Woman Sprays Haredi Man With Tear Gas In Bus Fracas

Woman refused to move to back of bus, was arrested for assault.

Woman sprays tear gas at Orthodox man in bus segregation fracas
YAAKOV LAPPIN • JERUSALEM POST

A woman who boarded a bus designated for religious passengers sprayed tear gas at an Orthodox man who demanded she move to the rear section last week in Ashdod.

The incident began on Friday, when an 18-year-old Orthodox man noticed the woman, 60, sitting at the front of the bus on a route on which men and women are segregated for purposes of religious modesty.

The man objected to the woman's seating location, and asked her to move to the back, police said, but she refused to budge.

The exchange quickly escalated into a confrontation, police said.

After being cursed at repeatedly, the woman told him to "shut up," adding, "What do you care where I sit? So what if this is a religious bus? Nothing will happen if I sit at the front," according to her police interrogation transcript.

The woman then sprayed tear gas "to scare the youth who was yelling at me," she told officers.

The bus driver stopped the vehicle, and opened the doors to air out the bus, while the young religious man called the police.

The woman was detained for questioning and released on bail. She is suspected of assault.

Comments

[seymour]

I can't believe this story an orthodox man calling the police on another Jew

[Phillip]

The woman is verbally assaulted by an 18
year old punk. Yet she is arrested for
assault.
There is something wrong with this........
Israel... the new Iran.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The new Rosa Parks! Rosa Parkowitz?

[Dr. Dave]

If every woman, soldier and police officer who is harrassed by one of these a**holes carries and uses pepper spray, there would be a rapid change in chareidi behavior.

They might even learn some derech eretz (manners).

On the down side Shmaraya might run out of stories to blog about.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Good for her. Israel needs thousands more like her.

The pig who arrested her should be fired.

[george smith]

Hey, if you're a man who wants segregation, sit in the back of the bus!

[Hometown Postville]

KUDOS to her!! Anyone able to donate a case of pepper spray to send over? Cuz now the rabbis will probably ban it and demand strip searches of all women before they board the bus!

[effie]

Good for her!

[Jakes]

Where does an 18 yr old get student off telling a 60 yr old woman to move seats? I was taught to give up a seat for older passengers.

[PulpitRabbi]

I wonder, under Israeli law, isn't the threat of assault sufficient to permit the woman to act as she did? Won't the youth risk arrest?

[Ben]

"She is suspected of assault" and what about the screaming yeshiva student? He walks free?

Lots of people should stand against this insanity, otherwise Haredizm is going to destroy us all.

[Muss]

I was wondering when someone would start pushing back at the insane Haredim (i.e., not all Haredim). The situation is infuriating. I keep hoping that the someone gives these extremists a heavy dose of their own medicine.

[Jonathan]

If the haredi and secular birthrates continue to travel in inverse direction, this will become the norm and a theocrazy will prevail.

[steve]

You go girl!

[Ira]

Am I missing something here? According to the story, this is a lawfully gender separate bus. This woman knew that when she got on. If she wanted to sit in the front, her choice then was to take another, non-segregated bus, or comply with the law and sit where she is supposed to sit. Since she chose to sit where she should not have been sitting, any man on the bus, 18 years old or not, had a perfect right to ask her to move, politely or not, and comply with the law. Instead, she chose to make a statement and stage a sit in, for which she should have been arrested. By spraying him, she compounded her violation of the law, and should be prosecuted. We may or may not like gender separate buses (I personally don't) but as long as they are allowed, the sensibilities of the people who use them should be respected. This is not a civil rights issue, and this woman is no Rosa Parks.

[Ben]

It is civil rights issue. In this case a fundamentalist parasitical minority imposes their mores on entire population using any means possible. They use law when possible, they use force when possible and they use lies when necessary.

By the way, racially segregated busses were also a law. Rosa Parks broke the law when he sat in the white only section of the bus.

[Allan]

The guy got what he deserved.

This idea of segregated buses reminds me of how blacks were mistreated - this isn't progress.

If he wants to be seperate, let him go to the back of the bus.

[effie]

PulpitRabbi: If some one is screaming profanities at you and getting in your face, it's an assault.

[effie]

Ira: Even if a crime was committed by her refusing to sit in the back of the bus (eyeroll), he had no right to scream obscenities at her and act in a menacing manner. That is a separate crime committed by him and him alone.

No one appointed the charedi to be judge, jury, and executioner.

[Mr. Apikorus]

It's not quite an assault, Effie, but according to a Supreme Court ruling in 1943, such behavior constitutes "fighting words" (in the USA, don't know about Israel).

One generally cannot be tried for assault for cussing at someone, for calling a Jew a "Nazi" and the like. On the other hand, if the person cussed at clocks you, he (or she) is protected by the "fighting words" doctrine.

Unfortunately, the US Supreme Court was vague on what "fighting words" were. It was in the realm of what Justice Warren, I believe, said about pornography, "I know it when I see it."

[sephardic-male(now shinto convert)]

why is Ira making excuses for Gynophobia? FYI racial segregation was the law of the land in the southern U.S.A before 1964

[Maskil]

george smith:
These busses are not the busses Rosa Parks rode on. These busses have back doors (sometimes two sets). Anyone who rides the bus daily in Israel knows that being allowed to enter through the back or middle door is a wonderful convenience, and even more so if that rider doesn't have to go to the front to pay. If the men occupied the back seats of the bus they would create severe inconvenience for the women who are with children, strollers or groceries.

To Ira (re: just follow the rules) and to everyone else who thinks this vigilante justice should be perpetuated:

This story took place in Ashdod. People living in centers of concentrated Haredi populations know that common practice dictates that elderly women sitting in the front seats (for whatever reason) will be completely tolerated and respected, and can be considered part of the segregated seating rules and not the exception.

This is what you get for not having segregated seating on the busses. i.e. there are people who do not understand or respect segregated seating etiquette.

[PulpitRabbi]

Effie: PulpitRabbi: If some one is screaming profanities at you and getting in your face, it's an assault.

Exactly, so shouldn't the yeshiva guy be arrested, too?

I may be Orthodox and be all for greater observance (yes, I proudly am), but that does not include assaulting or otherwise behaving disrespectfully to women. In my Shulchan Aruch, you know, the standard edition that served us well for a long time and is still in use, I cannot find any se'if about being required or allowed to assault women, or even scream at them.

[levi]

mr maskil, the assumption is that women are doing all the shlepping of children and groceries, because men will only have to carry a book at most?

[effie]

Mr. Apikorus: It's more than fighting words when they get in your face, invade your personal space, and a reasonable person would feel threatened by such behavior.

PulpitRabbi: Because it appears that the law is imposed in a very biased manner in Israel. She probably didn't know that she could have demanded that he be arrested, not only for assault but probably for disturbing the peace, too.

[confused]

Purely on the issue of law and order, the lady was the one who escalated it to armed conflict, which may be why she was arrested and not the student (who obviously needs a refresher course on derech eretz).

BTW does anyone know if isreali regarding self defense include a “duty to retreat”?

[effie]

confused:

Wrong. Assuming discrimination is legal in Israel and a woman sitting in the front of the bus was illegal. The escalation came from the thug screaming obscenities at her and acting in a threatening manner to the point that the old lady felt threatened and defended her self. She was arrested because Israel is a sexist society and she did not know her rights at the time.

Also, I doubt in jurisdictions that still require a duty to retreat before the use of deadly force require a duty to retreat before using *non deadly force.*

[:)]

To hell with pepper spray-she should have kicked the S.O.B. in the gonads. Once people begin fighting back, these a**holes will stop acting like a**holes.

Maybe a few kicks to the groin will keep them from replicating.

[ML]

It's about time.

[confused]

First escalation was the thug screaming obscenities, she escalated it further by involving a weapon, granted a non lethal one. I am willing to assume the police in isreal know their jobs, hopefully she will press counter charge and the police can pick the student up as well.

I’m still researching the whole “duty to retreat” & non lethal force thing, it’s a topic I find interesting, can you suggest a link?

[seymour]

I am not sure that these buses are by Law segregated> it could be there is a sign but maybe it is not written in the law.

and if it is when a law is immoral we must defend the brave souls who fight the wrong law

[Dave]

To all those who say that this 60 year old woman was wrong to sit in front of the bus because the bus was lawfully segregated for religious reasons, I would remind them that there is a HIGHER law we must all follow; A law the Haredi world has forgotten.

They have lost themselves in the trees, ignoring the greater forest. They have built so many chumras, or fences around the Torah, that they have lost sight of what they are making chumras for. I commend this woman for standing up against the legalized, immoral status quo. Most Orthodox Jews are against the segregation, and soon enough Israel will find its moral core again. Til then, these Haredi punks should learn to respect their elders and be kind to the fairer sex.

[seymour]

Interesting in VIN comments most are giving a thumbs up for the woman and really berating the punk

[effie]

"I’m still researching the whole “duty to retreat” & non lethal force thing, it’s a topic I find interesting, can you suggest a link? Posted by: confused"

No. And my inability to read Hebrew would hinder me from finding one. You can try going to the Israeli court site and searching there. But apply common sense. If someone came up to you and got in your face or blocked your path, your natural inclination would be to push them out of your way or back. Under your analysis, that would be a crime. It's certainly not the law in the US.

Israel just changed the law that said there was a duty to retreat when people were invading your own home. How crazy was that? Unfortunately, the UK has the same law still on the books. Can you imagine having to run away from burglars in the middle of the night instead of defending your home and family?

[effie]

"First escalation was the thug screaming obscenities, she escalated it further by involving a weapon, granted a non lethal one."

Escalation is what occurred that led up to her spraying him. That is what she was arrested for.

"I am willing to assume the police in isreal know their jobs...."

Their jobs don't entail the ultimate filing of charges and findings of guilt. Nor are they the ultimate authority in the factual basis to a crime in that they are rarely witnesses. Otherwise, why have trials? Why have appeals?

[SJ]

Welcome to the Jewish Islamic Republic of Israel.

[Mr. Apikorus]

"Old Lady?" She's 60. I'm 63. Don't know about her, but I, who ran 10K last week (not very fast, but I ran it, not walked it), sure ain't old.

Let AC call me an old man, living in a retirement community (with a fiancee 12 years my junior). One day he'll find out otherwise.

[JJ]

The majority of you posters have such biased opinions its unbelievable. The hatred just jumps out at me from reading some of them.
How can you guys even judge this story if you come biased against segregated buses. I hope none of you are lawyers or judges because your minds are easily swayed by your emotions.
Fact: The bus was a chareidi segregated bus.
Fact: This woman knew that and sat in the front anyways.
Fact: By sitting there she was being inciteful and new it would piss people off.
Fact: She carries tear gas (last time I checked commandos and riot cops carry tear gas)
Fact: Her response for sitting there wasn't "I'm elderly, infirm....It was why do you care? So what if this is a religious bus. Clearly antagonistic and disrespectful of the sensitivities of the passengers.
Fact: She was not physically attacked.
Fact: She sprayed tear gas at a defenseless boy and harmed other passengers (as is evidenced by the driver having to open the door to let the gas out. Tear gas is serious stuff people!)

Fact: The boy got on a religious bus expecting it to be segregated.
Fact: It was not because of this woman.
Fact: This bothered him because of his religious sensitivities and upbringing.
Fact: He asked her nicely to move and she indignantly declined.
Fact: Things got heated he raised his voice and used language unbecoming a ben torah. He was chutzpahdik. Although that's Israelis for you they are all like that besides for a few rare exceptions I will not excuse. His conduct. He is a yeshivah boy and needs to act like one.

Conclusion: Although the boy was certainly out of line if this woman really felt threatened she could have turned to the driver for support or just sat in the back like she should have in the first place. She chose to make a stand in a very aggressive and criminal way endangering the 18 year old boys eye sight and those of the other passengers. Two wrongs don't make a right but let's be fair this woman was begging to get into a toussle and she got what she deserved. A chance to cool her heels in a cell.

If you disagree then present it with fact and logic please.

[Ben]

JJ, the guy asked her to move and she refused. After that yeshiva student should have stopped or asked the driver to enforse the rules, because he himself does not have any enforcement rights. Instead he screamed obseneties. This is point when the assault has started, verbal assult.

The yeshiva student should have been arrested and he was not. This is a shame.

[Mr. Apikorus]

You can take your "facts," JJ, and stick them where the son never shines.

If this was a "defenseless" 18-year-old child he shouldn't have be cussing out a 60-year-old woman.

When I was 18, I was a grown man and hardly "defenseless." But then, I wasn't a skinny, four-eyed yeshiva bochur.

Laws against religious segregration are just as vile as laws against racial segregation, and it's the DUTY of righteous Jews and everyone else to disobey them.

You're absolutely right: It pisses frumbags like yourself off. That's just too damn bad. Desert Storm pissed Saddam off, too.

[R]

Segregated buses are abusive and repulsive.
If charedim want a bus service that treats other community members like they are dirt, then they can find their own buses and fund them themselves.
Along with that, no one should donate to their causes. You will find that they will not be able to make their own bus service and that they need to use the buses themselves. This whole segregation will die down.
As for the cocky arrogant 18 year old. He needs a good kick, verbally assaults a woman who is old enough to be his grandmother.
So instead of taking his nonsense and abuse, she retaliated and good for her, more people should do this. The ones who don't end up getting beaten up and left to die.
I am also wandering about the other passengers on the bus. Did no one tell the little brat to shut up and sit in his seat?
Maybe if the other passengers had helped, the woman would not have needed to use her spray.

[effie]

"She chose to make a stand in a very aggressive and criminal way endangering the 18 year old boys eye sight and those of the other passengers."

Hahahah! She sat there and refused to move. Oh, call out the swat team! There's a dangerous criminal on Bus #10!

Sitting quietly in a bus seat is neither dangerous nor criminal. The person who was aggressive and dangerous was the thug.

And his eyesight was not endangered. If he was close enough for her to squirt him in the face, he was too close especially since he was screaming obscenties at her. She felt threatened by him and had the right to defend herself.

[Ben]

By the way, why this 18 year old is not in the army? Is it because he is learning Torah all day and night?

[JJ]

According to all of you bigots with messed up logic if we get into an argument and it gets heated and I know I'm wrong and I have no defense for myself I have every right to pull out a can of tear gas and spray you in the face and if I blind you permanently, well oh well too bad I "felt threatened." You condone violence because it was perpetrated on a chareidi. If the roles were reversed you'd be on the chareidis case for being violent. You haters can go keep living dark miserable hatefilled lives you couldn't see truth if it stood right in front of your face.

[Mr. Apikorus]

I just figured out what "JJ" stands for. Hint: It's not the guy on "Good Times," Jewish Jackoff.

[JJ]

Mr. Apikorus I'm glad my post hit one of its marks. Whatcha gonna do spray me with tear gas? Maybe hit me with a baseballbat because I'm chareidi.

[confused]

There seems to be two discussions going on side by side here. One over the legality/illegality of the arrest and one about wrong/right.

An act of civil disobedience may be the right thing to do, but it is also by definition a premeditated illegal act, and as such deserves an arrest.

@ JJ none of your facts makes what this so called “student” did right, at a minimum his rosh yeshiva should send him back to the first grade to learn about respect for his elders (and imho this ladies grandchildren should perhaps give him a more direct lesson in manners.)

[laughingdragon]

There are different ways to deal with this "problem". First, there is no discussion of whether or not there was room in the back of the bus. Second, all of the men could have stood up and moved forward, shaming the woman for causing them such inconvenience. Third, all could have ignored her, as if she wasn't there, another form of shaming, more subtle perhaps. Finally, in most societies, women of a certain age are exempt from rules of segregation (because they no longer have the concerns of younger women).
I'm not so against segregated buses but it sounds like this woman didn't realize the bus was segregated when she got on or she had a reason for sitting down in front (tired, no room in back, fear that she didn't know where to get off, etc.)

[WoolSilkCotton]

As if women over age 50 didn't have enough problems on jdate.
Now we're saying that women of that age range are sexually nonentities. Some of us old guys would disagree...

[effie]

JJ: Thank you for misstating the facts and arguments and calling us bigots.

If the reasonable 60 year old woman would feel threatened, they have the right to protect themselves. Here, any reasonable person would feel threatened by a man screaming obscenities in their face.

You characterizing it as merely a heated argument is disingenuous and is not what occurred here. Also, repeating that tear gas could blind you permanently is also bogus.

You condone violence because it was perpetrated by a chareidi against a woman.

And talk about miserable hate-filled lives! Look in the mirror. You are the one arguing it's acceptable to act in a threatening manner to a 60 year old woman. That's sick!

[Hometown Postville]

Hail the new Rosa Parks! She too was on a segregated bus but chose to take a stand and made history! No one has touched on why this poor lady felt she had to carry tear gas. And where did she get it? Had she been screamed at, pinched, assaulted, pushed aside, etc. one too many times?

[Mr. Apikorus]

Laughingdragon, there is no room for compromise on this. That woman has the right to sit wherever she f**king wants, in the back, in the middle, in the front, without being harassed by haredi idiots.

It's the haredim's duty to change their ways, and move out of the 18th Century into the 21st. Or alternatively, they can move to Iran, where the coming wave of religious freedom will marginalize them there as well.

[JJ]

Effie
Your twisted logic shouldn't be called logic. In fact I won't call it logic. Yes many people here are bigots. You included. According to you physical violence is a permissive response to verbal abuse. Even if the guy was saying every four letter world which I'm sure he wasn't he probably said nasty things like you secular goytah sheygits whatever....DOESN'T EXCUSE VIOLENCE. Just like you gang up on chareidim (the few lunatics) that get violent at protests you should agree that this woman was phyically violent and this boy wasn't.
Nobody feels threatened on a full bus when another person is screaming at them. She just didn't like this young shnuk telling her off. Likely everything he said was correct albeit disrespectful. Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never harm me. You don't get violent because you don't like how someone is talking to you. His age and her age are irrelevant of that universal fact. Her response was criminal and I hope she is prosecuted to the full extent of the law and I hope this boy gets a tongue lashing from his Rabbis.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Some people here are assholes. You included, JJ. And I'm a secular "goyische sheygitz" and proud of it.

BTW, if you got in my face and started cussing me out (including calling me a secular goyische shaygetz), I'd kick your ass, punk, and enjoy every second of it. So would just about every other man on the planet.

[Dr. Dave]

The Chatam Sofer said:

Hechadash assur min haTorah b'chol makom

Since there were no busses in Torah or Talmudic times or even the time of the Chatam Sofer, the solution is simple.

Chareidim should stay OFF THE BUSSES!

[JJ]

Mr. Apikorus
Refuah Shelayma. You seem to suffer from a degenerative mental illness that short circuits your brain from thinking coherently and weighing things in a clear unbiased unemotional fashion. Or it could just be the product of someone proud to be secular. You rant and rave like a hate filled lunatic and my heart goes out to you. Your hatred for God is evident in your speech and morals. I wish that at some point in your life you merit having a moment of clarity. You badly need one.

[Mr. Apikorus]

What do you suppose would happen to you, Jewish Jackoff, if you were sitting on a bus and Charles Barkley sat down next to you? Would you pick a fight with him by cussing him out? Or would you keep your mouth shut because Barkley isn't a 60-year-old female?

Intolerant schmucks like yourself are poster boys for anti-Semitism.

[Jeff Eyges]

Intolerant schmucks like yourself are poster boys for anti-Semitism.

Agreed. Why is it that whenever a liberal or secular Jew criticizes the Hareidim, he's a "lunatic" who "hates God"? If that young man had beaten her up, people like JJ would trip over one another in their eagerness to defend him.

JJ, why are you even involved in this thread? Isn't it a sin for you to be doing anything other than learning "Toyreh" and mass-producing babies?

[A E ANDERSON]

Haredi aggression must be met and defeated with all the requisite force that is lawful and necessary.

It is sad that the parents of these haredi hoodlums utterly failed in their child-rearing duties and produced a generation of boorish thugs clad in yeshiva black.

The very existence of these haredi hoodlums proves the moral and religious illegitimacy of the haredi rabbanut and the haredi educational establishment in Israel.

[JJ]

Mr. Apikorus you have proven my point once again about your utter dearth of critical thinking skills. What does Charles Barkley have to do with this conversation. What's next? Maybe throw in Elvis just for the heck of it? The issue at hand is that it was a segregated religious bus which Israeli bus companies have provided for the demands of the large religious population that want it. There was a WOMAN (not an African American MALE ball player- rolling eyes at your idiocy) who was supposed to be sitting in the back who wasn't. Had she been ill and unable to walk that's one thing. Her only illness was her attitude. She came to pick a fight or make some pathetic stand. She was clearly in non compliance with the rules of the bus (you don't have to agree with the concept of the bus and I don't like it either, but once it exists you must respect the needs and sensitivities of those it was made for. Just because you're a 60 year old secular woman with a bone to pick with Charedim gives you no right to sit in the front and instigate people. Certainly spraying tear gas was illegal and that's why the cops arrested her. What's AMAZING is that your hatred for Charedim runs so deep you will ignore the facts that she clearly broke the law and acted like an animal by spraying him. She was in no danger. The driver would have gladly punched out the chareidi boy had he so much as laid a finger on her.

[JJ]

Jeff Eyges.
What need of yours do you fill when you invent such idiocy?
I agree that there is a faction among the Charedim in Israel that is aggressive and extreme. However you have NO RIGHT to generalize and lump them all together. Many of them are peace loving and just sincere people who want to live a holier life. They have every right to. Had this bus been a normal bus I would agree 1000% with all of you Additionally had the boy hit her Id be incensed! However that's not the case. I agree that he was out of line and acted pretty much like most non Jewish 18 year olds act today when they don't agree with something. He needs to be disciplined, but she was MORE in the wrong and acted illegally. A point many failed to mention is that she is 60. She should act like a MATURE ADULT and not be inciteful. She acted worse then him! He at least acted his age! You have to look at all the facts and when you don't that just shows you are biased and intolerant of others because they are different and you don't or won't try to understand them.

P.S. I'm an American (non Hasidic )Jew from Brooklyn. I just make an effort to see things from all perspectives. I try not to be a bigot like 99% of the crowd here.

[Mr. Apikorus]

I don't give a flying fuck what the Israeli government has done (this is a private bus line, btw). The US government, or more specifically certain states, had similar rules 50 years ago. It took people with a little guts to overturn them. No, schmuck, it wasn't all done within the law.

My point, assblackhat, is that this punk of a chassid went after a woman in late middle age, rather than Charles Barkley, who was listed at 6'6" and a very conservative 250. The reason I picked Barkley is that drunken idiots, notably one in Milwaukee, liked to pick fights with him, ending up in the ER for their troubles. Do you honestly believe if the woman were an Israeli soldier, in peak physical condition, this putz would have messed with her?

What I'd love to see is for one of the Birthright groups, perhaps led by 69-year-old Michael Steinhardt and his 60-something-year-old wife (who looks 35), to sit next to each other on one of these so-called "religious" buses, flanked by a co-ed busload of American kids. Let's see if the Israeli cops arrest them. The next Birthright trip might be to a far more tolerant country--Germany.

I'll be happy to take part in such a demonstration myself. It'll make up for my relative inactivity during the late 1960's when I was supposed to be doing this stuff.

But you're right about one thing: I despise intolerant Charedi frumbags like yourself who believe you can dictate the way others practice or don't practice their religion, in Israel and elsewhere.

[JJ]

Mr. Apikorus
I thought I was speaking to a rational person however after reading your last post its clear that you are far from it. Nothing I say will make a difference. You are an intolerant person who is more extreme than the so called extremists you are against. You make no effort to try to understand others positions. Its all about you and what you think and how you want the world to be. I can't blame you for being miserable. People with your attitude are miserable.
Have a nice life, I'm done with you.

[Jeff Eyges]

People with your attitude are miserable.

Yes, of course - this is what you have to keep telling yourselves, to stave off the nagging, ever-present doubt.

Meanwhile, anyone who's taken a brief walk through a Hareidi neighborhood has seen the frustration, misery and rage written on the faces of its inhabitants.

[JJ]

Jeff Eyges
Really? Wow you have a great imagination. Most Chareidim are quite happy.
I have met plenty of secular Jews and many are miserable. In addition many of the commenters here are secular and they come across as the most bitter bunch of people I've ever encountered.
Stop convincing yourself that Chareidim are miserable.
Oh and for the record, at leat educate yourself in what it means to be Jewish before you decide to live your life secular. (I said Jewish not Chareidi you don't have to be chareidi)

[Mr. Apikorus]

JJ, in your penultimate post, you called me a "lunatic" and that I "hate God." I guess I must have really outdid myself, if you now look back and say that I was "rational" before.

P.S. Michael Steinhardt claims to be an atheist. But he's done more for Judaism than you, your fellow Chabadniks, and your so-called "Messiah" Menachem Schneerson ever will.

[Mr. Apikorus]

JJ: Exhibit A with what's despicable about the ultra-Orthodox is what happened with this 18-year-old punk.

Exhibit B is the support the punk is getting from many of the haredim who post here. Fortunately, VIN of all websites seems to have far saner posters in this area.

Exhibit C is the second post from the top as of this writing, the one about the Ger Hasidim who tried to prevent a baby from approaching her daddy.

[X]

I suspect, the need for separate seating arrangements is biblically mandated - man is not allowed to touch a women or sit where she has sat when she is on her period. Obviously, the "Rosa Parkowitz" is long passed that age, so the "law" should not apply to her and this young punk should have recognized it if he knew anything about biology or anatomy. Moreover, if they wanted special accommodation for the religious, why not put them in the back of the bus? What if a pregnant woman sat in the front or an invalid? Would the police arrest the pregnant women for refusing to get up as this women did? ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING

[Mr. Apikorus]

X, I hope don't you believe it's OK for Israeli bus companies to demand that women of childbearing age sit segregated from men.

This is a public bus company, privately owned. The Monsey Bus Line is, too. I'm waiting for the first test case of a man and a woman sitting together on the bus, in "violation" of the illegal rule requiring the mechizta, to be arrested by the Monsey police, or any other police department.

(Actually, I think there may have already been such a case. The driver did nothing.)

If the other passengers don't like it, they can get out and walk. The good 'ol boys of yesteryear thought segregation was ordained by God, too.

[confused]

Actually SCOTUS has ruled that it is ok for a private entity to discriminate in certain cases. See “Boy Scouts of America v. Dale”.

Cut off any government subsidies from the gender separated bus lines and then forget they exist. You’re entitled to your opinion that gender separation is inherently wrong 99% of the time, the haredi are entitled to their opinion that it isn’t. (at least until the law changes.)

Although I wonder why the men cant sit in the back of the bus, as long as they get on from the center door it should satisfy the separation issue.

[Mr. Apikorus]

The Monsey Bus Company falls under the rules of public accomodation, and as such is subject to laws against segregation and against discrimination (separate but equal was tried, and didn't make the cut). It is not a religious institution. It's a bus company. Capice?

The Boy Scouts aren't. Are you less confused now?

Think of what would happen if, for example, American Airlines tried to segregate passengers by sex.

[confused]

I was never confused on the issue in the first place, I’m just pointing out that the issue is not as black and white you seem to think it is. There is a balance of conflicting rights at issue here.

If the American airlines itself tried to segregate a regular flight i would hope they get sued and loose big. If however the flight in question was privately chartered by a religious organization I would assume the organization that booked the flight would have the legal right to limit the sale of the seats on any basis they saw fit.

As to the monsey bus in particular, I think I recall something about them taking some kind of state subsidy. But if they are truly privately run, then imho they should have the right to decide who to allow to ride and under what conditions.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Monsey Trails is a bus company. It is not a synagogue on wheels, and if it tried to represent itself as such, any real court (as opposed to a Beit Din) would ROFL at them.

You can buy a ticket on Monsey Trails. So can I, who is not religious. So can my wife, who isn't Jewish. In fact, if you're in Monsey, and wish to use public transportation, it's probably the only way to go (although NJ Transit operates from not far, in Suffern).

As long as it's a bus company, open to the general public, it is subject to the laws of public accommodation, which mean, no segregation, no mechitza. Whether or not it gets a state subsidy is immaterial. Capice?

If some Chabad organization were to charter an El Al jet and fly it to Tel Aviv, they could enforce separate seating.

[confused]

The point I am making is that there are conflicting rights in play; the issue is not as black and white as you would make it.

Frankly I couldn’t care less if the monsey bus line has to allow women to sit wherever they want, nor could I care less if isreal (legislation or litigation) also outlaws segregated busses. Lots of frum jews use the nyc subway daily and don’t seem to have been damaged by the experience.

[Jeff Eyges]

Lots of frum jews use the nyc subway daily and don’t seem to have been damaged by the experience.

And that is precisely the point.

[Jeff Eyges]

Lots of frum jews use the nyc subway daily and don’t seem to have been damaged by the experience.

And that is precisely the point.

[Mr. Apikorus]

You can pray on the D train, too. In fact, I have. Every time I took the D train to school (I went to high school in the Bronx) and there was a looming exam or quiz.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Actually, Confused, I did a little research on this:

It turns out that there was a lawsuit challenging the mechitza. Representing Monsey Trails was the Becket Foundation, which often represents one side in a case involving religious freedom.

A settlement was reached. Monsey cannot hang a mechitza, nor enforce any religious prohibitions which conflict with the Civil Rights Act, such as where one can sit on a bus. On the other hand, if a passenger brings a mechitza with him (and it's always a "he"), he can use it to separate praying passengers from others.

So I can sit next to my non-Jewish wife on a Monsey Trails bus, and the driver can't do a thing about it, unless he wants a fight on his hands followed by a lawsuit (he'll lose both). The passengers, on the other hand, can hang the mechitza around us, so they can pray undisturbed in their antediluvian fashion.

[confused]

seems like a reasonable compromise was reached then. thank you for the information.

[toasty]

Ira
Let's not forget that, had no one ever broken the law, millions of our own people would not be alive today, for their grandparents would never have been saved from the "law" that ordered them toasted. Just because something is the law, that doesn't make it right. People SHOULD stand up against unfair and biased laws. This is indeed akin to Rosa Parks. Blacks were treated as poorly (or maybe not even as poorly) as the haredi (not all of them) treat their women. If no one ever stands up against such things, abuses continue on and on. If you really want to use the logic of "following the law," then you may as well claim that the people who were ordered killed by Hitler for helping to save the jews also deserved to be killed, because they broke the law. Have a nice fxxxn day, Ira.

[Michael]

I am Chabad and I have no problem sitting across from a woman on the bus, that being said I respect other people's rights and customs and would follow them in their neighborhood, i.e. the heavily charedi neighborhoods where these buses run. First of all the people who pay taxes in ashdod are haredi so they do pay for the buses. Sorry if not everyone has the same philosophy as you that it's wrong to have buses in which the community tries to make themselves comfortable in their own community. If one of you went to sit in the back the women would tell you to go sit in the front. Somehow every other person on the bus was able to comply with the community preference but this lady decided "to scare the youth who was yelling at me,". Sounds like teorrism to me. Who cares if someone yells at you for being a stubborn lady who is offending the many other passengers who, as you would know if you lived there, often are 80+ and not normally comfortable to ride a bus unless they are tznius according to their definition. They are not putting kosher buses in telaviv, were talking about charedi neighborhoods people, so drop the act about the minority oppressing the majority.

[Ashdope]

Wow, the Jewish Rosa Parks. i commend her. its hard to believe Ashdod has turned so frum :(

[David]

She was very wrong to use tear gas in this confrontation. She should have been carrying a pistol instead.

[esther]

hahahahahaha
that was a funny one

[Pandora Ireland]

I follow you VIA GFC and I love your blog!