Tel Aviv Now Has 'Kosher' Gender Separated Bus Line

Secular city's city council up in arms.

'Kosher' bus line operating in Tel Aviv
Line 322, which leaves from city with most liberal reputation in Israel, forces women to sit in back
Tomer Peleg • Ynet

A bus line that separates between men and women has begun operating in Tel Aviv, odd news for many who consider it Israel's capital of liberality and equality.

Connex line 322, a licensed bus line, travels from Tel Aviv through Bnei Brak and terminates its route in Ashdod. Women sit in the back and men sit in the front.

"All those who are educated according to the halacha maintain separation," says Yisrael as he waits at the bus stop. "Even in New York you can see single-sex buses."

Moshe Neiman, who travels to Ashdod on line 322, says its customers understand why separation is necessary. "There is almost no conflict here. Most understand the separation and know there are reasons for it," he says.

When asked what happens when passengers do not agree to the rules he answers, "Sometimes it's a difficult process, but in the end they get the message."

Chairwoman of the City Council, Yael Dayan, formerly a Knesset member belonging to the Meretz party, was surprised to learn that a "kosher" bus line was operating in Israel's most secular city.

"We need to find out if this is a privately owned line but in any case it is unacceptable," she said.

"I will recommend to passengers to boycott the line. It cannot be that women, even religious or ultra-Orthodox, do not understand the meaning of separation in public. What about couples who board the bus? Do they present a marriage license so they can sit together?"

Councilmember Meital Lahavi, who is also a Meretz member, explained that the City Council does not intervene in transportation. "If it's a public company, this is taking place with the Transportation Ministry's support," she said.

Lahavi added that she, too, would try to eradicate the phenomenon. "In the end though this is a battle that should take place in the Knesset. I hope that finally the separation lines will be prohibited by law," she concluded.

Comments

[harold]

I like this idea better than separate busses for men and women.

[Scott Salbo]

As a New Yorker, and a totally secular Jew (how can any Jew continue to believe and worship that biblical monstrosity), I can say categorically that no public bus line in New York City or anywhere in the United States has sex segregation. That is rightfully against the law. If the bus line were privately held and only supporting the ultra orthodox communities then it might be legal, but I doubt that as well. Israel's founders would be vomiting in their graves if they could actually be aware of such developments, and I wonder if they would've rethought this whole zionist experiment if they new how the religious among us would destroy the very thing that has made Jews great in the modern era, i.e., secularism.

[Mr. Apikorus]

That's not correct. Monsey Trails has sex-segregated buses. It's not enforced by the bus company; passengers bring a curtain and put it up.

One day, my wife, who is not Jewish, and I, will ride together on a Monsey Trails bus.

If the bus driver, or any passenger, tries to separate us, we will both kick the living crap out of him.

[harold]

I can say categorically that no public bus line in New York City or anywhere in the United States has sex segregation.

True, we are in Galus. The only place for Jews to live in is Israel. Whether you believe in the laws of tznius or not the fact that there is even an issue involving “kosher busses” is a thing of beauty since the debate is on Jewish issues. It is rather naïve to not acknowledge that there is a problem if men and women are squeezed together on a crowded standing room only bus that issues of tznius are involved. What if your wife was on a crowded bus and Rabbi (Whipple) Tropper was standing within squeezing distance from her, you too would wish that the bus was segregated?

Leshana Haba B'Yerushalayim!

[who knows]

Harold,

Neither debate nor coersion used by haredim to pull this through look particularily "beautiful" or Jewish for me.

What is particularily Jewish about gender separated buses? Muslims have it in many countries.

[critical minyan]

to save time, they should make all boys younger than 16 take off their pants before they get on the bus. That way the misognynstic, pent-up, sexually frustrated charedim, can just enjoy their pedophilic selves without pretense.

[Mr. Apikorus]

What if I were on a crowded sex-segregated bus and a gay rabbi squeezed my Eiere? (There are gay rabbis, you know, or should know from reading this blog.)

I'd wish I were on a regular bus, because if a woman grabbed my crotch, I'd probably enjoy it.

[harold]

What is particularily Jewish about gender separated buses? Muslims have it in many countries

What is Jewish about it is that it is being done for Jewish reasons. As to the Muslims they are doing it for Muslim reasons so there is no conflict here. If the people involved are doing it for religious reasons and this is what the people want then I see no problems with it. When I get on a bus what interests me is getting a seat, I have no preference as to the back or the front. What could be an issue is if a women, for example, gets on a bus and the women's section has no seats and there are seats in the men’s section then I can see someone complaining. What they should have is a movable partition to handle this scenario. What is best is no partition, just men to the front and women to the back (or vice versa).

Maybe these busses should charge moe and not be allowed to get to the standing room only point. If they run out of seats then accept no more passengers.

[Mr. Apikorus]

What's best is open seating. You sit whereever you can find a seat. Otherwise, you grab a pole and stand.

[jay]

IMO, if it's a private company, they can do whatever they please. If they choose, for example, to have a section devoted to livestock (assuming it's not against they law) then it's nobody's business. However if this is a public bus company or receives any state funding, that's a different issue. Just because the label "a jewish reason' is attached to something doesn't make it right.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Not true (in the United States). If it accepts the general public (i.e. one can go to the ticket window at the Port Authority Bus Terminal and buy a ticket), then it can't discriminate in any way. (Nor can it accept livestock, even if they're paying customers.)

[A E ANDERSON]

CONTAIN HAREDISM NOW!
Jewish Haredism, like Islamism, is a religious cancer that must be contained via restrictive laws lest it infect the broader public.

At issue is not religious freedom. Haredim and Muslims are free to believe and worship how they wish. It is the propensity inherent in their triumphalist tendencies that leads them to impose themselves and their odd, repressive practices on others.

There is no difference between the burka and the compulsorily segregated autobus. Soon, there will be haredi مطوعين roaming Dizengoff and crying "צניות, שבת and who knows what next.

THIS IS A HOLY WAR FOR FREEDOM FROM RELIGION! TEL AVIV IS THE LAST BASTION IN THE JEWISH HOMELAND AGAINST THE CULT OF NEO-ORTHODOXY THAT IS INEXORABLY INFECTING JEWISH COMMUNITIES AROUND IN ISRAEL AND WORLDWIDE!

YAEL DAYAN: DO NOT LET TEL AVIV BECOME A BENE BERAQ, A QUM OR A RIYADH!! REVOKE THIS BUS' LICENSE FORTHWITH!

[A E ANDERSON]

A letter submitted to Hon. Ron Huldai, Mayor of Tel Aviv-Jaffa:

Your Honour, The Mayor of Tel Avi-Jaffa

Dear Sir:

I was dismayed to read about attempts by extremists to operate a discriminatory autobus line that forcibly segregates men from women in accord with their strange, neo-Orthodox practice.

As a visitor to Tel Aviv, I cherish Tel Aviv's universalism and its position at the very centre of Israel's culture. Please do not allow creeping haredism to turn Tel Aviv into another Bene Beraq, Riyadh or Qom.

I urge you and your colleagues, including Ms. Yael Dayan, to revoke the autobus' license forthwith, and send the looney tunes packing back to their self-selected ghettos of medieval darkness and repression in Bene Beraq and elsewhere.

Please don't allow the haredi medievalists to take over our Tel Aviv!

Sincerely,

A E ANDERSON

[jay]

@apikorus, the article isn't about the United States.

[Mr. Apikorus]

I know that. I was responding to Scott Salbo, who said that there is no sex segregation on public buses in the USA.

As for Israel, a private company can't do just as it pleases any more than it can here, although it seems as though the feckless idiots in the Knesset are giving the Haredim a pass on this one.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Private companies with 'private' arrangements with willing passengers are still not allowed to violate federal law. All you need is one person to file a lawsuit.

[jay]

In the USA they are considered places of 'public accommodation' so they can't discriminate. Segregation is considered discrimination, obviously. Israel's fractured parliamentary system, however, allows abuse of the political process to create a theocracy.

[harold]

One day, my wife, who is not Jewish, and I, will ride together on a Monsey Trails bus.

If the bus driver, or any passenger, tries to separate us, we will both kick the living crap out of him

Please, keep us posted.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Are you volunteering to be the kickee, Harold?

By the way, Federal law states that a passenger can go to prison for assaulting a bus driver IN THE LEGAL PERFORMANCE OF HIS DUTIES. This, however, would be no more legal than a bus driver insisting that a black passenger step to the rear of the bus.

My bet would be that the Monsey Trails driver would avoid confrontation and a lawsuit that he and his company would certainly lose. Don't know about you, though.

[harold]

Are you volunteering to be the kickee, Harold?

No, just curious as to what actually happens rather than what you fantasize what will happen.

[ah-pee-chorus]

A E ANDERSON - well said. it is completely unacceptable for there to be anything other than complete equality on any public transportation in a free democratic country. once again the haredim wish to treat everything as if israel is a theocracy. IT IS NOT and hopefully never will be. their desire to force their religion on others while complaining of their lack of religious freedom is the height of hypocrisy. and of course freedom OF religion necessarily includes freedom FROM religion. just as the founding fathers of USA also intended.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Just what do you think would happen if my wife and I rode a Monsey Trails bus while sitting together, Harold?

You think a NY State Trooper would taser us if we refused to sit separately? Especially if TV crews were on the scene, or if we had somebody (an accomplice) videotaping the incident?

The United States isn't Israel, dork, and we can thank God for that.

[Dr. Dave]

As a New Yorker, and a totally secular Jew (how can any Jew continue to believe and worship that biblical monstrosity)

Scott, being a completely secular Jew should not also make you completely rude.

Do not insult people who believe in the bible and their G-d (not only Jew, but Christian and Muslim as well).

Secularist Jews, like their believing Orthodox, Conservative, Reform etc. bretheren are a small minority in a big world that tried to wipe us out within the last century.

We need to learn to co-exist. Not insult one another (of course this applies to Chareidim who insult their secular brothers as well).

[Abracadabra]

The whole thing is a religiously sanctioned way of demeening women and keeping them "barefoot and pregnant" i.e., the "lesser" gender. It's disgusting and makes me want to puke.

Why don't the MEN sit in the back?!?! If you think the symbolism is not intentional, think again. Remember, in the USA the blacks - who were discriminated against - had to sit in the back. I am certain that is why on Monsey trails the "voluntary" curtain is put up through the center of the bus. If Monsey Trails would send women to the back of the bus, someone would have filed a lawsuit years ago as it smells too much like what Rosa Parks fought against.

The excuse in Israel for why women have to sit in the back is that they often have strollers with lots of kids in tow and supposedly there is more room in the back. That's baloney. Go to Israel and ride a bus and you'll see how it works. IF they have strollers they get ONTO the bus via the door towards the back because that door is wider. They then move with the stroller and kids to the first available set of seats. If the men where confined to the back, BEHIND the section of the door towards the back, there would be plenty of room for the men to sit there, in the back. Besides, the women with all their kids take up a whole lot more space than the men do. Men, of course, have better things to do than take care of children (and work to support the family). Men have to learn Gemara all day which teaches them how lowly women are - the same women who work to support them, run the household, take care of the children and are made to sit in the BACK of the bus and know their place in the Chareidi hierarchy.

If Chareidi society does not grow up in Israel, there will be a civil war.

[Abracadabra]

Mr. Apikorus, I, too would like to know what happens when you and your wife instigate a riot on a Monsey Trails bus. Will you be getting tips from James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles on how to pull it off? ;)

I would warn you though - the chassidim in New York have mafia-like tactics that they use to silence and intimidate their detractors. You may need to go into hiding after you pull off such a stunt if you want to live to see the outcome of any related lawsuits.

[A. Nuran]

It's all in how you do it.
Beat up the bus driver? Bad.
Sit together and refuse to be separated? Good.
Sit together, refuse to be separated and quote the public accomodations laws. Nice.
Get assaulted by the passengers or driver and record it? Better.
Get videoed being assaulted by the passengers or driver after peacefully saying you refuse to be separated? Pure public relations gold, my friends.
Get assaulted as above and defend your wife once she has been hurt by the Tallitban? Doesn't get much better than that.

[Mr. Apikorus]

This matter was already litigated, and the upshot was that Monsey Trails is barred from enforcing any sex separation rules. So if a bus driver tries to physically throw us off a bus, we just will be defending ourselves.

Fifty years ago, a large majority of Southern whites might have thought Rosa Parks was instigating a riot. That's tough.

Freedom and liberty cannot be taken for granted, but must be constantly defended.

[Mr. Apikorus]

That's basically my game plan, A. Nuran.

But if the passengers or the driver assaults us, we fight back (with everything videotaped).

That's the best of all.

[harold]

Just what do you think would happen if my wife and I rode a Monsey Trails bus while sitting together, Harold?

Nothing.

[Abracadabra]

Mr. Apikorus,

And if you walk onto the bus with your wife dressed "immodestly", whoohooo! That'll get the zealots going for sure!

And, remember to put your arm around her. Even better, do it while they are screaming at both of you. They can't stand public "negiya" (touching). But don't go kissing on the bus, because they can claim that to be public lewdness or other such crap. Just a basic arm around the shoulder or arm around the waist. And/or hold hands.

I can't wait to see the tapes! I just wanna see their faces, even if they don't say anything, their eyes will be popping out of their sockets.

But they will react.

Harold, you're gonna be wrong on this one. You don't know what kind of hooligans they are. Live in the Chasidish section of Monsey for a few weeks and you'll see.

But again, I warn you Apikorus, they use mafia tactics. Be wary. Be very wary of your safety after all is said and done.

[t]

Mr. Apikorus. as a monsey bus driver for many years i can assure you that me or any of my co-driver care less if ur wife sits on ur lap they wont even turn back and look at you as long as you paid and as far as the other passengers the might give u the look or say something but its 2010 no1 hits or barley shouts on a bus

[A E ANDERSON]

To my letter to Tel Aviv's Hizonner, Ron Huldai, I today received the following email reply from one Michal Raupman of the Tel Aviv Municipality:

"from פניות ציבור - לשכת ראש העירייה
sender time Sent at 05:01 (GMT+03:00). Current time there: 02:32. ✆
subject הפרדת נשים וגברים באוטובוסים‎(174077)‎
mailed-by mail.tel-aviv.gov.il

בתשובה נא להזכיר את פניה מספר 174077
ההודעה נשלחה על ידי מיכל ראופמן

22 April 2010

Dear Mr. Anderson

Herewith we confirm your inquiry dated 1\4\10 regarding the topic man and woman separation in public transport.
We would like to inform you that the authorization to make changes in the public transport is in the hands of the ministry of transport.

These changes include operating new lines, changes of existing lines as well as the topic you have discussed in your inquiry.

Therefore we have forwarded a copy of your inquiry to the ministry of transport.

We are grateful for your involvement and stand at your disposal at any time.

Best regards "