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January 11, 2010

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Chicago Sam

Organized religion--you gotta love it!

Heilige Dick

Well it's not just the Hareidim that are extreme, it's the whole Judaism. If you work on the "holy" saturday you deserve the death penalty, and so many more. Whoever invented this religious is the most vicious person that ever existed!

Clue

Chicago Sam: Reform and Reconstructionist do not constitute a rejection of Orthodox Judaism? Haredi or not. Huh?

Ben

Chicago Sam, it does seem that we can never really leave. "Such a machmir place, such a tsnius space"

WoolSilkCotton

Chicago Sam, nicely done!

Chicago Sam

On a dark yeshiva pathway, cool wind in my hair
Sweet smell of esrogim, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, burnt bright yeshiva light
I had to stop in to davin, & be with Moshiach for the night
There the Rebbe stood in the doorway;
I heard the Yeshiva bell
And I was thinking to myself,
Could this be Haredi heaven or could this be Hasidisha hell?
Then he lit up a Havdala candle and showed me the way
There were voices down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say...

Welcome yunger leit and medeilach to hotel Haredi
Such a machmir place
Such a tsnisus space
Plenty of room at the hotel Haredi
Any time of year, you have minyans here

The Rebbes ‘divrei Torah, bent my mind with their depth,
Around the corner, hassidim park his Mercedes Bends
Rebbe’s got lot of pretty, pretty boys, that he calls “friends”
He invites them into his Beth HaMidrash, where he shows off the latest trends
Hassidish dancing in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.
Hassisha medalach looking, some blondes and brunets
All dance to remember, some dance to forget

So I called up the Mashgiach
please bring me my Havdala wine
He said, we haven’t had that spirit here since nineteen sixty nine
And still those voices are calling from far away,
Wake you up in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say...

Welcome baby to hotel Haredi
Such a machmir place
Such a tsnius space
Plenty of room at the hotel Haredi
Any time of year, you have minyans here
What a nice surprise, bring your alibis

Tzitzits hanging from the ceiling,
Delicious Vodka on ice
Rebbe said, “We are all machmirim, and command only the highest price”
And in the master beth hamidrash
As the rebbes face east,
They look to the sheina Rebbetzin , to get rid of all the Pesach yeast

The last thing I remember, I was
Running quickly for the door
I had to find the passage back
But instead I was greeted by Mr. Al Gore
We are all programmed to believe.
You can checkout any time you like,
But Frum people can never leave!

Welcome yunger leit and medeilach to hotel Haredi
Such a machmir place
Such a tsnisus space
Plenty of room at the hotel Haredi
Any time of year, you have minyans here

Ben

Chicago Sam, don't you think it is about us "you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave".

Chicago Sam

I hate to say it, but Haredism ought to be clinically treated as a kind of mental-disorder.

Their world is so binary--black and white--it is no wonder why so many abandon Jewish observances of any type altogether. However, I think there are better solutions that do not require a wholesale rejection of Haredi Orthodox Judaism. For this reason, I think Reform, Conservative, New Age, Reconstructionist, and Modern Orthodoxy are good choices to consider.

Many of those who gravitate toward becoming ba'ale teshuva frequently have psychological problems that nobody knows about until it's too late.

I thank my lucky stars that I abandoned that lifestyle over 28 years ago...

Local resident

The program is available in its entirety here for the next 7 days.

Ahavah

"The thing that always puzzles me is why someone would drop kashrut, Shabbat, or davening. "

"They left because they don't believe..."

I think you might be mistaken - they leave because they can't separate God from the UO lifestyle. They've been told either they stay UO or go to hell - and it's not like there's a "hell lite." They have to be taught that there IS legitimate Judaism outside of OU/Chereidi practice. They've been told otherwise their entire lives, and so when they bail, they figure they may as well bail all the way and go straight to the gutter (or, as they think, to experience ALL they've been missing). There is a sane middle ground, but a person who has just decided to basically commit suicide with their old life can't really think that straight.

Ahavah

I wonder if anyone has ever thought of setting up a "foster homes" sort of thing for people fleeing UO neighborhoods - kind of an "underground railroad" program that would send them to a Jewish (but not chereidi) household far, far away from their original neighborhood (or county, or state...)? The type of help Footsteps and Hillel gives require some money, if I understand them correctly (for rent, etc.), but a "foster home" could give them a few weeks or months to get on their feet without needing money immediately - as long as they agreed to begin work on their GED or whatever they need to begin college or job training or whatever. Thoughts?

Yoel Mechanic

David S. Thanks. your comments make sense, and you are right: Haredi -> MO would make a boring news story. The likes of Hella Winston would not bother to write a lurid book about it. Because, if it exists (which I really wonder!) it would *not* be lurid.

Yochanan Lavie

I know of someone who was Bobov, became a punk rocker for a time, and returned to observance as Modern Orthodox. But I think he is exceptional.

Ben

Haredi life has many restrictions YM. To follow these restrictions one has to see some worthy goal. If you divorce haredi lifestyle from believe in God, then all of the restrictions are similar to self mutilation, because Haredi lifstyle is not at all healthy.

Should a person mutilate him/herself without a worthy reason?

David Stern

"The thing that always puzzles me is why someone would drop kashrut, Shabbat, or davening. "

They left because they don't believe. Question is how many haredim become MO? Either they don't exist (I doubt that though personally I can't think of cases) or nobody is talking about it because it's boring. So if people still believe they stick with all the haredi customs nowadays whether they agree with them or not maybe - leaving the haredi community for that reason isn't big enough to make it worthwhile?

Yoel Mechanic

The thing that always puzzles me is why someone would drop kashrut, Shabbat, or davening. Why does someone who wants to drop all the frum-shtick and study engineering (which could be a very *good* thing) feel they have to let the yiddishkeit go with it too. Obviously, this is a deep issue.

R

Ben what do you call FFB? At some point someone is going to be a BT.

The problem with the charedim escaping their world is that they have no clue and often we see them going to complete opposite sides of the spectrum. They only know how to live on extremes. Extreme right or extreme left.
Is this organisation helping these people find the medium?

As for the statement of the man who has two kids at home who he can't see.
He has a girlfriend now so he knows what love is. That's very sweet. Did he not know what love was when his kids were born or did he not love them because his marriage was arranged?

As for the girl. She is simply acting out the opposite extreme to how she was brought up. Yes these people need help and maybe they need help with their own personal issues which a good psychologist could help them with.
As for the families making as if they don't exist. They are not helping matters.

Ben

The question is this - is haredi drop out rate goes up or down and how quickly?

There is an anecdotal evidence to say that number of children of baal teshuvot are dropping out, but what about davka frum from birth all the way to great grand parents haredim?

pierre

>What is the dropoout rate from the Charedi World in Israel? (that is those who leave it for another world (Secular, MO, Chrisian etc)

I would guess it is between 1 - 5%.

The post below gives links higher, as do anecdotal statements from R. Maroof and...that charedi rabbi who works with OTD people - both who claim alot;
http://www.threejews.net/2009/05/will-your-grandchilden-be-commited-jews.html

I would suggest its more than 8%, less than 20% - but I haven't the wherewithall to argue with the stats.

pierre

>He says he has only known four or five cases of people leaving in three decades of work, while he has seen thousands of Jews move from secular to religious lifestyles.

I have no idea what to say to this. I had heard such claims while at Aish, while ANOTHER story was that one of R. Weinberg's own sons was OTD. AND there was project Chazon - a whole effort by Aish...to address OTD kids and kids at risk!!!

www.xat.com/heimishfun

www.xat.com/heimishfun lol

confused

I wonder if he had the decency to give his wife a “get”, or did he leave a chained woman behind while he went out to experience his “freedom”.

critical_minyan

i know lots of chasidim who dont keep shabbes or kosher but still look outwardly like everyone else.
its not worth it for them to leave, but they believe less than even some conservative or reform jews.

David

What is the dropoout rate from the Charedi World in Israel? (that is those who leave it for another world (Secular, MO, Chrisian etc)

I would guess it is between 1 - 5%.

Ben

"He says he has only known four or five cases of people leaving in three decades of work, while he has seen thousands of Jews move from secular to religious lifestyles."

He may be truthful about the numbers that he experienced, but it only means that he is not working with people who are leaving haredizm. The other side of this is that haredizm prospered in the last 30 years, but I hope, their lucky run is coming to an end.

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