Rabbi Avi Shafran Says Women Rabbis Demean Women; Rabbi Steven Pruzansky Calls Women Rabbis Pagans

Whether ordaining Orthodox women rabbis violates a specific halakha (Torah law), is unimportant, Shafran said. It's still wrong.

RCA, Rabbi Weiss agree: Todah, no Rabba
Past the edge of Orthodoxy: will retract ordination of first female Orthodox rabbi
By Michael Orbach • The Jewish Star

Update: The following is an updated version of an article in this week’s newspaper; it confirms our report from an unnamed source that Rabbi Avi Weiss would back down over his confrontation with the Orthodox establishment over his decision to ordain a woman, Sara Hurwitz, as an Orthodox Rabbi.

Shakespeare’s dictum only applies to roses; a rabbi by any other name is not a rabbi.

Following weeks of negotiation with the Rabbinical Council of America, Rabbi Avi Weiss has made an about face and agreed to not confer the title  ‘Rabba’ on graduates of his Yeshivat Mahara”t for women.

The RCA issued a statement Friday afternoon that confirmed a report in the March 5 issue of The Jewish Star.

The story in the print edition quotes an unnamed source who said, “They’re negotiating. The RCA does not want to kick him out and he does not want to be kicked out, but this is an intolerable activity …. He [Weiss] is an impetous fellow, which is okay. Everything is in how he words it. If I had to guess, when Rabbi Weiss retracts, he’s going to say this was the right thing at the wrong time and I regret doing it, and I commit to not doing it for a period of time.”

Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the RCA, did not return calls for comment but on Friday afternoon the organization released a statement to announce that Rabbi Weiss had backed down.

Rabbi Weiss said as much in a letter addressed to RCA President Rabbi Moshe Kletenik, which was released to the public:

“It is not my intention or the intention of Yeshivat Maharat to confer the title of “Rabba” upon its graduates,” Rabbi  Weiss wrote. “Yeshivat Maharat prepares women for positions of religious leadership in the Orthodox community. Each student who completes its course of study in Tanakh, Talmud, Halakha and Jewish Thought, and is deemed fit by her faith, knowledge of our Mesoret, ethical integrity and temperament to assume positions of religious leadership in Orthodox institutions will be confirmed as manhigah hilkhatit, ruhanit, toranit (Maharat).”

The RCA statement praised Rabbi Weiss and said the dispute was resolved with “adherence to Torah principles and in a spirit of cooperation for the sake of peace and unity.” The statement affirmed the RCA’s support for women in positions of leadership, but cautioned that “any innovations that impact the community as a whole should be done only with the broad support of the Orthodox rabbinate and a firm grounding in the eternal mesorah of the Jewish people.”

The statement and Rabbi Weiss’s letter did not say if Sara Hurwitz would be allowed to retain her title of Rabba or would revert to using the title ‘mahara”t.’ The Jewish Star has learned that Rabbi Weiss would address that matter in his drosha this Shabbos at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale and announce that Hurwitz would henceforth use the title of Mahara”t, as will future graduates of Rabbi Weiss’ program.

“It was made pretty clear that the alternative was death; even she [Hurwitz] is better off. They were going to expel him and expel the shul. If you look at the Agudah statement they declared him non-Orthodox, not wrong, not mistaken, but not Orthodox,” said a source familiar with the negotiation.

Rabbi Avi Weiss’s announced ordination several weeks ago of Sara Hurwitz, 33, with the new title of Rabba, drew a furious response from virtually all corners of Orthodox Judaism.

Hurwitz served this past year at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, under the title Mahara”t. The upgraded title was necessary, Rabbi Weiss explained, to “make it clear that Sara Hurwitz is a full member of our rabbinic staff.”

The notion of a Mahara”t was apparently accepted in the Bronx, if barely tolerated elsewhere, but the new title sparked outrage even among some in Riverdale and raised the question: has Rabbi Weiss finally gone too far?

Agudath Israel first called the venture of ordaining women to the Orthodox clergy an “essential break with the mesorah (tradition) of klal yisroel” — in the words of a spokesman, Rabbi Avi Shafran — but a Feb. 25 statement signed by the members of Agudah’s Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah (Council of Torah Sages), was even more pointed.

“These developments represent a radical and dangerous departure from Jewish tradition and the mesoras haTorah, and must be condemned in the strongest terms. Any congregation with a woman in a rabbinical position of any sort cannot be considered Orthodox,” said the statement, whose signatories included Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky and Rabbi Yaakov Perlow, the Novominsker Rebbe.

Their principal objection is based on tznius, modesty, in the understanding of Rabbi Avi Shafran, Agudah’s director of public policy.

“Tznius isn’t a mode of dress. It includes the idea that women are demeaned and not honored when they’re put in the public eye and put on a pedestal. The position he [Weiss] has created violated the concept,” Shafran said. Whether the ordination violates a specific halacha (Torah law), is unimportant, he explained.

“Putting a woman in front of a group of men and women on a regular or ad-hoc basis is violative of tznius. Halacha accomplishes much more than the letter of the law. There is nothing in the Shulchan Aruch about keeping a cat in the aron kodesh. It’s technically permitted but it’s wrong to do.”

Perhaps most importantly, Weiss’s move was made without any authority, Shafran said.

“[If] Weiss had the backing of a world-class posek (halachic decisor) he would have a claim that he’s not departing [from the mesorah], but he does not have any such backings on the recognized Orthodox spectrum, chareidi or central. He’s changing the face of mesorah without anyone of stature behind him.”

While a condemnation from the Agudah was not unexpected, more centrist Orthodox voices were equally unforgiving.

“The ordination of women as rabbis represents a serious and inappropriate breach with our sacred tradition and is beyond the pale of Orthodox Judaism,” said Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a prominent Orthodox figure and rabbi of Congregation Bnei Yeshuran in Teaneck.

On his blog, Rabbi Pruzansky lambasted Weiss’s move, both from a halachic and historical perspective. The role of female clergy, “not only mimics Reform, but in fact is a throwback to pagan ideologies and a perennial challenge to religious establishments,” he wrote.

“Well, all rabbis are created equal, but they do not all carry equal weight,”

Pruzansky explained in a telephone interview. “Tradition strives for consensus, and in almost every case — and the exceptions are literally exceptional cases. The halacha (law), minhag (custom), practice, recommendation, etc. will follow the consensus of rabbis and certainly when the matter at hand has national implications…”

A Jewish Week article last week quoted an unnamed source close to Rabbi Weiss who claimed that the Rabbinical Council of America was planning on expelling Weiss. Already, graduates of Weiss’s rabbinical school, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, are prohibited from RCA membership.

Bracha Rutner, who serves in the Riverdale Jewish Center as a Yoetzet Halacha, a role akin to Hurwitz’s in some ways, wasn’t sure about the impact of a formal ordination. As a Yoetzet, Rutner is a halachic advisor to women in the community regarding taharat mishpacha (laws of family purity) and a variety of other issues, but she does not occupy a public rabbinical position.

“It’s an important step in the advancement of women. I just don’t know if this is the appropriate time to do it,” explained Rutner. “Maybe in the future, with women having more experience it is something that would have come out, but I just don’t think at this time it was the best thing for the community at large.”

Rutner said that she and other Yoatzot Halacha have worked subtly to make changes in the Jewish community. “We’re proponents of doing things quietly,” she explained and said the results of that approach have been positive.

“What has happened is people have come out and talked about what we’re doing: showing the number of phone calls, and the number of children able to come in the world. We keep things quiet, as opposed to presenting it so publicly.”

Rabbi Weiss has his defenders. Most prominent among them is Rabbi Marc Angel, Rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Shearith Israel, the historic Spanish and Portugese Synagogue in New York City.

“Rabbi Weiss is a visionary; an Orthodox rabbi who has the courage to grapple with many issues that other rabbis fear to confront,” he explained via email, before the report of Rabbi Weiss’ retraction was made public. “Whether or not people agree with him, they should respect the seriousness of his endeavor and his absolute commitment to make Orthodoxy grow and thrive in a meaningful, vibrant and ‘open’ manner.”

All change, he said, come with an accompanying friction.

“Whenever someone suggests a change in old patterns — even when the change is organic and halakhically proper — there will be those who reflexively oppose the innovator, and who prefer to keep Orthodoxy closed, hierarchical and authoritarian.”

Comments

[a reader]

i was at r' weiss' talk this shabbat about the rabbah/maharat issue.
he stated very clearly that the RCA never requested, let alone demanded, that he revoke sarah hurwitz's title of 'rabbah', and he was clear that he will not do so. he explained that his agreement with the RCA (to use the title maharat, not rabbah) only applied to future graduated of his yeshivat maharat.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Judaism as a penis cult.

[A. Nuran]

Well, between raising a dozen kids, keeping the house, supporting herself, the kids and the "learning" husband where would a proper Jewish woman have the chance to be a rabbi?

Someone needs to tie those dried up old shmekeles down and force them to listen to And Ain't I a Woman for about 4700 hours.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I don't think he really believes it demeans women. He couldn't care less; rather, he doesn't women in his profession.

[who knows?]

The more I learn about religion, the more it seems incompatible with decency.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

The role of female clergy, “not only mimics Reform, but in fact is a throwback to pagan ideologies and a perennial challenge to religious establishments,” he wrote.

And the idea of a weekly Sabbath sermon from the pulpit mimics the Christians. Where is the mesora for that?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

rather, he doesn't want women in his profession.

/need more coffee

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

Someday, historians will look back and decide that the "who is a rabbi" was one of those moments where chareidism separated itself from the halachic tradition.

I can't believed Pruzansky's nonsense about defending the mesorah. Does he use his pulpit to denounce chareidim when they violate halachah.

I will at least give Shafran credit for admitting it is not a question of halachah. But of course chareidism has conveniently elevated daas torah innovations to a decisive role. Naturally, g-d is a member of Agudah and doesn't mind how they have leaders who dont even answer a beit din summons and a slew of leaders who think molesting is not a problem. But women rabbis in modern orthodox shuls are what they worry about.

[HaNavon]

hahaha! these rabbis are making such asses of themselves! "it's like a cat on a bimah" idiot. it even says in shalchan aruch that you CAN have a woman rabbi!

[Bill]

"Teaching one's daughter Torah, is like teaching her lewdness." Talmud (Sotah 20a).

"Blessed are you God, King of the world, for not having created me a woman." (Daily liturgy for Orthodox Jewish males).

"Hareidi women are breeders, not leaders." (Me, quoting myself)

[al Farabi]

the "mesorah" of klal yisrael can be traced back to medieval christianity, particularly when it comes to matters relating to pesach. What a crock of shit from these hair-brained so-called rabbis, as usual.

[Pessie Gelb]

Burich Hashaim I am an unlearned chasidishe frau who will never be learned enough to qualify as a candidate for rabbinical ordination and therefore I will never have to deal with the question of whether or not learned women should be given rabbinical ordination or not and if so with what title.

[justsayin]

Most orthodox rabbis are gay so its natural that they would continue to seek exclusion of anything female.

And remember when we say they are gay we are talking about their desires not their actions. Ortho rabbis are gay and thus naturally find women disgusting. They have evolved some apparently effective rationalizations for female exclusion.

I don't understand why people ignore how ortho rabbis are mostly egregiously gay.

[PishPosh]

The term Rabbi has come to be associated with so many acts of ignominy these days that were I a learned Jewish woman I would find or seek to create another title, such as Morah Torah, or Zakenet/Elderess regardless of age it is a respectfull title. Maybe even Chochemet.

Learned daughters of Israel do not associate your Torah wisdom with a title that has been so disgraced in this century.

[Chicago Sam]

Penis cult? I think Modern Orthodoxy really needs some viagra--real badly; there's no iron in the john.

[critical_minyan]

rabbi pruzansky is the biggest piece of shit in the RCA today. Whenever Charedim sink to a new low it should be called a "Pruzansky moment".

[Reader]

Ms Rutner- the Agudah was calling the shul you work in and every shul with a yoetzet non-Orthodox
And Rabbi Pruzansky agrees. He is against Yoazot (in America) and is against women learning Torah Sh'bal Peh".

[Chayim]

I salute the Agudath Israel on being in the front line of defense just as the holy Chasam Sofer fought the reformers over a cetury ago. The modern orthodox today are becoming more modern than orthodox as they take a passive stand on gay marriages,evolution,partnering with the other heretical sects like reform and conservatives. Women who misuse the Torah roles are doing a diservice to normal religious women. A womans place is not about standing on a bimah flaunting her body but standing in the kitchen like our matriarch Sarah did and obeying their husbands. I have seen the results of the modern orthodox corruption of womens roles when I checked out feminist groups like JOFA and Drisha. Women who were turned into female men. At the JOFA feminist conventions the clean shaven squirmy men stand holding their babies at the doors as if they were women,while their big fat loud mouthed wives sit on round tables spouting feminist proppaganda. I call these husbands viber-mener (female males). Our secular society has turned women into men and men into females. Agudath Israel has the guts to blast these destroyers of Torah Judaism and call a spade a spade.Kol hakovad to Rabbi Shafran and Rabbis Pruzansky. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE.

[A E ANDERSON]

The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale (http://www.hir.org/contact.html) still lists the lady as a "rabba"

"Sara Hurwitz
Rabba
sarahurwitz@yahoo.com
For emergencies please
call: 646-337-4047"

I think "rabba" is an unfortunate name for a woman, because to me it implies physical largeness, in other "the fat woman." Medrash Rabba=the "big" midrash. By contrast, "zuta" means "small" as in "Seder 'Olam Zuta" and "Seder 'Olam Rabba."

The culture follows the linguistics: every man wants to be a big man (a compliment), and have a big member, etc. But on the other side of the gender coin, "bigness" is generally a negative attribute. (Yes, truckers and Al Bundy do prefer "Big Uns," and Egyptian men, among others, are known to follow a large caboose.) But generally speaking, "The Big Fat Rabbi Woman," is not the desired image, anyway.

If I were Avi Weiss (לא עלינו), I would simply grant his graduates professional doctorates (DHL, DD, DMin, etc.) in lieu of "ordination." All recognise the status of an earned doctorate, and it would be socially rude not to use the title that one legitimately possesses and prefers.

Now AARTS wouldn't touch Avi Weiss with a ten foot pole, but with some effort, I think he could affiliate and get the Middle States Assn or ATS to accredit his program, or work through an already-accredited school (Hebrew College, Gratz, BaltimoreHU etc) as an affiliated seminary.

[Chayim]

LOL
Unfortunatly Avi Weiss is going senile. He has had two heart attacks and if continues with his mishagas I wonder how his heart would last. Instead of building yiddishkeit,he is using his activities to tear down the future of his Riverdale flock. Its sad to see a human being fail so misraebly when he could of been a shining star. CHAREDI POWER NUMBER ONE.

[Chayim]

Women who are modern orthodox and are thinking of going into becoming Rabbas should be aware that most modern orthodox men are not compatible with you. You will limit your marriage prespectives because the modern orthodox men usually are not as learned as Chareidi men and dont relate well with Torah learned individuals. Also there is an increasing amout of men who are gay in these modern type strayed movements and this would leave the female Rabbas spinsters. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE.

[Michael Makovi]

This whole case is a perfect example for teaching about Daat Torah; see my blog at Daat Torah and Women's Semikhah (update)" at http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2010/03/daat-torah-and-womens-semikhah_07.html

[moshe berkovits]

OUCH bill
teaching ones daughter torah is akin to teaching her lewdness...
in all due respect...if our torah is so right, beautiful and holy what better thing can you teach your daughters.
pish posh....you're right rabbi's have so hurt us recently...
my children wanted to go to a shabbos minyan down the road...the women were leading it and wearing tallis'
i told my holy children that WE don't agree with that...we don't agree with women putting teffillin on etc. but i did teach my children to RESPECT the women who did. so off they went...knowing they wouldn't do that but learning how to respect ALL jews.
avi weiss is a two faced idiot.
some women rabbi's are better then men. times change...men have let us down...
should i name names? we all know who these shit rabbis are.
i'm not for women rabbi's but i wish i knew as much as i don't know.
chaim....when was the last time you got laid?
have a sweet week everyone.

[itchiemayer]

One can take isolated verses from Torah she'bichsav or Torah she'ba'al peh, and "prove" that the Torah is against men or that it is against women, or that it is for men or for women. Picking out isolated verses with no context proves absolutely nothing. I am not saying that with my limited knowledge there might not be some verses/statements that I find problematic, but simply stating random verses/statements to prove a point is very simpleminded. For example, the fact that a woman is not pure for 40 days after giving birth to a male child and not pure for 80! days after a female child could be used as "proof" of sexism (chas v'shalom)in the Torah against women. However, it actually demonstrates the spiritual superiority of women. Females contain more kedusha, holiness, than men, which renders the Mother not pure for a greater amount of time when having a female child, as the kedusha leaving her body is greater than when giving birth to a male child. On a side note, it means waiting longer before resuming having relations with your wife, so from a man's standpoint that isn't so great either. That last thought is not a Torah thought, just a practical one.
Really, Avi Weiss is a bit "eccentric" to say the least. I truly don't think he is the guy to change things in such a dramatic way, or even in minor ways. He is like the Ron Paul of the Republican party, or the Dennis Kucinich of the Democratic party. I can't take him too seriously.

[al Farabi]

This line of thinking goes back to the rambam who stated clearly in his guide that women are second class citizens. by the way, he also stated that "negroes" are between apes and man. how do you expect these fools to come up with anything sensible when they base their decisions on shit like that....

[moshe berkovits]

rabbis not rabbi's ...written as i woke up..many pardons

[Dr. Dave]

Rabbi Avi Shafran Says Women Rabbis Demean Women

Right.

Because it is so much less demeaning for these women to take shmattas from between their legs every month and give them to a strange rabbi to look at the blood stains.

I admit I would probably call the female rabbis rebbitzens at first till I got used to it, but halachically, there is nothing against it, other than so called "concerns about Tznius".

The concerns are acually more about males being shown up by smarter, more learned females and will lead to slander against the women(like the slander against Bruriah the wife of Rabbi Meir who showed up the rabbis repeatedly and in return they claim that she was seduced by a young talmid and comitted suicide)

[moshe berkovits]

AL FARABI you are kidding...negros are between apes and man...
oh man!!!!
oh my g-d.
and women are second class citizens...
i've never felt sorry for the rambam only respect...now i still respect him..can't help it...but feel sorry for him...
maybe he had a small penis and maybe he never met a black person or had one over his house.
have to have understanding...i'm trying...so.hard.

[Bill]

itchie,

these are not "isolated verses.". The Talmud and Halacha are replete with disgusting bigoted remarks about women.

[seymour]

itchie,

these are not "isolated verses.". The Talmud and Halacha are replete with disgusting bigoted remarks about women.

Posted by: Bill | March 07, 2010 at 08:00 AM

you are missing the point if the Torah or Talmud or raambam say things like that, means it is OK to think like that. and not only that that it is the ultimate truth.

You on the other hand have been effected by modern (non ultimate truth) so you think that you know better than g-d, and the people who had a direct link to him.

I don't believe in the crap I just wrote but that is an answer one might get from a true believer

[itchiemayer]

Bill - I stand by what I say. Your bias gets in the way of your seeing the truth.
At least my comments are measured and fair, yours only show bias against the Torah.

[friend]

[...]he also stated that "negroes" are between apes and man. how do you expect these fools to come up with anything sensible when they base their decisions on shit like that....

Posted by: al Farabi | March 07, 2010 at 07:05 AM

Your quote is misleading because it is out misquoted and is out of context.
Read the whole paragraph and you'll see that what he is saying is not racist:
Guide for the Perplexed, by Moses Maimonides, Friedländer tr. [1904],
CHAPTER 51 (secomd paragraph from the top)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp187.htm

[friend]

second*

[R]

I see the men are getting edgy that the women will be able to take over their so called hard jobs and not only that do a better job of it and most likely have a day job and look after the kids and the house.

[Rebitzman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...........

And they also say that Reform Jews caused the destruction of the Second Temple.

An a-hole being and a-hole is not news.

And Chayim? Welcome back, Archie.

[Bill]

"Bill - I stand by what I say. Your bias gets in the way of your seeing the truth.
At least my comments are measured and fair, yours only show bias against the Torah."

Posted by: itchiemayer

itchie, (and anyone else who thinks like him)

I am sending you Rule # 3 from my "Revised and Updated Hareidi Playboook for Winning Any Debate"

3. Try to explain things slowly. Remember that your adversary is not Hareidi so he or she, by definition, is not as mentally keen as you. You spend all day studying Talmud (except for occasional blogging to fend off the Nazis, the anti-Semites, and the Holocaust-deniers and promoters of various sorts, as per Rule 1 above). Consequently, your mind is perpetually and exponentially rendered keener by the infinite wisdom of the Talmud—i.e., you have a Gemoreh kop, whereas they go to college to “drink beer,” dance with shiksehs and play video games all day long. (They act like behaymehs and eat traif – which, as you know, dulls the mind.)

You are better educated and more intelligent than non-Hareidim. You have better insight and better judgment. Your level of mastery of Jewish history, mythology, law and culture rivals, nay, surpasses, that of any Ph.D.

Talmud is a debate. So you are the superior debater, and you know how to put things into proper “context.” Only a talmid chochem (i.e., you, i.e. a male Hareidi of Lithuanian descent) can provide the correct context for anything Jewish. (“Context” is key. Context is the spin that keeps the dreidel from falling down. Context shifts the discussion away from pesky “facts” (quote-unquote) and toward ideas and concepts, which is where victory lies.)....

[state of disgust]

What is sad is that Rabbi Wiess has chosen to relent to the likes of the Agudah.

Of course it is reasonable for him to do so since they probably threatened to not accept any of the graduates of his yeshiva as members of the Agudah and work to deny them access to pulpit jobs. Wiess was in no position to fight that kind of pressure and it would have done a disservice to those who have already rec'd smicha from his school, not to mention limiting the possibility of attracting new students.

[moshe berkovits]

great post bill...really good

[moshe berkovits]

dr. dave...best.post.ever.

[seymour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...........

And they also say that Reform Jews caused the destruction of the Second Temple.

An a-hole being and a-hole is not news.

And Chayim? Welcome back, Archie.

Posted by: Rebitzman | March 07, 2010 at 09:10 AM

you forgot who the heredeim blamed for the holocaust

[A. Nuran]

Umm, friend, I read the whole thing. It's just as bad "in context". He uses Black Africans in his simile because, according to him, they are less than human having human form but lacking reason.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but Moses ben Maimon, the Rambam, was full of shit on this one even if it was just in an offhand comment.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to John Lennon

Woman is the nigger of the shul
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the nigger of the shul
Think about it...do something about it

We make her hide her face and cook
If she won't be a slave, we say that it's is not frumkeit
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a rabbi
While putting her down, rabbis act with krumkeit

Woman is the nigger of the shul...yes she is
If you don't believe me, take a look at the what the rabbis hiss
Woman is the slave of the slaves
Ah, yeah...better schrei about it

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old baalabusta
We tell her mikveh is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unlearned to be our chevrusa

Woman is the nigger of the shul...yes she is
If you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Nu, look how they treated Avi Weiss!

We insult her every day in sermons
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be learned
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

Woman is the nigger of the shul
Yes she is...if you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yes she is...if you believe me, you better schrei about it

We make her hide her face and cook 5x

[Chayim]

Normal frum women are happy to be Chareidi. Just because they dont act like sluts like the liberal secular feminist do does not mean they are living in the dark ages. I see the depressed career oriented reform and conservative types who are dying to get married and have children. But in heaven they are being held back as the ultimate plan is to destroy the future of reform and conservative and modern orthodox heretical sects. The only way a girl from these watered down sects will marry if she becomes Chareidi and joins the future Israeli majority,the Chareidim. The mizrachi and settler types have many single girls in their 30s because the modern men are having a field day fooling around with one woman after the other woman.Only Chareidi marry in mass and have normal lives. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE

[zach]

Most orthodox rabbis are gay

And the poster "justsayin" is a moron.

[Sarah Silverman is my beshert !]

"women are demeaned and not honored when they’re put in the public eye and put on a pedestal. "

Idiot!, women are demeaned when they are force to have sex with Leib and Leba Tropper and the Satmar guy in order to get converted.

The RCA as it was mentioned before are bunch of eunuchs,(Stern College volleyball team has more balls than the Annual RCA Convention),

They accept graduates of Tropper like Yaakov Barros of Kol Yaakov and not graduates of YCT.

[Bill]

Women are demeaned when men take it upon themselves to decide where to "put" them.

[itchiemayer]

Bill - you have me read all wrong. You are the one who arrogantly acts so sure of yourself. Reread my very first comment at 6:54 AM. It is far more fair and balanced than anything you write.

[friend]

A. Nuran says:

Umm, friend, I read the whole thing. It's just as bad "in context". He uses Black Africans in his simile because, according to him, they are less than human having human form but lacking reason.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but Moses ben Maimon, the Rambam, was full of shit on this one even if it was just in an offhand comment.

Posted by: A. Nuran | March 07, 2010 at 10:37 AM

Al Farabi misquotes the Rambam to make him sound racist.

"he also stated that "negroes" are between apes and man."

The Rambam says nothing of the sort.:
he says:

"I will now explain the simile which I have made.
The people who are abroad are all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition. Such are the extreme Turks that wander about in the north, the Kushites who live in the south, and those in our country who are like these."

He talks about all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition.
and gives 3 examples Turks (who are white) Kushites (who are black) and "those in our country" (presumbaly Egypt) without listing their colors.
It is not a racist statement.
He says nowhere that either one of the examples he brings are impossible to educate and that they are permanently stuck at that level.
And as far as making a general statement about a whole group of people I don't think that it's anymore "racist" than saying something like "islamist countries don't abide by a modern notions of human rights" or that "3rd world countries are less technologically advanced" etc.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"women are demeaned and not honored when they’re put in the public eye and put on a pedestal. "

Women are demeaned when pictures of 12 and 13-year-old girls are not allowed in the school newsletter for "tnius" reasons. Thanks for turning my daughter into a sexual object.

[Apikorus]

I was a member of Hebrew Institute and can tell you that R. Weiss made a poor decision in hiring Sara Hurwitz as his standard bearer for feminist Orthodoxy. She does not have the temperament to be a Rabbi and is not a friendly person. She is knowledgeable, but her personal characteristics are not exemplary in the least. She also does not speak with much authority. A shame as there are a number of more qualified female candidates who could do a better job- Dina Najman Licht for one....

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

CS -
When I said "Penis cult" I didn't say anything about it being hard ;>)
Quite the contrary: The Orthodox Rabbiniate lacks balls, for if they truly had courage, they would have dealt with the plight of the agunah. The non-orthodox have had the balls to stand up against ancient and medieval stupidity, err...I mean against the world views of the Bible and Hazal, and the later interpreters who believe in the ongoing diminution of the generations ("Oy, we're nothing compared to the sages of the past!")

[Chicago Sam]

Dear Office,

My old friend, it's like the old joke: How many congregants does it take to screw in a light bulb? One, and nine to reminisce what the old light bulb used to be like--That's the whole problem with Orthodoxy in a nutshell.

[itchiemayer]

Apikorus - I don't know the Maharat so I would be interested in hearing other opinions from those that have had interactions with her. As I said earlier, the first one needs to be a Jackie Robinson, not a Ralph Garr. If she is nothing less than exemplary in her middos, then she is the wrong person to be the first. It would be difficult enough to be accepted if you were the Jackie Robinson of the orthodox world of women Rabbis, no chance of ever being accepted if you are anything less.

[Abracadabra]

The following items are only Halachos which apply to women. There are more.

There are also many parts of Gemara and commentaries about women, which are not written as halachic rulings, but are just as demeaning to women.

• Women are invalid witnesses.

• Women are invalid to judge.

• A daughter may be betrothed by her father at his will.

• A woman may not betroth her daughter.

• It is the father's right to betroth his daughter but not his son.

• A father may sell his daughter as a maidservant (if she is under age 12. But the Rambam says that this is only when the laws of Yovel are practiced, and only by a man who is impoverished, and then afterwards he has to redeem her after she is sold “to prevent shame to the family”).

• A woman is always subject to her father until she is subject to her husband (Ketubot 48a)

• Only a man can initiate marriage, a woman can not. Kiddushin 5b: "Our rabbis teach: How by money? If he gave her money or something worth money and said 'By this you are sanctified to me, by this you are betrothed to me, by this you are my wife' - she is married, but if she gave to him and said 'By this I am sanctified to you, by this I am betrothed to you, by this I am your wife' - she is not married.

• A married woman has no property or money of her own.

• A daughter does not inherit from her parents (when there are sons).

• The husband inherits from his wife, but the wife does not inherit from her husband.

• A woman does not inherit from her sons or daughters.

• A Kohen may not marry a harlot, a profaned woman, or divorcee.

• A divorced daughter of a Kohen is not worthy of marriage to a Kohen since she is not worthy of him in purity and because she is tainted.

• A Kohen who is divorced, had inappropriate sexual relations, or even one who has raped women is allowed to eat the terumah, work in the Holy Temple and marry “appropriate and pure women”.

• A woman does not do ritual slaughter because it is not the custom (a d’rabanan)

• A woman is not supposed to perform a circumcision if there is a Jewish man around who knows how (a d’rabanan)

• A woman is not supposed to read from the Torah in public (a d’rabanan)

• The reason given for a woman not reading from the Torah in public is “due to the public's honor” (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim, paragraph 282 section three)

• Women, slaves and minors are not counted towards an after-meal quorum (a d’rabanan) “If two men and a woman eat, the woman does not count.” (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim, paragraph 199, section six)

• When lives are in danger the man must be saved before the woman (a d’rabanan) (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, paragraph 252, section eight)

• Regarding the above the Taz wrote in subsection six: "This means that a man and a woman are in danger of drowning in the river…and it seems to me the reason is that the man is obligated to fulfill more commandments."

• But this one takes the cake (and the matza!): The Tosfot wrote on Tractate Pesachim 4b: "In any case, were checking for chametz from the Torah, we would not believe women because it is great effort and requires precision, as is evident from the Jerusalem Talmud, which explains that women are lazy." The Shach (Yoreh Deah, paragraph 127, subsection 30) expanded upon this: "In that which involves bother women should not be trusted, for women are lazy, as the Tosfot wrote [there] and thus I was taught, that women are not faithful koshering the hindquarters, for there is no greater bother, and due to their laziness they will not be too fastidious." And the Mishnah Berura (paragraph 437, subsection 18) concurred: "From the outset, one should not command these [women, slaves, and minors] to search [for chametz], since the search is a bother and one should be wary lest they become lazy."

[Abracadabra]

Oh, and how can I forget:

A woman is not allowed to divorce a man, only a man is allowed to divorce a woman.

Hence the agunah problem.

Halachically, women have little to no rights. If frum men do not take advantage of women, it is out of their humanity and/or the secular law of the land, not out of halachic obligation.

What was that Rabbi Shafran said about demeaning women...????

[Bill]

Abacadabra,

Excellent synthesis!

To this I would add that women are prohibited from wearing teffilin because "they are not careful about keeping their bodies clean." (Tosafot Eruvin 96a).

The Talmud also describes women as filthy, full of blood and excrement. (Talmud Shabbat 152a).

She stays home to raise a family, and he goes to yeshiva to
"lean" how filthy and lazy -she- is!

[Chayim]

According to the Torah women have it much easier.
A woman is allowed to shave her armpits and her pubic hairs.A man is forbidden.

According the Torah a woman can pierce her body and put on earings,nose rings etc, A man is forbidden.

According to the Torah women can sleep late and dont need to wake early for krias shema. A man cant oversleep.

According to the Torah only a male minor who is a rebel gets punished not a female minor.

According to the Torah women get 100 per cent partnership in their husbands Torah learning even if they did not study at all.

According to the Torah woman are on the level of kings,just as kings cannot be witnesses so too women.

A woman in the kitchen is like the kohen gadol in the temple. The Temple resembled a big kitchen.Men only recite the sacrafice order verbally while women reinact the actual practice in the kitchen,accept for demeaned women in Riverdale where they are lowere in rank.

CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE.

[Abracadabra]

Bill,

Thanks!

I'd like to add something to what you wrote:

Most of the women do NOT stay home, they go to WORK to support HIM and his children, while he sits in yeshiva, learning how filthy and lazy she is, and how she has no halachic rights whatsoever!

It's a very broken system.

[Chayim]

To abracadabra,
Women who marry kollel learning men do so because the are usually idealistic and are looking for a spiritual life. Rabbi Akiva 2000 years ago also had such a wife who left her wealthy fathers home to marry Rabbi Akiva and live for many years in dire poverty. To these fine women going to atlantic city or driving fancy cars is not their purpose or joy of life. To them raising CHAREIDI children is their joy. They enjoy Shabbos with their families and hearing divrei Torah not talk about silly movie stars who are big time losers. If you are lucky to have a fine modest and kind wife like that you are luckier than Obama and Donald Trump. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

A woman in the kitchen is like the kohen gadol in the temple. The Temple resembled a big kitchen.Men only recite the sacrafice order verbally while women reinact the actual practice in the kitchen,accept for demeaned women in Riverdale where they are lowere in rank.

OMG, I never thought of it that way. It's like when I drive my car west toward California, I am reenacting the Gold Rush of '49. Or if I go outside and fly a kite, I become an inventor, just like Ben Franklin.

[A E ANDERSON]

Ah, the Rambam, my fav haredi dude:

"
כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו, עושה - בועל בכל עת שירצה, ומנשק בכל אבר שירצה, ובא עליה בין כדרכה, בין שלא כדרכה’

Roughly translated,

"All that a man wishes to do with his wife, he may do. He may copulate with her at any time he wishes, and he may kiss any part of her, and he may do her frontally or in the anus...."
- Maimonides

Gotta give the old frenck some credit... he knew what his people wanted!

[who knows?]

Chayim you write: "According to the Torah woman are on the level of kings,just as kings cannot be witnesses so too women."

As usual you are missing the point. Kings can not be witnesses because they are always judges. Women are not allowed to be judges. There few more categories of people who are not allowed to be witnesses - minors, idiots, criminals. Women are likened in Talmud not to the kings, but to minors and and idiots.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

There is a position by a commentator on the Bavli I was shown that women can be counted after a meal for the quorum. They certainly count amongst themselves for this purpose - even states this in my Koren Siddur. It is also untrue that women are not valid witnesses in all cases; they are allowed to give testimony in business dealings as well as other areas. It's often hard to separate what is actually halacha vs. custom or common perception in these matters.

[Chayim]

Secular society has reduced women to brainless sex objects. When a woman dresses non tznius she is telling everyone that she is a brainless slut and that all men can try to seduce me. A woman wearing her short skirt is all to blame if she gets raped by some black dude on the street.If you saw a guy counting 100 thousand dollars on the street in cash and suddenly he gets robbed,even the police would say he is an idiot for counting so much cash in public. So too with a woman who dresses half naked. If she gets stalked and raped its her fault.
CHAREIDI POWER RULES

[shlomo zalman]

Please be tolerant of Chayim, he has not had use of his brain since his exposure to Rabbi Avigdor Miller's ignorance and stupidity.

[rebitzman]

"Women who marry kollel learning men do so because the are usually idealistic and are looking for a spiritual life. "

Actually, most that I know married kollel learning men because they had no say in the matter.

[Jeff Eyges]

According to the Torah women get 100 per cent partnership in their husbands Torah learning even if they did not study at all.

Chaim, does your wife get "100 per cent partnership" in your idiocy?