RCA Said Ready To Oust Rabbi Avi Weiss

The word on the street is that the Rabbinical Council of America, the largest mainstream Orthodox rabbinical group, is getting ready to come down hard on Rabbi Avi Weiss primarily for ordaining a woman rabbi, Sara Hurwitz, whom he calls a “rabba.”

The Rabbinical Council of America is rumored to be ready to haul Rabbi Avi Weiss before its disciplinary board
by Jonathan Mark • New York Jewish Week

The word on the street is that the Rabbinical Council of America, the largest mainstream Orthodox rabbinical group, is getting ready to come down hard on Rabbi Avi Weiss, perhaps to expel him, primarily for ordaining a woman rabbi, Sara Hurwitz, whom he calls a “rabba.”

The RCA considers women rabbis a violation of Orthodoxy.

Is the RCA about to haul Rabbi Weiss before its Vaad HaKavod, the committee charged with investigating “allegations of improprieties,” the first step in expulsion or discipline? The RCA’s executive director, Rabbi Basil Herring, was somewhat coy. Rabbi Weiss is not under investigation “at present,” he e-mailed.

However, a source employed by one of Rabbi Weiss’ enterprises confirmed, “the RCA is considering kicking out Avi Weiss.”

Rabbi Weiss has never denied that he is committed to women rabbis. In 2009, he founded Yeshivat Maharat, where Rabba Hurwitz is the dean, “to produce women Orthodox rabbinic authorities.” He says Rabba Hurwitz is a full member of his “rabbinic staff” at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, where he is senior rabbi.

The RCA has been closing in on Rabbi Weiss for several years, declaring that no rabbi ordained by Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, a men’s rabbinical school founded by Rabbi Weiss, can be even be considered for RCA membership. For many mainstream Orthodox synagogues, an RCA denial of membership is equivalent to a denial of YCT’s basic Orthodox credentials.

There have been reports of RCA rabbis lobbying synagogues not to hire rabbis ordained by YCT, a reflection of what they think of Rabbi Weiss’ standards.

In a twist, one Rabbi Weiss school, YCT, won’t recognize the rabbinic credentials of the other Rabbi Weiss school, Yeshivat Maharat, with Rabba Hurwitz being denied membership in the International Rabbinic Fellowship, also founded by Rabbi Weiss and primarily composed of YCT rabbis.

Equally ironic, Rabbi Marc Angel, who has allied himself with the IRF, was president of the RCA in the 1980s when the RCA first attempted to strip Rabbi Weiss, as well as Rabbi Yitz Greenberg, of membership, before calling off the move when the backstage brawl became public.

According to one source in Rabbi Weiss’ yeshivas, the ordaining of Rabba Hurwitz (first as something called “maharat,” then more explicitly as “rabba”) has created a situation in which “we are being absolutely killed on the Internet,” in Orthodox blogs. “Where are the moderate and moderating voices in the Orthodox community?” the source asked.

Comments

[harold]

I have no problem with a female rabbi, but would have a problem with a female pulpit rabbi. Having the rabbi "behind the mehitza" is a little strange. Hey, maybe she can have one of those airline "Personal Mehitza" around her. You see one can find a use for them!

[Bilaam's Ass]

The 'gedolim' - "Woman is a sack of shit and her mouth is full of blood, but all run after her" (Shabbat 152a)

[Jon]

Come on, Shmarya - this piece has less actual content than the Balkany one.

[Pierre]

what ever happened to the Fellowship of Traditional Orthodox Rabbis, the proto-IRF crowd of RCA members who were rabbis of mixed-seating shuls and other LWMO rabbis? I'm sure some are members of Weiss' crowd and UTJ, but weren't there many more such people? Are they still RCA members?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

The 'gedolim' - "Woman is a sack of shit and her mouth is full of blood, but all run after her" (Shabbat 152a)

I wonder if anyone has written a sefer that expounds on that piece of wisdom.

[Shmarya]

Come on, Shmarya - this piece has less actual content than the Balkany one.

I know. And it's poorly reported, as well.

Mark is a biased reporter with a spotty track record. Yet, like Dickter, he's a JW editor. Doesn't say much for the JW.

[Sarah Silverman is my beshert !]

The RCA are bunch of eunuchs (Stern College volleyball team has more balls than the Annual RCA Convention), The fearless herring warrior was sending this letters to Tropper praising him and kissing his ass so Tropper would be more gentle with the RCA.

They are very brave to go against their own people like rabbi Lookstein and rabbi Weiss but for haredi rabbis they will bend over just not to upset them.

[Shaul in Monsey]

Stern College volleyball team has more balls than the Annual RCA Convention

Well said. The RCA is a bigger waste than my stool.

[dave]

^ Agreed. If RCA spent more time dealing with Rabbis who sexually abuse and assault those who they have control over the Orthodox and Jewish world would be in better shape.

Tropper, Elon, Balkany along with the Chumros obsessed like Elyashiv constitute a much greater threat than Avi Weiss and his desire to work within Halacha to help people instead of hurt them.

[Big Jew]

To Bilaam's ass and Nigritude Ultramarine

Unfortunately you have taken the statement completely out of context. This reminds me of the person who decided he could not possibly accept Yiddishkeit because he had read in Bameh Madlikin on Friday evening that women died in childbirth on account of being lax regarding the Mitzvos of Chalah, Nidah, and Hadlakas ha'Ner. Only a cruel and illogical religion could prescribe the death penalty for such minor
offences. Anyone who believes that, he said, must be quite unbalanced. But he has taken it completely out of context without understanding the wider picture or the basic intent of this dictum of Chazal. So too here. The Gemara is not defining a woman or her attributes any more than the prophet Yeshayah is doing so (4:4) when he describes Hashem washing away the filth of the daughters of Zion and the blood of Jerusalem. Or Akavya ben Mahalalel who said (Avos 3:1) that man comes from a putrid drop or Koheles (3:19) who writes that man is no better than a beast. And Chulin (5a,b) regarding men who are the equivalent of animals, or Vayikra Rabah 15:2 based on Iyov 28:25 that a man is half-water, half-blood and if there is any imbalance he becomes an Adripikos (a dropsy sufferer) or a Metzora. Each of these statements is not intended to be derogatory to humankind generally but merely to illustrate a particular point. And it is the same here. The Gemara you quoted (Shabbos 152a) is attempting to show the infirmity of man in a series of situations. Verses from Koheles are quoted to show what happens in man's old age. He becomes weak and tired and his body can no longer function efficiently. The greatest Amora, Rav, groaned in the presence of Rav Kahana since he could no longer father children. Rav Kahana proceeded to make a deep philosophical observation on Hashem's construction and control over His creation. He points out that notwithstanding the fact that a human being finds semen and blood repulsive and that the place of intercourse exudes menstrual fluids, blood, urine and excrement (this is where he likens a woman to a container full of dirt with its openings full of [vaginal] blood), nonetheless, quite illogically, a man runs after her. This is how Hashem arranged that procreation should take place. This is his interpretation of the verse in Tehilim 33:9 which is defining Hashem's control over the universe. He ordered the creation of woman but no child would have been born had He not also given the order for man's desire for a woman to override his sensitivity to her repulsive aspects. In fact the Jewish approach to intercourse as being an act of great holiness and purity is in stark contrast to the attitude of another religion which advocates celibacy as a preference and considers the sexual act to be dirty rather than pure. Rav Kahana is illustrating that when Hashem sanctions something it becomes purified and welcome, completely overriding one's a priori, and perhaps even natural, propensity to repugnancy. In summation, there is nothing derogatory in this Gemara about women. It is simply a clinical description given for the purpose of the lesson to be derived. Just as in the other cases I have quoted above, no one would take the slightest umbrage at the comparison between a man and an animal or the attribution of filth and blood to the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem, in the context in which the statements were made, so too this statement must be understood in its own context. Kol Tuv, Joseph Pearlman >>><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at

[Neo-Conservaguy]

What's ironic about this situation is that, having dealt with one of R. Weiss's female halachic advisers, I can tell you the RCA would love how intense and neo-charedi are some of their positions. These are not slacker women.

As for YCT rabbis, I expect to see them hired at more and more "Orthodox" congregations outside of the big urban areas that are realizing that "Orthodoxy" has left them behind in it's lurching to the right over the past few decades. The YU/RCA is, simply put, not their father's Orthodoxy.

[critical minyan]

The RCA is semi-corrupt.

[shneerhere]

Big Jew:
what do you expect? Bilaam's Ass is a self-described Conservative rabbi. You can see how much decorum he has in translating Talmudic 'dung' into 'shit'. Your analysis is right on. Too bad a couple of years at JTS doesn't teach much more than Talmud Lite and social work.

[Young Israel Rabbi]

Ironically, this is the issue over which David Weiss-HaLivny left the Cemetery...ooppss..I mean Seminary.

[itchiemayer]

I'm just saying....the first woman Rabbi should be the right one, and perhaps Maharat Sara is not. For example, when looking at her I see way more than a tefach of hair showing and a relatively low neckline. Certainly a neckline not becoming of the first woman Rabbi. The first needs to be a Jackie Robinson, not a Ralph Garr. Ralph Garr was a reasonably good player in the early to mid 70's, but he was no Jackie Robinson. Again, I'm just sayin....Now, if my daughter turns out as religious as the Maharat, I will be fine with that because I am sure the Maharat is a true Bas Yisroel. However, I don't think she is the one to be the first Rabbi of the female persuasion. The first should set the standard in every way. Alright, I'm sure I will take a beating on this one, so fire away...

[itchiemayer]

I want to emphasize that I do not judge any woman by how much hair they show or their necklines. However, a Maharat or a Rabah or a Rabbi, in my somewhat humble opinion, should be held to a higher standard. Kal v'chomer, the very first one.

[Rachel]

tchiemayer -

So "the more covered" - the "higher the standard?" This is a very poor scale to use, for a man rabbi, the "longer the beard"...

[Bilaam's Ass]

for the tortured Apologists 1. keep drinking the haredi kool-aid 2. put your boys in torah temimah and 3. sell your daughters; And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave..." (Exodus 21:7).

[itchiemayer]

Rachel - again, to be the first one I do think that person should take on more stringencies for themselves. "the less covered", the "lower the standard".

The beard does not make the man. However, a long beard on a tzaddik is rather majestic. Sadly, there are not many of them around anymore. A lot of long beards, but not many tzaddikim.

Frankly, I don't want to see my (male) Rabbi in shorts and a t-shirt. I expect him to dress dignified, and certainly hold him to a higher standard than others. so yes, I would hold my female Rabbis to the same high standard, all the moreso the very first female Rabbi!

[Larry]

Maybe she should shave her head and wear only dark stockings like a "good" BY graduate?!?!?! She should not show that she is a human being in any way -- we want her to be the same high standard as this generation's "gedolim" Tropper, and all the rest!! In about 10-20 years when the charedi world will no longer be able to beg, borrow and steal to provide a Jewish education, the pendulum will start to come back and in 30-40 years Rabbi Weiss and Raba Hurwitz will be appreciated for what they will have done -- the beginning of saving orthodoxy from itself.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Aretha Franklin;

Fressing out on the Kiddush chrayn
I used to feel uninspired
And when I knew I had to face another rabbi
L-rd, it made me feel so tired
Before the day I met you, halacha was so machmir
But your psak got me out of a snare

Cause you make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like
A maternal rabbi

When my neshome was poskined hefker
You came along to claim it
I didn't know what was wrong with females
Till your school helped ordain one
Now I'm no longer doubtful of what I'm davening for
'Cause as a rabba I don't need much more

'Cause you make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like
A maternal rabbi

Oh, Avi, what you've done to me
You made me a rabba now
And I just want to be close to Jews
You make me wanna daven aloud

'Cause you make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like
A maternal rabbi

[Mo]

"The RCA are bunch of eunuchs"

The whole Torah world knew of Mordecai Tendler's sexual abuse of women. The issue was raised with rabbonim and organizations around the globe for many years, and no one did anything because Tendler was famous and very powerful.

The RCA took a huge risk, and led the effort to have Tendler thrown out of Orthodoxy. I give them tremendous credit.

[Jason]

Part of me hopes they do throw Rabbi Weiss out, and that the "ban" on YCT grads continues. This might be just what is needed to shake things up in modern Orthodoxy and give people an alternative to the prevailing craziness of chumra upon chumra.

My experiences with YCT rabbis tells me that these guys are onto something important that is currently missing from the MO world. Too bad YU will blacklist any shul hiring a YCT rabbi, preventing the shul from ever hiring a rabbi through YU in the future in the event their YCT rabbi leaves.

[Sarah Silverman is my beshert !]

The RCA took a huge risk, and led the effort to have Tendler thrown out of Orthodoxy. I give them tremendous credit.

They only did it because rav Blau made them do it, They do not deserve any credit, actually some of the "beards" in the RCA tried to stall the investigation.

They were shaking of fear from Tropper until some single mom hillbilly girl (who is modern day Yael or Judith) had the balls to stop him.

[Chayim]

We must stop this outragous rebellion against Judaism that these extreme modern orthodox clansman are trying to do. Turning women into Rabbis is only a slap against the authentic Jewish faith. The modern orthodox rabbas will have a hard timer getting married because the modern orthodox men are usually not as learned in the Talmudic field. And with their obssesion on legitimizing homosexuality ,many will not be interested in the lady Rabbas. So lady Rabbas will have little choice but to marry chareidim who will retrain them how to be good rebetzins. Watch and see. Chareidi power number one.

[Sarah K]

Homosexuality does not need to be "legitimized" b/c there is nothing illegitimate about it, except when it is forced on someone like so many Orthodox and harredi rabbis do to young boys.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

My experiences with YCT rabbis tells me that these guys are onto something important that is currently missing from the MO world. Too bad YU will blacklist any shul hiring a YCT rabbi, preventing the shul from ever hiring a rabbi through YU in the future in the event their YCT rabbi leaves.

We'll see how long that "blacklist" lasts as pulpit jobs in MO shuls become more scarce.

[rabbidw]

To the RCA membership. The RCA was founded when the European born Rabbis would not let the American born Rabbis into their organizations. Why not? Because the American born Rabbis spoke English and the Congregations wanted Rabbis who spoke English. So the European born Rabbis did not want to learn English, they thought they could monopolize the job market by banning the American born Rabbis. Now there are many Congregations that want Rabbis trained in critical thinking, in Pastoral counseling, in modern thought. The Congrfegations will get what they want. Wait for a few big Congregations to pull out of the OU and see what happens.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I wonder how the Union for Traditional Judaism will react to Avi Weiss.

[Aharon Varady]

I've learned with R' Sara Hurwitz twice now, at Limmud NY and last week at Yeshivat Hadar and can speak from experience that she is an excellent teacher and very well spoken. Really, her gender should have nothing to say to her qualifications as a community leader and halakhic authority. Indeed, R' Sara is better educated than many of the young male orthodox rabbis I've known. It would be wise for most folks here to judge everyone on their merits, rather than their chromosomes.

[Bilaam's Ass]

For the revisionists who insist the Torah & Talmud respect women.

1. God not only sanctions selling ones daughter into slavery, but he also gives out laws on how it should be done. Exodus 21:7

2. If a man has sex with a slave or betrothed woman he must “scourge” her. Scourging is a term for a severe flogging or whipping. CONTEXT: the woman shall be punished to the point of a beating for such an occurrence, yet the man gets to go free for = deed. Leviticus 19:20

3. Unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. CONTEXT: What about his unchaste sons? This isn’t answered in the Torah, we are to assume yet again that men have the power to do as they wish and a woman suffers the punishment. Leviticus 21:9

4. Places a Monetary value on human life; with women worth less than men. Leviticus 27:3-7

5. Women, be sure to keep the tokens of your virginity-Otherwise the men of your city may stone you to death. CONTEXT: This does not apply to men though, of course. What is interesting to note here is the actual wording, it says : “that if a man hateth his wife he may say she did not have the tokens of her virginity”. Since there is no way a woman can truly prove she had a hymen upon marriage the word rests on the husband and she can be disposed of simply when he tires of her. Deuteronomy 22:13

6. Finally - one of the most cruel and sexist passages of the Torah. It says that women who are raped and fail to “cry out loud” in a populated area are most likely enjoying the attack should be killed. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 Talmud seconds this.

I could go on and please insult our intelligence by saying its out of context and write 35 lines w/o providing one.

[Big Jew]

Bilaam's Ass
Everything you quoted is either taken out of context or you do not understand the reasoning behind it and once you do you would see its a positive not a negative.

I won't respond to these although I can give a rebuttal to each one. Instead I will try something else. Ill bring you positive quotes about women that will make it clear that the Torah not only respects women, but holds them in very high esteem more than any other religion or society.

Greater is the reward to be given by the All-Mighty to the (righteous) women than to (righteous) men
Berakhot 17a.

A man without a wife lives without joy, blessing, and good; a man should love his wife as himself and respect her more than himself.
Yevamot 62b. (This one alone is incredible love her like yourself respect her more than yourself think about that I shouldn't need to post more after that one but I will)

When Rav Joseph heard his mother's footsteps he would say: Let me arise before the approach of the divine presence. (Kiddushin 31b)

Israel was redeemed from Egypt by virtue of its (Israel's) righteous women (Sotah 11b) (How do you like that?! Amazing!)

A man must be careful never to speak slightingly to his wife because women are prone to tears and sensitive to wrong[ Bava Metzia 59a] (yeah that says never!!!)

Women have greater faith than men (Sifre 133)

Women have greater powers of discernment [Nidah 45b]

Women are especially tenderhearted (Megillah 14b)

Then we have:
The husband has a Torah obligation (yes an obligation!) to make his wife happy with intimacy. One who refuses is a sinner, just as one who does not put on tephilin or who does not wear tsitsis. However, he is worse, because while one can repent for not wearing tephilin or tsitsis, one cannot repent for paining his wife, because sins between man and his fellow cannot be atoned for by penitence, only by the forgiveness of the offended party.

Translation of Excerpt from Ketubah
"The obligation of this ketubah, this dowry and this additional sum, I accept upon myself and my heirs after me, to be paid from all the best part of all my property that I now possess or may hereafter acquire, real and personal.  From this day forward, all my property, even the shirt on my back, shall be mortgaged and liened for the payment of this ketubah, dowry and additional sum, whether during my lifetime or thereafter."  The obligation of this ketubah, this dowry and this additional sum, was accepted by ______________ the groom with the strictness established for ketubot and additional sums customary for the daughters of Israel, in accordance with the decrees by our sages, of blessed memory. 

Every man marrying a virgin HAD to give 200 Zuz. That was a LOT of money in those days. It was enough to support her for 8 years!
I think its clear that the Torah and the Rabbis have the UTMOST respect for women and makes sure that a married women is treated in the most superb way imaginable. I mean tell a guy today to respect his wife MORE than himself. Tell a guy he can't ever make his wife cry. Tell a guy its his obligation to make his wife happy. Its abundantly clear that the Torah values women and puts them on a pedestal. If anything its nearly impossible to fulfill the requirements of a man to his wife as they are set to such a high level. Its actually a lot better to be a woman in Torah life. They are exempt from most commandments and they have to be treated like a queen by their husbands in all areas. If anything the men get a raw deal. So please stop with your anti Torah nonsense. The Torah way of life is what's best for both man and women as it was written by G-d who created them and knows their true natures. I hope I have made things clearer for you.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Big Jew, you will never convince BA. However, I believe that it is important that you address the issues for the benefit of others. His comments are extremely offensive and I thank you for taking the time to address them.

[Bilaam's Ass]

BJ your selective apologist quotes and drash still do not answer the question of why rabbis call women the vilest names. Why did the Shabbat Tanna not find another way to express this thought? Men are never called this, a worm or beast is a long way from excrement.
Furthermore men are never called reptiles. Beasts, asses yes, but never worthless unless they are gentiles or slaves.

Chazal in Pesachim 49b: "One should not marry a daughter of Am haaretz, for they are an abomination, and their women are like reptiles, and of their daughters the Scripture said, 'Cursed is he who lies with any animal (Deuteronomy 27:21)." Women here are called reptiles and animals, not because their Own faults, but solely because their husbands or fathers are not meticulous in fulfilling some commandments. And here is what the Gemara says of an am haaretz himself: "Rabbi Eleazar said: one is permitted to slay an am haaretz on the Day of Atonement which occurs on Sabbath. His disciples said to him: Rabbi, cannot you say 'to slaughter like an animal' [which is a less offensive expression]? He answered: no, since a blessing is needed for the ritual slaughter, but no blessing is needed on [slaying] an am haaretz" (Pesachim 49b). This statement as you claim might be intended to prevent men from extreme lust, but Chazal could have chosen a much less offensive phrase to express that idea. Where is the Lashon Naki? Where is the Rahmanut? finally bringing other quotes do not address mine directly and are a typical avoidance device used by apologists.

[Big Jew]

Bilaams Ass
There is a concept of Lashon Nekiyah and a Concept of Loshon Ketzara. Besides for that there are many other rules to Talmud study such as taking things in context with what else is being discussed on that folio and seeing how it fits in. I already explained the Shabbos gemara in very clear terms. The Gemara will use the best word available to convey an idea regardless of our 21st Century sensitivities. The Talmud can convey pages of information with one word. That's the beauty and brilliance of it. Look at the Rishonims explanations of the Talmud, often they go on for a few pages to elaborate on a few words of the text.

Now one has an option of being narrowminded and saying "but look the Rabbi said they are containers full of dirt and their mouths (openings) are full of blood. Or other similar seemingly offensive quotes, or one can be a scholar and sit down and think about the passage in reference to the context of what the Gemara is trying to convey and see what it really means. Talmud/Gemara means learn, not translate. If you just translate the Gemara without using thought and logical reasoning then the Talmud will make zero sense to you. You insult the Gemara and your own intelligence as well as evryone elses by suggesting that. Talmud is like a story book that you just read and say there I got it I know what it is saying.

The Gemara has endless depth. Have you ever learned the Gemara about R Yochanan and Reish Lakish. It says there that after Reish Lakish died R Yochanan grieved heavily over the loss of Reish Lakish, the other Rabbis sent R Eliezer to replace Reish Lakish as a Talmid because he was known to be sharp. However Rav Yochanan refused to be consoled. He said "while you bring supports to everything I say (I don't need that I know I am saying the right Halacha), Reish Lakish used to ask me 24 questions on everything I said and I would answer him 24 answers and that way Torah learning was increased. The Gemara goes on to say how Rav Yochanan couldn't get over the loss of his prized pupil and went crazy so the Rabbis prayed that he should be niftar.

I remember in my Yeshiva days where on certain tough Gemaros we could spend a week on a few lines delving deeper and deeper. The Meforshim did a lot of the work for us. Next time you learn Gemara take advantage of a Rashi, Tosafos, Rashba, Ramban, Rfitva, Ran, Maharsha, Pnei Yehoshua....

[Bilaam's Ass]

BJ, Again, you avoid addressing the use of the bavli's evil terms, views and Halakha that women are excrement and reptiles, no terms ever used on men. I too was yomam V'laila, so what ? Your apologetics that he said woman is excrement 'concisely' is no answer as the Tanna could have used a different description for the Tehillim Pasuk pithily and easily. You also avoided addressing the patent evil of killing an Am ha'aretz... You are also intellectually dishonest by using ad hominem personal attacks and insinuation, circular reasoning, appeal to authority and avoidance. Intellectually dishonest because your quotes are ripped out of a macro context. One example, When Rav Joseph heard his mother's footsteps he would say: Let me arise before the approach of the divine presence. (Kiddushin 31b) The Gemara's sugya is but talking about Kivood Av Va'em, honoring ones parents and that is the sugya's contextual discussion period. It is also intellectually dishonest to selectively choose but the p.c. , BT. quotes about ones wife while covering up the others.

Globally in ortho Halakha -Women are but chattel in the ortho version of torah, The basic, first attitude towards them may be seen in the first mishnahs of Kiddushin: "A woman is bought (bkinyan)) in three ways... with money, with a contract, and through intercourse... a couple being wed is seen by Halacha as an act of clear Purchase in which a man Buys himself a wife -- and the laws of this purchase are with the laws of other purchases: of slaves, of cattle, and the like. in all concerning interpersonal relations Halachic sources actually treat her as her husband's Servant and to claim otherwise is false:

"The woman has no value in and of herself in Creation, for she is only something additional to the main entity [i.e. man], taken from him and designed to serve him. That is why our rabbis OBM called her 'a tail' (in Berachot 61a)." (Rashba's Responsa, part 1, paragraph 60)

The Rambam rules clearly "If any woman abstains from doing the work she ought to do [to serve her husband], one should force her to do it, even with a whip." (Maimonides, Laws of Interpersonal relations 21:10)

I know you will try the A king's daughter, all her honor is inwards" (Psalms 45:14) propoganda line, so lets cut to the chase. Pshat- simple meaning has nothing to do with a king's daughter's honor. Yes, youve been fed a line - its false, but then I'm 95% sure you didn't study Hebrew grammar, so I'll keep it simple, the correct Hebrew reading, based on the vowelization marks, is "Kol kvudah bat melech pnimah." While kvodah means her honor, kvUdah means chattels, treasure, precious things, as in Judges 18:21: "So they turned and departed and put the little ones and the cattle and the chattels [veet hakvudah] before them." Radak explained: "Veet hakvudah -- written with a vav marked with a dagesh... and kvudah means vessels and chattels." To conclude and I could go on- the Truth (heard of it?) matter of women's Low Status in Halacha, bottom, final line consider the issue of pikuah nefesh, saving a life: if they both [a man and a woman] are going to drown in a river, one should save the man first." Period. (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8)
nough said , Hamevin Yavi

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

BigJew cut and pasted: Stuff from Joseph Pearlman.

The text doesn't say anything about the place of intercourse, menstrual fluids, or urine.

BTW, someone should tell Joseph Pearlman that the "place of intercourse" does not exude "urine and excrement." If he believes that, he is doing it wrong.

The quote, in context:

"R. Kahana said: What is meant by, 'For he decreed, and it was': this refers to a woman; 'he commanded; and it did stand' — this refers to children. A Tanna taught: Though a woman be as a pitcher full of filth and her mouth be full of blood, yet all speed after her."

I think what this Tanna is trying to say, is that a woman is made up of organic components. Even if someone were to visualize these components out of the context of the human body, he would still crave her. After all, it's only anatomy; a phrase I've heard often in medical settings in the course of my work.

Incidentally, this quote references Bereshit 3:16. The woman is supposed to desire the man; not vice-versa. Maybe the Tanna is offering a way of looking at a woman to temper male desire in order lessen or avoid conflict with the Biblical decree.

FWIW, I believe the Tanna could have used nicer language, especially when talking about B'not Yisrael. Since he's quoting from Bereshit anyway, how about pointing out that no matter how attractive she is now, her end is dust, yet man craves her. To wit: For you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Bereshit 3:19).

FWIW, I have yet to meet a normal heterosexual male who has a natural, "propensity to repugnancy" when it comes to women.

Who thinks like this?

[tootired]

Ass,
I've never in my life heard such buck am-ha'aratzus as your #'s 3, 5, and 6.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

if they both [a man and a woman] are going to drown in a river, one should save the man first." Period. (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8)

I think in this case, we might go after the person who has the capacity to do more mitzvot. It's only my opinion, but I would say if it were between an observant woman and an irreligious man, saving the woman would come first.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Too bad a couple of years at JTS doesn't teach much more than Talmud Lite and social work.

Pastoral counseling [I think that's what you are talking about] != Social Work

Social Work is an actual profession and social worker is a protected title in many states. Many social workers are graduates of masters programs requiring 60 credit hours of study, plus 3,000 hours of supervision, plus a licensing exam, and CEU requirements.

[Bilaam's Ass]

nu, Shelo Kedarko-)...and tootired, yes, sadly for you and many others; that's cause youve drunk the kool aid and can't see...

[Bilaam's Ass]

NU, for the record as shtika K'hodaa.
1. whos pearlman?
2. Never went to JTS
3. Semiha YY from UO gadol

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

BA,

I never heard of Pearlman until BJ posted this at the end of his post:

"Kol Tuv, Joseph Pearlman >>><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at

Posted by: Big Jew | February 24, 2010 at 01:23 PM"

[Bilaam's Ass]

Thanks NU, we need more anivut humble emet in all areas in Yahdut.

[Chayim]

Avi Avi I hope you come to your senses. Avi Weiss you survived 2 heart attacks and tried to be a lifetime activist. I myself used to go to your rallies back in the seventies every tish bav but how can you be so foolish at your age to mess up. Retract from your silly move of Rabba making. Your in your 60s and lets say you live to 70 as what is the average persons life,why chance frying in hell because you defied the great Rabbis. I beg of you Avi Weiss change your direction. You dont want to go down in history with a reputation like the other rebels from Herzl to Stephen Wise and company. Wake up Avi and put a full page ad in the jewish press pulling back on your grave mistake. Dont get caught up in foolishness.A secret past admirer. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE