Letter from Jerusalem: Haredim "Held Captive" By Radicals

As long as the haredim themselves don't shun the haredi minority willing to beat up police officers in order to protect bones, Israelis will not be able to see that the vast majority of ultra-Orthodox community members are fine people.

Haredim captive to radicals

Extremists dominate ultra-Orthodox community, give it bad name

Hanoch Daum • Ynet

As long as the haredim themselves don't shun the haredi minority willing to beat up police officers in order to protect bones, Israelis will not be able to see that the vast majority of ultra-Orthodox community members are fine people.
 
However, the haredi narrative is stronger than their ability to speak out decisively on this matter. Most haredim also think that the racist separation at schools in very certain communities is absurd and terrible, yet they are unable to take the side of the High Court or the media, and they lack the ability to raise a hue and cry of self-criticism.
 
The haredim lack democracy and a debate culture.
 
The overwhelming majority of ultra-Orthodox community members don't think that the State needs to be ignited because of the graves in Ashkelon; even Deputy Minister Litzman doesn't think so. It's a trap laid by the radicals.

The majority is trapped in the hands of the bored radicals on the streets who have way too much free time. The overwhelming majority of haredim are also opposed to gender-segregated bus routes, but who can stand up to a "holy struggle" – that is, radicalism that portrays itself as an attempt to make the community even holier?

Precondition for sanity
Does the average haredi even understand why garbage bins need to be burned? Does the average haredi support this idiotic form of protest? Does he understand how the burning of a garbage bin advances any cause? Does it make any difference, with the exception of making the lives of municipal workers and taxpayers miserable?

The haredi community is a sane and captive sector. An overwhelming majority of Shas voters are in favor of the state and of the army. Most Agudath Israel voters oppose the anti-Intel protests. The problem is that those who endorse the protests are stronger and louder.

This is the essence of the tragedy: The power of radical haredim is greater than the power of their rabbis. The street is stronger than its leaders. This creates a situation whereby the Israeli public sees six burned down garbage bins in Jerusalem and ends up hating hundreds of thousands of haredim who never thought of undertaking this kind of vandalistic act.

This complex situation is reminiscent of the Palestinians. For them, as is the case in other regional Arab regime, there is no room for self-criticism, innovation, or self-flagellation. It is a pity that the haredi community – which boasts many good and kind people – is so behind the enlightened world; a world where self-criticism is a precondition for sanity.

Comments

[harold]

You have the radicals causing trouble and the media is eating it up hence the skewed picture. This vicious cycle continues with the coverage egging on the radicals.

A perfect example is here at FM, by ONLY focusing on the handful of negative stories, an insignificant percentage of people covered compared to the population at large one gets a false picture of just what the typical life of an orthodox Jew is all about.

[harold]

An interesting statistic from the Ynet story gives a glimpse of the satisfaction of Haredi with their lives.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3890330,00.html

And who is most satisfied with life here? The report reveals that some 88% of Jews are satisfied with their lives: 96% of haredi, 91% of religious, 86% of traditional and 87% of secular Jews.

[Shmarya]

A perfect example is here at FM, by ONLY focusing on the handful of negative stories, an insignificant percentage of people covered compared to the population at large one gets a false picture of just what the typical life of an orthodox Jew is all about.

The idiot troll speaks.

Process:

Until 'normative' haredi leaders PUBLICLY denounce the extremists, all of you who hold those 'normative' leaders to be your leaders share responsibility for that violence.

And that would include you.

[harold]

Until 'normative' haredi leaders PUBLICLY denounce the extremists

Just what does PUBLICLY mean? What happens in the media is but a flash in the pan unless it has legs. As an example most of FM's stories fade away into oblivion after a few days and newspapers find their way into the trash after a day or two.

Usually when one gets involved in airing out ones laundry in public it usually winds up being a "he says she says" yelling match and without one having to produce any evidence is usually a pointless exercise.

I know of a child custody case where the mother spent all her energies on the media and the father refused to be dragged into the fray and simply ignored them. In the end he wound up winning custody.

Extremists are sickos who should get as little publicity as possible, make then irrelevant and they will go away. They should only get the attention of the police and the inside of a jail cell. They know that they are creating a chillul hashem and don’t need to be reminded that what they are doing is wrong. I am sure that private messages are reaching the extremists and obviously they don’t care. I am sure that if “the leaders” felt that public denouncements would work they would do it. You are giving them too much credit as to their power.

[Shmarya]

Just what does PUBLICLY mean?…

Idiot.

It means in public, in this case by placing ads in haredi newspapers and throughg wall posters.

It happens to be the halakhic thing to do, because halakha views silence as agreement.

But no one as dishonest and idiotic as you would know that, now would they.

[Shlomo]

Harold what is happening is that there is a public perception of Chareidim as extremists who throw stones beat up women etc until this is condemned publicly and even then it will take time this is how chareidim are going to be viewed in the eye of the general public.
The media love trhis kind of stuff but it is terrible for the chareidim and it affects how non chareim will interact with them.
As regards to the excuses you are giving I heard second (not third hand) a respected Rabbi refuse to name a member of his community that did a terrible act under the guise of protecting Shabbos and the Rabbi protected him because after all he is a member of our community

[Maskil]

Israeli revisionist journalism: Article originally published read "As long as the haredim themselves don't shun the pagan minority...". Story altered to read "haredi minority" but no acknowledgement to the change. Zero journalistic standards. Is this even a newspaper?

[Bill]

Looks like this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black hat....

[harold]

So you are saying that because they are not taking out ads that they agree that it is ok to beat up police officers. Well I just don't buy that.

[who knows]

Haredi community can not engage in self-criticism because of the following:

1) Hofetz Hayim and his little book on Lashon Hara

2) Daas Torah and gadolim who represent it are the only ones who entitled to an independent opinion

3) Community's "good name" is more important then truth.

[Shmarya]

So you are saying that because they are not taking out ads that they agree that it is ok to beat up police officers. Well I just don't buy that.

What you refuse to buy is halakha. No surprise there.

[OMG]

Harold,
I know that even if God him/herself would come down and reveal him/herself to you, and tell you that you as all the Haredi extremism positions, you are in defiance of his/her word, you would still continue with your crazy ideas that you espouse.

It would be worthwhile, if you read this article, (see link below) where you are heading, when you lose the American none religious community, who do you think would help the state, military and economically, who would support the state the American orthodoxy?, Who basically survive here, only with the government help, i.e. section 8, food coupons, medicate, welfare, phony student tuition grants like Pell Grants, oh yea they will defend Israel. The overweight obese Haredi, who is 100lb overweight. Yes the day will come that you and your kind will regard your extremist positions, but it will be too late.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/

[chaim]

the main issue, as shmarya pointed out, is one of the possibility of self criticism. i think that orthodoxy (and particularly haredi) has painted itself into a corner. i dont think that the reason is because of isurim of lashon hara. there is plenty of that to go around in haredi communities when it comes to internal politics and the tzniut police. the issues are more fundamental. someone wrote that it is hard to stand against people who are fighting for more "holy" standards. this is important, there is a critical ambiguity about what constitutes holiness and where holiness itself perverts itself and becomes unholy. second, it has to do with protectionism and absolutist thinking - how can we be always right if we are ever wrong? the community is always on the ideological defensive because the positions it holds in general are undefensible (eg. history of the world) and so extremism must be adopted to prevent exposure

[Bill]

who knows, Chaim,

excellent synthesis!

[Bill]

I would add to this (with "4" being protectionisim per chaim):

5. the "shidduch" system, which is a perfect way for te leadership to retaliate against dissenters.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

it's not so simple.
part of the radicals are the weisses, elioshivs and others like minded g'deuylem.
these analyses are merely digressionary tactics

[jomadar]

hey shmarya go and shove youre halacha you know where you idiot

[jomadar]

sorry shmarya i missread you forgive me you are on the right side

[justayid]

"Until 'normative' haredi leaders PUBLICLY denounce the extremists, all of you who hold those 'normative' leaders to be your leaders share responsibility for that violence."

If Ehud Barak doesnt publicly denouce Avigdor Leiberman, am I responsible for all Avigdor Leieberman says and does?

Dont get me wrong - I think all haredi leaders SHOULD denounce the extremists, and by natural consequence, their movement's repuation will be sullied as long as they do not.

I am troubled by the absolutist guilt by association and required denunciation thingie.

[justayid]

"So you are saying that because they are not taking out ads that they agree that it is ok to beat up police officers. Well I just don't buy that.

What you refuse to buy is halakha. No surprise there."

I dont know about this Harold fellow. But while I am trying to improve my observanace of kashrut and yom tov, I must say that any any halacha that require me to take political and social attitudes that are illiberal trouble me, and are the ones I have most difficulty getting my arms around.

And yes, I find "Until you denounce X, you are responsbile for X" to be illiberal. I was born after the McCarthy era, but its memory was still strong when I was growing up.

[Shmarya]

I realize from what you've written that you do not understand the halakhic point, so I'll make it again:

Anyone who follows a community leader or who is a community leader and who does not publicly denounce ahalakhic acts done by members of that community is agreeing to those acts. The bar for that is set higher for community leaders.

You call that McCarthyism. I think more rational people call that responsible leadership.