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January 26, 2010


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Dr. Dave

Herb yes late night typo


But if the rabbis take this seriously.... this could be a really really wonderful thing.

I'm tired of hearing people say that orthodox Jews think it's okay to scam the system and break secular laws as long as they keep halacha. We need to have the rabbis proclaim loudly and clearly that the laws of the land are important to us as Jews. This is a very good step in that direction.


Agrees with Chayim,

this is just a power grab on the part of the rabbi's.

these people have no training or qualifications in areas of law and nonreligious equity.

Herb D. Provence

"Yora yora, yadin yadin, even yitaher bechorot yitaher "

surely you don't mean "yatir bechoros do you?"


The modern orthodox hecsher tzedek are a bunch of phoneys. When they enlarged their hebrew institute of riverdale they used non union workers.Unions picketed and when the Jewish week newspaper asked the head of hecsher tzedek, his reply was that he makes leeway for synagouges. Imagine a multi million dollar institute refuses to use union workers so they can save on providing health benefits but they want every mom and pop struggling eatery to pay health benefits to their workers. phoneys phoneys phoneys.


The biggest phoneys are the modern orthodox for when it came to enlarging their riverdale institute they used NON UNION workers. The unions picketed and when the Jewsish week asked the head of hecsher tzedek why they are using non union, they responded that they make an exception to synagouges. So a multi million dollar institute can get away with non union workers and deny them health coverage but every mom and pop struggling eatery has to give health coverage to its workers. PHONEYS PHONEYS PHONEYS

Dr. Dave

Great, once we are finally following some Torah laws about kashrut, could we now get an ethical / Torah guideline hechser for the treatment of gerim. And agunot. And fundraising. And business dealing.

We should have an ethical hechsher of rabbis. It would show that one was an "erlicher yid", not an evil chumra wielding moron to whom the phrase: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies.

Yora yora, yadin yadin, even yitaher bechorot yitaher are nothing without living a true torah lifestyle of v'ahavta l'raecha k'mocha (love your fellow as yourself).



I use my car to drive my food around.

Old time observer

We owe it to the kosher consumer:

We in the field of Kashrus have accepted a fiduciary responsibility on behalf of the kosher consumer. Therefore, we owe our fidelity to the kosher consumer to uphold and maintain that fiduciary responsibility.

Executives who face troubling decisions are often confused about how to arrive at the right, moral and ethical course of action. This is not surprising since by definition a “moral dilemma” is one where there is no clear right and wrong, only positives and negatives.

We should be guided in our moral reasoning by the insight that comes from respecting the moral rights of the kosher consumer; justice to colleagues and peers; consequences and outcomes; explaining and defending to others as well as to ourselves the decisions we make.

Have I searched for all alternatives? Are there other ways I could look at the situation? Have I listened and considered all points of view of my colleagues and peers, while still maintaining high ethical standards?

Even if there is sound rationality for this decision, and even if I could defend it publicly, does my inner sense tell me this is right? Will my colleagues, peers, and the educated kosher consumer agree with my rationality?

Does this decision agree with my religious beliefs and with my personal principles and sense of responsibility to the kosher consumer? Would I want others in kashrus to make the same decision and to take the same action if faced with the same circumstances?

What are my true motives for this action? Would this action infringe on the moral rights and dignity of others? Would this action involve deceiving others in any way? Would I feel this action was just (ethical or fair) if I were on the other side of the decision? Am I being unduly influenced by others who may not be as sensitive to these ethical standards?

How would I feel (or how will I feel) if (or when) this action becomes known to the educated

Kosher consumer? Would others feel that my action or decision is ethically and morally justifiable to the educated kosher consumer? Can I justify my action as directly beneficial to the kosher consumer and to kashrus in general?

We can stretch and expand our moral reasoning and ethical judgment, and sharpen our ethical sensitivity and moral awareness by thinking through particular dilemmas in light of the above. If we consider all the questions discussed above with real intent and pure motives, then we can be confident that we will come with G-D’s help, to sound and ethical decisions.

When we achieve clarity as to the issues of the dilemma, we are better prepared to make a decision that is both right and defensible. We must remember that our goal is to achieve an ethical course of action in all areas of kashrus, not to find a way to construct a rational argument in support of an unethical decision.

Our daily decisions do (at times indirectly) impact the kosher consumer. We live in a world where other concerns e.g. profits etc., often come into conflict with the concern for ethics and principles; and where society is demanding a higher standard of kashrus, and a higher ethic of social responsibility to the kosher consumer.

We must be willing and able to give the kosher consumer in fact, that which the kosher consumer believes he / she is getting in theory.

We owe it to ourselves…..we are all “kosher-consumers”.

Yudel Shain
Kosher Consumers Union

Yerachmiel Lopin

The RCA stuff can coexist with the MT. Those that are more observant of halachah will just insist on a MT on top of an OU.


I am all for it as long as it does not raise the already high cost of kosher food. From my read the RCA guidelines make sense and should not impact the cost of hasgacha.

state of  disgust

Bill, do you drink gas???
If so I know an RCA rabbi who will paskin on the libation ... for a fee.


i think my gas station is putting 89 octane in the 92 octane pumps.

Can we get pipet-weilding rabbi to test my
gas for my gas for me?

This is absurd.


I applaud. The difference is, the RCA's version is supposed to make kosher consumers feel better about what they consume. The Conservative program is supposed to make consumers feel better about kashrut.

Scoff all you want, but it's quite possible that Magen Tzedek could appeal to a huge non-Jewish consumer base that already looks for things like organic and fair trade products. and be quite successful in that way.

And does anyone else get a smile at the fact that the "centrist" RCA is pushing leniency where the MT program is stricter? The irony is juicy. It couldn't be that the kosher establishment has an awful lot of skin in the game to get strict here.

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