More Orthodox Jews Abandon Kitniyot Ban, Rabbis Say

"Eating kitniyot during the holiday is the true custom of our forefathers in the holy land. Rice was even included on the Seder plates of antiquity.”

Machon Shilo institute says more Orthodox Jews abandoning practice of abstaining from eating beans and pulses during Passover
Ynetnews

A group of rabbis has announced that more Orthodox Jews are abandoning the practice of abstaining from eating kitniyot (beans and pulses) during the Passover holiday.

Rabbi David Bar-Hayim, head of the Machon Shilo institute, notes with satisfaction that the organization is frequently cited as having an impact on people’s decisions.

“Each year I am contacted by an increasing number of people who inform me that they are no longer adhering to the ban on eating kitniyot,” says Rabbi Bar-Hayim. “They thank me for the permit to eat kitniyot and for providing clear halachic insight that makes Torah Judaism relevant for thinking people.”

Rabbi Bar-Hayim uses sources in the Mishnah and Gemara to demonstrate that customs are connected to the place where one resides and are not simply packed up like household items to be relocated in a new place of residence.

'Torah sages can err'
The original kitniyot ban was for the Jews of Ashkenaz, or the Rhineland,” he notes.

“It was probably erroneous for these Jews to take this custom with them to other areas like the United States where there was no local custom, and certainly erroneous for them to bring it to the Land of Israel where the practice throughout the ages was to eat kitniyot.

"Eating kitniyot during the holiday is the true custom of our forefathers in the holy land. Rice was even included on the Seder plates of antiquity.”

Rabbi Bar-Hayim continues, “It’s okay that Torah sages can err. Even the Sanhedrin could err as is mentioned explicitly in the Torah. Mistakes can occur regarding kitniyot or about building emergency health facilities in Ashkelon. The halachic framework can be used as a framework for a Torah-based solution.

"As we recently read in the weekly Torah portion (Leviticus 4:13), errors were rectified by bringing a sacrifice to the Temple. May we soon merit to rebuild the Temple and bring sacrifices, for the Pesach offering and for the errors we’ve made along the way, whether forbidding foods that were not forbidden or preventing the construction of a hospital emergency room for the sake of ancient pagan graves that can be respectfully relocated.”

Comments

[Maskil]

Rabbi Bar-Hayim continues, “It’s okay that Torah sages can err...”

So, this "rabbi" thinks he's the first guy in a thousand years to read the Talmud (re: rice being used on Pesach)? He is so full of himself as he takes credit for each Ashkenazi he "helps" in getting over this tradition, about whose practice no doubt ever existed (about the reasons or rationale maybe - but that would be true for about everything in Mosaic Law). And then he has the gaul to presume expertise in when to carry a custom while traveling to the point that he likens the instructions of gedolei ashkenaz for a millenium to be equal to the errant instructions in Horayoth.

Bar-Hayim's words and actions are inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life.

[yechiel]

By the way it's QITNIYOTH according to previous blogs. It's meant to show intelligence when you transliterate like Franks... even though one might be of Ashkenazi decent. Go figure.

[Maskil]

...like Franks...

There is no reason for racial slurs on this blog.

[al Farabi]

If more rabbis had the courage of Bar-Hayim, perhaps our religion wouldn't be the pathetic joke that it is

[Robert Wisler]

Maskil wrote:
And then he has the gaul to presume expertise

I ask:
What is the meaning of the word "gaul"? I believe that you meant "gall"?

[PishPosh]

Finally! Maybe Mashiach is coming and bringing Cholent for Pesach.

Now when can we start talking about this ridiculous 2 set of dishes and draconic rules about meat and milk that the Torah never intended.

[R]

If potatoes had been found when they made the kitniot laws, then i think all ashkenazim would be forced to only eat matzah all pesach. Bring on the laxatives.

[Pierre]

al Farabi; Bar hayim is a Kachnik with a world of anti-gentile eccentric ideas and ideals right in lock step with the charedim, this takes a few seconds on the internet to find; that he's 'pro-kitnyot' kashers him no more than the fact that R. Ovadiah Yosef is lenient on many occasions regarding abortion kashers HIM.

[harold]

I always thought that the eating of kitniyot was one of following the minhag of your parents rather than one of whether one is allowed to eat it or not.

[Yisroel Pensack]

"...he has the gaul [sic] to presume expertise in when to carry a custom while traveling..."

Posted by: Maskil | April 01, 2010 at 12:36 AM

This is what the article actually said:

The original kitniyot ban was for the Jews of Ashkenaz, or the Rhineland,” he notes.

“It was probably erroneous for these Jews to take this custom with them to other areas like the United States where there was no local custom, and certainly erroneous for them to bring it to the Land of Israel where the practice throughout the ages was to eat kitniyot."

He clearly was not referring here to traveling on vacation but to relocating to a new place of residence. Furthermore, he does indeed "presume" to have such expertise in Jewish law, because he describes himself as a rav and an av beis din.

This sounds like a threat: "Bar-Hayim's words and actions are inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life."

[nobody]

Clearly, the "attackers" here, once again spewing their venom, are ignorant of the SOURCES. It is SOURCES which Rabbi Bar Hayim and any rabbi speaking about this issue bases himself on. The ad hominem an ignorance exhibited in comments like "this tradition, about whose practice no doubt ever existed " make the commenter look quite foolish.

Obviously the sons and grandsons of Rashi did not have a doubt about this practice because they permitted and ate qitniyot. So how did we go from "no doubt it's permitted" to "no doubt it's forbidden?" Only in the world of blatant ignorance.

[Maskil]

Robert Wisler,

Yes, gall (I assume). No one had the gall to teach me how to spell when I was growing up.

Yisroel Pensack,

Interesting, when Shmarya had the same to say about a different rabbi no one thought of it as a threat, or even out of the ordinary.

[william e emba]

Oh come on everybody. "Gaul" was a brilliant pun inspired by "Frank".

Frankly, with my full schedule of matzoh meal latkes, pesach pizza, and hamburger indulgences to fill out the week, I've never noticed the lack of kitnios in my Pesach diet. I do have a family minhag to eat peanuts (which I was told must be 100% raw unroasted in the shell), so some years I squeeze in a little extra homemade peanut butter. Anyone else remember when peanut oil was available for Pesach?

Which reminds me. What happened to walnut oil this year?

Here's a question that almost no rabbi knows the answer to. At what time should an Ashkenazi stop eating kitnios erev Pesach, and why?

[Shmarya]

That depends on several things, but the short answer would be from the time of either hatzot or mincha gedola, and the reason is that you should be hungry for matza and the other seder food at the seder.

[william e emba]

That's not an answer, Shmarya. That's for the question of when to stop eating too much, not when to stop eating a particular kind of food, no matter how small.

[Shmarya]

Then your question is not optimally phrased.

The answer to your question is, I believe, a few minutes before candle lighting.

But having said that, I'm sure there are rabbis who hold the time is the same for kitniyot and hametz.

[Ma Rabbi]

We stop eating Kitniot the same time we stop eating chometz acccording to Shulchan Aruch.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Chai Adam wanted to ban potatoes as qitnyot, but was rejected. Potatoes were all some poor Ashkenazim had to eat.

[william e emba]

Optimal phrasing? My question was completely obvious. We are prohibiting from eating chametz at the fourth hour, even in trace amounts. When are we prohibited from eating kitnios, even in trace amounts? Possible answers are fourth hour, khatsos, candle lighting, acceptance of yomtov, shkiah itself.

It's a very practical question when Erev Pesach is Shabbos. We don't have barley in our cholent then, but perhaps beans? Nobody does that, of course, but maybe they should.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Yisroel Pensack,

...when Shmarya had the same to say about a different rabbi no one thought of it as a threat, or even out of the ordinary.

Posted by: Maskil | April 01, 2010 at 08:22 AM

Maskil: Please cite the exact quote by Shmarya you have in mind so we can compare it with your previous statement above that the rabbi "needs to be removed from public life" and also provide the link so we can see the context as well.

[Maskil]

Yisroel,

Past that, what Elon did is still inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life.

william,

Very astute. I would later comment on the insensitivity of the use of the term "Frank" (a derogatory term for a person of Sephardic origin), which can also imply French (as in Franco-German), while the misspelled word "gaul" means a Frenchman or the geographocal area of France.

Ma Rabbi,

One who follows Bar-Hayim too holds that one stops eating kitniyot when he stops eating "according to the Shulchan Aruch." :)

[Maskil]

[Ma Rabbi: Never mind, that doesn't make any sense. I read what you wrote and the thought jumped into my mind that when one stops adhering to the prohibition of eating kitniyot he stops eating in accordance with the Shulchan Aruch.]

BTW: Anyone with a minhag regarding the ownership or sight of kitniyot? Growing up we owned and left kitniyot in plane view during Pesach, we just didn't eat it. And I mean even food products that were not certified kosher for Pesach, just that they had no chametz or concern for chametz and their lack of kosher for Pesach label was due only to the kitniyot. Does anyone do differently?

[jay]

One can benefit from the use of kitniyot and can eat in the home of someone who eats kitniyot on pesach; even eating from dishes upon which kitniyot have been served.

[Ma Rabbi]

reply to jay and Maskil
There is no prohibition of having kitneyos in your possesion on Pesach. We are only prohibited from eating them. Ashkenazim who are careful do NOT eat in the homes of those who cook kitneyos in their pots.

[jjghfg]

Maskil, you're pretty conservative for someone with that appellation.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Maskil: According to this article, "Rabbi Bar-Hayim uses sources in the Mishnah and Gemara to demonstrate that customs are connected to the place where one resides and are not simply packed up like household items to be relocated in a new place of residence." The article quotes the rabbi as saying, “Each year I am contacted by an increasing number of people who inform me that they are no longer adhering to the ban on eating kitniyot.” He says, “They thank me for the permit to eat kitniyot...”

You wrote, "Bar-Hayim's words and actions are inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life." I wrote: "This sounds like a threat." You complained: "...when Shmarya had the same to say about a different rabbi no one thought of it as a threat, or even out of the ordinary."

In response to my request, you provided Shmarya's previous comment that said, "...what Elon did is still inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life." Shmarya was replying to a commenter who wrote: "He isnt a pervert, he isn't an exploiter and he isn't a pervert, just a gay or Bi rabbi who quietly indulged his 'weaknesses' once in a while."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/03/police-to-close-case-against-rabbi-mordechai-elon-123.html?cid=6a00d83451b71f69e201310fc6b152970c#comment-6a00d83451b71f69e201310fc6b152970c

Maskil, can you cite "sources in the Mishnah and Gemara to demonstrate that" Elon's alleged conduct is halachically acceptable for an Orthodox rabbi to engage in and that he should not be removed from public life?

Exactly where is the halachic or moral equivalence -- other than in your mind -- between between such conduct and allowing kitniyot to be eaten on Pesach?

[maven]

Yisroel, it depends what kitnityot is being used as a euphemism for... :)

[william e emba]

There is no prohibition of having kitneyos in your possesion on Pesach. We are only prohibited from eating them. Ashkenazim who are careful do NOT eat in the homes of those who cook kitneyos in their pots.

I've been told that the prohibition on kitniyos is so extremely weak, that as an example, if an Ashkenaz man marries a Sephardic woman, then the couple can and should eat at her parents' home. Neither is allowed to eat kitniyos, but if they are served a bean cholent, they simply eat around the beans.

But unless there's a similarly strong mitzvah as kavod av/im to consider, Ashkenazi do not eat off of kitniyosdik utensils. (My peanuts, for example, do not ever touch my Pesach dishes.)

Similarly, if your uxorial in-laws are Yemenites, you can eat all year around the locusts in their locust cholent. And people who don't eat turkey can and do eat off of "turkeyed" dishes.

The common methods involved in accomodating non-gebrokt sons-in-law are ridiculous. I've heard of accounts of off-the-derech hasidim--during Pesach they'll eat bread, but get their matzos wet? Never.

Another issue for people who need more chumros than everybody else is to worry about the status during/after Pesach of kitniyosdik processed foods. That box of frozen peas--OF COURSE it doesn't have a pesachdik hechsher. Can you assume it's not really chometz? Heh heh.

[william e emba]

We stop eating Kitniot the same time we stop eating chometz acccording to Shulchan Aruch.

In my years of asking, exactly one Rav told me that. All the others hemmed and hawed.

[Maskil]

Yisroel,

a) If I worked at it I could probably cite sources taken obnoxious out of context.

b) Just because this bogus rabbi quoted the Talmud doesn't mean there is any legitimacy to what he said. Reform did it in the 1800s, and Conservative does it now. Islamic extremists, le-havdil, quote the Talmud too. The gedolei ashkenaz where well aware, in fact, far more acutely aware of all the sources he "cites" and they did not deny their existance.

c) So, you are still taking what I wrote about Bar-Hayim being "inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and he needs to be removed from public life" as a threat? So you took Shmarya's words re: Elon as a threat as well? Yeah, uhuh, if you choose to morally justify threatening or inciting violence against Elon as apposed to this kitniyot advocating dude then I wouldn't challenge your personal assessment in making that distinction - even though I would strongly disagree with your position. I, however, meant no threat and no incitement, but simply that a. his behavior is inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and b. he needs to be removed from public life. By non-violent means, of course.

[jay]

Ma Rabbi, Ashkenazim are not forbidden to eat in the homes or on the dishes of those who do eat kitniyot. It's not a matter of being 'careful' as you state. Refusing to eat in the homes of those who use kitniyot is not only unnecessary, it causes needles separation within the community and can potentially embarrass people. Rather then careful, call it foolish.

[libby in the hood]

Beans are great! They are a cheap source of nourishment, can be prepared in a thousand different ways, are low fat etc...My question to the Chabidniks out there, what's with the matzah condoms you guys use so the matzah won't get on the floor? I find it extremely weird.

[Ma Rabbi]

reply to william e emba
The source for stopping to eat kitniyos the same time we stop eating chometz is found in Chok Leyakov 471:2 as brought down by the great Gaon Rav Wosner in his sefer Shevat Halevi

[Yisroel Pensack]

Maskil: Exactly what is your objection to eating kitniyot on Pesach?

[Maskil]

Yisroel, the objection is simply that it is prohibited by Judean law to those upon whom the prohibition took hold when it developed, i.e. Ashkenazim. The violation of this, well, that is a very minor one. But Pesach is also the only time that halachah allows no limit on stringencies (for various philosophical reasons based on the nature of Pesach and of its respective prohibitions). If the Sanhedrin were to end the prohibition of kitniyot today I would support that move, but I would also support them if they saw to extend it to all Jews for whatever reason they would have (even if I severely disagreed with their logic), for the Sanhedrin has the power to disassemble or enact a prohibition of this magnitude. I object vociferously however to a man who publicly campaigns for Ashkenazim to drop their custom and violate the standing prohibition, all in the name of the Talmud and by using the title "rabbi," and who relishes in his success of each new defector based on the "permission" he has declared. This man is choteh u'machati et ha-rabim, he himself transgresses through preaching erroneous explanations of Torah and causes the public to sin by presuming an authority he does not have and actively pursuing a public campaign of dismantling the infrastructure of Jewish law.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Maskil, I suggest you check into all of the sources available on this subject. You will learn that this minhag was fought - by other Ashkenazim - before the ink was dry on the paper. A foolish custom does not require a Sanhedrin to halt compliance. In any case, it clear that it's happening: the OU launched a major attack on the issue in their Pesach publications. This is an indication that they are seeing cracks in the armor - the people are starting to ask questions for which they don't have good answers to offer, so they turn up the volume of the rhetoric.

[Maskil]

I know that it didn't come into full force in one day, but receiving the Torah today there it is in full effect. Rome was not built in one day either, but here it is and one would have to be a fool (or, apparently, a Haredi gadol who has no encyclopedia or access to topographical information) to deny its existence.

Should the community at large derelict its obligation it may well change from prohibition to imperative (i.e. to eat kitniyot), one of the stranger paradoxes of minhagim in halachah - that by mass violation of an edict or a custom the custom or edict falls from its status, and moreover, the new behavior turns to minhag and a custom of Israel is Torah and this Torah shall never be changed. That's how, despite the prohibitions against wearing the clothing styles of the Gentiles we ended up with our current clothing - transgression turned to Israelite style and then Israelite custom and then Torah which may never be substituted (obviously, time and time again). I know, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews already eat kitniyot on Pesach, I'm not an expert in how these changes work, but there are true experts and they take everything into account and would rule in contrast has the changeover already transpired. (But a carte blanche elimination of the prohibition is not in the power of this "rabbi" or anyone today - not even R' Elyashiv, but only the Sanhedrin itself.)

And if that happens it would be nice, I'd feel better about it and national consciousness could be more focused on the more fundamental issues rather than why we can't eat corn (because it has the same name previously known for wheat) or why garlic is included in the kitniyot category, should we peel tomatoes and can we use processed sugar if we boil it first? Really, I don't think the educated Jews of today have the mental capacity to dwell on these questions, or to process them without discarding (what they consider to be) the baby with (what they consider to be) the bathwater. The original Reform rabbis (before the Pittsburgh Platform), reading their teshuvot one can plainly see that they were by far more capacitated and intellectually mature to deal with these questions. It is a shame that their level of learning has been lost from the majority of Jewish scholars and left to the (despotically perceived) Haredi gedolim alone.

[nobody]

"(My peanuts, for example, do not ever touch my Pesach dishes.)"

Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer, after he made aliyah to the Land of Israel, reported that back in Russia (Belarus today), when guests would come over during the Hag of Pesach, the custom was to put out peanuts for the guests. Specifically the snack of choice for setting out for guests in their home was PEANUTS. Which proves that they were not considered kitniyot or forbidden in any way. So what can we conclude about the yeshivot and roshei yeshivot of Slutsk, Slabodka, Mir, Velozhin, etc....

Peanuts are not kitniyot, even if kitniyot was forbidden.

[nobody]

Maskil, you wrote: "a. his behavior is inappropriate for an Orthodox rabbi, and b. he needs to be removed from public life. By non-violent means, of course.
"

Maskil, you are a fascist. You are basically saying, since you don't like what he says and what he concludes from the sources, he must be "removed" from his position. Perhaps you should instead try to explain why his position is wrong? Oh, that's right, you can't. You instead operate on childish assumptions. And you treat these assumptions as "the gospel" which Rav Bar Hayim, much more learned than you and knowledable of the sources than you, disagrees with.

[Abracadabra]

I don't know about you folks, but I had a childhood friend who at other times in the year would eat by my house, but on pesach did not "mish" and wouldn't even take a drink of water in a paper cup in my home. Even as a kid I saw it as weird and insulting.

I mish.

[Abracadabra]

Hey - Yochanan Lavie - (or anyone else with a creative bent) you could make a song with the "Mish" theme based on "The Monster Mash" - an old rock-n-roll song from the 50's!

[william e emba]

Peanuts are not kitniyot, even if kitniyot was forbidden.

In fact, as a BT brought up on PB&J on matzoh, I assumed it was not really a family minhag, but I asked, not really seriously, the first Rav who visited the Chabad I was involved with at the time. Since he worked for OU kashrus and had been a talmid of Rav Moshe, I was going to accept his din no matter what. I was familiar with Rav Moshe's ruling that those who had the peanut tradition may/should continue to keep it. To my surprise--I was expecting him to tell me that ignorance doesn't make for minhag avoseinu--the Rav launched into a tirade that peanuts are legumes, not kitniyos, they didn't even exist as a plant 200 years ago, etc etc.

OK, I could live with that.

Someday I'll get distinctive dishes, maybe even a little table, just for my homemade PB & store-bought J on matzah sandwiches. The plan is either P-for-Penn or P-for-Princeton dishes/table. And then hide them from guests who might think the P-is-for-Pesach.

[william e emba]

I'll take seriously Ashkenazim who claim we aren't obligated in kitniyos today if they agree that turkey should be forbidden out of doubt.

It's always tempting to argue that something forbidden on rather flimsy grounds should just be made permitted. It's never tempting to forbid the widely accepted that is permitted on even flimsier grounds.

[yechiel]

Just one question:
Why stop at customs supported by acharonim? Why don't we go after the source? Were chaz"l correct with their interpretation of the Torah? And who did Rashi think he was? Yeah and while we're at it let's attack the rest of the rishonim who followed suit!
So you see once you start tampering with minhag etc. and rely on your perception of correct/incorrect where do you draw the line?
Chag sameach and refuah sheleima to all spiritually week.

[Yakira]

The prohibition of qitniyos is really trivial, stupid, and not based on ancient Jewish traditions. Once again, some overly zealous, pious individuals wanted to make a name for themselves and overstepped their boundaries by manipulating halakhic laws. It is past time that MO rabbis seek to abolish such trivial rules.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I'll take seriously Ashkenazim who claim we aren't obligated in kitniyos today if they agree that turkey should be forbidden out of doubt.

Apples and Oranges, or in this case, Qitniyoth (custom adopted by some, acknowledged by all to not be an issue of eating hamets in modern times) and Hodu (question of d'Orita status of a kosher animal), are not the same.

To complete your attempted equivalency, however, I'll note that at a recent OU presentation, the first part dealt with various Pesach issues including "kitnios" and the second part was a great presentation by an OU rabbi on the kashruth of birds. Once you understand that the determination of "species" in halakhik terms isn't completely the same as in scientific terms, turkey appears without issue from my understanding.

[nobody]

"Just one question:
Why stop at customs supported by acharonim? Why don't we go after the source? Were chaz"l correct with their interpretation of the Torah? "

Do you ask this question on the Chacham Tzvi who fought against the ban of kitniyot and sought to abolish it? Do you ask this question on the many many rishonim who argued against the practice and ruled halacha lemaaseh that one does not hold by it as a minhag? Were they also attacking chazal? Of course not. They were using logic and common sense.

No one argues that the Talmud concludes that rice is permitted on Pesach. It is clearly a mistake that developed later on, in which people became confused about what is permitted and what is not, that SOME ashkenazi rabbis ruled against the obvious conclusion of the Talmud. Those who did not go along with this "minhag shtuth" (Rabenu Yeruham's words, not mine), certainly were not attacking chazal or interpretations of Torah. They were upholding chazal and the final ruling of Talmud which stems from chazal and chazal's understanding of the grains which are forbidden on pesah.

[Maskil]

No one argues that the Talmud concludes that rice is permitted on Pesach. It is clearly a mistake that developed later on...

You are right, any moron can see that rice was fine and even sometimes customary during the time of the Talmud.

Do you literally think that the rabbis during the period in which the prohibiion of kitniyot developed did not know how to read Hebrew and Aramaic? If this is the case you should not be allowed to think. Thinking should be a controlled privelage for which a license is required.

[nobody]

"Do you literally think that the rabbis during the period in which the prohibiion of kitniyot developed did not know how to read Hebrew and Aramaic? "

Did I say that? Obviously not. Your reading comprehension fails miserably. All the authorities agreed on the conclusion of the gemara. By saying they agreed with the obvious conclusion of the gemara, that by necessity includes them possessing the ability to read and understand that Talmud, or else they would have no opinion at all and would not be considered an authority. Or, if they couldn't read and understand, they would try to disagree with what is plain to all other authorities, which they did not attempt to do. So being that no one attempted this, it is clear that the authorities knew how to read and understand Talmud. That is what made them authorities.

You fail to understand the issue at the heart of this matter.

Those rabbis who enacted the prohibition understood the Talmudic discussion which included the fact that rice was permitted and customary, as you yourself acknowledge. And that is precisely the problem. Their "enaction" goes against the conclusion of the Talmud - a no-no for Orthodox Judaism and especially the learning style of the European world.

The reasons behind this innovative stringency range from utterly mistaken to inapplicable at best.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the baalei tosafot, the Rosh, the Tur, and many other rishonim permit kitniyot on Pesach? Have you ever read the actual sources which state the inane reasons for this custom?

In some cases, the rabbis mistakenly attributed rice and kitniyot as a "minor form of Chametz!" Every authority today unanimously agrees that that idea is mistaken. Yet this seems to not only underline the chumrah's origin as the earliest explanation, but other explanations as well (which only came after the fact in order to explain/justify the already existing practice) have no relevance to today's reality for an assortment of reasons. Including the fact that this was a chumrah established in Europe.

[Isaac Simchon]

Maskil, you wrote: "(But a carte blanche elimination of the prohibition is not in the power of this "rabbi" or anyone today - not even R' Elyashiv, but only the Sanhedrin itself.)"

You do realize you have contradicted yourself...
About 700 years ago, the Ramma and his colleagues ruled against eating kitniyot on Pesach. What gave them the right to make such an extreme ruling WHEN THERE WAS NO SANHEDRIN IN ASHKENAZ (Germany, France, Russia, etc)???

Also, from where do we learn that their ruling was infinite? What if they ruled against kitniyot temporary, until better (food) quality control was available...?

I happen to be a Talmid of Rav Bar-Hayim, and that made a positive impact in my Jewish life. You dare say - and I quote: "(choteh u'machati et ha-rabim, he himself transgresses through preaching erroneous explanations of Torah and causes the public to sin by presuming an authority he does not have and actively pursuing a public campaign of dismantling the infrastructure of Jewish law.)"
I disagree. Rav Bar-Hayim teaches the Torah like it is. He encourage people to ASK QUESTIONS and not just accept what some other "bogus" rabbis say... We cannot follow a (questionable) ruling blindly just because a Rabbi says you have to. WE HAVE TO ASK QUESTIONS, AND RECEIVE SATISFYING ANSWERS. If a rabbi answers your question but his answer isn't satisfactory, you don't have to listen to him. And I don't mean halachic ruling given by Hazal/Sanhedrin - like "Why in Chutz La'Aretz (outside the land of Israel) we celebrate 2 days instead on one?...and etc."

[Isaac Simchon]

To sums things up, I personally feel that all these talk about kitniyot has separated us from what's really important about Pesach. The real reason we celebrate Pesach is because we are no longer slaves in Egypt. We celebrate this Chag because Hashem himself kept his promise to our forefathers Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov. and took us out of Egypt. From slavery to freedom, from darkness to light and from bitterness to happiness.

"VeSamachta BeChagecha" (You shall rejoice in your holiday). This is what Pesach is all about.

If people wish to eat Kitniyot on Pesach, they can. Just like YOU can refrain from eating kitniyot. Why make trouble?

and Maskil, being removed from public life is an actual threat. "Life = living or to live" (look it up, its in the dictionary). You should be a bit more careful with the words you choose. Everybody is entitled to have and listen to their Rav. If your rav tells you that you cannot eat kitniyot and you respect his words, you will do as he says. I respect my rav greatly, just as I respect other rabbis.

If you look inside the Talmud, in almost every page rabbis argued with one another. There are 70 "Panim L'Torah" (ways of explaining/understanding the Torah), and each rav with his explanation is respected among the Tanaim and Amoraim.

Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai did not always see eye to eye, however, they respected one another, and never did one say to the other: "He should be removed from public life"...

A penny for your thought ;-)

Enjoy the rest of the Chag.

Kol Tuv,

Isaac Simchon

[william e emba]

To complete your attempted equivalency, however,

I made no attempt at an equivalency. Turkey was simply the first widely accepted unjustifiable leniency that popped into my head.

I'll note that at a recent OU presentation, the first part dealt with various Pesach issues including "kitnios" and the second part was a great presentation by an OU rabbi on the kashruth of birds.

And I learned my information about turkey from an OU kashrus rabbi who personally gave up turkey after he researched the issue for the OU. He said he was pressured to not publish his study. Among other things, he tracked down apparently all known early teshuvos on turkey, and how they started out universally against it, and then granted very limited exceptions, and eventually started giving reasons that simply did not hold up under any questioning.

Once you understand that the determination of "species" in halakhik terms isn't completely the same as in scientific terms, turkey appears without issue from my understanding.

I was speaking in halakhic terms.

[Hman (The Elder)]

What I find quite alarming is the vituperative nature of the fatuous attacks on Rav Bar-Hayim rather than simply disagreeing with the psak; and offering a cogent reason behind it. The whole thing is just appalling. The fact that people get so bent about eating beans and rice on Passover is indicative of how disturbed and neurotic so-called normative observance has become. Rav Bar Hayim is not a Kachnic. He taught at the Yeshiva for a period of time but left soon after. This is going back at least 15 years, so how this has anything to due with this particular issue is yet another pathological desire to obfuscate than to deal with the issue at hand. If I wanted to be as disingenuous as some of the detractors in this thread, I would simply ask, 'who do you think you are you bunch of uppity ego maniacs to disagree with a Chacham of Rav Bar Hayim's stature?' But, I would never resort to such nonsense since this approach is contrary to the lessons that I have imbibed from Rav Bar Hayim himself.

In any event, for those of you who have had the decency to listen to the shiur on his website in which he delves into the reasoning behind the psak and have chosen to adopt this heter, have a wonderful remainder of Pesah, free of hametz, neurosis and the proverbial axe to grind.

[Eithan]

Rabbi David Bar-Hayim is a monumental Talmid hacham with great yirath shamayim. He follows his halachic methodology consistently and does not have any hidden agendas (such as did the Reform and Conservative) to make Judaism more acceptable to the Westernized, suburban Jew. This is easily seen in light of his advocating wearing Tefillin not just during Shacharith (when possible), his opposition to neighborhood eiruvim and his advocacy of eating Yashan. He is not picking and choosing, but paskening in an intellectually honest fashion.

I highly recommend his excellent audio-shiurim at www.machonshilo.org

[EileenK]

I think the kitnyot ban is utterly reasonable in 2010 in the United States. Among the kitnyot that I either threw out or put away was corn meal and soy flour. Corn bread and Cornell bread (wheat bread supplemented with soy flour) are something I make regularly during the year. Kitnyot are very much a baking ingredient.

I'm BT, and I've kept kosher for about two and a half years. That has made me an avid home baker.

[Shmarya]

Eileen, I don't think you understand the basis for the ban. If anything, conditions in the US make the ban completely unnecessary.

[Robert Gasner]

What a bunch of losers...talk about missing the point, not only about Kitniyot but life in general.

The Kodosh Baruch Hu is or so little significance in your lives that you treat the KB"H like a little vindictive temper-tantrum throwing child. the KB"H doesn't care one hoot if you decide to have some rice on your seder plate...or if you eat some beans while celebrating the greatest turnaround from slavery to freedom.

And slandering one another to prove your point, as miniscule as your phyrric victory may be is not something that must please the creator of heaven and earth.

If I were the ruler of the universe and I had anyone worshiping me who had such a low respect for me, and such a low self-image as to have to denegrate another by pointing out silly spelling mistakes, or making fun of their interpretation of the talmud, i'd do something so hurtful as to ruin their lives - I'd make them think they were understanding anything about me when in actuality they weren't - oops...looks like the KB"H did it already.

Get over yourselves. You are going to be specs of dust before you relize it and all this one-upmanship is not going to make you any more tasty to a tola'at let alone be able to give a decent din vecheshbon to the KB"H