A Haredi Dayenu For Our Times

If haredim had only supported the convicted head of Agriprocessors, but did not also operate an underground organ trafficking operation, dayenu! It would have been enough!

Daas Hedyot has it all, here.

Print it out and sing it at your seder table tonight, just for fun.

Comments

[The Real Joe]

OK this guy either has a very organized computer or has nothing better to do with his life because that dayanu thing must have taken a lot of time to write any way I would like to take this opportunity to wish everybody on this blog including Shmaya a Happy and Kosher Passover I hope in the future this blog will focus on the right things that are wrong with the Charadi community today and not just jump on any little thing that happens

[A. Nuran]

It's interesting, and disgusting, to see all of this in one place. There's real rot at the core of Charedism. Let's hope they make teshuvah and return to Judaism.

And "Real Joe", are you a Catholic priest by any chance? You sound a lot like the Pope excusing priests who fuck little boys and belittling the victims. May your dreams be filled with the pain of the abused, the cheated, the forlorn and every other "little thing" that you brush off.

[harold]

How childish!

[The Real Joe]

A.Nuran I am honored to get such a blessing from an as-h-le like you it must mean I am writing something right if I get such a reaction like that from you, if you follow my comments even a bit you would know that I have never defended a Child Molester, even if it was one connected to my community, thankfully most people are not like you on this blog even the people who's opinions are totally deferent then me Gut Yom Tov everybody.

[HaNavon]

harold,
this is not childish, only because the evil actions and the lack of action against evil on behalf of the 'gedolim', may their names be quickly forgotten, is so terrible that a revolution must start before it's too late

[harold]

the 'gedolim', may their names be quickly forgotten

So let me ask, besides Scotty, who would you call a "leader" or someone who one can go to for halachic advice or in your eyes its everyone for themselves.

[Chareidi Doctor]

I feel bad for Scotty and people like him, that have nothing better to do than mock the few bad apples in the Chareidi world.

It's really pathetic that someone would take so much time and entergy to write up such a dayenu.

[Yochanan Lavie]

There are modern Orthodox rabbis who can advise one. No one needs to listen to chareidi katanim.

[harold]

There are modern Orthodox rabbis who can advise one. No one needs to listen to chareidi katanim

Some names would be appreciated.

[A. Nuran]

Joe, you are defending them. To you they're not "real" crimes. They're just "little things". By denigrating the crimes you defend the criminals.

[A. Nuran]

... and by defending the criminals you are a small part their evil.

[The Hedyot]

> ...the few bad apples in the Chareidi world...

This is a total distortion of reality. More than half the items in my list are infractions committed by those who are (or were) considered to be highly respected and prominent. R' Elyashuv, R' Kanievsky, The Spinka Rebbe, Tropper, Abuchatzeira, Avrohom Schorr, Avi Shafran, Dovid Cohen, Aaron Schecter, and others. Not to mention the actions of The Agudah, which is led by those referred to as the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah.

To write this off as "just a few bad apples" is simply another desperate attempt to ignore the reality that the leadership of this community is at best incompetent, and at worst, morally bankrupt.

[Shlomo]

Its not just that there are so called respected "Rabbis" that do these "abominations" its that they are not condemned at all by the chareidi leadership or community this implies an acceptance or that it not very important (talk about these things in some situations and you will be the one condemned)

[The Real Joe]

A. Nuran I am still waiting for you to show how I am "defending them" the only thing I wrote was that this whole Dayanu thing was a nice waste of time that it I never CH"V defended molesters and your welcome to make a search on comments I wrote on this blog I never wrote anything nice about a molester and I don't see myself doing that in the future

[Rachel]

Well done, Hedyot! Emil Zola had big shoes to fill, but this compilation should serve as a j'accuse to chareidi leadership. Wake up, chareidi rabbis, and smell the hypocrisy!

[who knows]

Harrasment and persecution of converts would be a good addition to the song.

Also robbery at the ballot box would fit the list.

[Bill]

Hedyot,

Superbly done, but I think you missed the most important "Dayenu":

The written and signed decision by a bet din, posted here on FM and presented as evidence in court, which called for obstruction of justice and witness tampering in connection with testimony in the Boruch lebowitz child molestation case.

I think that one tops them all in terms of recklessness, lawlessness, and immorality.

[yechiel]

After following this destructive site for quite some time it finally dawned on me; there are just a handful or two of grumpy old atheists (reading between the lines constantly gives me that impression) following and commenting on a steady basis. The object(ive) of this site is to belittle and shame an entire community which is in general a fine people for their sole sin: not sharing the smae belief as Shmarya and company. Good thing is that most levelheaded individuals vist this site, smile and continue on their way. Yes, there are issues which need to be dealt with but to condemn Charedi movement in its entirety is childish at best. What most of the negative minded people on this site lack is the fact that dina demalchuta is also a teaching of chaz"l and does not necessarily override other aspects of Halakha. In your quest to shame and belittle you overlook a) all the good our community has to offer. b) the fallacies of MO, reform, conservative and all other shvartz yuher... who claim that THEIR version of Judaism is THE correct one.
If I were to head a blog with the sole purpuse of racism I'd probably do much better than FM. I am sure to find plenty of chazerei in other communities that have been hushed or mishandled at best. Let's remember all men have faults. Same goes for entire communities. So get a life and stop getting annoyed at stuff you can't and won't change. Rather focus on yourself becoming a better jew in your serving G-d almighty.
Chag Kosher V'someach

[yechiel]

Purpose.

[The Hedyot]

> ...their sole sin: not sharing the same belief as Shmarya and company.

It's really amazing that even after reading that list people can think the main gripe with chareidim is that they don't subscribe to certain beliefs. Are you crazy? We're talking about violence, blackmail, adultery, defending murderers, corruption, fraud, child abuse, extortion, drug smuggling, organ trafficking, and other grievous crimes.

When are you going to realize this has nothing to do with what people believe, and everything to do with how people behave?

[The Hedyot]

Bill, can you provide a link to that issue please?

[Bill]

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/03/beit-din-ruling-meant-to-block-testimony-in-haredi-molesters-trial-345.html#more

[Bill]

"stop getting annoyed at stuff you can't and won't change" - yechiel

Au contraire,

Many of us were delighted to finally see that stiff prison sentences were handed down to some of these criminals, with some powerful new indictments in the pipeline.

Things our changing before our eye, and it's a beautiful sight.

[R]

I think it's a great addition to the passover seder.

[state of disgust]

"When are you going to realize this has nothing to do with what people believe, and everything to do with how people behave?"

Hedyot:
As rational human beings made b'tzelem Elohim, what people believe informs how people behave.
Of course that does assume we are talking about rational human beings.

[steve]

Hedyot,

A job well done. If it were in chronological order it would have been even better!

[yechiel]

Hedyot,
The crimes you mentioned are sad facts of life. Unfortunately all too many cases have gone unpunished. However you fail to understand that in religion there are other aspects to satisfy over one's thirst for revenge. Of course in your hatred and bigotry you can't fathom the idea that there are more important clauses in Halacha other than that one worn out and abused term 'dina demalchuta' so beloved by the MO etc. This is all you really have. Yup, your entire religion summed up in two words: dina demalchuta.
Where I'm going with all this? Simple. I am not arguing whether the chareidi way of dealing with issues is right or wrong. This is an intellectual discussion which I know is a waste of time to discuss once you have made up your mind. One thing's for sure; your motive is to destroy a community which does not share your distorted views and limited beliefs. However right your arguments may be, your motives are what I'm after. The fact that you chose Chareidim as your sole target is proof of my point.

Chag Sameach

[yechiel]

Last but not least, I believe in being righteous, working hard for an honest living and contributing your share into the system. That is what I practice. However, the government is corrupt. So are our local elected officials. Wherever you turn corruption reigns. It is precisely for that reason that people from all walks of life take advantage of this failed system. Period. End of story.
As far as abuse of all sorts is concerned there is no excuse. It is a problem in all environments and cultures. Locking people up may quelch the fire and fury of the victims but is not necessarily the solution for treating the abuser or the guarantee for nor no recurrence. The answer? It's not a simple one. One thing's for sure people who spend most of their time on the blogesphere have no professional opinion. So it should not be taken seriously.

Chag Sameach

[yechiel]

Typo: blogosphere.

[Abracadabra]

Hedyot,

That was excellent!!

[Abracadabra]

Yechiel –

You suggest that because, to quote you: "Government is corrupt", then it is then okay to "Take advantage of the system". First, you are mistaken in saying that ALL of government is corrupt. There are some local and even some state governments that are corrupt, but the USA is by far the most UNcorrupt and straightforward federal government in the world. The rest of the world is jealous of the USA for that reason alone. Second, it is NOT okay to "take advantage" of any government at any time. It is called theft. It is against the Torah. You might want to spend loads of hours with your Gemaras and Tosfos trying to figure out how you can possibly make it mutar. But the Modern Orthodox know that there is NO heter in the world for it. It is plainly assur. And btw, the Modern Orthodox have a load of other parts of Torah that is kept, aside from "Dinah D'malchusa Dina", such as Shabbos, Kashrus, Taharas Hamishpacha, and many more important ones, like Lo Tignov, etc. Funny, how all those crimes and scandals in the Chareidi world are not found in the Modern Orthodox world. And if ANY are to be found, they are certainly proportionately a miniscule fraction in comparison. Kind of makes you wonder, huh?

Next, you say that "Locking people up... is not necessarily the solution for treating the abuser or the guarantee for no recurrence." Huh??? Locking up an abuser IS the ONLY guarantee that they will not commit the crime again, because they can't get near any children if they are in prison!

And, of course, you ignore the rest of the crimes committed and shameful acts on the list, which are considered disgusting if done by anyone of ANY religious sect, nevermind that they were done or defended by the LEADERS of the Chareidi community - such as violence, blackmail, adultery, defending a murderer, corruption, fraud, extortion, drug smuggling, etc.

The fact is that Chareidi leadership is pathetic, and that's what this blog is showing. This blog is not, as you claim, here to "destroy a community". The Chareidi community is destroying ITSELF! This blog is showing HOW the Chareidi community is destroying itself!!

If you cared one iota about the Chareidi community, instead of sitting here spewing your empty defenses of it, you would organize your friends and relatives, discuss all these issues, and come up with ways to initiate change.

If you're waiting for your "Gedolim" to give you the green light to change things, you'll be waiting l'olam va'ed. The "Gedolim" will NEVER change things because they are either manipulated by power-hungry, and money-hungry, corrupt theocrats, or are themselves drunk on the power you have given them and have themselves become thoroughly corrupt.

The Torah does NOT support us having a Pope who is an extension of "God on Earth". That is Catholicism. If you want that - the Catholics would be happy to welcome you into their fold. Jews have FALIBLE leaders who MUST admit when they make mistakes. If they do not admit when they make mistakes, then they are suspect and we must insist on a change of leadership.

You can live in the clouds all you want, but if your kids ever go off the derech because they see through all the lies, or are hurt either directly or indirectly by the Chareidi leadership that you defend, you will then WISH they would be Modern Orthodox, and wonder why the Chareidi leadership can not function more like the Modern Orthodox leadership. If you ever become a victim of Chareidi leadership, and your pleas for truth fall on their deaf ears, you will wonder why you ever defended them.

[yechiel]

A gut moed abracadabra.

I am well aware of what is going on in my community. You read my comment yet failed to notice what my beliefs are. I believe in being honest, working hard and caring for a fellow man. Unfortunately people get too caught up with themselves... I talk to people and voice my opinion and try to persuade them to follow suit.

You mention how great our government is and I concede. However corruption does exist on a very large scale. By corrupt I mean in being dishonest in money matters etc. We are way overtaxed and our officials do nothing to help solve that. I know you will argue your view on this matter and say that I know nothing about finances etc. but the fact is that hard working people never get a break and never have time to appreciate their money. Yet government officials have plenty of both...

Now, regarding modern orthodox: I am employed by one. He is in my opinion a very upstanding guy. However, regarding yiddishkeit I've heard some of his thoughts and beliefs. To the effect that 'as long as I am honest to people nothing else really matters'...
That is where I'm coming from. Someone who publicly follows halakha (limited to MO beliefs) yet has such thoughts suggests that in private he may not even keep kosher.
There are good and bad in every denomenation. It would be nice to try and perfect ourselves and our own community rather than finding faults in one particular community and enjoying its demise.
Basically if your total success is based on others' failures your not exactly a success... get my drift?

Chag Sameach

[yechiel]

Correction: you're not exactly a success.

Also, in regard to locking up abusers you are correct that during time served thay cannot commit any crimes but when they get out their inclinations and habits don't change. Professional help has better chances at that. And that is what many are suggesting and doing. The authorities once again are a screwup. They are clueless and just seek publicity regardless of whether they're solving the problem or not.

[Shmarya]

Please.

Therapy for pedophilia has a success rate of less than 7%..

[yechiel]

Therapy has less than 7% success rate...
...and prison guaranteed 0 repeat offenses after prisoner was released. Uhuh... So unless you lock 'em up and throw away the keys you accomplished nothing. Just a burden on the taxpayer and the family of the accused. There are just some things that prison is not a deterrent to. Habitual behavior is not deterred by prison. It's just the feel good solution and short lived.
If the system offered a long term solution... I'd be all for it.

Chag Sameach

[Shmarya]

Please.

Prison means the offender is on the National sex offender registry, which means on release, his neighbors know what he did. And that reduces the number of repeat offenses.

Past that, convicted sex offenders usually get therapy while in prison.

Process that.

[yechiel]

Shmarya, you say "past that, convicted sex offenders usually get therapy while in prison." In an earlier post you mentioned that therapy has a very low success rate of less than 7%. Why bother? I'm confused...
By the way there are plenty ways around the so called registry...
Look, I'm as frustrated as you are in regard to some of the stuff going on in our community. I don't have all the answers. At least I know it. Though, I do speak to people all the time and try to broaden their spectrum of thought...
However, seeking revenge for the mere purpose of revenge is childish. Intellectually the main objective should be to ensure no recurrence.
I sense that you are off track on that matter. Your cause seems to be revenge with no vision towards being constructive.
If every time a chareidi gets arrested it's party time for you, something is very wrong. Although I believe that crimes should not go unpunished, I do not celebrate another jew's (regardless of faith...) downfall. Maybe it's time to rethink your approach.

A happy and healthy summer.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, you say "past that, convicted sex offenders usually get therapy while in prison." In an earlier post you mentioned that therapy has a very low success rate of less than 7%. Why bother? I'm confused..

Clearly.

They get therapy because the it reduces the recidivism rate by a small amount, and that saves some lives.

seeking revenge for the mere purpose of revenge is childish. Intellectually the main objective should be to ensure no recurrence.

A pedophile in prison cannot rape children. That means imprisoning pedophiles saves lives.