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April 25, 2010


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Igor belorus

One question did Litvak tried to cook few fishes before banning it. The whole Idea does not make any sence but does look like a fresh scam to milk people of their geld. For the worm become so grossly visible fish has to be severely infected aka morbidly sick or dead for quiet long time.
In any instances you should stay away from it. Are you telling me that rabbies used light boxes 2,000 years ago but way more of common sence and compassion for fellow folk.
P.s such a greedy behavior repulse me from going to shull.

Michael David Kittell

To Dave who says it is astounding that current Rabbeim would imply that previous generations of Gedolim ate traif:
The current Rabbaim operate on the assumption that the most recent psak din is authoritative even over Moshe Rabbeinu.
They also have an obvious disconnect with reality
When the Chazon Ish made the "k'zayis" and "k'beiah" measurements bigger, my then Rav commented on the fact that these Talmudic measurements have something to do with the size of the thumb of a person; and that either the olives back then in Talmudic times were much bigger than now, or people's thumbs were much smaller!
This was said said in all seriousness to justify a psak of a Gadol and with no attempt to look for evidence
Everyone should go outside and enjoy the summer and not let these meshuggaim ruin your day


I was told by "fish lady" at whole foods supermarket that all fish has parasites-- therefore "sushi grade" fish must be flash frozen at a certain temperature -- much colder than your home freezer -- in order to kill the parasites before eating it -- no, you cant just by raw fish and make your own sushi.

Or you may suffer the parasites yourself... flesh eating, brain eating etc.

al Farabi

Abracadabra - thanks for the kind words - the feeling is mutual, I assure you. I feel particularly isolated here at the southern tip of Africa. I live in a beautiful country with amazing people, but, as a Jew, I'm ashamed at the disgusting behavior of my fellow jews particularly the so-called orthodox ones, and specifically the chabad ones, who on the one hand con many people into believing that their "outreach" is sincere, and on the other hand have a racist and elitist canon, which, amazingly, they manage to hide so well. At least, in the USA, where I presume you live, you have some jews who align themselves with organizations other than haredi ones, and manage to counter the garbage and effluent which is excreted by haredim and pedalled as torah. Very similar indeed to the toxic financial instruments which were re-packaged by Goldman Sachs, graded triple A by the rating agencies, and sold to unsuspecting fools who couldn't see past the hype......look at the destruction which that wrought. Wait till the haredim and their garbage are fully exposed, through the efforts of the likes of Shmarya, for who they really are - I shudder to think of the churban which will follow, as has happened repeatedly throughout jewish history.

A. Nuran

Steven, we know that most of what we call taste is actually smell - everything except the seven basic flavors. So even the smell of treif contributes to the taste and is assur. Jews will have to wear noseplugs or gas masks at all times in order to keep from tasting traif in the air.


I agree with the anti-anti-fish crowd. Indeed, why not pass a law stating that all "religious" Jews must wear a face mask because when they are in the street or on the train, they might inhale someone's McDonalds's ham and sausage? Notice how over the years, these money making scam artists continue to ban one thing after another. First it's water, then it's fruit and vegetables, and now fish. Everything is done for gelt. If Jews can't eat fish, that means only chicken and meat. And naturally that means jacking up the prices even more so. I agree with Mr. Nuran. If this is what Judaism has become, then WHY CONTINUE TO BE JEWISH?

A. Nuran

If this is Judaism why would any sane person have anything to do with it?


Abracadabra, CS, Yudel,
Excellent and funny postings !
Kol ha-kavod.
I have checked out Karaite Judaism on the internet, just to see how the traditionalist opposition to the gedolim would think. I call them traditionalist opposition since they are more from than Conservative. They're more lenient in some things, but in others, they're not eg. they don't accept "bitul shishim" at all.
So, no-one's perfect.


i call this OCD halacha...like the many bochers who cannot daven cause they are not certain if they voided their bowels....this has nothing to do with reasoning....

we either got OCD in some form meaning we are on a smutz hunt...

or a generation of cult leaders.

but it is amazing how much power we give people who speak with forked tongues of ignorance but are bold enough to go for the power...and this is about power....not halacha and not yiddishkeit...power born from the cornerstone of fear....

take your pick.

and good people of course are either lost or silent....

mordechai hayehudi

I have seen the light and I will give up fish entirely.

From now on all my protein must come from muscovy duck.
And cauliflower.



There are two reasons why people accept chumrot upon themselves: they want to be "holier" than someone else (pride), or they don't know the laws, so they overshoot them (ignorance).



I find it astounding that they've decided to declare that all the Gedolim of Europe feasted on treif.

After all, farmed salmon didn't appear until the 1970s.

uncle joe mccarthy

good...i hate fish

Chicago Sam

Actually Dr. Dave, I say, "To Hell with all the Haredim, and their Hassidisher lackeys."


No fish for me tonight!



"While anisakis and tapeworm are in fish, they are in larvae form (not egg form)."

This issue just proves that modern technology is dangerous when put in the hands of terrorists or Chareidim.


If the kashrus industries play their cards right this could be a money maker.

Face it, people if they had their druthers, they would prefer to not eat worm infested fish. Now by piggybacking on the perception that kosher means healthier if one advertises that for a fish to obtain the kashrus seal that it must be thoroughly cleansed from worms I can see many people only buying kosher fish having nothing to do with kashrus issues.

Sammy Finkelman

Somebody should study Chullin 67a.

Yochanan Lavie

New Mc Donald's commercial:

(Singing fish):

Give me that sushi back
Give me that treif
Give me that sushi back
Give me that treif
What if was you making a psak halacha?
If it was you eating worms, would you make a bracha?


I always enjoyed Rabbi Alan Yuter's talks when he was at Cong. Israel in Springfield NJ.

Chicago Sam

Dr. Dave, ditto! They're so stupid, they would probably think they were in Gan Eden.

Dr. Dave

CS - excellent!!

So hell is other chareidim!

Chicago Sam

To all you Chaim-yunkles who love Eliyashiv,"Morons of the world, UNITE!" If Sartre were writing a new version of "No Exit," he would certainly have three Haredim sitting together in a hotel in the hereafter, where each one drives the other one crazy with more chumrot--for an eternity!

If I were God, that would be my punishment for these moral idiots.


To abracadabra, thanks for the kind words. You might perhaps look into the Union for Traditional Judaism, based in Teaneck, whichI believe has the Gadol Free Orthodoxy that you are looking for. You might enjoy in particular Rabbi Alan Yuter, who rejects all post talmudic "gedolim" and bases all psak on talmudic sources. He is extreme even in our group, but he keeps us all honest.


As I have long stated, the reason that kashruth is less and less followed is price point

I thought the kashrus industry is booming?

Alter Kocker

As I have long stated, the reason that kashruth is less and less followed is price point. Kashruth is rapidly becoming a luxury. The addition of fish to the long line of foods requiring inspection will price it out of the reach of already struggling families.

I have encountered a significant number of orthodox jews who have stated that they deserve their "piece" . Well, I am not so sure that they deserve their "piece", but what I am sure of, is that they cannot keep adding to the rules, and expect everyone to blindly keep following. There is a breaking point, and the recent years have proven that you can't keep upping the ante without a significant number of players folding their hand.


++Abracadabra | April 26, 2010 at 02:49 AM

I am honored to be included on this list of superstars.
I am also privileged to have you as a virtual colleague.

Yerachmiel Lopin

Mr. Apikoros,

R. Elyashiv is not 99; He recently turned 100. I expect he issues bans as a sort of birthday present. When those closest to him wish him "till 120" they do it with the gleeful expectation of more bans to come.


Where did you read that the fish was banned?

All I could understand was that the WORM (or worm-infested fish) was banned.

However, most countries now ask for preventive measures that prevent the anisakis from migrating to the fish flesh.

So there should no problem with eating the fish.


From my read, it looks like a lot of the fish mentioned can be eaten provided it is thoroughly cleansed.

"Thoroughly cleansed" - I have no problems with that. The thought of eating worms - unappetizing, even for a troll!



I'm with you. I've been saying it for a long time...we have to excise this cancer from the nation if we want to live, because if we do not, if we think for a minute that we can live simultaneously within the same peaceful world, they will surely take over and destroy us.
There is already a calculated, organized movement of 'black hat' elements to take jobs in modern orthodox schools and synagogues, and slowly turn them to the right.
There is a concrete and well organized plan underway to get so much control within the political structure that the decisions made both within the Israeli state, and the Jewish religious system reflect the will of a select few Rabbis, namely Elyashiv, Kanyevsky, Vozner and Karelitz.
It is time that we stand together and shout in unison that we, the multitude of Jews, will no longer be pushed around, we will no longer be subjugated under the colossal weight of their oppressive theocracy.
Ban the gedolim, get rid of them by any means necessary because if we do not, they will surely break our mind and spirit under the corrupted, corroded yolk of religious repression.


To all my fellow cynics here on FM -

You folks are THE BEST.

You all help save whatever sanity I have retained after years of indoctrination (it may not be much sanity - but hey - it's all I've got!)

Your comments are all always RIGHT ON the mark!!!!

You guys are GREAT! Thanks!

Mr Apikorus
Yochanan Lavie
A Nuran
Shaul in Monsey
Chicago Sam
al Farabi
& whoevever else I missed.


I say ban "Gedolim". That's right. We've had enough. Let's start a petition. We'll get thousands of signatures. We had enough of these people hijacking our religion which used to be honest, pricipled, and cared about justice and people, instead of bugs and dead pagans' bones. We demand that NO new halachos be created out of thin air. There are enough halachos, and enough chumros. And therefore, we demand no new gedolim and no new halachos. All gedolim are only dead ones who died before the year 1989. And all halachos are only those which were previously codified.

Let's riot and burn garbage dumpsters in front of the homes of the idiots that promote this hijacking of our religion.

Or better yet, let's start our own religion. A gadol-free Orthodox Judaism. No kol-korehs allowed. Based only on Torah. Members are not allowed to learn in kollel for more than one year unless a majority of members vote them worthy of doing so. Chumros are discouraged. Honesty, integrity, strict business ethics, justice, and caring for the poor and downtrodden are encouraged. Mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro are MORE important than anything else.

Anyone on board?


Chicago Sam -

They already banned water in New York City. You need a filter on the water to drink it AND to wash your dishes with it. Because, as you can clearly see (NOT!) there are bugs in the water. No joke! No upstanding yeshivish person will eat or drink in your house unless you use filtered water!

A. Nuran

It really comes down to hydraulic despotism. Control the things people absolutely need - food, clothing, sex, family, money - and you control them utterly. The cult of charedism cannot support itself, and at some level its leaders know this. So they exercise ever-increasing control over their members until obedience to the most ridiculous things is reflexive. It cements control over the victims by degrees and forges them into a unified bloc which wields greater power in extracting resources from outsiders.

A. Nuran

Sushi is the type of rice.

A. Nuran

Eating worms - Yech!

If you knew what went into most food including kosher you would develop anorexia. Just because you don't know about the acceptable levels of rot, rat feces, insect fragments and "other matter" doesn't mean it's not there.


First they took Lipa, then we were deprived of female rabba's now lox is gone too. Good thing embezzlement and pedophilia are still in. At least some outlets are still permitted.

Nigritude Ultrmarine

Is this a problem with eating Sushi?

Not all sushi is raw. Not all sushi is fish, some is even meat.


Freezing kills the parasites. Anyway, if you eat them you will get ill but only for a while they can't survive for long in humans:



Without commenting on the substance of the issue, I have always found Rabbi Hoffman's articles to be honest and not agenda driven (which is more than I can say for a lot of the comments here).

Chicago Sam

If Elishav says it is prohibited, I will say it is permitted--just because of his miserable track record. If I see a bug in the Sushi, I will not eat it, if not--believe me, I will not worry about such lunacy.

Maybe these shoteh hasidim ought to focus on the issues of pedophilia that exists in their community, or child or spousal abuse. What a concept! The next thing they will demand is that the water and the air be purified from "bugs" also, maybe we should all become Jainists!


This is on a par to banning Shabbat elevators for elderly people living in a nursing home


I heard that Rav Moshe Feinstein was against the use of lightboxes etc for the simple reason that this was never done for the last 2,000 years and so what was Kosher then must be Kosher now.
Remember that the Rabbis have Ruach Hakodesh and what was decreed in the time of the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch must be correct - after all we don't eat meat and fish together because of the health danger etc.

They can't have it both ways - that customs minhagim & behaviors don't change because minhagim are established and then decide to ban things that were never banned for the last 2000 years
This is particularly bad because of the health implications and that Kosher food is already too expensive


as microscopes become more powerful there will be nothing left to eat at all. Only replicated food like in star trek.

In addition as mentioned before every time you inhale you eat microscopic organisms, how is that permitted

Mr. Apikoros

You shouldn't eat raw fish with worms in it because the worms are parasites. What grows in the fish's belly can grow in your belly. Or brain.

However, the 99-year-old Litvak idiot and his apparachiks could care less about that. All they care about is whether the fish is "kosher," a concept made up by man in order to keep Jews from associating with Gentiles, not by God, who doesn't appear to have a problem with Christians eating fish. Or, for that matter, worms.

May the 99-year-old Litvak idiot, and his apparachiks, all sleep with the fishes. The sooner the better.


There is a principle that God does not permit the righteous to sin inadvertantly. (To the skeptics, I promise you this principle exists)If all the great Rabbis, Feinstein, Kutler, Grodzinski, Sofer, Elijah Kramer (Gra) all ate fish, the fish must be kosher. Another way of analyzing the issue is to say that there is a chazakah, legal status, that the fish is kosher and something new must be discovered that didn't exist previously. In American law it is called "stare decises" the matter has been decided.


Is this a problem with eating Sushi? I mean if the fish is raw and has worms in it is it safe? At least with grilled fish there is a chance of killing them.

Eating worms - Yech!


The assertion that this is a "new discovery" definitely seems odd to me. is the microsope a new invention? No, it was invented and used since the 17th Century.

With all the hours spent poring over the minutiae of kashrus by hundreds of thousands of people for hundreds of years, did no-one ever think before to take a look inside a fish's stomach to see whether these worms came from there (thus implying they oriignated from the outside)?

This all seems highly suspect.

Chicago Sam

What ga'onim! God, is our generation ever so fortunate to hear laws that not even the great rabbis of old ever heard of before!

Yosef ben Matitya

we were taught -tanya- that who eats fish (dag) on the sabbath, is saved from the flames of gehinnom (nitzal midag i.e. dina shel gehinnom).
and i wonder, if r' elioshiv, Rav Vosner, and Rav Karelitz can no longer eat their fish be it herring or gefilte or nisht gefilte on the sabbath, what will save them from "da'g"?


"The worms are indeed visible to the naked eye." - Old Time

Old Time,

So why did it take these gedoylim 1,500 years to find them and to report this "problem" to the public?

Seems like the parasites were eating parasites for thousands of years, then.

Shaul in Monsey

Is it possible this is all a play to drive up the fish prices in light of the Rubashkin well drying up?


They ban fish but still visit their prostitutes?


you fanaticly religious are nothing but fools worms are nutritious there is nothing to be afarid especialy after its cooked its even healthy to ban such wanderful nutritious food is a big sin especially from the hungary

Old time observer

The worms are indeed very visible to the naked eye. I checked Halibut fish last week. The Talmud states if the worm originated from the outside..it's not permitted. The anisakis is found in the stomach of fish & in the belly flap where they migrated from the stomach.
The Talmud states the ones found between the skin & flesh are permitted. Those were from deposits by parasites-not as worms but as larvae, etc. The fish flesh becomes the host no nourish the larvae and the emerging worm. That is the difference between the 2 types, one being permitted & 1 not permitted. The comentators on the Talmud state if there is doubt if the migrated via the stomach & are therefore not permitted or they are the ones that were deposited right below the skin by a parasite...we are to consider it as not permitted.

Hometown Postville

by Julian: The worms are NOT microscopic at all! Some of them are quite big actually.

If the worms are so big, then why do they need a rabbi to tell them not to eat it???? Are they THAT dependent?

by R: if you get a strong enough microscope you will find there are living organisms in everything.

I agree, R. Talk about "micro-analyzing!" The ancient texts that set the rules did not have such technology to go by! As technology advances, they will find fault with almost every food, between the toxins and parasites. They will end up starving themselves because even rainwater has its' share of chemicals!


As is the case with the ice cream on the other thread, a nice fat check from the fish industry to the rabbis will make all the fish kosher.


I'm telling you, the reason that they're banning the fish is because they accepted bribes from the Israeli fish farming industry!

al Farabi

These so-called haredi leaders represent the epitome of evil. Trust the rabbis to make a f--k-up of a decision like this. As Shmarya has stated elsewhere on this blog, they have the knack of choosing death over life. They will now be able to put another feather in their caps - they will scare jews off eating a highly nutritious food source which has been well and consistently documented in the medical literature to reduce heart disease, among other conditions. Heart disease is already endemic in certain sectors of the jewish gene pool. Their decisions truly are life and death decisions - in this case, once again, in favour of death. When I say that this bunch of fuck-ups makes people sick, I mean that literally.

Mr. Apikoros

Let 'em eat cake.


I wish commenters would read before they express "opinions".
The worms are NOT microscopic at all! Some of them are quite big actually.That is not the issue at all.
Rabbi Hoffman in the second article explains clearly what the issue at hand is.
Please, please can you guys read before you comment?


they are too small to be seen by the naked eye. And they are not talking about worms that one can see. I think in some ways new technology is causing problems when it comes to kashrut.
Soon we won't be able to eat anything because if you get a strong enough microscope you will find there are living organisms in everything.
And i have bought salmon and other fish and there have been no worms in them.
Maybe this is a ploy to make people buy only hechshered fish.


These things are microscopic, so I don't see how they can comprise more than 1/60th of the total volume of fish flesh.

When it's a complete organism (beriah), there is no nullification.


Every Torah-true Jew must purchase an optical microscope with which to inspect his food before eating it. The more careful, however, will invest in a good, industrial-grade electron microscope.

And might I suggest a trip to Madoff's House of Microscopes in Boro Park? We sell the finest in Chinese and Swiss optics, prepared under the supervision of the Parisitecher rebbe from Paris.


Wouldn't the 1/60th rule apply (especially if you're cooking the fish is a casserole or stew)? These things are microscopic, so I don't see how they can comprise more than 1/60th of the total volume of fish flesh.


Dr. Dave, LOL, wacky funny info about the Jains.

I guess that's why I don't see too many big fat Jains walking around at the mall. Just a lot of fat chicks named Jane...

The Jain diet sounds like that SImpsons episode when Lisa falls in love with an environmentalist who will not eat anything that casts a shadow.

state of disgust

Guess I'll have to use different bait next time I go fishing. Wonder if the fish like cholent.


So they can't eat most berries, most dark green veggies, and most wild caught salt water fish. I think the demographics are going to reverse themselves when these folks start dropping from heart attacks and cancer in their 30s and 40s.


Parasites who have have a problem eating other parasites.

That's a new one!

Ma Rabb

" The worms are to small to be seen with the naked eye"
I guess you never cleaned fish.I have and have seen the worms not all the time but sometimes.

Dr. Dave

As to the future of the Chareidi /Jainist diet


Jains practice a unique concept of restricted vegetarianism. They do not consume root vegetables such as potatoes, garlic, onions, carrots, radishes, cassava, sweet potatoes, turnips, etc. However, they consume rhizomes such as turmeric and ginger.

The reason behind this restricted diet is that vegetables grown underground or kundmul are believed to contain far more bacteria, and thus life, than other vegetables.

Eggplants are also not consumed by some Jains owing to the large number of seeds in the vegetable, as a seed is taken to be a form of life.

Strict Jains do not consume food which has been left overnight, such as yogurt which may have been set overnight, and have their meals before sunset because large amounts of bacteria grow overnight when there is no ultraviolet light from the sun to kill them.

Yochanan Lavie

Dr. Dave: LOL!

Dr. Dave

Haredi Rabbinic Leaders Ban Most Fish

In a related story:

Haredi Rabbinic Leaders Ban the entire Barney Miller cast

Dr. Dave

The chareidim have their own religion.

It is not Judaism.

Maybe it is Jainism?

Hometown Postville

Ah, this is what those hard working Haredi do all day, not just over-analyze "rules" but now they are putting everything that goes into their mouths under a microscope too? Is Matzo meal next? Certainly a few mealy worm eggs slip through that as well. That would justify a few thousand volunteer inspectors who have nothing better to do. Imagine the parasites and pests of Biblical days that went undetected.

Dr Harold Goldmeier

meat and poultry are more infested with microbes and microscopic worms than fish, so I hope the Haredim stop eating fish, meat and poultry; with lower demand the prices should come down and there will be more for me and my family at more reasonable prices.


Next concept:

Canned kosher air (vacuum packed for freshness!)


as i type this with one hand, I'm brushing and scraping my mackerel with the other.


This is a ploy. There are no shochtim or masgichim on fish. How is that possible? Where can these kolel bums (oops, meant boys) go to "earn" a living. After all, how many rabbis doe it take to certify a head of lettuce? Does anyone remember when vegetables could be eaten anywhere, with no rabbi involved? I must be getting old. Wait, they will come up with a pretext for getting rabbis to certify eggs. Rabbis need to eat to, we have to find something for them to do.

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