A Defender Of Rubashkin Retracts – Sort Of

Did a self-proclaimed animal rights activist know what he was talking about when he defended Sholom Rubashkin?

Gregory Johnson wrote an error-ridden article in defense of Sholom Rubashkin that was widely circulated by Rubashkin supporters.

I posted the article last week, and noted Johnson's errors.

Johnson wrote a response to my post, and to your comments about it.

Here is the part of that response that deals with what I wrote:

I discovered that my article has been picked up and posted to a variety of websites, including Failed Messiah and Shturem.org. This page offers responses to comments posted on the Failed Messiah website.…

…2. Shmarya Rosenberg commented, ”Johnson’s evaluation is based on a controlled tour given long after public and governmental pressure forced Agriprocessors to improve.”

• Clarification. I agree with you here. Planned tours or inspections are undoubtedly a bit more tame than business as usual. However, I was not with a group of inspectors who might be considered a potential threat, and what I was primarily observing were machines, procedure, and aspects of the plant that can’t be easily changed in a day for a small tour group.

3. Shmarya Rosenberg commented, ”…he projects backward, alleging that PETA lied about Agriprocessors.”

• Clarification. Not to get into a debate about PETA, but I was simply surprised that nothing really seemed to have changed two years later, and that what seemed to be the same procedure, produced different results in reality than what the video depicted. Also, the group I was with were not seen as ‘outsiders’ so, it seemed to me, that less was done to impress us. We weren’t inspectors nor were we considered a threat in any way. So, I would think they would be less likely to be on their guard. My observations and comments about the plant were primarily about the machines, mechanisms, and procedures being used. These are things that can’t easily be changed for a tour group. I was looking at the entire process and sort of ignoring things that a person can clean-up in a day prior to an inspection.

4. Shmarya Rosenberg commented, ”Johnson even claims the ‘procedure’ he saw in 2006 was exactly the same throat-ripping shown on PETA’s 2004 videos.”

• Clarification. What I saw was the same room, the same equipment, and a quick cut to the throat that seemed to produce instantaneous death. There were no cattle hobbling around while bleeding to death, nor were throats being ripped out. Maybe I need to revise the article to make this clearer.

5. Shmarya Rosenberg commented, ”Rubashkin supporters do not have the facts or the truth on their side, so they often resort to lies. Those lies may help energize their base and help raise money, but they will not impress a sitting federal judge or law enforcement.”

• Clarification. I’m not in touch with any Rubashkin supporters, so I can’t speak to this, you may be right there. I can only say that my story is genuine and truthful.…

Related Post.

Johnson's entire response as a PDF file:

Download Responding to Failed Messiah Feedback on the Sholom Rubashkin Defense Article | ResourcesForLife.com

Comments

[Abracadabra]

Um, I don't see how he retracts at all. But hey, that's just me.

[Shmarya]

He admits I'm correct about every major point I challenged him with.

While not a retraction, he does prove my points.

[a yid]

It takes one to know one, Shmarya rails against fanatics, yet is the greatest fanatic of all when it comes to anything to do with Rubashkin, Chabad or orthodox Jews. No objectivity there, at all. As a long-time Chabad reader of FM, I must say you have strengthened my identity, as I see that a large part of the (often justified) criticism is so disproportionally celebrated it – at times- borders on a psychlogical disorder. So many thanks for that (and also thanks for all the news the other site wont publish ) on another track, it seems as if Rubashkin must have done favour for Scotty at some time, no? That would explain at least some of the obsession.

[harold]

Again, G-d forbid anyone says something positive about Rubashkin.

[jay]

The typical response to criticism of the problems in the Orthodox community: "a psychological disorder" or more recently in the Ortho press.. blood libel.

[ML]

Harold, what's your point? Again?

[Yosef ben Matitya]

It takes one to know one, Shmarya rails against fanatics, yet is the greatest fanatic of all??? .....: a yid | April 11, 2010 at 05:17 AM

but hold on a minute, is this yid, jewish to begin with?

[rebitzman]

Well...............he doesn't actually AGREE with you, but he does concede that he did a poor job explaining himself and his points.

Bottom line - he is entitled to his opinion, but at this point the only opinions that matter are the 12 people who heard the evidence and found SR guilty based solely on that evidence, and the opinion of the judge who has to determine whether SR will spend 6 years - or the rest of his life in prison.

[al Farabi]

Shmarya is one of the few people that has the balls to take on one of the most vicious and wicked mafias in the world - the haredim - they are particularly vile and despicable because they disguise themselves as "holy men" - whatever that means. I, like most people here, wouldn't dare post under my own name, for fear of reprisal against my children, from these vicious specimens. The only psychological disorder revealed here is the disorder of "haredism" - if Shmarya could be faulted for one thing, it would be for being too courageous. Good for you Shmarya! Keep up the good work. The evil of the Catholic church is being exposed and the evil of haredi judaism should be exposed as well. And for all of you who are going to start with your self-hating jew garbage -f--k you!

[cheskel]

As it seems SMR will probably end up in prison.So for all u jew haters self hating jews dont get so excited if a non-jew defends a jew.but remember all :be carefull what u wish upon SMR becuase in this great USA u all may be next special if u r jewish frum or not.

[chabadnik attorney]

Posted by: al Farabi | April 11, 2010 at 02:29 PM

If, what you say about Charedim is true, that they are "one of the most vicious and wicked mafias in the world", then Shmarya would be Chas Vishalom sleeping with fishes. Obviously what you are saying is based in ignorance, bigotry and hatred. Anyone, to each his own. The more vile evil people that express their views here, the more this blatantly slanted and distorted picture of Judaism is diminished.

[Abracadabra]

ALL of us Jews should be concerned about a religious Jew being dealt with in a way that is out of proportion to similar crimes - even if you think he is a terrible person.

Hitler didn't discriminate between religious and secular Jews. Suicide bombers don't discrimate, nor do any Jew haters on the planet.

So when the world is up to the next Holocaust and they come for the Jews with the beards and peyos, they will come for all secular Jews too.

It was only 65 years ago...

[Abracadabra]

Imagine if Sholom Rubashkin was your brother. He made some dumb mistakes, tried to keep the business afloat, and got caught doing things wrong. But he didn't kill anyone, rape anyone, molest anyone, damage anyone's life in irreparable ways, etc.

I honestly do not think he is evil, and hope for his and his family's sake that he doesn't get more than a 5 year sentence (even though his lawyers are asking for 6). That would be hard enough for him and his family. And there is no getting out early for good behavoir in the federal penal system. 5 years means 5 years. From everything I've read, that seems to be a very heavy punishment. It will be 5 years of hell to pay.

To call for a lynch mob, or for his being jailed for 10-30 years is just way out of proportion to what he did wrong.

There are pedophiles getting sentences of 5 months, who ruined and stole the lives of countless children, making their lives miserable and dysfunctional forever.

There are voilent criminals who are repeat offenders getting sentences of 2-5 years.

There are drunk drivers who kill people with their cars who get a slap on the wrist.

Shalom Rubashkin should not get more than year or two, and if you say his crimes are really, really extensive, give him 3-5 years. But anything more than that is just over the top.

[Shmarya]

ALL of us Jews should be concerned about a religious Jew being dealt with in a way that is out of proportion to similar crimes - even if you think he is a terrible person.

Rubashkin is NOT being "dealt with in a way that is out of proportion to similar crimes." He's being dealt with normally.

Unlike the cases Rubashkin uses to 'prove' discrimination against him, Rubashkin has not admitted guilt, plead guilty, cooperated with law enforcement or stayed away from committing other crimes.

He has been obstinate and uncooperative, and he has repeatedly lied about the prosecution while shouting antisemitism.

People who behave this way get stiffer sentences than people who take responsibility for their crimes and act like mentchen.

Any honest defense lawyer will tell you that, as will any judge.

[Shmarya]

There are pedophiles getting sentences of 5 months, who ruined and stole the lives of countless children, making their lives miserable and dysfunctional forever.

In the federal system – you know, where Rubashkin's case is – pedophiles get closer to 30 years.

[Shmarya]

Shalom Rubashkin should not get more than year or two, and if you say his crimes are really, really extensive, give him 3-5 years. But anything more than that is just over the top.

The fact is, it is not over the top in the federal system.

That said, if Rubashkin and his supporters would stop lying and tell the truth, and if Rubashkin would finally take responsibility for his crimes, I think it would go a long way toward getting him a lenient sentence.

As I wrote above, Rubashkin is NOT being "dealt with in a way that is out of proportion to similar crimes." He's being dealt with normally.

Unlike the cases Rubashkin uses to 'prove' discrimination against him, Rubashkin has not admitted guilt, plead guilty, cooperated with law enforcement or stayed away from committing other crimes.

He has been obstinate and uncooperative, and he has repeatedly lied about the prosecution while shouting antisemitism.

People who behave this way get stiffer sentences than people who take responsibility for their crimes and act like mentchen.

Any honest defense lawyer will tell you that, as will any judge.

[Isa]

In the heartland of the USA Pedopiles do not get 'slaps on wrist' they get hard time. Juries will max out on slim.In Texas always 'do the deal' Juries are like vigilante committees!!!

Ol' Rubi needs to get on his knees and beg forgiveness, beg forgiveness of calling judge, prosecutor, jury etc anti-semite. And keep begging forgiveness for this, that and everything else too!

Take a look at Mike Vic the guy who organized vicious dog fights

He got down on his knees and begged forgiveness! Of course it helps he is going to give a good percentage of his earnings to animal causes. At least the animal lovers will let him play.

Imagine if he was combatant and said "thems my dogs and I can do with them what I want"
Ol' Rubi did not learn his lesson...

[cheskel]

"Any honest defense lawyer will tell you that, as will any judge."
And any honest defense lawyer will tell to a client if he is jewish special if frum:"Plead guilty because u have no chance with a jury". its a known fact

[Shmarya]

And any honest defense lawyer will tell to a client if he is jewish special if frum:"Plead guilty because u have no chance with a jury". its a known fact

Not that I've ever heard. Most of the haredi criminals I know of did not plead guilty and those who did had massive evidence against them.

[cheskel]

"Not that I've ever heard. Most of the haredi criminals I know of did not plead guilty and those who did had massive evidence against them."

Again, i know a bit about it and its a very known fact.

I can sight u many instances were "haredi criminals " who got convicted on minimal amounts of money stealing with huge prison sentence and in some cases the judges were very bias yes against jews

[Shmarya]

Then cite them, because "minimal" amounts don't lessen the sentence. Grand larceny, for example, is still grand larceny.

[rebitzman]

+"Any honest defense lawyer will tell you that, as will any judge."
And any honest defense lawyer will tell to a client if he is jewish special if frum:"Plead guilty because u have no chance with a jury". its a known fact+

It is NOT a "known fact" - it is utter paranoia. The frum only have to fear the courts if they are guilty.

+I can sight u many instances were "haredi criminals " who got convicted on minimal amounts of money stealing with huge prison sentence and in some cases the judges were very bias yes against jews+

If you could - you would have.

[rebitzman]

+That said, if Rubashkin and his supporters would stop lying and tell the truth, and if Rubashkin would finally take responsibility for his crimes, +

Disagree on the first part - do not believe the judge cares what anyone else says (on either side) what people are saying about SR.

As to the second - you saw some (OK - a little) of that when the defense made its own sentencing recommendations.

Needs to go further, but........small steps?

[cheskel]

Look,obviously u hate orthodox jews with a passion we all agree on that.Any example i will site u wont agree with it anyways.Take the case of a frum jew "Samet" were JUDGE COLLEEN MCMAHON presided over the case. he was sentenced to 27 years in prison for a theft of 3.5 Million dollars. Yes he had many other crimes while doing his theft.Non-Jewish reporters at that time noted in the newspaper that it was an unheard of punishment. Read the judges views on Judaism and go figure. or maybe she is taking her views from this blog

[Robert Wisler]

Shmarya,

Did SMR actually himself claim the "anti-Semitic" angle of the judge and jury, or was that the work of his "supporters"? Did he ever speak either publicly or privately about his "denial of guilt" or again, was that his obnoxious supporters opening their big mouths? Is he repentent? Is he begging God and his accusers for forgiveness in humbleness? All I know is the obnoxious documents, press releases, etc that I've read about this case here and on other sites. Please clarify for me Shmarya with some quotes from Mr. Rubashkin himself. I simply do not know what to believe anymore!

[Robert Wisler]

To clarify my last comment...

"the obnoxious documents, press releases etc" means those put out by the "save SMR" campaign and his attornies.

[Shmarya]

cheskel says Samet was unfairly sentenced. Here's the summary of Smaet's crimes released by the USDOJ after sentencing:JAMES B. COMEY, the United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York, announced that MORDECHAI SAMET was
sentenced to 27 years and 3 months in prison, and his confederate
CHAIM HOLLENDER was sentenced to 12 years and 7 months in prison
today in White Plains federal court on their convictions for
racketeering, money laundering and related offenses stemming from
a massive fraud scheme they ran with several co-conspirators in
the Orange County community of Kiryas Joel.

They were convicted by a jury in December 2002 after an
eight-week trial in White Plains federal court before United
States District Judge COLLEEN McMAHON. SAMET and HOLLENDER were
both convicted of racketeering, money laundering conspiracy, mail
fraud, wire fraud and bank fraud. In addition, SAMET was
convicted of filing, and conspiring to file, false claims against
the United States. In total, SAMET was convicted on 33 counts,
and HOLLENDER was convicted on 17 counts.

In imposing the sentences, Judge MCMAHON said, “This
case is extraordinary because of the breadth and scope of the
frauds committed, the period of time over which they were
committed and the chutzpah of the people committing them.”
She added, “Mordechai Samet lived a life of unremitting
fraud. For many years Mordechai Samet’s life has been completely
dedicated to the pursuit of crime. He defines the word
‘racketeer.’”

SAMET and HOLLENDER were charged with operating what
the Indictment described as the “Samet Group” — a racketeering
organization which used a wide variety of fictitious identities
to commit a vast array of frauds, netting millions of dollars in
profits. The Samet Group defrauded innocent consumers through a
mass-mailing scheme based on fictitious monthly lotteries and
phony charities.

The trial evidence demonstrated that the enterprise’s
members created fictional personal and business identities in
order to carry out a fraudulent leasing scheme in which the
defendants, pretending to be business vendors, obtained funds,
supposedly for business equipment, from leasing companies. They
defrauded banks through millions of dollars’ worth of counterfeit
and otherwise fraudulent checks. They defrauded life insurance
companies by making false death claims, and defrauded federal and
state tax authorities by seeking millions of fraudulent tax
refunds for fictitious people. Additionally, they defrauded
credit card companies by fraudulently disputing charges, claiming
goods or services had not been received, when in reality the
charges were for investments in a pyramid scheme that collapsed.

They laundered the proceeds in the United States and overseas
(primarily in the Middle East), concealing their activities and
funding additional frauds.

Judge McMAHON found that SAMET, HOLLENDER and their coracketeers
obtained more than $ 4million in ill-gotten gains.

She directed that SAMET forfeit $4,065,052 to the United States
and HOLLENDER $1,947,513, and ordered that they make restitution
in the amount of $2,285,639.

Aside from SAMET and HOLLENDER, who were sentenced
today, 11 other defendants pled guilty to various charges as a
result of the investigation, and were sentenced to terms ranging
from 3 months’ probation to 51 months in prison.…
Nothing speaks to the moral blindness and bigotry of haredim more than cheskel's representation of Samet's crimes.

[Shmarya]

id SMR actually himself claim the "anti-Semitic" angle of the judge and jury, or was that the work of his "supporters"? Did he ever speak either publicly or privately about his "denial of guilt" or again, was that his obnoxious supporters opening their big mouths? Is he repentent? Is he begging God and his accusers for forgiveness in humbleness? All I know is the obnoxious documents, press releases, etc that I've read about this case here and on other sites. Please clarify for me Shmarya with some quotes from Mr. Rubashkin himself. I simply do not know what to believe anymore!

Rubashkin's employees (his attorneys) and his appointed representatives (his defense committee) and his family have all made these claims, Robert.

Rubashkin has had multiple opportunities to distance himself from those claims, but he has not done so.

[cheskel]

In the court of law oj simpson is innocent.
forget to mention that every single penny samet stole was paid back by a third person who is real good hearted jew and the judge went berserk.
Again, every single good lawyer will tell an orthodox jew: "Plead guilty cause u got no chance".

[Shmarya]

Process: The man committed dozens of federal crimes. He could easily have been sentenced to 50 years; he got 27.

Perhaps if he had cooperated and admitted guilt, he would have gotten less, perhaps 12 or so.

As for OJ Simpson: 1) That was state court, not federal, so you're comparing apples to oranges, and, 2) the man was a football star and actor with tons of money and the best legal defense that money could buy. His acquittal was a shanda. Nonetheless, if he had been poor and not famous, he would have been convicted. His case has nothing to do with his religion.

You and your fellow amoral thieves and conmen do not control our society, thank God. It6's time you learned that.

[state of disgust]

There is a bigger lesson here that I hope (but doubt) the haredi community will learn:
a) This is not Russia or Poland or Lithuania.
b) This country only works when the majority of its citizens abide by the laws of the land.
c) Dina malchuta dina, has real meaning and takes precedent.
d) Failure to follow the law of the land will result in throwing your sorry a*s in jail no matter what your religion - or in spite of it.
d) No one takes glee in seeing a human being incarcerated any more then they take joy in seeing someone with less then a 8th grade education trying to act like a Harvard MBA. Ignorance is nothing to be proud of. As the old Yiddish proverb goes: There is nothing worse than being a stupid Jew. A corollary: all the tzedaka in the world can't buy a gonif a ticket to olam habah.

[Dr. Moe]

Just a small note under the Obama Administration this raid would not have happed in the first place and SMR would not have been Incarcerated.

Even this blog administrator could not prove NOT even one raid on any factory or Plant in the United States since Obama took office.

Also Many Secular Jews and Gentiles feel Sholom Rubashkin sentence is to harsh compared to the crime of making false invoices and lying to a bank.

[state of disgust]

Dr Moe:
SMR would have been brought to justice even if he didn't commit bank fraud. There were a number of other charges which could have been brought - and still may - but classic bank fraud trumped the others. From this thread alone you have the possibility of suborning a public official. Bank fraud was a charge the prosecutors were most familiar with and probably had a successful track record in pursuing.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

From his website:

14. Neo-Conservaguy comments, “The writer is clearly ignorant about different approaches to kosher slaughter. The upside down contraption used in Postville is a disaster not only because it’s a terror for the animals, but even more so because it sets up bad slaughter. Concern about damaging the knife on the sides of the pen may explain much of what was seen in the PETA videos – ineffective cuts that clearly didn’t sever all of the veins, perhaps because they were not deep enough. Standing pens are the only reasonable approach for mature animals as large as the cattle involved.”

* Clarification. As I stated above, I can’t imagine any entirely “kind” way to kill an animal. From the research I did, those who justify the hanging the animals upside down method say that the blood rushing to the brain causes the animal to be in a state where the pain of death and length of suffering is decreased. Maybe those sources are wrong. Not having spent my life studying how to kill animals, I can’t really speak too much on the issue.

I'm unfamiliar with any claims of decreased suffering for inverted slaughter. The primary reason, as I understand it, is to facilitate certain halachic concerns regarding the cleaning and preparation of the area that will be cut and to allow better "aim" for the knife making the cut. You might research Temple Grandin's writings on this matter; her number one recommended position for kosher beef slaughter is the standing pen.

[Abracadabra]

I think the big difference here is State court vs Federal court. MOST financial crimes include bank and wire fraud, which make them Federal crimes. And most pedophile, molestation, drunk-driving, and other violent crimes are STATE crimes. Unfortunately, so many State prisons are SO overloaded, that the State courts seem to be more lenient on violent crimes, than the Federal Gov't is on Financial Crimes! Go figure!

So a pedophile or drunk driver will get a significantly lighter sentence than someone lying to the bank and other financial fraud.

[Abracadabra]

I love the USA. And as Jews, we are treated SO incredibly well by this country. Every crime commited by a religious Jew is a SLAP in the face of this wonderful, great, and awsome country we live in - the USA.

I wish Orthodoxy could have some informal but communal and social way of PUNISHING someone who commits a crime. So that person would get a double punishment - not just by the gov't, but also by the community in a social way. I think that would help to deter crime in religious cirlces. Every time I hear of a religious Jew who gets convicted it makes me ASHAMED to no end to be a Jew, and I cringe in disgust and shame. A religious Jew who is convicted commits a crime against ALL Jews, and therefore, should be made to feel that burden.

There is TOO MUCH misplaced compassion for convicted criminals in religious cirlces. You can have compassion for his family, without having compassion for the criminal. The criminal should be an outcast and should be made to feel that way deeply and significantly on a communal level.

As Jews, if we just keep the laws (which are so normal and fair) of this great country, then we can live free. Jews wearing Ultra-Orthodox garb can walk the streets without fear. Our shuls don't get firebombed and we don't get assaulted in the streets for wearing a yarmulka. Jews in France can't say that these days. G-d bless America.

[rebitzman]

+Also Many Secular Jews and Gentiles feel Sholom Rubashkin sentence is to harsh compared to the crime of making false invoices and lying to a bank.+

Interesting trick - them feeling that way.

Especially given that he has yet to receive a sentence.

[harold]

So that person would get a double punishment

In SMR's case he was doubly punished. Because he is a Jew he was not allowed to be free on bail awaiting sentencing. The phony flight risk to Israel argument is nonsense and a very dangerous precedent. It is scary because they can use this argument on all Jews.

There was no reason why they couldn’t, for example, place a guard on him 24/7 on SMR’s dime coupled with a GPS watch on him. If there is a will there is a way.

[Isa]

""""In the court of law oj simpson is innocent.""""

Ha-Shem did NOT forget O.J. did he!

Got what ? 26 years for armed robbery!

Sort of like with Al Capone, with all the murders he did-got him on tax evasion

[state of disgust]

Try not to cheer harold, but I agree with you that the law of return flight risk argument is baloney.
That said, SMR WAS a flight risk, having provided both a warning and the financial means for a get-away to at least one employee (Amar). SMR's actions show premeditated intent and acting on that intent for the benefit of others, so why would the court not surmise that he would do so for his own benefit. Bottom line: he was and is a flight risk.
BTW, I guess there are at least 50 doppelgangers in the haredi community who would gladly give SMR their passports so he could easily flee the country on someone else's passport.

[Mr. Apikoros]

It wasn't armed robbery. One of the guys who accompanied O.J. had a gun, which he was licensed to carry and did not point it at anybody. That guy was given a suspended sentence.

In effect, Simpson was tried again for murder (not for stealing his own stuff back), which is double jeopardy. The guy who engineered the whole thing, setting Simpson up, was granted immunity.

Besides, the difference between Simpson and Capone is that Capone was never tried for the murders he allegedly (and did) commit, while Simpson was acquitted.

[Gregory Johnson]

Shmarya and FM Readers,

Thanks, Shmarya for following up on my responses and sharing them here. At present, I don't have anything more to add. I think we've both stated our positions on this fairly clearly. It seems you and I are similar in our level of passion about life and social activism, yet possibly different in our views and approaches. So, I think we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Thanks to everyone for taking an interest to read and comment. I've consolidated a three-point response and clarification statement at the end of my article and also made slight changes in wording to make it clearer. You can find it here:
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/docs/item2734

As a writer, I appreciate the feedback both positive and negative.

I wish you all well.

Regards and Shalom,

Gregory Johnson
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/g

[Chaim]

Am I the only one that thinks that Shamarya comments himself under many different names?

[AGRI-vated Angel]

[Posted by: Chaim | April 12, 2010 at 12:59 PM]

Yes.