Haredim Move To Ban Salmon, Other Fish

Rabbis Elyashiv and Kanievsky are said to support ban.

Bagel, no lox?
By Michael Orbach • The Jewish Star

Anisakis, a roundworm, typically does not grow to more than two centimeters long and about the width of a human hair, but the parasite may cause big problems for kosher fish lovers.

Some charedi rabbonim in Israel as well as a number of their American counterparts have ruled that the fish that the parasites inhabit, including wild salmon, flounder and halibut, can no longer be considered kosher. The Orthodox Union, the largest kashrut certifying organization in the world, does not believe such a ban is required or even necessary.

At a meeting in a Brooklyn shul on Feb. 18th, Rabbi Moshe Karp (no kidding) of Modi’in Illit in Israel forcefully expressed his position in Yiddish: on account of the roundworm, he believes that a ban on salmon and the other fish is an absolute necessity, according to rabbis who attended the meeting.

He is raising a variety of objections that would seem to contradict the Gemorah, which explicitly states that worms found in fish do not make a fish treif (non-kosher) and even allows such worms to be eaten. Karp said that he believes that the roundworm is a different parasite than the one mentioned in the Talmud; that pollution has caused the roundworm to mutate and grow larger; and that the anisakis has changed its instinctual behavior and now matures before it enters the body of the fish.

The meeting, which was accessible to the public via teleconferencing, has left many kashrut experts fishing for an appropriate response.

The Gemorah states that the “tolayim” (bug) are generated inside the fish “minei gavli,” which literally means generated in the flesh. Rashi and later commentators explain the Talmudic term to mean that a stage of the parasite’s growth is within the fish, and therefore it not considered an insect but a part of the fish. This opinion is confirmed in the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De’ah 84:16).

Karp claims that he has spoken with Israeli gedolim including HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv and HaRav Chaim Kanievsky and that they have agreed to support a ban. Karp has experience in such matters: recently, he was one of the figures behind a ban on Israeli websites that catered to the Chareidi public. Several of them have shut down.

Generally, there seems to be a difference of opinion between kashrut authorities in Israel and America, according to Rabbi Sholom Fishbane of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. He is the director of the Association of Kashruth Organizations, which organized the teleconference.

“One of the main reasons is because scientists in this part of the world and the scientists in the other part of the world are saying something different,” asserted Rabbi Fishbane. “It’s a factual problem.”

Concerns about anisakis are recurring.

“Every five years they discover this problem,” said Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative rabbinic coordinator for the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen said that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l once considered writing a teshuva (answer) explaining why salmon is kosher but did not, out of concern that it be used after his death to find justifications to prohibit the fish.

This time around, supporters of a ban are not floundering. According to anecdotal reports, a ban is being considered by kashrut authorities in Monsey and Lakewood. Chevra Mehadrun, the Kashrus Advocacy of Rockland, has released a bulletin announcing that wild salmon, hake, flounder, sol, halibut, sea bass, red perch, scrod, pollock, cod and butter fish are no longer considered kosher. So far, however, mainstream Orthodoxy has not taken the bait.

“It’s nothing to carp about,” quipped Rabbi Chaim Goldberg, rabbinical coordinator of the Orthodox Union. He said that the OU follows the p’sak halacha (ruling) of Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva Torah Voda’as, who holds that, based on the Gemorah, “the question arose approximately 2,000 years ago and was answered at that time.”

Rav Belsky is said to believe a ban is not warranted — attempts to reach him by phone were not successful. He is scheduled to visit Israel within the next two weeks to discuss the issue with leading rabbonim.

Rabbi Yoel Schonfeld of the Vaad HaRabonim of Queens said that the organization follows Orthodox Union guidelines and had no plans to ban wild fish.

“I don’t believe the ban will become widespread,” he said, warning that if it does, “it could be catastrophic” to restaurateurs and non-meat eaters.

The Vaad of the Five Towns is following the OU’s lead, as well.

According to Dr. Ted Myers, Alaska’s chief fish pathologist, the science behind the proposed ban is fishy.

There is no new parasite, he explained.

“Anisakis has been around since before man. It’s one of nature’s greatest achievements as a parasite. It’s pretty effective,” he said.

The worm matures from larvae into the third juvenile stage of its development in the visceral cavity of a fish. The worm only reaches its full development in its definitive host, a warm blooded marine mammal, a narrative that largely confirms the Talmud’s take.

Myers also said any large-scale changes in the animal are unlikely.

“As far as pointing to something in the literature and saying it’s increased the prevalence, no one can say. The anisakis worms are not that important; there’s not a lot of research regarding worms and fish. People are more interested in more exotic things like viruses.”

Dr. Isaac Wirgin, an associate professor at environmental medicine at NYU School of Medicine and a member of the Young Israel of New Rochelle, said that the worms are just a part of life.

“My wife tells me not to eat strawberries in Brooklyn. I’m not concerned about the worms in my lettuce. I eat a lot of things that are infected with things. Especially fish,” he said.

The parasites may be more common now because of pollution, Wirgin suggested, which would weaken the immune system of the fish; or because of an increase in the seal population, which is a host to the worm.

According to the OU’s Rabbi Goldberg, at the end of the meeting in Brooklyn, a chassidishe rebbe in attendance asked Karp if he was implying that gedolim of yore ate treif. Rabbi Goldberg said that Karp explained, “they did not know what we know and that the fish is assur (forbidden) because we know how the bug works.”

“I asked him to please tell me the name of the Jew or gentile that clarified it for us and where is this research, and when was it put out,” recalled Rabbi Goldberg. He believes the idea of a ban will soon be sleeping with the fishes. “If you say something is based on science then you have to provide the science. You might be the greatest of Torah scholars; show me your research or the research you’re basing your opinion on. Don’t say just because you’re great in Torah I should take your word for it.”

Comments

[Larry]

For Shalom USA's weekly radio show, this Purim we are thinking of using true stories -- sadly they are more unbelieveable then the ones we could make up!!

[HaNavon]

good, i support the ban 100%, not because of the worms, no, no,no! i support the ban because this is what is bringing the downfall of the charedi stronghold of the necks of the jewish people! people will soon just not take any of this nonsense seriously

[Yochanan Lavie]

Now they want to take our lox away! These chumra-happy chariedim need to be ignored.

[state of disgust]

Its sounds like a can of worms, and not to be taken seriously.

[Michelle]

B"H

We are clearly entering the "dark ages" again. Intellectual understanding and education mean nothing in a time when fear is the main component of life.

Fear is controlling everything done by these Haredim. They fear unseen bugs, imperfect converts, the discussion of real evil within the community, women's eyebrows, Shabbat elevators, men and women seeing one another . . . the list goes on and on.

This irrational fear is paralyzing everything in life--touching upon the basics of life like eating and sleeping and working and procreating.

It's time to let go of this fear and realize that Hashm expects respect and care, not perfection. We can't keep the mitzvot without a Temple, and we can't have a Temple without a Sanhedrin, but they fear that too! They think Hashm will drop a perfect Temple from the sky!

I wouldn't let my students do extra well on half their work and pass my class . . . why do they think doing extra work on the mitzvot they can keep while missing a huge number of mitzvot (and the most important mitzvot of all) will get them anywhere?

It all just frustrates the heck out of me!

[jay]

So let's consider the bans thus far: Blackberries,raspberries,strawberries, broccoli, cauliflower, romaine lettuce,asparagus, kale, chard, and now fatty cold-water fish. At this rate, we won't have any chareidim left to discuss for long. They'll all die of cancer or heart disease because of their lousy diet.

[nobody]

Was this fellow involved in the sheital banning a few years back? That particular person also had his facts mixed up and was trying to invent his own science and invent his own knowledge of hinduism which was untrue.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Ringo & Co.

I'd like to be under the sea
In an Orthodox garden in the shade
His beit din, knows what we've eaten
In his Orthodox garden in the shade

I'd ask my chevrusa to come and see
An Orthodox garden with me
I'd like to be under the sea
In an Orthodox garden in the shade.

We would be warm, safe from the frum
In our little shtiebl beneath the waves
Saying our davening with our sea tefillin
In an Orthodox garden near a cave

We would have a fabrengen each evening
because we know we can't be eaten
I'd like to be under the sea
In an Orthox garden in the shade

We would schrei and swim by
The chassidim that lie beneath the waves
(Lie beneath the ocean waves)
Oh what joy for every Jew and Goy
Knowing they're happy and they're safe
(Happy and they're safe)

We would be so happy you and me
Gedolim there to tell us what to do
I'd like to be under the sea
In an Orthodox garden with you.

[Yid]

"Chevra Mehadrun, the Kashrus Advocacy of Rockland"

I have lived in Monsey for 17 years, and have never heard of this organization. I expect that this is nothing more than one person and $50 of fancy letterhead stationery.

[A. Nuran]

All fish can have parasites.

[WoolSilkCotton]

But now, parasites cannot have fish.

[Jochanan]

Hahaha. It's actually fun to watch these guys race each other to ban everything. They have no concept of halakha as a legal system, just as a purity test.

[steve]

I think this Rabbi Karp was very hasty in calling for a ban and the OU was also hasty (as usual)in dismissing his concerns. This warrants further investigation which should have been done already. Rabbi Shain below addressed the problem three weeks ago.

Yudel Shain said...
I don't know if all of the named Rabbis or organizations do have a good handle on infestation.
Rav Shlomo Miller should be coming out with something soon. Rav Via will be coming out with something soon.

The big question is "is this the worms in the flesh that Chazal addressed? If yes, then it's not ossur.

Wed Feb 03, 03:42:00 PM 2010

[shneerhere]

But Rokeach Sodium, MSG, & Preservatives in a can is ok.

Maybe this something to Karp about... (couldn't resist)

[Yakira]

Good one Jay!
A. Nuran: That was the first thing that came to my mind also; furthermore, most meats, if not all, have some type of parasites in them. It's just another facet of life and most of them are not detrimental to humans' health.

[libby in the hood]

I had Chabad friends that wouldn't use garlic during Passover. Anyone know why??? They could never give my an explanation. They just went along with the custom.

[Shlomo]

Libby don't start with Pesach food obsessions then you will really have opened a can of worms

[Chayim]

There is always farm salmon available and its much cheaper than wild salmon. If its got a kashruth problem than we stop eating it. We are Jews who follow Torah ideals not the secular ideas of being a pro abortion on demand murderer or homosexual disgusting deathstyle.

[effie]

Is there an ofishial list?

[jay]

@Chayim, are you insane or just stupid?
Rav Belsky, the rosh yeshiva of Torah V'Daas says that wild salmon is fine. Does that make him a pro abortion homosexual lifestyle supporter? Did you even know that farm raised salmon doesn't have the health benefits of wild salmon, that it is packed with fat and pesticides?

[Dr. Dave]

If the Chareidim spent one tenth the time they now spend on obsessing what goes in their mouths on obsessing what comes out of their mouths they would make everyone's lives better.

[harold]

Worms in fish - yech. I have always suspected this and that is why I don't eat sushi, only the non-fish versions. Should I now be concerned about cross contamination in their preparation? Do these worms survive the cooking/grilling process?

[ML]

Do these worms survive the cooking/grilling process?

As opposed to which ones?

[rabbidw]

Please remember in NYC the ou requires a hechsher on the water, so why not on the fish. I was just told that someone (Klausenberg) now requires a hechsher on eggs. Somewher someone is making money and laughing all the way to the bank.

[Isa]

Harold:
Worms do NOT survive the cooking/grilling process.
Any preparation hardware [knives etc] used in preparing the fish [chopping up for an example] before cooking should not be used on anything else before washing.
Did you know there can be parasites in beef?

[harold]

Do these worms survive the cooking/grilling process?

As opposed to which ones?

I am speaking about the Anisakis that they found to be in Salmon. Although I am not thrilled about this news, eating a dead worm is better than eating one live.

[harold]

If the OU says that it is kosher then it is fine by me. My kosher philosophy is very simple, as long as there is a reputable (in my eyes) kashrus organization or a reputable orthodox rabbi that says that something is allowed or is kosher it is fine by me. I do not believe in chumras. I try not to ask questions from rabbis if I feel that I can reason out the answer by myself. If I am wrong (in the absolute next world sense) because the organization or the rabbi was wrong, then I am not guilty since I did follow their advice. If I am wrong because I did not ask i.e. I did not know that what I did was wrong then I am a "shogeig". It is for this reason why I don't get excited when I hear of things like the elevator ban or this fishy fish ban. Just give me a way out and I’ll take it.

Let me give another example. I was going away to Israel for Pesach a few years back. I understand that when an American goes to Israel that many people hold that you must hold two days yom tov at both ends of the holiday. It made no sense to me so I gave a shot and asked a Chabad rabbi that I respected as to what the ruling was. He told me that the Rebbe did not take a stand on this issue and that there are some people that hold the two day ruling and some that say you can hold the way the Israeli's hold, one day. He then said that whatever I choose I should not feel guilty for both ways are right. I have been forever grateful for his ruling since I had a wonderful time that Pesach having only two days yom tov vs. the four days that some other Americans were holding.

Just got to love how one can find a comfort zone, if they want, in Judaism. I believe in bending without breaking. I do feel bad for people who are followers and don’t have this latitude but somehow they manage. As they say “es iz schver tzu zein a Yid”.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

If these morons ban lox they will have closed door on credibility with most other Jews. In fact it will be whispered that they aren't really Jews. There is panic in Boro Park that someone will discover worms in cholent.

[critical_minyan]

I think these fundamentalist Jews have finally jumped the shark with this new ban.
we shouldn't take the bait.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

This is rediculous. I think its a Purim Shpiel.

[Neandershort]

What some imbecile says in Yiddish does not obligate us.

[who knows?]

Harold, your approach to kashrut is out and out apikoyros to any true Haredi. Ask YOUR rav and follow the ruling blindly is the only valid way by them. The fact that you pick and choose rabbis and even use your own discreation, shows that you are unafraid of heaven and are an unrepentant sinner.

[Abracadabra]

Harold:
1 - I completely agree with you! Also, the rabbis of old would look for halachic ways to make things EASIER for Jews in the past - not harder.
2 - Maybe now that Jews are not being persecuted as in the past few hundred years (pogroms, starvation, laws against land ownership and professions, crushing poverty, etc) and life is comparatively much, much easier, people need to find other ways to make it hard to be a Jew. Hence the chumra craze and competition to find new chumras and restrictions.
3 - I have been looking for a rabbi who would give a ruling about an American keeping the second day of yom tov while in Israel. If you would be kind enough to tell me the name of the rabbi you asked and where I could find him, I would be eternally grateful to you! Please email me at abracadabra4321@yahoo.com - Thank you!!!

[Abracadabra]

Who Knows:

You are 100% WRONG!!

An example as to why is quoted in the article above:

"...Rabbi Dovid Cohen, administrative rabbinic coordinator for the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Rabbi Cohen said that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l once considered writing a teshuva (answer) explaining why salmon is kosher but did not, out of concern that it be used after his death to find justifications to prohibit the fish."

Why would Rav Moshe Feinstein zt'l be concerned that people would find justifications to prohibit the fish? Because over the years Rabbonim were aware that some people sought to make life HARDER for Jews, and Rabbonim had a MESORAH that it was their job to do the opposite! The job of Rabbonim was to clarify halacha and make halachic rulings based on the laws that exist, so that Jews can live comfortably within the framework of halachah. The Rabbonim of the past 2 thousand years were not interested in looking to make life more and more restrictive for no reason. I don't know why it has become the new "fashion in halachah" to make things more difficult and restrictive, but it comes from the ignorance of the layman, not from the wisdom of our Mesorah.

[Anon]

All fish can have parasites.

Posted by: A. Nuran

But now, parasites cannot have fish.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton

WSC - That was a GREAT line!!! Hah! :D

[A. Nuran]

I think these fundamentalist Jews have finally jumped the shark with this new ban.
we shouldn't take the bait

I hope not. Sharks are treif.

[Maskil]

Oh, WSC, I didn't get it before. Now I get it. Brilliant quip! Bravo.

[I like to call them "Pharasites."]

[Maskil]

According to the OU’s Rabbi Goldberg, at the end of the meeting in Brooklyn, a chassidishe rebbe in attendance asked Karp if he was implying that gedolim of yore ate treif. Rabbi Goldberg said that Karp explained, “they did not know what we know and that the fish is assur (forbidden) because we know how the bug works.

We have learned (Hulin 5b-6a) that a the beast of a tzaddik is protected from eating food of forbidden nature (even demai, which in a sense could be okay but is prohibited out of permanent doubt) whereas the tzaddik himself how much more so! And although this is brought down in agaddeta it is used to conclude a halacha regarding the permissivness of the shechita of a Kuthite (a.k.a. Samaritan) of that time and this application is halacha le-maaseh.

The rebbe's question was dead on, while the response of R' Karp was absolutely heretical.

[kasha varnishkas]

Make sure your lox is not the Nova kind, not enough salt. All that salt in regular lox would kill off any worms, so go ahead, have those "everything" bagels with lox and cream cheese, and if you see anything crawling out from between the bagel halves, just cheer for the survivor!

I can't believe that THIS is what occupies the minds of some people. I agree with those that believe this is all schematic towards $$$$$.

[SJ]

I think it's that there's some rabbis who would rather Judaism be something ascetic without any vestige of culture, and salmon has more to do with culture than with ritual.

[jay]

@rabbidw: the reason for the hechsher on eggs is simple: it's a guarantee that they are non fertile eggs. consequently any bloodspots in the egg are not a kashrut issue. They can be used anyway. So the eggs from a heschered supplier are supposedly from producers who stock no roosters

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Hope everyone who is fasting today has an easy one.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

these morons, i.e, the karp, the ass and the rest of them, are all suffering of ocd.
(elioshiv of course suffers in addition to that of acute senility).
in my humble opinion. they should ban all food and drinks, and hopefully that will lead them to extinction from starvation, leaving the rest of us to conduct our lives, obeying the real torah laws in peace.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

lamb and cows all have worms in their cranial cavities. they should ban these too!

[harold]

I have been looking for a rabbi who would give a ruling about an American keeping the second day of yom tov while in Israel

Check out this publication: http://bethsholom.org/Documents/JuneMessFINALweb.pdf

Yom Tov Observance in Israel

As people travel to Israel more frequently, I’m often asked: "Our family will be going to Israel for Yom Tov. Do I observe the holiday for one or two days?"

There are three schools of thought on this question.

...

2) The Chacham Tzvi Ashkenazi lived at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century. He argued that any Jew celebrating the Yom Tov while in Israel should observe one day. He argued that the idea of keeping two days of Yom Tov only applied in the Diaspora. If someone was in Israel during Yom Tov even accidentally there would be no reason to observe two days. The Chacham Tzvi believes that the entire question is not how we define ourselves but where are we at the time of the Yom Tov, (when in Rome do as the Romans).

...

In conclusion there are three schools of thought regarding a Jew living in the Diaspora and visiting Israel for a Yom Tov: two days, one day or a day and one half. I have personally concluded that the opinion of the Chacham Tzvi is the most correct. It is very uncomfortable to travel to Israel and act in a way contrary to the religious practices of the place. The entire reason of the second day is only for the Jews of the Diaspora. To bring a Diaspora custom and impose it on the land does not feel comfortable. We have waited two thousand years to have our own country. We should embrace the opportunity to observe the Torah as it was written for our people in our land. It is a great privilege. An additional idea to consider is that if a man does observe two days then he will not wear tefillin on the last day of the Yom Tov and that is a Torah positive commandment, while keeping a second day is only a custom. A custom should not override a Torah mitzvah.

Rabbi Joel Tessler

Here is the website of the shul that the Rabbi belongs to and an excerpt from the site http://www.bethsholom.org/

Welcome to Beth Sholom Congregation & Talmud Torah (BSCTT). We are an Orthodox Jewish Congregation whose ethics, values, beliefs and practices are based on the Torah and halacha (Jewish law).

Our congregation strives to integrate Jewish law and values with the positive aspects of the secular world. We provide a nurturing and welcoming environment that encourages Jewish spiritual and intellectual growth. We celebrate together in times of joy, and support each other in times of need.

Their contact info page is http://www.bethsholom.org/contactus.htm

Mind you, this was not where I got my heter, but is nice to find another source and therefore less guilt (as if there was any to start with). Thanks for the nudge to make me find another source.

[David]

This is most probably a Purim Prank (like the oil 'found' in Bnei Brak).

Unfortunatly, due to the growing fundamentalism in the Orthodox world this story is believable.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

The fish narishkeit inspired me to write about the backlash which consists of a movement called "true-torah." Check it out.

http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/true-torah-movement/

[Maskil]

[Shmarya, if you start a post on the subject this won't have to be discussed here.]

harold, you really researched it? You found three schools of thought.?
1. What say they to those who keep second day in Israel - should they put on tefillin w/o a bracha?
2. And Israeli's in the Diaspora, tefillin with or w/o a bracha on the last day?

[harold]

harold, you really researched it? You found three schools of thought.?

I found the publication and included excerpts from it. See http://bethsholom.org/Documents/JuneMessFINALweb.pdf where they discuss the two other options. Any questions should be addressed to Rabbi Joel Tessler. The contact info can be found at http://www.bethsholom.org/contactus.htm

[Steven in UK]

NO " I am not so gelable, as to fall for this silly Purim wind-up !.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

I have a new posting about the modern orthodox launching and winning the war against chumras. Yep, satire. It gets triggered by a ban on lox and sushi.

http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/true-torah-movement/

Have a freylich Purim.

[:)]

We are Jews who follow Torah ideals not the secular ideas of being a pro abortion on demand murderer or homosexual disgusting deathstyle.

Posted by: Chayim | February 24, 2010 at 06:20 PM

Guess the worms ate your brain!

[.]

Ha! See, you can't tell: is it real charedi or is it purim torah charedi?

[chabadnik attorney]

Must be Chabad.

[Chayim]

Better to eat farm salmon that is not as healthy as wild salmon than get your soul stained from sin. I just threw out 4 packs of wild salmon and ordered my grocery to send me only farm salmon.
CHAREIDI POWER NUMBER ONE