited in professions or other similar discriminatory business laws. We owe it to the USA to follow all the laws to the letter.

As a Jew I am ashamed of Rubashkin's multiple crimes and lies. And you should be too.

[WoolSilkCotton]

As per the ultra-orthodox Torah and the hassidic Tanya, lying to a nonJew is not lying. It is perfectly ok.

Commiting crimes against nonJews is ok, because they are subhuman, and therefore such acts are not crimes.

NonJews are subhuman, no different than insects.

They exist only as slaves for the ultra-orthodox Jew.

[Hometown Postville]

Bravo Abracadabra, Nachos and Jerome Soller! Very well said. A lie is a lie is a lie. And doing it in the name of Jewish charity at innocent people's expense does not make you a hero.

[Dr. Moe]

Most home owners lie how much they earn when they take a loan for a mortage so now you put half of The American people in prison.

[nachos]

Dr. Moe:

I didn't lie when I got my mortgage. Does your bank know you lied?

[WoolSilkCotton]

My mortgage application required documentation for each and every step. 1040, W-2, credit reports, etc.

So Moe, how did you go about lying on a mortgage application? Did you forge your W-2 or your 1040?

[Bill]

"I lied to the bank when I purchased my home" - Moe

Moe,

I'm not surprised that you are the type of person who would lie to the bank to get a loan. That's classic haredi.

What is absolutely stunning is that you have no shame or fear in connection with admitting this online and to the whole world.

This admission totally undermines your advocacy for SMR in every aspect.

[Dr. Moe]

Nachos,

it would be hard to proof anything you post in this blog till you show us proof sweety :)

[WoolSilkCotton]

It is not a lie if you are hassidic and the person you lie to is not.

The hassidic Torah, a.k.a. the Tanya,expressly says so.

[Isa]

"""""

As per the ultra-orthodox Torah and the hassidic Tanya, lying to a nonJew is not lying. It is perfectly ok.

Commiting crimes against nonJews is ok, because they are subhuman, and therefore such acts are not crimes.

NonJews are subhuman, no different than insects.

They exist only as slaves for the ultra-orthodox Jew.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 11, 2010 at 06:49 AM
"""""

My Modern Orthodox rabbi taught in effect crimes against non-Jews are just as bad as crimes against Jews. Also it is easier for a non-Jew to gain entry to heaven than it is for a Jew to gain entry to heaven because all the required observance that a Jew has to do.

This should set the record straight for the non-Jews that visit here.

[Dr. Moe]

Bill,

A. I am not Haredi.

B. I am no supporter of Sholom Rubashkin nor am I a supporter of Rabbi Morris Alan. I happen to be impartial on this case.

[Isa]

WOW!!!
So us non-hasidic Jews are in the same boat as non-Jews!! I didn't know that But NOW I do
thank you WSC!

"""""

It is not a lie if you are hassidic and the person you lie to is not.

The hassidic Torah, a.k.a. the Tanya,expressly says so.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 11, 2010 at 09:20 AM
"""""

[WoolSilkCotton]

Isa, your rabbi is a good decent person.

Dr. Moe saying "...I am no supporter of Sholom Rubashkin nor am I a supporter of Rabbi Morris Alan. I happen to be impartial on this case..." is the LOL line of the day!

[effie]

I know someone who went to prison for lying on their home mortgage application. Got their father involved. He was sentenced to probation, community service, and I think either a 50 or 100k fine.

[Dr Moe]

"He was sentenced to probation, community service, and I think either a 50 or 100k fine."

Excellent point, yet Sholom Rubashkin will get 20 to 25 years for the similar situation.

[Shmarya]

Dr. Moe –

Are you really that dense?

If you would bother to check facts – which, of course, you never do – you'd see the dollar amount involved impacts the potential sentence.

26 million dollars is a whole lot more than $300,00.

Past that rather obvious fact, you must also consider Rubashkin's related criminal activity.

There. That's your dose of reality for the moment. Can your tiny addled brain process it? Of course not.

Once an idiot, Moe, always an idiot. Isn't that so?

[effie]

Dr Moe: I posted it as a cautionary tale for YOU. His kid got 3 years in federal prison, which is more similar to your situation than the father's, who only cosigned the fraudulent applications.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Just think, Moe, your holy hero, Sholom M. Rubashkin, will be sentenced to 25 years!

This will, in effect, be a sentence of LIFE IN PRISON.

[reality]

If these Guatamalians and Mexicans are such so called good Christians, than why are they breaking the law coming into the country illegally, not paying full taxes, lying about there ages to gain employment, and so on and so forth!!! Are they following the true path of rightiousness!!
Who's abusing the systems first !!!

[sage]

The reality is, that the illegals you refer to, have already paid the price for their actions.

It's time for SMR to pay for his.

[Dr Moe]

WoolSilkCotton,

Sholom Rubashkin is not my hero nor do I think he is a holy man nor is Rabbi Morris Allen, however after you and Morris Allen Celebrate Sholom Rubashkin incarceration at IHop with his Heshcsher Tzedek that no body uses and his website is already getting rusty, we shall see who will have the last laugh, with this I end off:
"SiYug La Hahma Shtika"

[Abracadabra]

"SiYug La Hahma Shtika"

Posted by: Dr Moe | May 11, 2010 at 09:00 PM

Well, Dr Moe, if that's your measure, then you've proved yourself as the village idiot by your own measure!!

MY personal measure of intelligence has nothing to do with how much you say on this blog, but rather on the merit of what you have to say.

In this regard as well, you have failed miserably.

[Abracadabra]

Yet another piece of fiction by Dr Moe:

Most home owners lie how much they earn when they take a loan for a mortage so now you put half of The American people in prison.

Posted by: Dr. Moe | May 11, 2010 at 08:01 AM

Where did you get THAT statistic from? Did your mortgage bank (the one that you think "is happy" by your lie on your mortgage application) give you this statistic?

Or did you gather this information from the underage illegal aliens who are "happy" to be abused by their employers who give lots of charity from the blood sweat and tears of their unpaid overtime?

Or is this just a statistic you made up in order to make yourself feel better about lying to your bank in order to get a mortgage?

Wait, let me guess...

[WoolSilkCotton]

++My mortgage application required documentation for each and every step. 1040, W-2, credit reports, etc.

So Moe, how did you go about lying on a mortgage application? Did you forge your W-2 or your 1040?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 11, 2010 at 08:39 AM++

Moe, I am still awaiting your explanation as to how you lied about your income when you applied for your mortgage.