Hatzalah Volunteer In Fatal Hit And Run Tries To Avoid Community Service

"He didn't stop when he had a piece of flesh on his console," the assistant district attorney Joe Drillings said.

Fatal hit-and-run driver draws probation
By Victor Whitman • Times Herald-Record

MONTICELLO — A Brooklyn man was sentenced to probation on Wednesday for a July 2008 hit-and-run accident in the Town of Fallsburg that killed 50-year-old Julio Torres. But before he expressed "deep remorse" for the crime, Michael Rebenwurzel, 27, tried to get out of doing community service.

Torres' partner of 14 years, Salvadora Negron, cried while a victim's advocate read her statement, and asked the judge to sentence him to prison. Her son and daughter have no father.

"Rebenwurzel never showed any remorse or compassion for our children or even offered condolences," she wrote. "Instead, he acted with arrogance, as if he had only killed an animal. When he looked at me, he looked as if I were nothing."

Rebenwurzel, who comes from a wealthy Brooklyn family, stood holding two prayer books.

"I am deeply sorry for what happened," Rebenwurzel said in a soft voice that was barely audible. "For my entire life, I will be filled with remorse."

He faced up to seven years for the felony of leaving the scene of an accident where a death occurred. Judge Robert Sackett informed Rebenwurzel's attorney, Benjamin Brafman, that he was tacking on 150 hours of community service, which wasn't part of the plea deal. Brafman then consulted with Rebenwurzel and his family in the courtroom hallway, and then asked to have the community service waived. The judge denied the request.

Rebenwurzel has maintained consistently he thought he hit a deer in the dark, foggy conditions. Torres was probably killed instantly.

Rebenwurzel was a trained EMT. He has worked for a volunteer ambulance corps. There was blood and body fragments on the windshield. He drove away without investigating.

"He didn't stop when he had a piece of flesh on his console," Assistant District Attorney Joe Drillings said.

[Hat Tip: CS.]

Comments

[Bilaam's Ass]

What's the problem ? He's just following ortho din al pi-Halakha according to his gadol rebbi.

Lo Tirzah, do not murder does not apply to Goyim. "... if One (who) intended to kill an animal, kills a person, or one who intended to kill a idolater, but killed a Jew, or he who intended to kill a newborn unable to survive; and killed one able to survive -- this one is not Hayaav- liable." Bavli Sanhedrin, chp 9; mishna 2) as Sefer HaY'reim (part 175) says " he must intend to commit the action for which one is Hayaav -liable. (Category) Murder only applies if a Jew is murdered, as it's written: '...who kills his fellow' (Deut; 4:42) - one who murders his fellow (Jew) is called a Roitzeah-murderer; but one who murdered an Akum- idolater is not called a murderer." Wake up.

[Bill]

BA,

Please keep bringing this stuff out into the open.

BJ will undoubtedly write next with some pilpul about how you're taking things "out of context."

[Bilaam's Ass]

Thanks Bill, Kudos - I really appreciated your balanced, solid reasoning in the face of their kool aid and personal attacks.

[harold]

He did not "try to avoid community service" his attorney asked the judge to have the community service waived since it was not part of the plea bargain. He asked, the judge said no and thats it. There was nothing sinister involved here.

[chabadnik attorney]

BA, your comments are completely devoid of solid reasoning. You tactics are similar to those of Jews for Jesus and other groups that wish to attack our beliefs at their core. Its sad that people like Big Jew who are able to place context to your arguments actually supply fuel to your fire by attacking Lubavitcher yeshivos. People like you will prevail so long as there is dissension among people like us.

[Bill]

The hareidim keep "two sets of books," so to speak, with respect to how one must interact with non-Jews and non-hareidim.

Their literature is replete with this stuff and this is how they indoctrinate their children.

[chabadnik attorney]

Its sad that some of the Haredim act that way. Then again most of my family were killed by Russian and German gentiles. I was harassed as a kid for being jewish. My family faced plenty of antisemitism even in this country. Do you really think you need the Gemara to teach people to be biased.

[Bill]

"Do you really think you news the Gemara to teach people to be biased?" - Chabadnic

No, but it helps - a lot.

[Bill]

need, that is

[chabadnik attorney]

Bill, not really. That's only when texts are taken out of context and studied in a vacuum or with a certain agenda in mind. I learned in Beis Medrash for five years post high school in Lubavitch and Litvish yeshivas. I was never taught the beliefs that you claim are being espoused in the Gemara.

[Bill]

chabadnik,

your personal anecdote is consistent with the fact that chabad does not emphasize the talmud in the way in which the other fundamentalist orthodox do.

The Talmud is replete with bigotry toward non-Jews and non-observers. If you learned talmud, then -that- is -exactly- what you learned.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Ha! They're trying to start a Hatzalah in my community. You have to be a man of fine, upstanding character. On the application, they want to know where you daven on Shabbos and weekdays. You must be married, provide some rabbinical references, and sign an affidavit that you haven't been observed sexually abusing a kid by more than one witness in the mikvah.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

The hareidim keep "two sets of books," so to speak, with respect to how one must interact with non-Jews and non-hareidim.

Make that three; it even extends to non-religious Jews.

[who knows?]

BA, if what you bringing up is right, then what is the difference between our faith and Islam?

[Bill]

"What is the difference between [Judaism] and islam." WK

Judaism does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet. Islam does.

[Yisroel Pensack]

To the neo-nazi and other viciously anti-Torah commenters on this site, Jewish or otherwise, and their sympathizers, Jewish or otherwise: the above article is about sentencing in a fatal hit-and-run accident -- not an intentional, premeditated murder case. "Liable," as cited in an anti-Torah comment above, means potentially liable to a death penalty verdict in an Orthodox Jewish religious court. If you really think that that commenter's discussion is relevant to this case, you have a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality.

For a learned, intelligent discussion from a Torah-true perspective of the subject which has been raised here solely for anti-Torah propaganda purposes, see the article "Jews Are Called -- Man: The Distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Torah" by Rabbi David Bar Chaim, which is posted on a non-Orthodox website at

http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119

[WoolSilkCotton]

Read the comments about this case on VIN. You will first want to puke, then you will want to join the American Nazi Party.

[Bill]

Hareidi Playbook for Beating Everyone Else in a Debate

1. The three words you should use as much as possible in any debate are Nazis, anti-Semites, and Holocaust. (This way, you can be sure that the other person will waste time and become frustrated trying to defend themselves, instead of scoring intellectual points against you.) If all else fails, drop the Super-H bomb: Hitler. The first person to associate the other person with Hitler always wins. So drop the Super-H and leave the discussion promptly and, of course, victoriously.

2. Mention how “authentic” hareidism and how it’s been around “longer” than other forms of Judaism. Anything that’s been around longer is more authentic, more wholesome and "more" better. Everyone knows this “deep down.” That is why you win if you mention that.

3. Discuss how subjectively “happy” Hareidim are with their 14 children and their better family life. Make note of the fact that no Hareidim ever do drugs or have sex, or are subject to the corrupting influences of modern life. (Of course, nobody can ever know how subjectively “happy” you are. So just say that you are extremely happy and make everyone else wonder why, if at all, they are not as “happy” as you.)

4. Mention how “miserable” non-hareidim are with their two children and, of course, dog.

Never forget to mention the dog!

[Bilaam's Ass]

Chabadnick, I source all my quotes so all can look it up themselves, if they are a Bar daat. Funny how people Motzi shem ra and msinat hinam the messenger when they don't like the message. What happened to midot to not engaging in Gneivat da'at? M'dvar Sheker Tirhak? or M'pnei Iver Lo Titen when talking Torah texts?

BA you ask a great Sheila. imho B'Klal we are probably still ahead because of the enlightment, B'prat b/c of Hatam Sofer in many serious areas we are only a couple hundred years ahead...

[Yisroel Pensack]

BA: Do you really think it's possible to "motzi shem ra" an anonymous commenter who calls himself Bilaam's Ass? Haven't you already done that to yourself by your choice of name and screen identity?

Bill at least has an actual name, but it sounds quite goyish. That's probably "out of context," I suppose.

[Bill]

(continued from my previous post....)

.... Hareidi Playbook for Beating Everyone Else in a Debate

5. Remind them that they are not Hareidi so, by definition, they are less knowledgeable than you about Judaism. You spend all day studying Talmud (except for occasional blogging to fend off the Nazis, anti-Semites, and Holocaust-deniers and promoters of various sorts, as per Rule 1 above).
Talmud is the “blueprint” of the Universe. If you know Talmud, you know Jewish history, mythology, law and culture better than any PhD. Moreover, you are better educated. You know how to put things into proper “context.”

You are a better debater. You know what’s important, and you have better insight and better judgment about everything!

[Bilaam's Ass]

YP - yep, I might be oiver on ba'al tashit but you miss the hazal drash on my name...get it? oh well...
Full disclosure- thanks to yp and daat emet ref(great site!)
I'm missing a makor from R.Hakochavi. - here's the quote "According to Maimonides, the Yere'im, and Rabbi David HaKochavi, one who kills a Gentile does not transgress the negative commandment 'you shall not murder.'
Summary
1. One who kills a Gentile, and even a ger toshav, is not put to death for this by the Beit Din, even if he kills him with intent. This is clearly stated in the Torah and in the words of Chazal.

2. In the opinion of the HaRa'aban, one who kills a Gentile transgresses the negative commandment of "You shall not murder," and in the opinion of Maimonides, the Yeare'im, and Rabbi David HaKochavi, the murder of a Gentile is not included in this negative commandment. However, according to all opinions there exists a prohibition (primarily for darkei shalom, the ways of peace) in this matter, as is clear from the words of Chazal.
(brackets my addition)

[Yisroel Pensack]

The anti-Torah hatemongers, notably Bilaam's Ass and Bill, have succeeded here in diverting attention from the extraordinarily light sentence in this fatal hit-and-run case.

[WoolSilkCotton]

They are obviously self-hating Jews, possible nazis, who are deep down inside unhappy. They are probably high on drugs as they walk their dogs and are no better than Hitler.

[Yisroel Pensack]

YP - ...you miss the hazal drash on my name...get it?

BA: I think Chazal say Bilaam was having sex with his donkey. Is that what you mean?

[Bill]

Hi,

This is Bill's friend.

Bill is indisposed right now. He was knocked unconscious by WoolCottonSilks, triple, nay, quadruple blow!

LOL. ROFL

[Bilaam's Ass]

YP nice to see were your kop and awareness really is

[Yisroel Pensack]

BA: Yours is obviously up -- well, I think we know the rest.

[Bilaam's Ass]

Chabadnik - I am truly sorry for your family shemosru al Kiddush Hashem: I love Am Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Torat hahayim and love and am proud being a Sefardi Tahor - we in am yisrael need to reflect that some of these ancient attitudes in 'hazal' really hurt us with the umot haolam and deeply within our own mahane. I'm afraid over time these ideas, words and actions will come back to haunt us if we do not bring light to them.

[.]

"your personal anecdote is consistent with the fact that chabad does not emphasize the talmud in the way in which the other fundamentalist orthodox do."

Apparently you're not very familiar with the lubavitch bible. The Tanya's bigotry is even worse.

[Clue]

Assuming that he actually thought he hit a person, how could he have known the religion of the person. And if he did not,then how is religion relevant? Do you really think he would have stopped if he knew the person he hit was Jewish?

This has nothing to do with religion. It is about a person who made a bad misjudgment and chose not to stop despite the possibility that he may have hit a person. As for the "flesh" on the windshield, dear have flesh also.

If the prosecutor thought that his deed was so bad, he should not have agreed to a no prison sentence plea. More likely, this plea bargain is in line with how these cases are handled, for better or worse.

As for this article, I question the significance of the statement, true or not, that this person comes from a "wealthy Brooklyn family." What are they, the Rockefellers?

This sounds like borderline stereotyping. Those wealthy Jews getting away with everything.

Significantly missing from this article. Did he turn himself in, or did the police find him out. Did he try to conceal the crime?

[chabadnik attorney]

Chabadnik,

your personal anecdote is consistent with the fact that chabad does not emphasize the talmud in the way in which the other fundamentalist orthodox do. Posted by: Bill | February 25, 2010 at 05:33 PM

Bill, my comment said I learned in Litvish Yeshivas as well. In any event I am not sure what your point is. Which "other fundamentalist orthodox" are you referring to. Its easy enough to get the cycle of Talmud a yeshiva studies. I assume you are aware that most yeshivas follow a cycle of specific tractates portions of which are studied in depth. Aside from BA, I know of absolutely no yeshiva that focuses on the topics that you believe to be a major part of yeshiva study and certainly not in the context that you refer to. Did you spend time in yeshiva or are you relying upon the propaganda and rhetoric of an anti-rabbinate.

[chabadnik attorney]

Apparently you're not very familiar with the lubavitch bible. The Tanya's bigotry is even worse. Posted by: . | February 25, 2010 at 10:47 PM

Its the famous "." You bash Shmarya in hos "about me" post and then you bash Chabad here. You may not have noticed but Shmarya (no offense intended Shmarya) can be quite the Chabad basher himself. So you are okay with Shmarya or yourself bashing Chabad but not other Jews.

[Clue]

A quick google search reveal this.

He waived his right to a jury trial and the proceeding was headed for a bench trial. His car was found a few hours later by police parked outside his home. There was apparently no attempt at any concealment.

There is no mention whether he cleaned up the windshield mess, but if he did, how could the prosecutor have known that there was flesh on the windshield?

And if he was concealing anything, why did he park his car outside his home for the police to see, instead of in his garage or off the street? Presumably he could have continued on to his wealthy family home in Brooklyn and would have never been found out.

Significantly missing from this article is the fact that the family agreed to this plea bargain and the prosecutor said it was the best he could do.

It sure sounds like the prosecution thought the case was headed for acquittal by the judge trying the case and made him an offer no defense attorney or defendant could refuse.

[chabadnik attorney]

Posted by: Bilaam's Ass | February 25, 2010 at 10:42 PM

Thank you. I do not believe that our actions are a cause or excuse for anti-semitism any more than jews driving cars are causing global warming. I know that is touchy point with some that will strongly disagree. I will however err on the side of caution and try not to provoke or stir up the hatred. It would seem to me that by you citing every place in Torah that may be interpreted as bigotry is not helping our cause.

As far as pointing out Haredi arguments, I would throw it back at ya. The non-haredi method of arguing is to say that haredim are drinking the kool aid, cant argue facts etc etc etc. You just dismiss us and thats it. (I only recently starting to say us because I learned here, finally after 40 years, that I am haredi.

[chabadnik attorney]

On the actual topic at hand, there probably a light sentence because there was probably not enough evidence that he was driving recklessly. Seems the main problem was that he drove away and it seems there were evidentiary issues on that point as well. I think it was ridiculous, stupid and shameful that he objected to the community service, especially in light of the fact that he is a volunteer EMT anyway.

[chabadnik attorney]

FYI, you can usually arrange to choose what type of community service you engage in. Which is why his objection made absolutely no sense. Any prudent attorney would have requested that his client fulfill his community service through the volunteer ambulance corps instead of objecting to it all together.

[Yisroel Pensack]

...I love Am Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Torat hahayim and love and am proud being a Sefardi Tahor - we in am yisrael need to reflect that some of these ancient attitudes in 'hazal' really hurt us with the umot haolam and deeply within our own mahane. I'm afraid over time these ideas, words and actions will come back to haunt us if we do not bring light to them.

Posted by: Bilaam's Ass | February 25, 2010 at 10:42 PM

BA: You should "wake up," as you put it, and stop writing anti-Semitic, anti-Torah diatribes. Your own definition or concept of "Torah" is not the traditional Orthodox Jewish definition and concept, which you manifestly hate and strongly oppose; so cut the lovey-dovey BS.

[Chayim]

There are car accidents everyday. Its unfortunate but why give someone probation. Most people who may have killed by accident feel bad all their life. Either do away with cars and bring back horses or stop whining. Besides those that die from car accidents or falling off rooftops are usually being punished for major sins like male homosexuality,violation of shabbos or idol worshipping etc. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE

[R]

I understand why he didn't know what he hit, but if you hit something and there is blood on your windscreen wouldn't you stop straight away to see what happened and maybe even the damage to the car if you think it was just a deer?
How fast was he driving in these bad weather conditions?
Whether it's murder on purpose or by mistake he still took someone's life and why isn't he being properly punished for this? Has he been banned from driving for a certain amount of time and made to take a driving course?

[OTD for a reason]

Chayim - Yes, there are car accidents all the time. But leaving the scene of an accident in which a person is injured is a felony. There is no excuse for not reporting the accident.

[seymour]

Besides those that die from car accidents or falling off rooftops are usually being punished for major sins like male homosexuality,violation of shabbos or idol worshipping etc. CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE

Posted by: Chayim | February 26, 2010 at 04:32 AM

so tell me mister know it all, what crime did the little boy do? The who was killed in an accident two weeks ago in Boro Prk by a school bus? maybe he was gay?

[Yisroel Pensack]

seymour: Sometimes little children can suffer for the sins of their parents.

[Yisroel Pensack]

"...can suffer or die..." is what I meant.

[A. Nuran]

On one side BA has included citations from Torah, Talmud and poseks.

On the other side CA and YP have provided personal insults and dismissive "It doesn't mean that" handwaving. They have not bothered to actually refute the argument or provide evidence of their own.

A rational person would tend to believe BA. A cultist would tend to believe YP.

[Bill]

Six (!) Ways for a Hareidi to Beat Any Non-Hareidi in Any Debate

1. The four phrases you should use as much as possible in any debate are Nazis, anti-Semites, self-hating Jew, and Holocaust.

Discuss, at length, Holocaust deniers, Holocaust promoters. people who are neither Holocaust deniers nor promoters but who, considering the plight of your grandparents, are, in your judgement, far too indifferent to the Holocaust than they aught to be. (Since they are not Hareidi, by definition, their grandparents were not in the Holocaust, nor did they suffer from persecution or anti-Semitism of any type.)

If all else fails, drop the Super-H bomb: Hitler. (The first person to associate the other person with Adolph Hitler always wins because no one has ever one an argument by asserting that one is not like Adolph Hitler.) So drop the Super-H and leave the discussion promptly and, of course, victoriously.

2. Mention how “authentic” Hareidism and how it’s been around “longer” than any other forms of Judaism. Anything that’s been around longer is more authentic, more wholesome, more true, and just "more" better. Everyone knows this “deep down.” That is why you will win if you mention that.

3. Remind them that they are not Hareidi so, by definition, they lack proper “context” are less knowledgeable than you about Judaism. You spend all day studying Talmud (except for occasional blogging to fend off the Nazis, the anti-Semites, and the Holocaust-deniers and promoters of various sorts, as per Rule 1 above).

Talmud is the “blueprint” of the Universe. If you know Talmud, you know Jewish history, mythology, law and culture better than any PhD. You are better educated and more intelligent. You have better insight and better judgment. Your mind is perpetually and exponentially render keener by the infinitive wisdom of the Talmud, while they go to college to “drink beer,” dance with shiksehs and play video games all day long.

Talmud is a debate. So you are the superior debater, and you know how to put things into proper “context.” (Context is something that only a talmid chochem (“Torah scholar”) can provide. “Context” is everything. Context is how you win debates, and context is how you make sure that you never get backed into a corner.)

4. Make sure the conversation stays "on topic" the topic being, of course, the Talmud and Halacha and God’s plan for the Universe as you know it (through the Talmud). Try not to let them "change the subject" to science or history. If they do bring up a so-called “facts,” (quote-unquote) needle them, in general terms, about how their liberal education has distorted their world view.

The exception to this rule, which is not really even an exception at all, is evolution, sorry, the theory of evolution. Evolution is "just a theory" that has nothing to do with science or so-called “facts” (quote-unquote) and theories is what you can debate, very skillfully all day long. Moreover, you can never lose a debate on evolution because you can always conclude the debate by dropping the “Monkey Bomb.” (“Maybe your ancestors came from monkeys. Mine certainly did not.”) Whoever says that first, wins automatically.

5. Discuss how subjectively “happy deep down” Hareidim are with their 14 children and their better family life. Make note of the fact that no Hareidim ever get “high on drugs,” or are subject to the corrupting influences of modern life.

6. Tell them that, unlike you, "deep down" they feel empty and unhappy. (of course, you have knowing for sure how they feel “deep down, but you do know that they are not Hareidi. Their non-Hareidi status, while compatible with superficial happiness, is, by definition, totally incompatible with "deep down" happiness. Proof of their unhappiness is their "big empty house,” their two children, of course, dog. (Don’t forget to mention the dog! Any prop that you can use to insinuate that your adversary in the debate is less human then you is worth its weight in gold!)

Point to their pursuit of “toys” (chiefly, their impossibly large flat screen television and their late-model German-made SUV) as proof that they are unhappy “deep down.” You don’t need “toys” to make you happy. You were perfectly happy with the esrog with the beautiful pitim you bough last year (or was it the year before? - not important.)

[WoolSilkCotton]

Bill, outstanding!

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Yisroel Pensack | February 26, 2010 at 10:53 AM++

YP, your version of Jewish belief is disgusting.

[chabadnik attorney]

Posted by: A. Nuran | February 26, 2010 at 11:20 AM

Big Jew provided explanation and context to many of the quotes. It is extremely time consuming and burdensome to address complicated Talmudic concepts. It is the practice of Missionaries to employ that type of tactic. They site a verse out of context to an audience who is ignorant as to the topic and you have to now go and write a thesis refute it.

If BA would 1. site the sugyeh in context (is it Halacha, is it Agadetah, literal, metaphoric) 2. and then bring down the miforshim, 3. Even see if there is an Artscroll or Steinzalts on the topic, 4. see what the author of the comments has said on other topics, 5. etc, then he would be presenting a logical argument. To take a quote out of context proves nothing, is highly inflammatory and only looks good to an audience who is not familiar with the talmud.

Furthermore I do not have a personal need or desire, not do I have the time or energy to look up and provide analysis to every inflammatory attack on the Talumd.

[chabadnik attorney]

You know Shmarya, it gets to a point where you let things go to far. Perhaps in your own beliefs (I really can't say as we haven't had an update lately) but certainly in the vile anti Torah comments that are unleashed by some people commenting here. The Torah is, in and of itself, pure. What man does to corrupt it is another topic. I would implore that you knowledgeable well meaning people at least make that distinction when commenting.

[Bilaam's Ass]

ca are you suggesting censorship?

[A. Nuran]

CA, you are lying plain and simple. BJ did not post one single word here. And you posted no refutation to anything BA wrote other than "You're wrong".

Since there is no reason to listen to a liar why should anyone take a single word of yours seriously.

[Bill]

Wool,

Thanks, with a little hat tip to you for the emphasis on the "deep down" phrase!

[chabadnik attorney]

BA, no I am not suggesting censorship. I am requesting of Shmarya and other knowledgable well meaning people, such as yourself, to provide some context and explanation (as you have in a recent post) so that we are not attacking Torah but the people who have perverted it.

@ A. Nuran, you call me a liar. You use a complained of Haredi attack method. You have used one of these methods to dismiss everything I say. Are you sure that I am lying. If I prove to you that I am not lying, will you donate $180.00 to FM?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Nuran, I too thought it was a bit odd that our virtual colleague Big Jew was mentioned repeatedly on this thread, even though he/she had not participated!

Bill, I am reminded of the Simpsons episode where the family goes to Australia, and Bart was about to be punished with a kick from the official government Boot. Australian law was quoted as stating "Disparaging the Boot is a bootable offense".

So it is with some of our colleagues here and their defense of what they consider Torah laws- 'The rabbis say that disparaging the rabbis is a punishable offense'.
What a convenient setup. They make their own laws to keep you under their control, and then you are forbidden to criticize, because that makes you a blasphemer, and thus subject to severe punishment.

[chabadnik attorney]

WSC, Big Jew in a recent post had a lengthy back and forth with BA about various Talmudic excerpts. You are now agreeing with someone who used a false ad hominem attack against me right after accusing Haredim of making such attack.

Now apologize and join A Nuran in $180 donation to FM.

[chabadnik attorney]

AN and WSC

1. Pls see "RCA Said Ready To Oust Rabbi Avi Weiss"

2. Donate $180.00 in my honor to FM

3. Apologize

WSC, I explained in my comment why I referred to Big Jews's prior comments in another post. If you see his comments you will see what I mean. It is extremely time consuming and requires learning and research to respond to inflammatory comments siting out of context Talmudic verse.

[chabadnik attorney]

Further WSC I made no comment about your freedom to be a anti-rabbinite as you see fit. I said for the sake of our people, don't take highly inflammatory Talmudic remarks out of context without back ground and explanation.

[chabadnik attorney]

Who's next to challenge CA? Rob? Anyone else want to lose $180.00.

(This comment is Purim Spiel - just to clarify for the anti-rabbinate's, anti- chabad koolaid drinkers and plain old anti's out there)

[WoolSilkCotton]

CA, there are some threads I just don't bother with for no apparent reason.
I was unaware of your entanglement with BJ there, and that it spilled over onto this thread. And so, I am sorry for overlooking that backdrop to this current exchange.

The Talmud has way too much ignorance, bigotry, and silliness, mixed in with its many brilliant gems, to be accepted as anything more than a great historic work of over 1000 years ago. To insist that everything in it is still absolutely sacrosanct, infallible and immutable, no matter what the supposed context is, makes us look like idiots and Neanderthals.

While I admire your zeal in attempting to carry the torch for this magnificent but flawed piece of Jewish history, you do yourself a disservice by remaining so rigid about the dogma.

I must now shoot myself up with drugs, walk the dog, admire Hitler, and do all the other stuff us self-hating Jews must do in preparation for erev Shabbos.

[chabadnik attorney]

WSC, Thank you for the apology. I never characterized the sacrosanct of the Talmud in such a manner. Further I do not consider you to be a self-hating Jew. You may be a bit confused about your identity, but arn't we all?

You still refer to my dogma etc. Essentially attacking the credibility of my arguments by avoiding the issues in a manner of false argument that some here accuse the Haredim of.

The main point is that A. Nuran called falsely called me a liar and you believed him. He used his attack to discredit everything that I argue from here on out. And you accuse me of Dogma!

That being said I will take your advice to the best of my ability. You should be aware now I have respect for your opinions.

I do think its a bit selfish of those of us who bash orthodoxy online while we are preparing for Shabboss turning people off from investigating the opportunity of enjoying the same Shabboss we are about to enjoy.

[A. Nuran]

CA, let's try this with small words.

BA put things up here. Some of them were Torah. Some of them were Talmud. Some of them were words from poseks.

You said that BJ said things which proved BA was wrong.
BJ did not say anything.
You knew this.
You knew this was not true when you said it.

You said that you said things which proved BA was wrong.
You did not say anything like that.
Maybe you knew this.
If you did you told another lie.
If you did not you have problems telling make-believe from what is real.

You told lies.

You are a liar.

It really is as simple as that.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

This guy is going to get reamed in civil court.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The victim's companion stated "...as if he had only killed an animal. When he looked at me, he looked as if I were nothing..."

Sounds like she now understands orthodox Judaism just about perfectly. Just like the elderly mother of cop killer grossman's victim.

[chabadnik attorney]

@ A. Nuran,

Try to process:

1. I did not say that "BJ said things which proved BA was wrong." I said "Big Jew provided explanation and context to many of the quotes"

2. WSC had no problem understanding what I meant. In his words:

"CA, there are some threads I just don't bother with for no apparent reason.
I was unaware of your entanglement with BJ there, and that it spilled over onto this thread. And so, I am sorry for overlooking that backdrop to this current exchange."

3. I never said "You said that you said things which proved BA was wrong." What in the heck are you talking about?

4. Now since you are having difficulty with this I will cut and paste one part of the posts between BJ and BA that I was referring to (the posts are very long to cut and paste the entire thread when you could just look there.)

"To Bilaam's ass and Nigritude Ultramarine

Unfortunately you have taken the statement completely out of context. This reminds me of the person who decided he could not possibly accept Yiddishkeit because he had read in Bameh Madlikin on Friday evening that women died in childbirth on account of being lax regarding the Mitzvos of Chalah, Nidah, and Hadlakas ha'Ner. Only a cruel and illogical religion could prescribe the death penalty for such minor
offences. Anyone who believes that, he said, must be quite unbalanced. But he has taken it completely out of context without understanding the wider picture or the basic intent of this dictum of Chazal. So too here. The Gemara is not defining a woman or her attributes any more than the prophet Yeshayah is doing so (4:4) when he describes Hashem washing away the filth of the daughters of Zion and the blood of Jerusalem. Or Akavya ben Mahalalel who said (Avos 3:1) that man comes from a putrid drop or Koheles (3:19) who writes that man is no better than a beast. And Chulin (5a,b) regarding men who are the equivalent of animals, or Vayikra Rabah 15:2 based on Iyov 28:25 that a man is half-water, half-blood and if there is any imbalance he becomes an Adripikos (a dropsy sufferer) or a Metzora. Each of these statements is not intended to be derogatory to humankind generally but merely to illustrate a particular point. And it is the same here. The Gemara you quoted (Shabbos 152a) is attempting to show the infirmity of man in a series of situations. Verses from Koheles are quoted to show what happens in man's old age. He becomes weak and tired and his body can no longer function efficiently. The greatest Amora, Rav, groaned in the presence of Rav Kahana since he could no longer father children. Rav Kahana proceeded to make a deep philosophical observation on Hashem's construction and control over His creation. He points out that notwithstanding the fact that a human being finds semen and blood repulsive and that the place of intercourse exudes menstrual fluids, blood, urine and excrement (this is where he likens a woman to a container full of dirt with its openings full of [vaginal] blood), nonetheless, quite illogically, a man runs after her. This is how Hashem arranged that procreation should take place. This is his interpretation of the verse in Tehilim 33:9 which is defining Hashem's control over the universe. He ordered the creation of woman but no child would have been born had He not also given the order for man's desire for a woman to override his sensitivity to her repulsive aspects. In fact the Jewish approach to intercourse as being an act of great holiness and purity is in stark contrast to the attitude of another religion which advocates celibacy as a preference and considers the sexual act to be dirty rather than pure. Rav Kahana is illustrating that when Hashem sanctions something it becomes purified and welcome, completely overriding one's a priori, and perhaps even natural, propensity to repugnancy. In summation, there is nothing derogatory in this Gemara about women. It is simply a clinical description given for the purpose of the lesson to be derived. Just as in the other cases I have quoted above, no one would take the slightest umbrage at the comparison between a man and an animal or the attribution of filth and blood to the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem, in the context in which the statements were made, so too this statement must be understood in its own context. Kol Tuv, Joseph Pearlman >>><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at

Posted by: Big Jew | February 24, 2010 at 01:23 PM"

[chabadnik attorney]

Mr. A. Nuran has called me a liar twice. What he is saying I lied about is ridiculous. He has personally attacked me instead of using facts and reason to argue. He said I made two statements that I never made. He does not have the courage to apologize.

[Bill]

CA,

It's all pilpul. Drivel.

Everything is literal when it serves them. When it exposes their primitive prejudices, they start with the spin.

[Bill]

CA,

I should add too that the author of the spin you quoted is deliberately fasifying the Talmudic record.

The Talmud describes a woman as being full of excrement ("tzoah") not "dirt" ("afar"). You deliberately changed the words to try to "soften up" an otherwise revolting and dehumanizing comment.

But keep spinning, the truth is catching up with you no matter how hard you try.

[chabadnik attorney]

Bill, try to process this:

1. A. Nuran said I lied. I didn't.

2. A. Nuran said that I said Big J. refuted BA, I did not.

Your method of argument and that of A. Nuran is to use personal attacks against me and other Haredim.

[chabadnik attorney]

Bill, please read the comments before responding and try to focus on the issue the is being presented. . I did not quote or try to explain the Talmud. I cut and paste Big J's post where he discusses the Talmud. I did not cut and pate it because I agreed or disagreed with it. I cut and paste to prove that the comment exists. I had to do that because A., Nuran called me a liar for saying that Big J. made any such comment.

[Bill]

CA,

I'm not sure why you feel attacked.

I don't follow the intricacies of your spiffy with other people, and realize that you are posting a quote, within a quote, within a quote.

The information within it is spin and propaganda. That's all. If your motives are irrelevent to the substance of what you are saying, my sincerest apologies!

[chabadnik attorney]

Thanks Bill. I didn't want to put the quote within the quote and I apologize for the confusion.

[chabadnik attorney]

Bill, I also agree with you that people often use spin when it suits their needs. I for one try not to do that. I believe that I am pretty much a straight shooter.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chabadnik Attorney, it's Purim! Relax, enjoy, celebrate, have another drink.
Forget about who said what to who about this and that.

Ahavas Yisroel! All is good, all is apologized for, all is forgiven!

BTW, I am working my way through a bottle of Polish potato vodka.

Will be in Crown Heights tomorrow morning for Megillah!

[chabadnik attorney]

WSC, I was getting depressed as you seemed to be in a particularly negative mood lately. Now that you are in a better mood, don't go to Crown Heights and risk ruining it.

I wish I could join you now for a Lichaim. My family is at a Purim party and look at what I am doing!

I guess A. Nuran will never apologize. If he thinks I lied then so be it.

Happy Purim, I will try to enjoy.

[chabadnik attorney]

WSC, my wife agrees with you!

(Oh and BTW for the dense people like A. Nuran, I wasn't lieing when I said my family was at a Purim party. My wife just walked in. Kids are still there and so will I be soon.)

[WoolSilkCotton]

Don't just try. The Rebbe used to say, when you have to go over an obstacle, you MUST go over!

Unconditional love and forgiveness to anyone who may have slighted you. Everyone here is putting their heart and soul on the line. Sometimes it is obvious, sometimes not so clearly, but if you believe in the teachings of Chassidus, you know that love of all your fellow yidden is the ikur. Nuran is a good decent person who puts it all out there.

Show the love! Send a virtual Shallach Monos basket, right here, right now!

[chabadnik attorney]

Here is a virtual Shlach Manos to A. Nuran !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear A. Nuran, I apologize for offending or insulting you in any way. Pls say a Lichaim (Vodka and Mountain Dew preferably :) and eat a Humantash in honor of the good spirit of WSC.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Go join your kids!! Stop wasting time here!!!!!!