Settler Rabbi: It Is Halakhicly Wrong To Be Vegetarian

"We still are not compassionate towards people in our times, so having mercy on animals is irrelevant." 

Rabbi Lior: Vegetarianism not right for our times
'Only when world ascends spiritually and we have mercy on people will we be able to be vegetarians,' says prominent Religious Zionism leader. 'Vegetarianism out of compassion is a mistake'
Kobi Nahshoni • Ynet

Whoever avoids eating meat or has chosen a vegetarian lifestyle for the sake of having mercy on animals is wrong, according to Rabbi Dov Lior, a prominent Religious Zionism halachic authority.

"We still are not compassionate towards people in our times, so having mercy on animals is irrelevant," explained the rabbi. "Only when the world ascends spiritually and we have mercy on people will we be able to be vegetarians."

Lior is serving as Kiryat Arba's rabbi and is considered a prominent leader in the National Haredi movement.

Rabbi Lior addressed the issue in a scholarly article published on Saturday in the "Gilui Da'at" pamphlets distributed at synagogues. "There is no objecting to making sacrifices (in the Temple) on claims of cruelty to animals," opened the author in reference to a central topic in the weekly Torah portion.

According to him, "When the Torah allowed the slaughter of animals for human consumption, it thus permitted slaughter for higher needs (for mitzvot)."

Regarding the Torah's permission to kill animals in order to eat them, the rabbi wrote that Jews can "raise up the mundane."

"When a person from Israel eats, if he does so for a holy purpose, he sanctifies the material, something that does not exist among the nations of the world, for whom eating has no connection to holiness," Rabbi Lior explained.

As an example, the rabbi mentioned the Hasidic custom of tasting the rabbi's leftovers after he "discovers sparks (of wisdom) within the food."

Rabbi Kook's philosophy
Rabbi Lior believes that "the time has yet to come" for vegetarianism out of compassion for animals: "I remember when the Russians sent a dog to space there was an outcry about cruelty to animals. I wonder: How is it that when ships sink in Haifa we do not hear these cries? HaRav Kook said about this that when the world ascends spiritually – we will be vegetarians."

The non-profit organization Anonymous for Animal Rights said in response, "The short and impressive book by Rabbi Kook, 'A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace,' is available for reading on the internet, and we are certain that whoever reads it not out of a clear interest of continuing to eat meat at any price will find a difference spirit presented than the one in Rabbi Lior's statements."

According to Anonymous, Rabbi Kook even took the discussion beyond killing animals for their meat and addressed harm caused to animals used for milk and wool. The organization claimed that if Rabbi Kook "were to see the situation today in which 300 million animals are put to death after lives of constant suffering in Israel every year, he would not think it appropriate to take part in this."

Israel's Green Movement said that "Rabbi Lior's response shows ignorance of the subject. Eating meat damages humans first and foremost and their ability to exist on the face of the earth. The environmental effect of the livestock economy is enormous and one of the major factors in the eradication of human's life support systems. Raising animals for food is one of the factors with the largest effect on global warming, deforestation, soil erosion, and contaminated water sources."

Lior comes from a Chabad family, I'm told, which helps to explain his view.

[Hat Tip: Chicago Sam.]

Comments

[Garnel Ironheart]

On the contrary, he makes an excellent point. PETA activities, for all the good they think they're doing, treat their fellow human beings worse than animals.
In Canada, it's easier to get an MRI for your dog than it is for your mother.
If an individual is scrupulous in his treatment of his fellow human, then it makes sense to consider vegetarianism as the next step but otherwise, it does sound like hypocrisy.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Israel's "Green Movement" displays the typical self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude of PETA and its acolytes and their first cousins in idiocy, the warmingistas.

They would like to see the earth's population cut in half, with them as the ones to decide who gets to procreate and who doesn't. Dr. Mengele couldn't have said it any better.

In 1970, butterfly zoologist turned population alarmist Paul Ehrlich (who's still around, and who hasn't improved with age), claimed that by 2000 there would only be a couple of a hundred million humans left, with all the rest dying of starvation and disease. He was only off by 6 billion or so.

If it were up to me, I'd make money blue and outlaw the color green except for St. Patrick's Day.

[Pierre]

It's a profoundly stupid and a-historical claim to say raising animals as such has done this; factory farming of animals AND PLANTS as done for the past 70 years or so has done this. People have been raising animals on grass diets for eons. Annual grains and mass cotton farming have taken a profound toll on world ecosystems AS WELL as meat production (Against the Grain by Richard Manning, the recent 'crop' of food consumption books, "Food, Inc" movie). I have completely lost respect for the Israel Greens for having made such a sweeping and unscientific claim.

http://www.themeatrix.com/learn/

It's worse than the rabbis statement, who is inconsequential and effects a few disciples.

[Jay]

Obviously the Green representative was referring specifically to the modern agro-industry which is causing major world deforestation, rapid deterioration of topsoils, increased disease rates due to abuse of antibiotics, metabolic disorders due to abuse of hormones and chronic diseases specific to overconsumption of high fat foods (eg dairy, meat).

I'm not a vegetarian but to so quickly dismiss the negative impact that modern livestock , dairy and poultry agro-industry has on the world, is just plain stupid.

[harold]

Another pointless article that will be ignored by everyone given by one person and is given a larger than life prominence by the media. As usual here at FailedMessiah comes the usual pre-article spin to make sure to get the scripted response from the peanut gallery.

From my read he does not forbid one to be a vegetarian but objects to the reason given by some. If one wants to be vegetarian because it is healthier then it does not appear go against his objection. So if you are frum and care about what this Rabbi says and want to be a vegetarian simply say that you are one because it is healthier. His theoretical argument is rather pointless gibberish.

[state of disgust]

I eat and enjoy meat but consider vegetarianism to be the highest form of kashrut. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who are able to adhere to this practice.

[Pierre]

obviously nothing! This comment by the representative is indistiguishable from those made incessantly by environmental 'activists' in America - it fits seemlessly with their pattern of rejection of any alternatives but what they propose, which invariably has veganism as an ideal. It entails a rejection of any reasonable models of sustainable livestock production as bogus "happy meat". That humans are omnivores is something to be genetically-engineered away from - despite the profound health issues with such restrictive diets. We get sold "vegetarianism" no less than we were sold the "food pyramid", which emphasized things people have only been eating regularly the last 10,000 years (compared to HOW LONG our species has been here?...). Places like india people are not "good" vegetarians; they consume milk and eggs and aren't machpid about checking veggies for insects (trace protein), places like Asia they DON'T eat soy like americans do - but DO eat plenty of fish. ALL of which is tolerated at best by PETA and something to be weened from by 'more mainstream' veggie advocates).

[soso]

Rabbi Lior is perfectly right.

He is the first who lacks compassion for fellow humans, especially if they are not jewish or, more precisely, when they are arabs, or, still more precisely palestinian arabs.

So he is absolutely right, as far as he himself is concerned: first learn rachamim towards human beings, than move on to animals.

http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/rabbi-lior-says-it%E2%80%99s-ok-to-kill-civilians-and-other-rabbis-are-silent/

[jay]

The food pyramid is designed by the USDA, not the FDA. The USDA is beholden to the agricultural industry. Consequently the food pyramid has in the past emphasized those foods that agro-industry intended to promote and sell. This isn't about PETA. (by the way, there was a big scandal a few years back when a number of their headquarters staff were seen eating at a local Popeye's chicken joint). Corporate agro industrial food processes, a high animal protein diet (not including wild caught fish), and globalized food production are harming the environment, economies, and contributing to chronic disease. If some people choose, as a response, to become vegetarians, that Rabbi has no right to be dismissive of that choice. Additionally I was always taught in yeshiva that the point of tzaar baale chayim was that rachmonos to animals HELPS us learn rachmonos to people.
Pierre does bring up one valid point , tangentially, eating locally produced foods is generally healthier and better for the world then eating imported vegetarian foods.

[zach]

In Canada, it's easier to get an MRI for your dog than it is for your mother.

Patent nonsense. You are comparing waiting due to insurance vs paying out of pocket which can be done without delay?

The happy medium almost assuredly lies somewhere between the frequent (big bucks to the hospital and doctors) and overuse (questionable efficacy for many health problems) of MRIs in the US vs. the long

Yeah, Canada's health system has its problems, but at least everyone gets health care there. And the citizens are healthier by most measures (not necessarily causal though, and for serious illnesses it still MAY be better to get treated in the USA.)

[Pierre]

I think I made several good relevant points. And I said nothing about the FDA (see Lierre Keith on the rise of american agribusiness and regulatory agencies). Nor does anything I said contradict what you follow with about agribusiness - I *specifically mentioned* that what the representative said about 'meat' applied to industrial production! Which would make you tangential. I mention PETA because what the representative said is indeed along their party line! Eating local grass-fed is even better than just local, and increasingly doable (Kol Foods in the Mid-Atlantic for example). I forgot to mention the exploitation of Rav Kook in this; along with certain of your comments about tzaar baale chayim, it comes up in this piece by R. Blech;

http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=107

[randomthought]

It's like a stupid argument in the high school cafeteria under the guise of a religious discussion.

[ad]

"When a person from Israel eats, if he does so for a holy purpose, he sanctifies the material, something that does not exist among the nations of the world, for whom eating has no connection to holiness," Rabbi Lior explained."

Those goyim they're just sh**t!

[ad]

PS. Sh**t is also what the rabbi's "holy" meal turns into.

[HaNavon]

well, he's wrong and he's right.
he's wrong because he says it's irreverent, and that's just not true at all, there are many good souls out there that love all people and things, so this i can understand. but there are so many people who love animals so much, they will never eat an animal, they check all of the ingredients and go to vegetarian restaurants...like my little sister, who talks about how we all need to be vegetarian, but then picks on people in public to embarrass them.
or, i actually have the perfect story that actually happened.
when i came back from living in china, i wasn't feeling well, so i went to the dr for a scan, he saw lumps in my chest that looked like they could be cancer, so that day my parents flew me to ucla hospital where they proceeded to do tests and decided that they had to cut into my neck and take a biopsy. it was pesach, a few years ago, and i was walking to rabbi cunin's shul in los angeles, and at the corner of the ucla complex, there was a protest group of PETA people, with video cameras and signs about how they should not do vivisections, where they operate on live animals to see their insides, in order to find cures for human ailments.
i spoke to one woman there, and she was saying that she was such a lover of animals, the proof of this, she said, was that she's a vegetarian.
my kippa happened to blow off, and i took the opportunity to ask this woman to bend down to pick it up for me, so she instinctively started to reach for it, then stopped herself and said 'no, you pick it up!', so i looked at the video camera and said, "you see" and i lifted my sleeve to show the hospital band on my wrist, "i'm a patient in the hospital and she refuses to bend to help me, she doesn't truly care about other beings at all!", it was just perfect timing! anyway, turns out that the lumps that they saw on the scan were from some kind of chinese parasite that infects some people in the tropical climate of south east asia, so i took medication and it went away....
the point is that many people, but certainly not all people, who are vegetarians aren't actually doing it right, where they love all beings and couldn't bear to hurt anyone or anything.

[Pierre]

Hanavon; great story! Many veggies/vegans I have known aren't very nice to people and are quite agitated dispositions, for all the talk about compassion. They also don't avoid death by being vegans/vegetarians. To raise crops, soil must be broken, critters from bugs to deer killed to protect them for human consumption. There are animal lives taken by the billions in agribusiness, from microbes to megafauna (where soil several feet down is chemically altered and laid waste by 'efficient' planning of only certain crops). To acknowledge and respect the facts of life and death is maturity and responsibility. I think there can be a denial of life when someone claims not to be responsible lives taken that we may live, and I think it's a celebration of life to see to it when life IS taken it's done so sparingly, ethically and with dignity. But via agribusiness and consumerism, we are in many ways and levels living naval b'reshut Torah.

[jay]

Ultimately, vegetarians and vegans are a diverse group of people just like any other. To typify them as generally dismissive of human needs or sanctimonious isn't fair (no, Pierre, I'm not implying that you did so). Still, it is amusing when one sees a PETA protester trying to prevent humane snaring of wild pigs in Hawaii , done in order to save native bird populations. Their insane suggestion was a human chain, marching across the island, to drive the pigs into the sea.

[maven]

Pierre, Hanavon: Many Orthodox Jews commit crimes, many doctors smoke, many theologians were involved in sex scandals.
Why can't someone who feels the need to be vegetarian do so as they wish? I have been one for many years after being a pathology rotation, frankly, chicken on the table looks just like a cadaver.
Are you going to tell me I'm "not doing it right"?

[Pierre]

Hypocrisy is a virtue as far as i'm concerned, albeit the last virtue in scoundels and cads like Tropper et al; at least one holds to a higher standard, albeit one that can't be owned up to. I have no problem with vegetarians or Class V vegans eating nothing that casts a shadow - it is just very questionable for those vegetarians WHO ARE SO ON MORAL GROUNDS OR ENVIRONMENTAL GROUNDS while consuming agribusiness produce, to cast others morality in doubt by claiming a death-free life that is lived at the cost of animal life! That's why I said the majority of Jews in developed nations these days are naval b'reshut haTorah. But often, for all the extravagant choices we have in toilet paper (as my Persian rabbi used to note), we often HAVE NO CHOICE but to choose between evils...Jewish society particularly in the West has put so much emphasis on identity-through-consumption, in convenience, all the things we complain about to ourselves. But where we have choices and don't make them, or tell ourselves that those choices DONT have costs that they really do - that is of course dishonest. It's one thing for Veggies and vegans to make a buddhist argument and say they're not DIRECTLY responsible for the death (Dalai lama eats chicken dumplings BTW), or to ADMIT they're choosing the lesser of two evils in buying and consuming agribusiness produce and petroleum-based plastic shoes. It's another to claim a bloodless way of life.

[yidandahalf]

Rabbi Lior, please have some of your gabaim and servants freeze dry a portion of your left-overs for me so I can get some sparks of your wisdom. After I partake of your spark laden scraps, I will send anything left back, lest any be wasted. Jesus wept, there is no hope for us with clowns like this in our midst spouting and spewing their profundities.

[Shlomo]

I think the interesting issue here is that the (chareidi?) national religious movement have abandoned or disregard Rav Kook's position as irrelevant in this and other matters as well.
Rav Kook was loved by general population of Israel something you won't been said about chareidi Rabbis.
The issue of vegetarianism is probably similar to being a Nazir is he achieving a higher purpose or is he haughtily refusing G-d's gift of wine etc

[Miyahc]

Actually I know people who were vegatarians and had heart attacks. Eating a little meat is good for you.

[maven]

Funny, "miyahc", I know people who eat meat and they have heart attacks as well!

[danny]

Rabbi Lior said: "When a person from Israel eats, if he does so for a holy purpose, he sanctifies the material, something that does not exist among the nations of the world, for whom eating has no connection to holiness."

What utter crap! He belongs in an asylum.

[randomthought]

Disagree about the equivalency Pierre. (for the record lol).

[danny]

Mr. Apikorus said: "They [Israeli Green Movement] would like to see the earth's population cut in half, with them as the ones to decide who gets to procreate and who doesn't."

What utter crap! Find me a position statement or anything remotely proving your statement. Methinks you're pulling this straight out of your ass. You are merely placing your own sick thoughts into a Green strawman.

[Mr. Apikorus]

First of all, you stupid sack of excrement, I wasn't referring to the Israeli "green" movement. I'm referring to the warmingistas, who want to cut industrial production in the Western countries by 80% by 2050. (Of course, the odds of that happening are slim and none.)

Not that the Israeli green movement is much different, Danny Boy. They introduced a bill in the Knesset to ban the importation and sale of fur. That's right, asshole. If some American Jewish woman travels to Israel wearing her fur coat it could be confiscated under the terms of this bill. (Streimels, btw, are exempt).

Kiss my ass.

[danny]

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

[Mr. Apikorus]

Moreover, shmuck, this is EXACTLY what Prof. Paul Ehrlich has said. Well, not exactly. He wants to see the earth's population cut by 2/3. He has also said that the worst thing that could happen to our planet would be the discovery of a cheap, limitless supply of energy (i.e. usable solar power on a large scale).

[danny]

I could care less what some Butterfly scientist from the 50s said. Pathetic to try to put his words in the mouth of anyone who you label to be "Green".

And why such hatred and harsh words for someone on an internet forum who you've never met in person?

For the record, I love you and all the other posters here.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Paul Ehrlich isn't from the 50's. He's from the late 60's, and he recently posted a screed urging "scientists" not to be nice to global warming skeptics, of which I'm proud to counted as one.

Another minor detail: You started this. I only responded to you.

[God is not amused]

According to scientist the #1 most dangerous animal in the world is the Human.
They are the only ones that kill, mame and lame, destroy anything and everything for no reasonable purpose. With this in mind; the Rabbi is not as intelligent with that stupid remark of just how "irrelevant" compassion is towards innocent living breathing creatures such as "animals" as he thinks he is. In fact a lot of Rabbis say some of the stupidest things which mislead and misinform. I mean just take one long look at the Satmar and tell me they are not one mislead misinformed people.

[Pierre]

I wasn't equivocating anyone. Anyone's capable of hypocrisy, but that doesn't make every incident of the same caliber.

[Chicago Sam]

Glad to see the article has created discussion.

Confiscate streimels? Them's fighting words!!

[A. Nuran]

Why do people here and on VIN equate vegetarian diets with PETA?

There were vegetarians a long time before PETA. There will be vegetarians long after PETA is forgotten. Some do it for health reasons. Some do it out of a sense of humanitarianism. Others just don't like meat all that much. But every time vegetarianism or anything relating to animal cruelty comes up the yidden start shouting about PETA.

[ML]

A Nuran: I don't get it either. Other than it's always easier to argue with, and demonize, a straw man.

[Jeff Eyges]

Lior comes from a Chabad family, I'm told, which helps to explain his view.

That says a lot, especially as regards that "When a person from Israel eats" business. They don't have a thought that wasn't put into their heads by the Rebbe.

[Jeff Eyges]

As usual here at FailedMessiah comes the usual pre-article spin to make sure to get the scripted response from the peanut gallery.

Harold, as you seem to have taken over the niche vacated by Archie (although without the racism), I'll ask you a question I used to ask him, to which I never received an answer: Why are you here?

[Richard Schwartz]

As president of Jewish Vegetarians of North America, I want to say that Jews should be vegetarians, not because of the arguments of PETA or any other group, but because vegetarianism is the diet most consistent with Jewish mandates to preserve our health, treat animals with compassion, protect the environment, conserve natural resources, help hungry people and pursue peace.

WE should also consider:

* Animal-based diets are contributing to an epidemic of diseases in the Jewish and other communities.

* Animal-based agriculture emits more greenhouse gases (in CO2 equivalents) than all the cars and other means of transportation worldwide combined (18% vs. 13.5%) and also contributes substantially to many other environmental threats.

When will the Jewish community start addressing the many moral issues related to animal-based diets? Time for a dialog/debate on "Should Jews Be Vegetarians?"

For more information, please see my over 140 articles and 25 podcasts at JewishVeg.com/schwartz and see our documentary "A Sacred Duty: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World" at ASacredDuty.com. Thanks.

[Richard Schwartz]

I hope that Failed Messiah will do a kiddush HaShem by posting a dialogue/debate between me and a Jewish scholar on "Should Jews Be Vegetarians?

It would help people see the relevance of Judaism's eternal values to current issues.

[Richard Schwartz]

Please visit

http://jewishveg.com/schwartz/dialogue.html

for a respectful dialogue between a Jewish vegetarian activist and a rabbi.

[randomthought]

Oh sorry Pierre, meant on the killing of microfauna vs cows, etc.

[effie]

This is really stupid. If people do not want to eat meat, that should be their business. There is something wrong with people who want to micromanage other people's lives to the point of ridiculousness.

[Mr. Apikorus]

I love animals. They taste great.

[Michael]

Pierre, your argument about vegetarians/vegans also killing animals is a specious one. The fact is that eating animals also kills other animals - the predators that are elimated to keep the meat animals safe, the microfauna and insects killed by grazing or by rasing feed crops, the animals killed by converting wild land to range or feed crop land that is in a higher proportion than that used for raising crops directly for human consumption. So, IN ADDITION to the meat animal that has been killed so you can eat it, there is all this other killing of animals too. The vegan and vegetarian diets has LESS impact in the indirect killing of animals since they use less land and resources in production and transport and does NOT invlove the direct killing for consumption of the meat animal. Thus, your argument is not valid.

[Mr. Apikorus]

I don't have a problem with vegetarianism, per se. If someone prefers a Morningstar soyburger to a hamburger, fine. I've eaten them myself, and while they sure don't taste like hamburgers, they're far from awful.

What I have a big problem with is other people telling people what they should eat. I don't care if it's a hamburger, a cheeseburger, a pork chop, or a lobster, don't go around pontificating that it's a "sin" to eat this BLT, or that by eating this steak, I'm ruining the environment. Bovine Excrement!

People have eaten meat ever since we climbed down from the trees, which incidentally was a lot more than 5,770 years ago. It's part of our diet. Capice?

[Jeff Eyges]

Dr. Schwartz, from an admirer of long standing - thank you for weighing in here and on Ynet. I'd like to see your goals implemented universally.

[shmuel]

Ecologically, it's not that everybody should stop eating meat, it's that everybody should be eating way less meat. It's way more resource expensive to grow feed for cattle than to just grow food for direct human consumption. So I mean, if you want to remain omnivorous, you know that's cool, just don't do the Texas thing (i'm from Texas) and eat a meal that is 60-80 percent meat. That's rediculous. Do what they do in most countries, chop up your meat in to small pieces and mix it in with rice or veggies or pasta or beans. Many asian cultures use tofu not as a meat substitute, but as an additional protein. Tofu also soaks up the flavors of the meat when cooked together. If every person on the globe ate as much meat as the typical American, we'd need the resources of 4 earths. BTW, there is a minchag among some people of only eat meat on shabbos and yom tov. there's nothing that can really be objected to about this. It's eco-friendly and halachically sound.

[Mr. Apikorus]

You can eat your tofu (the worst-tasting food on the planet IMHO); I'll eat my steak. Grass-fed if possible. The best steaks I ever ate were in Buenos Aires, where most beef is grass-fed.

Being a vegetarian isn't halaichally wrong, but neither is not being one.

[A. Nuran]

Dr. Schwartz, I'm not a vegan or even a vegetarian and don't agree with everything on your site. So please take the next comment with that in mind. It's well thought out. It makes a good case. And it does a good job of balancing the spiritual and earthly concerns. Good job. Any cause would benefit from the treatment you've given this one.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

If an individual is scrupulous in his treatment of his fellow human, then it makes sense to consider vegetarianism as the next step but otherwise, it does sound like hypocrisy.
also spracht gargamel,
which is fine until u find out that for some, the definition of fellow humans is limited to felojuz!