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May 21, 2010

Jews For Jesus Founder Dies

Jews for Jesus 1 Martin Rosen was born April 12, 1932, in Kansas City, Mo., and was raised in an Orthodox synagogue in Denver. He adopted his Christian beliefs in 1953, the same year his Jewish-born wife converted.

Moishe Rosen, 78; founded evangelistic group Jews for Jesus

By Emma Brown • Washington Post


Jews for Jesus 1 Moishe Rosen, 78, a Jewish-born Baptist minister who founded the controversial evangelistic group Jews for Jesus, died May 19 in San Francisco. He had prostate cancer.

Jews for Jesus, founded in 1973, is the largest and most visible part of the Messianic Jewish or Hebrew Christian movement, which holds that Jews can recognize Jesus as the messiah and still retain a Jewish identity. The group has offices in 11 countries, including Israel, and employs more than 100 missionaries worldwide.

Mr. Rosen said he modeled his evangelical efforts on Vietnam War protests he saw while living in the San Francisco area. Jews for Jesus spread its ideas via street theater performances and printed pamphlets with catchy titles such as "On the First Day of Christmas My Rabbi Gave to Me . . . " and "Jesus Made Me Kosher."

Adherents handed out millions of copies on street corners and college campuses and at shopping malls and airports.

"[W]e must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus in order to be saved," Mr. Rosen wrote in a statement posted online at the time of his death. "There are no shortcuts."
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That message infuriated most Jewish leaders, who saw Mr. Rosen's evangelism as an assault on their faith. Leading Jewish groups launched efforts to counteract the efforts of Jews for Jesus and similar groups.

"What they are attempting is spiritual genocide," Philip Abramowitz of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York said in 1995 of the Messianic Jewish movement. "They want to see Judaism destroyed as an entity."

Martin Rosen was born April 12, 1932, in Kansas City, Mo., and was raised in an Orthodox synagogue in Denver. He adopted his Christian beliefs in 1953, the same year his Jewish-born wife converted.

"It wasn't because I thought Christianity was nicer than Judaism," he told the Los Angeles Times in 1985. "Nor was it because I wanted to renounce my birthright, as many have said. Basically, I accepted Jesus because, after searching the Scriptures, I found Him to be true."

Estranged from his parents after he declared his beliefs, Mr. Rosen moved to the East Coast to study theology at New Jersey's Northeastern Bible Institute. He was ordained a Baptist minister in 1957, led Hebrew Christian congregations and worked for 17 years for the American Board of Missions to the Jews, with the aim of attracting converts.

He led Jews for Jesus from 1973 until 1996, when he stepped down as executive director. The next year, he was named a "Hero of the Faith" by the Conservative Baptist Association.

He wrote numerous broadsides, articles and books, including "Christ in the Passover" (1977) and "Witnessing to Jews" (1998).

Survivors include his wife of 60 years, Ceil Starr Rosen of San Francisco; two daughters, Lyn Bond of Skokie, Ill., and Ruth Rosen of San Francisco; a brother; and two grandchildren.

Mr. Rosen was willing to go to court to defend what he said was his right to free speech and brought lawsuits to hold interfaith Seders and distribute religious literature.

"You can take from me everything but my Jewishness and my belief in God," he once said. "You can say I'm a nuisance, a Christian, out of step with the Jewish community, but you can't say I'm not a Jew."

Actually, what Rosen was is a deceitful man who lied, cheated and misrepresented to ensnare vulnerable Jews. May his name and his memory be blotted out.

[Hat Tip: Reggie.]

Comments

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I love these guys-If you see them leafletting you realy piss them off if you refer to them as "Kikes for Krist" and ask if you convert whether you then can still buy wholesale.

Baruch Hashem!

Thanks for the heads up. You made my day!

As a college student I remember joining a group of like minded students who would dance a horah circle around them, in order to prevent them from approaching people to distribute pamphlets.

We were tolerated fairly well by the administration until some of our more 'enthusiastic' members picked them up, threw them in the back of their van; and then released the brakes and pushed it off campus onto a main street. ;-).

Good night, funny man.

Good riddance.

Years ago I was walking through downtown Toronto with some friends, one of whom was a very chiloni girl. Outside a mall there were a bunch of people hanging out flyers and she picked one up. About a block later she stops and asked "What is this Jew for Jesus?" We explained, she got red in the face and marched right back to the lady to give her a piece of her mind.
They're very patient, those J4J's. Even when my friend mentioned bad things about this lady's lineage...

Actually, what Rosen was is a deceitful man who lied, cheated and misrepresented to ensnare vulnerable Jews. May his name and his memory be blotted out.

[Hat Tip: Reggie.]

Actually, I don't agree with the Jews for Jesus. I find them annoying and obnoxious, and have told them one more than one occasion exactly what they can do with their flyers. I find the Haredim who prosyletize that Menachem Schneerson is the Messiah to be equally obnoxious. As far as Messiahs go, I'm still waiting.

But for you to say that Martin Rosen's name should be "blotted out" shows that you're one intolerant SOB. We have freedom of religion in this country, and that includes the freedom for a Jew to convert to Christianity. If you're uncomfortable with that, LEAVE.

In the United States, the right to participate in the free market of ideas includes everyone, and it doesn't stop at any particular religion or ethnicity.

If you dislike J4J, I suggest educating the public of your viewpoint in the proper forum i.e. a blog, instead of baselessly diminishing a person's sincerity.

שיירבו עצמותיו, יימח שמו וזכרו. This is great news. Pity his mother didn't abort him.

some real jews are PISSED OFF by others jews and PISSED OFF at their ' rabbis' .

martin rosen was . so are today other jews like him. NOT JEWS FOR JESUS .


jesus was probably up to today the possible moshiah , bc of all he did . you see the result for yourself .
everyone MUST ACKNOWLEDGE that . whether you believe jesus was the messaiah , or not . he did a very good job .

i don't see any result from the lubavitch rebbe being the messaiah . ( except if u are a brainwashed chabad who cannot think for himself and say what the sect tells him to say - or those who MUST SAY that the rebbe is moshiah to be accepted in the sect or else ----------> get nothing if they don't . and be rejected .


Apikorus

you win the ignorance blog of the day award. Do your due diligence. Not a one of you here knows the whole story on this evil man and his organization period.

You never tangled with them and their at least six million dollar budget. You never ran into their dirty tricks and lawsuits as well as threats and you never met the thousands of families he helped destroy

take a break from here

slow down breathe and start writing with some sechel.

you have no idea about the man period. This was in fact a parve fluff article about him

He and I were first class enemies.

Very few know the inside of that cult period.

This was no peace and love of jesus movement. It was heavily funded by Southern Baptists and at one time on their team or bevy of lawyers they had mr sokolow now the supreme court rep for evangelicals on the court and of his TV show maybe still on.

You have no idea what it meant to tangle with them over an innocent kid and naive innocent family.

I am going light on you cause you really do not understand what you have written. And i get that.

But try harder to get on track here. It is no shame you blew it. We all do. But get rid of your anger that eats at you. Figure out how to forgive yourself for the acid and secrets that hurt you and your heart to this day.

Use your research skills. Find and seek the truth..

The original Jews for Jesus are in the
New Testament. JC, his disciples,Peter,Paul
etc,
The Baptist Convention use a Jewish
facade to lure unaffilaited Jews to Christianity. This is noting new in Jewish
history. We need to reidentify with God,
his Torah,the prophets,etc to understand
how Chrisitianity is not Judaism incarnated.

"[W]e must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus in order to be saved," Mr. Rosen wrote in a statement posted online at the time of his death. "There are no shortcuts."
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By Divine Providence, the "ad_icon" instruction appeared at just the right point in the story. Hashem hu HaElokim!

All of you failed to notice that he died WHEN?

Shmarya, thanks a million for this notice.

I remember as a kid my mother and I being accosted by them on a New York street, with me wearing my little kippah.

My mom turned to them and asked what was the name of Jesus' mother.

"Mary", came the immediate reply.

OK, my mom asked, "what was the name of Moses' mother?"

They had no idea.

My mom started shouting at them, "You Liars, you are not even Jewish!!!"

"How can you claim to be Jewish and not know anything about Judaism?"

She raised such a ruckus that they ran.

My mom's older and slowed now, but in her day, she was unbeatable!!

How come no one goes after the Hari Krishnas? Right out of college, living in NYC, I can't tell you how many I met with ridiculously sounding and long hari krishna first names followed by Weinstein or Cohen.

How about the Book of Gay Kocken?

Aaron,

Many of us have read the NT and reject it along with the squalid and nefarious tactics that your group employs.

I appreciate that people here have been willing to share their personal experiences and encounters with J4J inc. (the rest of the Hebrew Christian movement, aka Messianic Judaism, sic is also interesting, and often is labeled J4J, although J4J is actually the name of a specific ministry within a vastly larger complex of ministries that are often slightly different). A good source of info on these groups is Rabbi Tovia Singer, OutreachJudaism.org I've enjoyed the free mp3 downloads of his speeches. He really understands these guys. I've sometimes found that I couldn't even understand the J4J biblical arguments they are presented in such a convoluted way. Then Rabbi Singer actually fairly represents what they were meaning to say, from which viewpoint one can identify the error. And I have noticed that J4J has not been fair to R. Singer the way they counter his arguments on their own website. Anyway, it is good to be well informed if this topic becomes relevant in your life, chas'v Shalom.

In my mind, the Jews for Jesus are no better and no worse than Haredi cultists, which is exactly what they are.

The main difference is that the Jews for Jesus simply litter the streets with their crap, while the Haredim cause some real damage.

If you want to go after a cultist who makes Martin Rosen look like an angel, try Gabriel of Urantia, a tenth-rate musician operating his cult out of Sedona, Arizona. (He's not the sweatbox guy, that was someone else.)

His name should not be blotted out. If it is we will forget what he did and be more vulnerable to that sort of con in the future. Better it should live in infamy as a warning to us all.

Nishmoso Eden, Zichron Tzaddik Levrocho, Zechuso Yagen Alenu.

what this guy did is no different than what the reform and conservative movement is doing. Lieing and deceiving the public claiming they represent a book and a faith that they have long stopped having anything to do with the past except for what can gain them some convincing power at the hearts of Jewish souls

The specific problems of this guy and his organization aside, it's interesting to me that no one commenting has been willing to look critically at what role the ever-increasing focus upon messianic redemption within many Jewish groups might have played in this arena. I'm not merely alluding to Chabad and/or other chassidic groups, but really mainstream Orthodoxy. While a powerful metaphor when used properly (it's the carrot hanging from a stick in front of you - always inspiring forward momentum, but never really obtainable), the literal reading of the promise of "messianic redemption" has lead to an ages-old dance on the blade of a sword that makes it likely that some people and groups will get cut or fall off the edge.

Shmarya, you removed the J4J posting from just before 1:00pm. Without that posting, my 1:00pm comment loses its zing.

Oh well, the shmuck that got removed was suggesting we read the Book of this or that New Testament guy, hence my comment.

Mr. A, I believe Sedona is the nation's capital of cultist insanity. Too bad, because it's so incredibly breathtakingly gorgeous there. The Jewish synagogue there is one of the most beautiful buildings I've ever seen.
http://www.jcsvv.org/

How come no one goes after the Hari Krishnas? Right out of college, living in NYC, I can't tell you how many I met with ridiculously sounding and long hari krishna first names followed by Weinstein or Cohen.

The Hare Krishnas never claimed to be anything but what they were. K4K deceives the gullible and ignorant. That makes it worse.

I used to be a Catholic- 9 years of schooling by nuns no less
Converted of course

I ran into these fools once and did my 'Catholic' routine...
Called them heretics...
Told them once you accept jesus you are no longer Jewish.
pissed them off good

Apologies to John Lennon:

Waiting for the bus to the Hamptons,
Trying to get to Brooklyn or Queens.
The man selling Jesus, who smells like old cheeses,
Shoves a pamphlet in our face, what a scene.

chorus:
Christ you know it's so sleazy,
And how annoying it be.
So-called Jews for Jesus
I'd like to crucify thee.

Finally made the train into Brooklyn,
Reading paperbacks by the Gowanus.
Marty Rosen came to say,
"Jesus is kosher," oy vey!
I liked it better when the Goyim didn't want us.

chorus

Got off on Avenue J in time for Shabbos,
Saw their full page ad in Newsweek.
The magazine ad, said keeping Shabbos is bad
I said, "I'm only trying to get Shabbos peace".

chorus

Saving up tzedekah for a rainy day,
Giving a used car to charity.
Last night the rabbi said,
"Oy vey, when you're dead
You don't take nothing with you
But your neshomeh - nu!"

Made a Sunday trip to Willie Burg,
eating pas Yisrael cake.
Their newspaper ad: "Keeping kosher is sad"
Marty Rosen is a terrible fake.

chorus

Caught the early train back to Flatbush.
Hope to have some peace for a smidgen.
Some fat missionary said, "Hope your Christmas is merry,
We want you to change your religion."

Chorus

So-called Jews for Jesus
I'd like to crucify thee.

Rosen's family will sit shiva for just 3 days, expecting an imminent return!

>> Told them once you accept jesus you are no longer Jewish.
pissed them off good


I was under the impression that the halacha is once jew always jew? Looks like that's just for PR but when you get a belief spreading that threatens the social engineering that the rabbis want to do then ... the halacha that isn't halacha is once you are no longer Jewish when you go there. O.O


What a joke.

So much lashon hara from so many "good Jews." You should be ashamed.

Martin Rosen is ethnically Jewish.

He can believe in Jesus all he wants; he can be with Jesus forevermore in the hereafter, but he's still Jewish for all eternity, as is Jesus.

Good ridance to this guy but to be fair a lot of Rabbinic Dogma today is just as intellectually false as Chrisitianity is and if you ever question a Rabbi about certain things you see in the trenches that don't fit their dogma and doing something about it and that the written torah openly says not to do this they call you an apikorus. Or you claim something is Rabbinic and not Biblical and they know you are right they call you an apikorus. So we have our own cult at this point and that is why Jews are attracted to Christianity in the first place because they see our religion seems like a cult as well which is because of these Rabbi's that put their Rabbinic Dogma that has no biblical basis first.

I believe Derek Jeter is God. Prove me wrong.

the J4J types i have seen only seem to go for the obvious looking Jews and they hand them leaflets.
Just because the founder died doesn't mean it'll go away though.

Also you do get cut off from the jewish people if you do certain things, but you can always return before you die.
Converting to another religion is one way of cutting yourself off.
Being Jewish isn't just a birth right, it's also a belief system and a religion.

As many of you are aware I have a cousin who is deaf who got involved with (the cult like group) Jews for Jesus when she was a teenager.

My cousin grew up in Oklahoma, and I grew up in Illinois. Because of the miles between us, I barely knew her as a child. As adults we developed a friendship do to the connection we made using the internet and AOL.

About 13 years ago I wanted to learn as much as I could about Judaism, to help my cousin. During these early years of my own learning, I volunteered time on line as a counter-missionary in Jewish chat rooms on AOL and was also a JCOMM (in AOL's Jewish Community online). Doing this type of volunteer work is what eventually lead to me going to Neve Yerushalayim (a women's yeshiva in Jerusalem) and eventually lead me to creating The Awareness Center.

At one point a rabbi involved in the counter-missionary movement donated an Art Scroll Chumash to me to give to my cousin -- in hopes of helping her learn. At the time I was told that my cousin would most likely not take the book, without the approval of Martin (Moishe) Rosen -- who was a close friend of hers. Around that same time my cousin told me that Rosen was going to be in the Chicagoland area for a high school graduation of one of his granddaughters. She told me he wanted to meet me, and asked me if I would agree. So I did.

During the 2 1/2 hour meeting (at an upscale hotel in Skokie), Martin Rosen went on and on about how he started Jews for Jesus. He told me that it was originally an idea he had for a project for a marketing class he was taking back in the late 1950's. He told me that he had no idea that his idea would take off the way it did. When I asked him about the Chumash, he told me it was "treif", and did not want to encourage my cousin to read it. When I offered it to my cousin she took it.

As the months went on, my cousin began disclosing her own child abuse (over the years she's became public with her history, which can be found on the internet). As she began to disclose her past, I started to discontinue trying to persuade her to rethink her religious beliefs.

As survivors we all need to realize that we need to find things to help us heal. Though her views are different then mine, she deserves the right to choose what is helpful to her -- to make it through the day. She needed to find her own answers to make sense of the insanity she grew up with. I honor and respect my cousin for being able to survive and to grow into the beautiful person she has become.

What I do want to say is that it saddens me a great deal to know that one of the major things that pushed my cousin over the edge -- of not wanting to learn about "real" Judaism, came from the hands of a few Torah observant Jews in NYC. I say this because Martin Rosen was pretty smart. He set her up.

Martin Rosen knew that if his people would send her to various locations in both Manhattan and Brooklyn, that he could count on the fact that orthodox Jews would spit at her and use possible physical force against her, when they saw the literature she would handout regarding his organization. You have to understand, my cousin was in her late teens - early adulthood. She knew nothing about Judaism when she was sent by Jews for Jesus to New York to prothelytize. All she knew was how Rosen would demonize those from the Torah observant world. She was basically told that only "completed" Jews behaved civilly. Handing out his literature would prove his point. Besides being very young and deaf, my cousin is under five feet tall. Can you imagine how scared she must have been when her own people attacked her?

If only those who assaulted her back in the 1980's, knew her history, I'm sure they would have treated her differently, and perhaps she would have been more open minded in learning more about "real" Judaism.

Some comments. I have nothing good to say about Jews for Jesus, similar groups, or their founders. It is a deception to package Christianity as something it is not to appeal to Jews that do not know their own faith. I have known Hare Krishnas. They have always been candid about what they are and what they are not. No deception there.

I agree with you 100% Jerome, yet some say that the Hare Krishnas are also a cult.

Rosens mother was Christian, so he was in his life.

Most Jews object to being proslytized by other Jews, Jews-turned-Christian, or Christians. In fact, most people, of any religion, object to some stranger coming up to them and getting in their face. Any member of J4J who stands on subway platforms in NYC is likely to be the recipients of nasty comments. So are Hare Khrishnas. So, for that matter, was John the Baptist.

So what's the news here, other than you're trying to turn a discussion on the death of a man who hasn't been active in Jews for Jesus for the past 16 years into accusations, probably bogus, of sexual abuse?

Moishe Rosen was a lowlife meshummad. But he did charm, in a way. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, J4J published highly amusing tractarian literature, much of it in comic book form, that deserves further study. And Rosen himself, you have to hand it to him, brought much tsoras and hand-wringing to the comfortable Jewish leadership classes of spiritually destitute Middle America. Inadvertently, he also provided a major fund raising platform for Chabad and other groups, who could schnor by telling donors about their work against missionaries.

Hope they made it real hot for ya' down there, Moish!

Is there anything wrong with Christians who convert to Judaism?

By the same token, is there anything wrong with Jews who convert to Christianity?

For the most part, Christians who convert aren't vilified by their former co-religionists. On the other hand, a Jew who converts is considered a pariah at best by many Jews.

Who are the hypcrites here?

For the most part, Christians who convert aren't vilified by their former co-religionists.

Not true.

My wife was vilified by her family (aunts, grandmother etc.), our children were told that they were unbaptized and going to hell, several of her subordinates at work told her that she was going to hell, a physician she worked with said she must be some kind of moron to deny christ and become a Jew.

In any case, both religions treat you better than Islam does. Islamic countries will put a muslim to death for becoming Jewish or Christian.

Jews for Jesus was a deceitful cult in that it tried to convince the unaware and uneducated that evangelical Christianity is normative Judaism by adopting a series of cosmetic and misleading Jewish rituals and practices. At their core, and underneath the make-up, their leaders remained NT-thumping, bible-college trained ministers.

(The so-called "Hebrew Christians" are a more problematic group, as they try somewhat more arduously to practice rabbinic Judaism as they understand it, with the Nicene Creed stapled to it, and lots of moaning about "Yeshua." It has been my impression that bible college folks tend to lurk in the far recesses of these groups, meaning that they are an offshoot of sectarian Christianity rather than Judaism.)

Fundies and Orthodox Jews have since become famous political and social bedfellows, so it's not today the hot button issue it was 30-40 years ago. Together with the Ortho-Jewish/Christian Fundie rapprochement over Israel, there has been a tacit acceptance in some Christian circles that Orthodox Jews act righteously under their own "dispensation," which for other peoples was superseded the new dispensation of Yushke and his shluchim (hehe, apostles), but with the belief that the righteous Jews as the chosen people will accept JC in the end of days. So goes the story line.

The traditional view was that a Jew must be willing to be killed before committing an act of idol worship. While many Jews clearly went to the funeral pyre during the Crusades and at other times for refusing the cross, there remains the substantive view that Christianity does not constitute idol worship in Jewish law, but rather the more refined theological error of שטוף or "associationism." (Christianity associates subordinate persons into a Godhead it then claims is single).

(Of course, the kabalah does that as well, having God act through sefirot, but saves itself from gross theological error by ultimately de-personifying the sefirot, and identifying God himself as beyond, above and transcendent of creation.)

But there's no need to reach for theology when presented with an uncomfortable Hebrew-Christian moment. My late grandmother, when seated with Christian dignitaries at civic events, used this classic joke to great effect in deflating the missionary urge:

A Christian missionary was making his way through the South, at some point after the American Civil War. Knowing, of course, that there were scallywags and unbelievers among the carpetbaggers, especially the ubiquitous Jewish merchants, the missionary alighted on the dry goods store of Isaac Goldstein & Son, right on the main street of the podunk town.

Entering and making a show of examining the merchandise, the preacher could not hold himself back. Eyeing the slightly built proprietor hunched over a book of accounts at the till, the missionary launched into his tirade:

"For God so loved the word that he gave his only begotten son!" declaimed the pastor. Jew: if you want to obtain the rewards of heaven, you must speak to the Son of God and accept him as your savior!

Unruffled, the merchant looked up from his books, put down his quill, and deadpaned: "Mister Preacher, Vy should I talk the son if the fater is still in business?"



Dr. Dave:

Both my sister and I married Christians (me, twice). My sister's first husband was Jewish.

Both of us were immediately welcomed by our Christian in-laws. Nobody told my first or second wife (neither of whom converted) that they were going to hell for marrying a Jew. My current (second) wife is very much interested in Israel and wants to go soon.

As for my sister's Jewish in-laws, they never accepted my sister, because she wasn't the cream of Ft. Wayne Jewish society, as they professed to be (of course, my sister grew up in NYC, where we were medium-sized fish in a big ocean.

"[W]e must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus in order to be saved,"

The problem is that this isn't true. Even in the NT, JC states that not all who come to him and say 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kindgom of heaven, but only those who do the will of his father. He also said that if you love him you should follow his commands, and regarding those who truly follow him, we'll know them by their fruits. (feed and clothe the poor, heal the sick, don't kill, turn the other cheek, give...give...give....) Paul is the one who decided that all you have to do is believe, confess, and you're saved by grace, but Peter, who knew JC in life, said faith without works is dead.

The "christian" religion, although it means "follower of Christ" is nothing of the sort - they don't even follow the Christ they claim, but do the opposite of everything he said to do; Just look at the hypocritical and manipulative behavior of so many and you see they're not of God. Not to mention, they honor a false sabbath day and celebrate pagan holidays instead of Jewish ones. But JC celecrated passover, as the last supper was a passover supper. Sad, really, how the imposter church took over and turned him into something so alien to judaism that he can't even be connected to it, cause if you read the bible, he was actually a nice guy. ;)

btw - in the NT, many of the places where you see "forever" and "eternity" are mistranslations of the greek aons, meaning ages.

Also, the only times JC really got harsh with people was when he was dealing with the teachers of his day (think modern day hasids who riot, start fires, treat women like dogs, beat up women and even other men who aren't (jewish enough), steal, and such. Would any of us really want to live under their rule and, if not, why would JC?

The sad aspect of some of the responses is the use of J4J to vilify the observant and the Hasids. Forget whether a belief in the (lst, non g-d) coming of the messiah is one of the core beliefs of Judaism; whether you believe that or not, you are still witin the mainstream of Judaism. But if you change your belief in monotheism to a belief that JC or Mohammed was the messiah, then you have indeed joined another religion and to claim otherwise is fraudulant. (And btw, I know that many Jews believe you can enter a Mosque because Islam doesn't claim that M was G-d; but Islam as practiced has turned out to be so evil that I personally rank it above Xtianity as a movement to be avoided).

A E Anderson,
Of course, not all Christians are Trinitarians. The Copts have been Christians for a lot longer than any European. Many others who believe in the Unity of the Almighty have been killed by Trinitarians for that belief.

Again!

If you believe in jesus..
THEN one is subject by Christian belief
According to the Catholic Church ONCE you believe in jesus THEN you are no longer Jewish!!!
Baptists are heretics!
I can take a World Almanac and point to an unbroken line of Popes from peter to now.
I then say to a Baptist heretic.. when did YOUR church start? year 1200 or year 1400?
I can piss these fools off bad!

BTW I am a Orth. convert

Mr. A -

We both cite anecdotal evidence, I have never seen a controlled study of the convert situation.

You miss my point, however. No matter how badly ex-believers are treated by Judaism or Christianity, they are put to death by Muslims!!

I wrote this several years ago.

The founder of the despicable Jews for Jesus, Moishe Ronen (mach shmo) claimed that he was married by Rabbi Lejzor Bryks in the 1950s in Denver, Colorado. Rabbi Lejzor Bryks is the father of alleged pedophile Rabbi Ephraim Bryks and father-in-law of Paysach Krohn (protector of his brother-in-law and convicted/confessed pedophile Rabbi Lewis/Lipa Brenner, Rabbi Ephraim Bryks' father-in-law).

In an article a few years ago, he wrote about coming to Rabbi Bryks senior to discuss his wife's "budding faith in Jesus".

Boy, why am I suprised that a gnav like Rabbi Lejzor Bryks (who killed himself in 1971 after being caught stealing from insurance clients) wasn't able to instill in them Emunath Hashem.

see:
http://www.jfjonline.org/pub/newsletters/1996-04/resurrection.htm
...
I talked to a rabbi before I became a believer in Jesus-but not for myself,
you understand. I wanted him to help me dissuade my Jewish wife from her budding faith in Jesus. I chose Rabbi Brycks, the man who had officiated at our wedding. He was an Orthodox rabbi, good natured, easy to talk to - I liked him.
...


Case re: Rabbi Lejzor Bryks
(Cite as: 502 F.2d 1344)
Merritt Victor GILMORE and Rose L. Gilmore, Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. CONSTITUTION LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY, Defendant-Appellant. No. 73-1963. United States Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit.
Argued July 11, 1974. Decided Sept. 12, 1974, Rehearing Denied Oct. 2, 1974.

Oh you are all sad and pitiful. Why don't you read the new testament instead of bashing things you know nothing of.

Don't you guys know your talmud!!!!!!! Maybe you should read it one more time and then you will see that Jews who have converted to another religion retain their Jewish identity (Sanhedrin 44a).Hmm... thats interesting!!!!

ok i can anderstand jews who are secular. i can understand those who think they belive in nothing. but at least we have very special ethnicity, to be converted into any other religion means assimilation and end of jews as a nation.

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