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January 14, 2010

Exclusive: Shannon Orand In Her Own Words

Shannon Orand The woman at the center of the Rabbi Leib Tropper/Eternal Jewish Family scandal explains what really happened in that hotel room.

FailedMessiah.com spoke with Shannon Orand several times since the Tropper/Eternal Jewish Family scandal broke, and a couple times before that. Our most recent conversation took place yesterday.


Shannon converted to Orthodox Judaism in Israel in early January.


What follows is Shannon's explanation of how the scandal developed, put together from those conversations:

I was married to Charles Brady Orand. Brady had several affairs. I was very much a Christian. I believed if I prayed enough God would change him. That wasn’t going to happen.

My husband had wanted some sexual things that I wasn't comfortable with but did because they were important to him.

Brady was working in Ohio and coming home every other weekend. I decided to surprise him for Valentine’s one year and went up there and met all of his friends in a bar up there – a get-together party I went to.

We fought while I was up there and we decided to get divorced.

When I got back I got calls from two women. They told me I’d done the right thing. Brady had been sleeping with both of them and neither knew about the other or that he was married. So I separated, took the kids and went to an apartment.

I had kind of left Christianity and was not doing much at all religiously…There are rumors I had affairs. That’s not true … I started seeing a secular Israeli guy…very anti-religious, very against everything I now stand for.…He was also separated and going for a divorce.

He wanted to take me to Israel to meet all his friends over there.

When I was in Tel Aviv I contacted my mother. She was very religious, very Christian, and she was complaining I was spending all my time in Tel Aviv partying, going to clubs and meeting his friends and family, and on the beach. You’re in Israel and you’re not going to see the places Jesus was? So I decided to spend one day in Jerusalem. When I came back I started going back to a messianic synagogue – I had been involved in the messianic movement but not so seriously – and at the same time I started studying all the counter-missionary stuff. And then I started my studies [for conversion to Orthodox Judaism]. That started my studies.

Charles Brady Orand sex registry During the separation Brady molested my daughter. She was mine before I married him. She’s from my first marriage. My son is from my second marriage to Brady. She knew him as daddy. So when we were separated, that was her house, too, and she wanted to go back to visit and she wanted to see him. We had two kids – she didn’t know him as a stepdad.

When she had weekends available, she would go visit just like my son would go visit, just like a normal visitation, even though she wasn’t his child.

She was ten. My son was five.

One of the times, she came back, and nothing happened. But the next week – it was vacation, it was the 4th of July – she was supposed to go with him because I had to work and then go with my mother for the rest of the week, but she said no, I don’t want to go to daddy, I want to say here. We tried to talk her into it. She got very upset and said she can’t go. She pulled my niece aside and said you’ve got to help me. You’ve got to tell grandma not to let me go to daddy’s.

The next day my mother called me and said we have to talk. The reason my daughter didn’t want to go is because on the last visit he got into bed with her and messed with her. He fingered her and he hurt her. She said, “Daddy you’re hurting me,” but he wouldn’t stop.

My son and my daughter were in bed together when Brady abused my daughter. My daughter got away from him by asking to use the bathroom, and she tried to stay in the bathroom for a long time hoping he would fall asleep. But then she went back in the bed. We asked her why and she said, “Because my brother was there, I didn’t want him to hurt him. He was going to hurt my brother.” 

Brady was charged. We prepared for the trial. The prosecution had the doctor’s report of my daughter’s medical examination. It showed the physical damage. The first day of the trial he decided to take the plea bargain, which was ten years probation. So he didn’t have to serve time.

I was abused as a kid. I was so young, it wasn’t as if I was being violated – it was all that I knew. My daughter was old enough to know she was being violated. It started when I was three and I didn’t know anything was wrong until I was nine years old and there was a McGruff the Crime Dog program at school telling kids what’s wrong and what’s right. If anyone does this to you you go to an adult. That was the first time I knew anything was wrong and I right away said someone does that to me! A much older step-brother, my mother’s husband’s son.

My abuse was long-term. My daughter’s was one time, maybe. I thought maybe she wouldn’t suffer so much, but she did. She suffered terribly.

She chose to go to an all girls school just to avoid being around boys. She used to put up booby traps in her room when she’d sleep so no one could get in. She’s been affected very, very much.

It was a long divorce. He told friends that it wasn’t true, that he didn’t abuse my daughter, and that that this was all about me wanting to get half of the house. So I ended up dropping everything and signing the divorce papers right away and left with nothing and threw all of my focus into my daughter’s case. And then we went to the criminal trial.

He pled guilty in 2007. I agreed to the plea bargain that was in print. There were special restrictions for sex offenders. One of those was that he could not have any access to children under the age of eighteen.

While they were in front of the judge, his attorney said he wanted to add a line on there: “With the exception of my son, if the family court permits.” So he hand-wrote that on there.

The judge looked at that and said, that’s for the family courts to decide, and okayed it, not knowing there was already a standing court order – which was a divorce – which was a standard custody just like any other father gets, full access to my son.

So the DA took me out and said this was approved, this was put in there, you go to a family court right away and get this changed, so he can’t have access to your son. And that’s what I did.

He fought it and said he wants standard visitation. I wanted to leave Houston and get as far away from him as I can so he couldn’t have access to my son. My attorney said you’re going to have to take this to trial, and the trial is going to cost you at least $20,000. I went to friends. I went to advocacy organizations. I tried to find someone to take the case pro bono. She tried to bide time while I tried to come up with the $20,000. It wasn’t working and we had a deadline. She said: Either you come up with the money for the trial or we have to withdraw the case – and then it reverts back to the family court order and he gets full access to your son. And that is when I approached Rabbi Tropper, who was overseeing my conversion. He had access to money. He’s an organization and he had access to Tom Kaplan. He was a rabbi. I ended up crying to him about everything. I even told him about my husband's sexual demands. Tropper offered to help me. That was May 2009.

He created a job for me with EJF. He brought me to Monsey to meet everybody in the office, to have meetings with Rabbi Jacobs and Rabbi Medows about how I could help. I was going to raise money and I was going to run programs in Houston. That was June. 

He started pressuring me.The video was the first recording I did. It was in Monsey on that trip. That’s when I bought the camera. I didn’t have time to set it up. The date’s wrong on the video. When I saw it I said, oh, that’s wrong.

He wanted to get me together with his wife. He said he wouldn’t touch me. I didn’t know if she was going to do it. He asked what it would take to get me together with his wife. I said it made me very uncomfortable. I tried to get out of it a little bit and Tropper could tell I was uncomfortable. He said: Maybe if I wasn’t there you’d be more comfortable. Then I talked to Leba and found out she’d never really been with a woman. She’d just been making up stories to please Tropper. They were just lies. She’s very submissive. She’s a victim in all this. So I told Tropper I’d be much more comfortable if he wasn’t there, and if it would be an ‘encounter’ we’d tell him about later. Tropper wanted to be there for the last five minutes. He still said he wasn’t going to touch me but I wasn’t so sure, so I went out and bought the camera. Leba and I didn’t do anything. We just rehearsed our story, the story we would tell Tropper. When he called to say he was coming we got undressed and waited.

I knew someone who was well-connected in Israel with the rabbis. The tapes were supposed to go to leading rabbis and everything was supposed to be handled internally. And it was working. Rabbi Amar broke with EJF and the European rabbis publicly condemned EJF.

But someone leaked the tapes.

I didn’t know my name was on one until you told me on the phone. It was horrible. The trial was supposed to conclude Monday. My daughter was supposed to testify in the morning and then the verdict would have been that afternoon. When we got to court my ex-husband’s attorney had copies of the New York Post article. Because it said the money Tropper was giving me was for legal fees, it was admissible. My ex-husband’s attorney had been terrible throughout the trial. We’d been living as frum Jews for years, and his attorney used that against us. He played up Orthodoxy as some kind of religious cult. He made Modern Orthodoxy seem like hasidim. He also kept saying it was only one time, and that’s horrific to me, because how many times is okay for a father to rape a ten year old girl?

There was child porn. I found a lot of it [before the molestation]. He came up with excuses why it was there I fell for.

My attorney pulled me aside and said I’d have to explain the article on the stand. I said, “No, I can’t. This is a different case. It’s not relevant. It has nothing to do with my children. Somehow you’ve got to get it out of there.” But she said, no, it’s totally relevant. In there it says the money you received went to the attorneys. My attorneys had been in touch with Tropper all the time. Tropper is a control freak. He had constant contact with them wanting to know what was going on, and he was sending the checks. And they knew all the money was coming from him. And that put us in a tough spot, because we’d have to say the money came from him.

This would have extended the trial, and I was already $10,000 negative – the money Tropper wasn’t going to give me. She said, “Gosh, you can’t afford this, another week or two or three at $2,000 per day for me to represent you. The audios are going to have to come out.”

She said, “Your only choice is to settle. You’re going to have to allow visitation.”

I’m looking at a picture of me and Tropper being distributed all over the courthouse. I panicked and I freaked. To me, settlement was the only option we had. There’s no way I could get on the stand and go through all this stuff. I didn’t know until the Friday you called me that my name was connected to it.

They wanted regular visits with his wife as supervisor. I said no way. She’s never going to tell if something is wrong and she has to sleep sometime. She can’t stay awake for seventy-two hours three days straight. My son and my daughter were in the bed together when he abused her, and he had a girlfriend in the house. So just because she’s there it’s not going to protect my kid. So then it was, he can have visitation but no overnight visits. That’s what it ended up being. He can have them for the three days and his wife is the supervisor but he can’t keep them overnight.

“It was horrible watching my daughter fall apart like that. She’s just now getting better.”

UPDATE 11:20 am –

Tablet Magazine has a story on Shannon Orand's journey from preacher's daughter to Orthodox Jew.

Tablet has also posted some of the audio tapes, and transcripts of portions of those tapes.

UPDATE 11:05 pm 1-25-10 – I spoke with Aaron Mandl and Binyamin Medetsky of Houston, Texas.

Both are prominent in the Houston Jewish community. Each contacted me separately with the same complaint: comments left here using their names (or a very close approximation of their names).

Both pointed out they had left no comments here and said the comments left in their names did not reflect their views.

Sockpuppeting – the impersonation of a person online – is a crime.

It is also unethical and will not be tolerated.

I have deleted those comments and banned the people who left them.

The Post That Broke The Story.

Comments

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"...My attorneys had been in touch with Tropper all the time. Tropper is a control freak. He had constant contact with them wanting to know what was going on, and he was sending the checks. And they knew all the money was coming from him. And that put us in a tough spot, because we’d have to say the money came from him...."

shannon- i don't recall the specifics of the rule, but i beleive what your attorney did is a violation of one of the ethical rules that attorneys must follow. you may have grounds to file a grievance with the state bar association and/or a malpractice claim against your attorney. if i recall correctly, such a situation (where one party pays another's legal bills) is highly frowned upon, since your attorney is caught in an obvious conflict of interest between protecting the client's rights and protecting the interests of whoever is paying the bills (such as in your case).

tropper was helping her. that was good of him. give him that.
he shouldn't have let his penis think for him and he shouldn't have blackmailed her with the conversion.

but give the scumbag rabbi some credit. He helped out an idealistic woman going through a genuine conversion with some financial and emotional assistance. He couldnt resist his demons, but at first he seemed to be doing the right thing.

wait a second, the video tape shows shannon, tropper and troppers wife having sex...the audio tapes show clearly that tropper was involved physically with her, she previously said that tropper was making her have sex with other men as well, what changed? why is the story different?

There seems to be holes in this story.
What picture with Tropper?

"I knew someone who was well-connected in Israel with the rabbis. The tapes were supposed to go to leading rabbis and everything was supposed to be handled internally. And it was working. Rabbi Amar broke with EJF and the European rabbis publicly condemned EJF."

1. Timeframe please. When did these rabbis learn of the Tropper tapes?

2. The implication is that they knew about the sexual scandal and had no intention of removing him - merely of sidelining EJF (and not that effectively). Ie they were basically going to let him, personally, off the hook.

Seems to me that this lady is crazy...

EJF still protelyzing!!!trying to bribe rabbis in Dallas

I just got off the phone with a Rabbi in Dallas...
EJF IS RUNNING AN OUTREACH SEMINAR FOR INTERMARRIED COUPLES THIS WEEKEND IN DALLAS TX!!!!!
SEE http://www.ejfseminars.org/

HEARD THEY OFFERED "HONORARIUMS" TO DALLAS RABBIS TO PARTICIPATE MANY RABBIS WERE INSTRUCTED BY THEIR RABBIS NOT TO ATTEND OR TAKE A NICKEL

one rabbi who has no position in the community has accepted "thousands to come for the weekend".

EJF=outreach to non jews=offering money to rabbis to attend =corruption!
with or without LT
here
check things ut with the dallas rabbis of DATA Kollel
Ohr Hatorah dallas
Congregation Toras Chayim
Data of Plano
Data of far North dallas

Tropper, EJF, Rabbi Weiss and Chabad should face civil suits. Hit them where it hurts.

Pass Markey and go after him and the institutions that protected him in the civil courts.

Church liability at issue in abuse suit
State Supreme Court considers responsibility for congregants’ actions
By Steve Kanigher
Las Vegas Sun
Wednesday, Jan. 13, 2010

(Excerpts)

A national debate over the extent to which a religious group can be held liable for sexual misconduct by its clergy or its volunteers has made its way to the doorstep of the Nevada Supreme Court.

Because lawsuits alleging sexual abuse by clerics have typically been settled before trials could take place, the state’s courts have not delved very far into the issue of religious groups’ liability for sexual abuse. That’s about to change as the high court considers a case involving a Las Vegas woman who claims she was sexually assaulted nine years ago by a man she described as a cantor at a synagogue.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic bishops of Las Vegas and Reno have lined up with the synagogue to argue that the First Amendment shields religions from lawsuits of this type.

But groups including the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, and the National Association to Prevent Sexual Abuse of Children accuse the churches of attempting to “twist the First Amendment into a refuge for harmful behavior.”

Marci Hamilton, a professor at Yeshiva University’s Cardozo School of Law in New York City who wrote the counterpoint for the advocacy groups in the Nevada case, says religious groups want to eliminate costly litigation and keep misconduct out of the public eye.

...


At the center of the Nevada case is (name of survivor removed), who filed a lawsuit in District Court in Clark County in 2003 against Chabad of Southern Nevada, Chabad of Summerlin, two rabbis and other individuals she said were affiliated with the two Orthodox synagogues. She alleged that Michael Segelstein was a Chabad cantor when he assaulted her in 2001 in the parking lot of another synagogue.

(name of survivor removed), alleged that a Chabad rabbi refused to believe her when she told him what Segelstein had done and that the synagogue retaliated against her and her then-teenage son. She alleged that the synagogues, as well as Segelstein, were liable for the assault.

Segelstein pleaded guilty in 2002 to open or gross lewdness. His sentence of one year in jail was suspended under the condition that he successfully completed three years of probation.

(name of survivor removed), lost her lawsuit, however. District Judge Timothy Williams ruled there was no direct connection between Chabad and the assault. (name of survivor removed), also failed to prove that Segelstein was a Chabad employee, Williams found.

She filed an appeal in 2007 with the Supreme Court, where, during the past several months, the additional churches and the national victims advocacy groups joined the fray and made the case more significant.

Las Vegas attorney David Frederick, who is representing Chabad and the other defendants, did not return the Sun’s calls seeking comment. In court filings, he argues that the First Amendment offers protections of religion that apply in this case. For one, (name of survivor removed)’s claims of retaliation and harassment by Chabad are outweighed by a religious entity’s right to decide church membership and discipline, Frederick writes in his court briefs. He contends that a religion’s rights extend to decisions regarding its spiritual personnel.

Expanding on arguments made by Frederick, the Mormon church, in a court brief filed in October — and later joined by the Roman Catholic bishops of Las Vegas and Reno — argued that churches’ liability for sexual assault claims and other disputes involving clergy misconduct is limited because of religious freedoms protected by the First Amendment.

...

>Pass Markey and go after him and the
>institutions that protected him in
>the civil courts.

The him is Mondrowitz.

No, YOU people are crazy. Two small children have to go to see a man who put his hand up his 10 year old daughter's vagina, and she now has to 'visit' her rapist for three days a month.

And all you can think about is the timeframe of the videos and Ms. Orand's own rape? Because it is rape. Telling someone that you will help them save the life of their child if you 'agree' to their sexual demands is rape. Her child's life was at stake - emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically, since many abuse survivors have problems later on that result in suicide, addiction, eating disorders, severe phobias, inability to protect themselves from further abuse as an adult.

Please tell me you're on drugs. Tell me you're ultra-ultra-ultra orthodox. Tell me your posts were a knee-jerk reaction of callousness that protects you from facing the true damage of any abuse you personally underwent as a child.

Tropper is a discusting human being but Ms. Orand is not any better to me. If she wanted to convert to Orthodox Judaism, she should have realized that there was something at the very least ethically and morally with what Tropper was making her do.

I understand what her husband did to her kids but on the other hand she justifies her actions by saying that Tropper was financing her trial but to me the ends do not justify the means.

In the long run 20K dollars is not 1 million dollars and she should have acquired that money without selling her soul to the devil.

Did R Amar publically break from CJF before or after the tapes were leaked?????

Did CER break from Tropper before or after the tapes were leaked? After.
I beleive nobody broke from Tropper publically before the tapes were released. That is why they were released amongst other reasons.


Which Rabbis received the tapes?

Which rabbi made the tapes available for distribution?

Of course Tropper is a well, I won't type it here.
And I wish Rachel well.
This is what was written" knew someone who was well-connected in Israel with the rabbis. The tapes were supposed to go to leading rabbis and everything was supposed to be handled internally. And it was working. Rabbi Amar broke with EJF and the European rabbis publicly condemned EJF.

But someone leaked the tapes.
"

"My attorneys had been in touch with Tropper all the time. . .He had constant contact with them wanting to know what was going on, and he was sending the checks. And they knew all the money was coming from him. And that put us in a tough spot, because we’d have to say the money came from him."

Was any tax-deducted "charity" money that was donated to EJF or its parent or affiliated non-profit religious or educational organizations used to pay Orand's personal, private legal fees? If so, was that a legal or an illegal use of charity funds? Or did Tropper pay her legal fees out of his own, personal private funds?

The European rabbis broke with EJF before the tapes were released.

The video does NOT show anyone having sex.

Some rabbis who saw and heard the tapes acted (the non-Chabad European rabbis and, less publicly, Rabbi Amar). Most of the others did nothing, believing that the tapes were not enough evidence.

The strangest part is that this is supposedly a conversation between her and Shmarya but Shmarya is oddly not reporting having asked her any questions nor her answers to his questions.

Shmarya is also generally known to always want to record all such type of conversations so why no audio?

This brings in to question the credibility of this entire report.

The only logical conclusion of these questions and all the other questions which others have asked regarding this new report, is that it's very obvious that her entire story has only one major underlying theme and purpose and that is to make herself look good.

This last point alone should also make us wonder about the credibility of all the details of her story.

Tropper is much worse than a Rapist and there are no words to describe what a low life he was, together with all his enablers who took his money to enable him but she and Troppers wife are also not exactly such innocent saints here.

Is it inconceivable, that she smelled Troppers money and knew that she could get a few million in an eventual settlement from Tropper if she played her cards right with the recordings?

If she was so bright and sophisticated to have orchestrated such an elaborate plan of multiple recordings over long stretch of time and all the planing and acting that went in to it, she is certainly bright enough to have realized that she can hit lottery jackpot if she can get these tapes of Tropper on record to force Tropper to pay a few million in damages.

The strangest part is that this is supposedly a conversation between her and Shmarya but Shmarya is oddly not reporting having asked her any questions nor her answers to his questions.

It wouldn't be strange if you were well read or well educated. It also wouldn't be strange if your reading comprehension skills were at or near your age level.

As for what she thought she could get from Tropper by 'blackmailing' him, so far there is zero evidence of any such thing.

The tapes were indisputably sent to the rabbis she mentions, and Tropper – based on recordings you clearly have not heard – was unaware of the tapes until after that.

No go slink bak and shine the seat of your pants a bit. It suits you.

Dear "Someone" (9:52)
You have it wrong. The ex-husband has no relationship with the girl. She is Rachel's daughter from a previous marriage. She will NEVER have to see him again.

The visitation is only with the son. There was not an allegation concerning him directly. That's why the Court foolishly allowed this.

I must say I'm ashamed for about 90% of the posters. The woman has been abused by the people in her life she trusted most - including her Rabbi. That she did extreme things to protect her children is exactly what I'd expect a mother to do. And (I'm a lawyer) her description of the civil and criminal law aspects of this matter ring true. We are Jews who are suppose to have a strong moral code and a heart - I don't see that being exhibited.

the video tape shows shannon, tropper and troppers wife having sex.

Really! Could you post a link to the video?

It doesn't show that.

Shmarya, anyone questioning the credibility of anything you say understandably gets you very uncontrollably mad but you really need some Temper management classes to control your temper instead of addressing valid questions raised by many different commenter's here.

There have many many valid questions raised by many different comments about this story and Shmarya has not answered them except by shouting some insults which only reflects how insulted he feels that his credibility is questioned.

Here is a recap of all the questions raised so far by many different people:

1) You ignored valid questioners commenter by the name of "hanavon" who questioned:

"she previously said that tropper was making her have sex with other men as well, what changed?" You ignored this issue.

2) You ignored the next valid question by "Miriam"

3) You ignored questions raised by "Alex"

4) You ignored some very major and very valid concerns raised by "Jake"

5) You ignored some very valid questions raised by "Yisroel Pensack"

All of these valid questions were being asked by different independent people and you have ignored them except to shout with a childish temper tantrum of insults, at anyone who questions you.

story keeps changing every day...hmmm

ALEX: "I understand what her husband did to her kids but on the other hand she justifies her actions by saying that Tropper was financing her trial but to me the ends do not justify the means."
I think that your comments are way too harsh considering what she has been through. It's no way that she could spell out every little detail on this blog. It is obvious that Tropper took complete advantage of a desperate mother who would do anything to protect her son from being potentially abused by his father. Shannon did not have a year or more to come up with 20K for the trial; rather, she had less than a month to come up with 20K to pay for legal fees. The whole purpose of the trial was so she could keep her ex-husband from having visitation rights with their son. Her ex-husband had already sexually abused her daughter with the son present; therefore, it is logical for Shannon to believe that he would also abuse his son.

Scotty!

jack is right!
everything is very cloudy
And shows that this lady needs some treatment,(who in the world would say all these stories for everyone to know?)
another question
if she is an othodox jew, how is telling YOU,(SCOTTY) all these "chiddushim". knowing tat you are anti-orthodox" and that you are going to "accomodate her words" And made them public to ridiculize her

I believe many of the posters have never been in the position of vulnerability that Shannon has been in. Obviously Tropper took terrible advantage of her hence the tapes and video of which nobody is denying their authenticity.
Does anyone think that when Shannon went to Tropper for conversion and then for help with her court case he first said to her I will only convert you if you have sex with me and my wife? He would have been very nice and supportive to her and when she needed support for her case he would have thought nows my chance, ingratiated himself to her (would he financially have helped any old potential convert financially?) and slyly and slowly put pressure on her and she gave in step by step till she was in very deep with Tropper and his demands.
She is the victim Tropper is the perp and if she has trouble talking about private sexual details of which she is ashamed of or damaged by it is the result of her pain and naivety.
We shouldn't judge her on details of her story which she must have pain in retelling to the world publically.

Harold,
Why do you want to watch a Video of Tropper having sex. (I couldn't resist asking)

Obviously, most of the comments here are from men - men who apparently are so disconnected from their children (if they have any) that they are having a hard time wrapping their head around the idea that ANY mother faced with the choice of defacto prostitution vs allowing her CHILD to spend the night with a pervert WILL INVARIABLY pick the defacto prostitution. What kind of heartless icicle would NOT choose to have herself humiliated and put in danger INSTEAD of her child? You men are either jerks or idiots, I don't know which, and you certainly have no business having kids if you aren't going to PROTECT them at ANY cost. I guess you'd just laugh at your child if they were molested, or tell them to shut up and not tell anyone so your family wouldn't be besmirched? Do the world a favor and don't procreate, you jerks. Nobody needs a father like you guys.

From reading about Orand both here and on Tablet, it seems to me she's a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

At first a Christian with a messianic Jewish (sort of) mother, Orand later joined Jews for Jesus, found them wanting, then decided to go the whole nine yards and become an Orthodox Jew. Looks like Jesus didn't fulfill her needs, so she rejected Christianity and looked elsewhere.

My suspicion is that she needed Tropper to pay her legal bills, and when he didn't come through with everything, she turned to Aguiar (or Aguiar found her) and Aguiar paid her off on condition she bring Tropper down. Not that it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

I hope Orand finally has found what she's searching for, but I doubt that's the case.

Ahavah, that about sums it up.

Harold,
Why do you want to watch a Video of Tropper having sex. (I couldn't resist asking)

For real, inasmuch as the חלכה forbids one from watching animals mate.

Mr. A 5:41, you summed up my assessment of the matter just about perfectly.

Ahava,

At any cost?

What if Tropper handed Shannon a gun and asked her to kill Tropper's wife in exchange for money to help Shannon win the trial, would you justify that too out of motherly love for your child?

It's obvious from the story that Shannon is a super genius, very high IQ, very bright lady from her sophisticated game playing and acting and handling of this case.

Shannon could have gotten all the money she wants for the trial and plenty to spare without her engaging in any type of phone sex at all, with Tropper and without her having any other type of sex with Tropper.

All Shannon had to do was to record Tropper's very first request for sexual favors and then give that to her lawyer who could use that in an out of court sexual harassment settlement with Troopers attorneys and she would get not only her $20,00 but a few extra million to spare.

Tropper would gladly pay up quietly for her entire trial plus a million times more just to save his ass from all his current shame and downfall.

It's not called Blackmail on Shannon's part, as long as it's handled properly and legally through her lawyer, where Tropper is requested to pay it not as hush money but rather have him pay for the damages of his harassment.

Remember that the key here is that Shannon was not a timid little child and was not stupid and was actively engaged in several legal battles and SHE KNEW HOW TO FIGHT and in constant touch with her proffesional lawyers, so she knew what to do and whom to ask.

If Shannon was smart enough to have planned such a sophisticated spider web to bring down the most powerful man, such a big Rabbi whom other Rabbi's worshiped, using so many multiple sophisticated clandestine recordings, she was plenty smart enough to know good and well, how many millions of dollars such recordings are worth and even a child knows you can get a hell lot more for those tapes than just $20,000, she needed for the trial.

Mr. Apikorus (5:41): Good points but especially "a few fries short of a happy meal"...hysterical!! How about?
1. A taco short of a combination platter or better yet...
2. A pedophile short of a choir practice or for the Jews a Bar Mitvah lesson

Libby, here are some more:
3. A few sandwiches short of a picnic
4. All the lights are on, but nobody's at home.
5. Not dealing from a full deck.
6. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Oh, and a couple more:
7. The elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.
8. A few chassidim short of a fabrengen.

Can someone please bring this whole story to a logical ending?

Were all these millionaires giving Tropper money for ideological reasons, or was he laundering money for them?

Wow, she should do herself a favor and stop talking publicly about it.

These interviews with Shannon are not helping Shannon but are helping Tropper.

I both think and know that Tropper and EJF are scum but Shmarya, what you are doing by concentrating on the titillating aspects of this case is making Shannon look like a screwball - a very troubled, abused and exploited one, I admit - but still a screwball. Worse still, by talking to you, she is making her recent conversion - done for the right reasons by Lior and co. - to look ridiculous.

When you couple this with Guma's recent troubles, Tropper and EJF are put in a much more positive light and that is tragic for everybody.

Since you have direct contact with the poor confused woman, please tell her to stop giving interviews and to stop allowing herself to be continually exploited like this.

And please make it clear to everyone that you were given the tapes way way after loads of rabbis had already heard them and publicly condemned Tropper and split from the EJF.

I ask you this because people on your blog are getting a very dangerous impression that the whole story is one cooked up and instrumentalised by Guma, Shannon and you.

I don't for a second claim that that is the case, but that is essentially what it looks like to many people who can't wait to exonerate Tropper and allow the EJF to continue to pollute judaism.

Jack –

1) You ignored valid questioners commenter by the name of "hanavon" who questioned:

"she previously said that tropper was making her have sex with other men as well, what changed?" You ignored this issue.

I did not ignore it. Perhaps my answer wasn't clear enough for you.

She NEVER said she had sex with anyone. She only said Tropper tried to force her to have that sex.

2) You ignored the next valid question by "Miriam"

3) You ignored questions raised by "Alex"

4) You ignored some very major and very valid concerns raised by "Jake"

5) You ignored some very valid questions raised by "Yisroel Pensack"

All of these valid questions were being asked by different independent people and you have ignored them except to shout with a childish temper tantrum of insults, at anyone who questions you.

One of the problems here is that people – like you – jump to conclusions and then expect others to view those conclusions as fact.

I answered all of the questions you cite, except one: "Which rabbi leaked the tapes?"

That question ASSUMES a rabbi leaked the tapes and that I know the rabbi's name but am somehow covering it up– but there is nothing in what I wrote that says that or even intimates that.

Could a secretary have leaked the tapes? A courier? An employee? An expert brought in to assess the tapes? A computer technician?

Sure. And so could a rabbi.

Is that c;lear enough for you? Or do I need to repeat it again?

Now I'll repeat what I wrote above in answer to your assertion that Shannon did what she did to blackmail Tropper:As for what she thought she could get from Tropper by 'blackmailing' him, so far there is zero evidence of any such thing.

The tapes were indisputably sent to the rabbis she mentions, and Tropper – based on recordings you clearly have not heard – was unaware of the tapes until after that.Process that.

"Since you have direct contact with the poor confused woman, please tell her to stop giving interviews and to stop allowing herself to be continually exploited like this. "

I do not agree with you. Up to know, everybody spoke ABOUT her. I think it is only fair that she should give her version of facts.

I understand what her husband did to her kids but on the other hand she justifies her actions by saying that Tropper was financing her trial but to me the ends do not justify the means.

In the long run 20K dollars is not 1 million dollars and she should have acquired that money without selling her soul to the devil.

So the ex-husband is molesting her kids, she needs twenty grand to stop him, has nowhere else to turn - and she should have just walked away from the one person who was willing to give it to her?

Gee, Alex, I guess she didn't pray hard enough to HaShem, right?

Idiot.

He exploited her for sexual favors, and she, him, for money.

I'm waiting for the television miniseries....

"I do not agree with you. Up to know, everybody spoke ABOUT her. I think it is only fair that she should give her version of facts."

Not smart of her. First of all, that Leba is also a victim sounds like pure bullshit. They only pretended to be together while he was out of the room? True, we'll never know. But it sounds like she made it up yesterday.

Secondly, much as we love Shmarya, it is not smart of her, who converted to Orthodox Judaism last week, to be talking to him. Impressions count for a lot in Orthodoxy, and the impression she is creating is one which leaves openings for people to see her in a negative light and as a truth stretcher, at best. Hopefull someone will give her good advice to lay low. As it is, the facts and impressions spoke well of her. She didn't have to tell anyone that she's been victimized for people to have that impression. She should resist the temptation to talk, when her every word is going to be scrutinized, analyzed and compared.

"At first a Christian with a messianic Jewish (sort of) mother, Orand later joined Jews for Jesus, found them wanting, then decided to go the whole nine yards and become an Orthodox Jew."

Well, in genera life is not easy for those messianic jewish girls. They are often big fans of Israel, some consider themselves jewish although they are not, most would like to marry a jewish boy.

Some do even keep kosher and shabbat and everything and would like to marry an orthodox jew although they themselves are messianic.

Bottom line: either they find one of their own (which are few and far between) or the do not find anybody or they get exploited by "shomrei 612" or secular jews, who love to fool around with them, but as soon as the word "marriage" falls, they realise all of a sudden that she is not jewish...

I saw two cases like this around me, and I think it is no exception.

This woman took 20 grand for allowing No Pants Tropper to talk dirty to her. (If she was so pure and innocent, she could have hung up the phone right then and there.)

You know what that makes her? And what that makes No Pants Tropper?

Then, she's taping the conversation, and somehow, Guma Aguiar, the biggest sleazebag in this whole stinking affair, gets a hold of it. Now just how did that happen?

For the real skinny on this, read today's Tablet article.

She has two kids? Were they converted with her?

I have heard from someone who knows, that it was Shmarya who had obtained these tapes directly from Shannon and it is Shmarya who leaked it.

According to Tablet, it was Guma Aguiar who somehow got hold of these tapes before Shmarya did.

Of course, Shannon did the taping originally. Who did the copying and how Aguiar got them I don't know.

Do you all remember how the tapes were posted on the Tropper Wikipedia page and how they were deleted, put back, and deleted again (several times)?

I dated Shannon's father for the past three years. This family is NUTS! Shannon was married more than once. Her father used to talk about what she did sexually. Her father, Neil Hines, was talking marriage to three of us at once - and we each didn't know about the others. Shannon also had an affair with Tovia Singer whom she could not marry - that's when she went to the next highest bidder. Her father also tried to get money and gifts from me and the other women he dated just like Shannon took money from anyone she could. Shannon willingly accepted as much money as she could get - from the rabbis and from her father who was removed from the Harris County Sheriff's office Detective bureau last year after I filed charges on him.

Shannon is a drama freak. When her father, Neil Hines, and I spent the day at the beach and she couldn't reach him for 12 hours - half a day - she had the police break his door down by convincing them that he had committed suicide. This whole family is like that! Shannon sent me an email bragging about how she lies for her father so he can sleep with multiple women while each woman thinks she is exclusive with him. Shame on them both.

Makes me wonder about whether her ex is really a child molester, and only copped to a plea because Orand's father is a cop, and he'd have a tough time in court because of it.

Note that the family court judge didn't take away his visitation rights.

I have had the same thoughts that some of this is made up. Her father set out on a vendetta against me after he lost his appeal to rejoin the detective unit and both she and her father wrote that they would say or do anything to get what they wanted. Neil Hines is banned from my workplace due to his erratic behavior and unfounded claims against me. Shannon often left the children with "friends" when she went to New York for "visits". As a mother, I would never have left my daughter when she was coping with such a violation. Shannon's father, Neil Hines, has manipulated several women with whom I have been in contact with and we all shared the same experience of him trying to coerce and dominate us. He came into my life claiming he was a "Noahide" and preying on my "Jewishness" - constantly citing various negative stereotypes in order to make me feel badly about my heritage.

It does say three children! I have only ever seen two. The name "Picquet" was her father's, Neil Hines', birth name. He changed it to Hines - wonder why. And where is the third child? The more that comes out, the more I am grateful that I found out about Neil before I married him.

Diane, are you Jewish?

Makes me wonder about whether her ex is really a child molester, and only copped to a plea because Orand's father is a cop, and he'd have a tough time in court because of it.

Note that the family court judge didn't take away his visitation rights.

10 years probation and a lifetime on the sex offender registry is NOT a plea deal an innocent man takes.

If you would read what Shannon says – and by read I mean read slowly enough and often enough so it penetrates what you try to pass off as your brain – you'd see the custody issue involved their son, not the daughter who was abused.

Then, if you'd do some checking, you'd see family court judges often make decisions like this.

But asking you to be honest or to process information has been proved futile so many times before, I can't imagine you'll do any better now.

Yes, Nigritude Ultramarine, I am Jewish. I am not Orthodox but have friends who are and have a great respect for their dedication to their values. It seems that Shmarya feels that attacking the people on here is the way to muddy the water by hurling insults at Mr. Apikorus. I have known Shannon and her father, Neil Hines, for three years. What purportedly happened to her daughter is horrible but, during the trial period, Shannon would go off on vacations to New York and Florida (according to her father), leaving her children. This is when her daughter needed the strength of her mother. Shannon's father definitely put pressure on the courts since he was still a detective. As a forced retiree now after my charges against him were upheld following his appeal, he has tried to charge me with felony theft (for giving away food that he left here) and came to my workplace demanding they fire me. He continues to threaten me with lawsuits and veiled threats about his gun and the fact that he has nothing to lose. The family is very unstable. I am a decent retired high school teacher, active and respected in the community, with a second career to support myself and have never encountered people like this who will victimize people who have good hearts. They have not only done this to me but to many others with whom I am now connected.

Diane, thanks for the candid response.

It sounds like you and your cohorts have enough people to form your own support group devoted to dealings with this one family. No doubt you are getting together and comparing notes.

Anyway, I thank you for contributing to the discussion here.

You are welcome. I was the only woman in the group that I discovered that Neil victimized who was willing to face him and bring charges against him. Although it has taken its toll, I hope it saves some others.

Since I found out that Neil was married at least four times and seriously involved/taking advantage of women at least five times, I think we qualify for the group discount for a DisneyWorld trip.

One interesting fact - Neil basically used his position as detective as a "dating" source. He would investigate a crime, learn about the woman's financial status....and move in!

There is way too much drama with Shannon and Neil and most of it they create themselves. They both are very very good at role playing.
Shalom.

A Mandel, please communicate with me at my email address about this - this is not for public forum. You must understand that, after all the things that Shannon's father has tried to do to me, I cannot leave myself open to answer on a public blog. It has actually become dangerous for me several times. I will answer honestly with what I know. dsande7786@aol.com

Shmarya, could you remove or redact Diane's last post. Her e-mail address leads to a lot of biographical information quite easily.

Shmarya, could you remove or redact Diane's last post. Her e-mail address leads to a lot of biographical information quite easily.

Let me get this straight.

The woman makes a series of accusations against a parent of Shannon. You don't object, even though the parent is not part of this case and even though one of those accusations laughable on its face: that he got Diane charged with a felony for stealing some food from him.

Then Diane leaves her email so others can contact her, and you want me to remove that email to protect her privacy?

I think you need to ask yourself why unsubstantiated character assassination from Diane is okay with you.

BTW, the "third child" is Brady Orand's much older son from a previous marriage.

Shannon has been separated/divorced from Brady for many years now. Even so, if Diane really knew Shannon well, she would have known about Brady's son. But by her own admission, she doesn't know.

Then Diane leaves her email so others can contact her, and you want me to remove that email to protect her privacy?

I think you need to ask yourself why unsubstantiated character assassination from Diane is okay with you.

Well, I figured that Neil is bound to know who Diane is anyway and that she is active over here due to Shannon's recent appearances here. I guess I was just assuming that she wasn't bargaining for a bunch of strangers jamming her inbox.

As for the "unsubstantiated character assassination" -- I don't know what to make of it. I do know my head is about to explode into a fine pink mist.

Anyway, you make a good point. Point well taken.

My laugh for the morning! I was NOT charged with a felony. They thought it was absurd. Shannon was involved in helping her father try to scam me. My email box has not been "jammed" because most people are reasonable human beings. I put my email on here to answer questions that needed to be answered outside this forum.

As for the biographical information - I am who I say I am. I have never done anything that would humiliate me. Neil and Shannon cannot make the same claim.

And, yes, A. Mandel, Shannon's life is a soap opera and she writes much of it herself. Consider when she kicked in her dad's door because he was with me....

I post what I know to be true, not the fiction created by Shannon and Neil. Shining light into dark corners...(sometimes I just have to let that retired English teacher wax poetic...lol).

Enjoy this lovely day.

Shmarya, anyone who disagrees with you and your exalted wisdom is a fool. NOT.

Shmarya, anyone who disagrees with you and your exalted wisdom is a fool. NOT.

Not everyone, certainly, But you? Pretty much always. You pontificate on subjects you know nothing about. And then you fail to learn anything from the responses of others who do know.

In halakhic terms, there are two kinds of unintelligence: 1) What we would call developmentally disabled, and, 2) someone who fails to learn due to arrogance, hubris and sheer assholery. You're a textbook number 2.

First, let me say tropper is about as low as one gets before being reincarnated to a snake. He has done what no other Jew before him in my eyes and that is make me ashamed of being Jewish.I am amazed at the lack of human understanding here. Doesn't anyone smell a rat in Shannn's story? Does anyone here have a hinky meter and it is sounding a deafening ring right about now?
SHE found CHILD PORN in her husband's possession B E F O R E the mlestation and dismissed it! She goes partying in a bar to surprse him, claiming to be such a reliious christian. Please! Read her story again and see all the holes. It looks like swiss cheese! And what about the "last five minutes" with tropper's wife and him in the room? She admits to being undressed with Leiba but fast forwards to another topic. I guess she couldn't come up with a story to end that scene. WAKE UP! This woman is a vixon and toxic to the Jewish world. There are just too many discrepencies in her 'story' to note here.
As to legal issues, Shannon has said there are other wmen who participated in the same sex for conversion games. She had better be willing to start naming names since she has put a question mark on all the women who went through EJF. It is time to stop hiding behind rabbis, crying 'victim' and be a real woman shannon. You have hurt many people with your games.

Shelly, you are absolutely correct. Both Shannon and her father have stories for any situation. When I would ask about a descrepancy in either of their stories, they would change the subject, call me paranoid, and not talk to me for days. Shannon, in her own email, stated that she helps her father sleep with multiple women and is proud! I sent the email to her father, Neil - if anyone wants it, ask him for it. He wanted a Rolex from me to "prove" my love. This is how they live - yes, they are victims at times but it is because they are not living an honest life. I was sickened when I saw that Shannon's conversion went through. Her father was opposing it at the end and telling me how stupid she was for converting. But in the next breath, he would tell me how they were getting money from the rabbis.

And if anyone wants Neil, he was talking marriage to three of us at once....I guess that saves him time. Shannon said we deserved it for believing her father....nice character recommendation from a daughter.

I agree. She is toxic to the community.

Here is yet another 'story' from Shannon's delusional world. I am not sure if I can post a website so if this is not allowed please delete it. I just think everyone needs to know more about the kind of woman they are making out to be a hero.

..."After this ecstatic missive about the rejection of Christianity, she announces she was being tutored in her new faith by a group called Outreach Judaism, a group that tries to counter the work of Christian missionaries, and that she had decided to become an Orthodox Jew: “Initially, I looked into conversion, but through looking into my family discovered that I am already Jewish! I’ve written enough, so I’ll explain this part later.”

She says she was already Jewish?? WHY is no one in the Jewish world not challenging this woman's conversion or her sanity?
http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/23581/converted/

She says she was already Jewish?? WHY is no one in the Jewish world not challenging this woman's conversion or her sanity?

I'm sure people are. Leib Tropper would be one of those.

But your real question isn't a question at all. If you knew anything about conversion to Orthodox Judaism, it wouldn't be a question you would ask.

Shelly, if they question her conversion or her sanity then they have to question their decision to allow her conversion....and maybe realize it was a mistake.

When Shannon says she looked into her family, does she mean her mom who is conservative Christian, or her dad who was a splinter group minister/reverend/whatever with a small group up in Conroe for many many years? Her father told me that they had no Jewish ancestry when we were discussing mine...so what's with the family thing?

I'm confused....once again....but not afraid to admit it. There is never any consistency with Shannon and Neil's stories.

Excuse my ignorance, but exactly what would be the question? She is all over the internet with a 'story' that changes each time it is printed "in her own words". She makes the statement whe was already Jewish and drops the subject as quickly as the topic of her, Leiba and Tropper in a room but remaining a pure as snow and yet it is not acceptable to ask why no one is holding her accountable for her words?

I may not know the politics of orthodoxy, but I know Judaism requires one to be accountable and respnsible for oneswords and actions. I also know we are to protect our fellow Jew from such as we have witnessed from EJF and Shannon

Lots of people have Jewish ancestry but grew up Christian.

I know people whose great-great maternal grandmother was Jewish – which makes them Jewish, even though no one in the family identified as such since the late 1880s.

Perhaps what Shannon means is she has such an ancestor.

In most cases like this, a conversion is done to remove doubt.

No, Neil Hines, her father told me many times that they had NO Jewish ancestry. What Shannon "meant" and what Shannon "said" are up for speculation. I also would like to know what she meant by that statement since her father documents that they have no Jewish ancestors.

True, Tropper is a snake. My question is, how many other women did he offer to pay who said 'no'? Shannon had the will to say no and chose the money. Yes, she was a victim in the past, but this time she chose to be a victim because she could not see past the money that she was offered.

We are each held accountable for our actions.

No, Neil Hines, her father told me many times that they had NO Jewish ancestry. What Shannon "meant" and what Shannon "said" are up for speculation. I also would like to know what she meant by that statement since her father documents that they have no Jewish ancestors.

The operative word her is maternal.

It is time for rest. I wish you all peace for this evening and night.

There are many good people in the world and our actions will lead them to us.

That which we manifest is before us....lol, okay that's a quote from a popular novel...but it's still true!

Good night and peace.

Well now you are talking about a topic I do understand! If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that a conversion is the usual practice. These cases are taken on an individual basis. Since Shannon has tow children, she would not automatically be given a conversion to remove doubt, as the children would be left as -non-Jews and would have t also convert even IF (what a stretch) Shannon was Jewish by birth. Nopey-nopey no...These candidates who cannot prove their heritage are given preference and experts in genealoggy work hard at investigating the family history so the children are not left out and in question. There has been no hint of such an investiation or remote possibility of such a circumstnace. Again, she made a statement that affects her children and is not trying to prove it for their sake and no one is hlding her feet to the fire to explain. Sorry, I am not giving her a pass.

Shalom Diane. Tomorrow is another day and another opprtunity to bring light to the darkness of this world. Make a grrrrrrreat day!

Well now you are talking about a topic I do understand! If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that a conversion is the usual practice. These cases are taken on an individual basis. Since Shannon has tow children, she would not automatically be given a conversion to remove doubt, as the children would be left as -non-Jews and would have t also convert even IF (what a stretch) Shannon was Jewish by birth. Nopey-nopey no...These candidates who cannot prove their heritage are given preference and experts in genealoggy work hard at investigating the family history so the children are not left out and in question. There has been no hint of such an investiation or remote possibility of such a circumstnace. Again, she made a statement that affects her children and is not trying to prove it for their sake and no one is hlding her feet to the fire to explain. Sorry, I am not giving her a pass.

No, Shelly. You clearly do not understand.

I may not know the politics of orthodoxy, but I know Judaism requires one to be accountable and respnsible for oneswords and actions.

Yes, that's true. But in the case of a convert, she is considered to be a newborn child (Yevamot 22a). A new entity, separate from what she was before. A transformation so radical that all prior relationships with people and objects are annulled. For example, siblings who convert can marry each other -- the rabbis these days forbid this however.

Once the conversion ritual has been performed, prior motivation or conduct has no bearing on the new Jew's status. Incidentally, as a new entity, much like a chosson/kallah on their wedding day, past aveiros committed are forgiven on the day of the conversion.

Yes Shmarya. Been there and done that. I most certainly do understand. Got to go get some sleep. Work awaits me tomorrow. BTW, I made a correcion in my email. Sorry for the typo.

Yes Nigritude I understand that

..."Yes, that's true. But in the case of a convert, she is considered to be a newborn child (Yevamot 22a)...."

However, a lepard can't change its spots. And as hard as we try to keep the fox out of the hen house, it sometimes slips under the fense. I am one of many who are standing watch over this particular fox. There has been too much damage to our community already.

However, a lepard can't change its spots

Maybe so, but in this case it doesn't matter. Her slate has been wiped clean. A pretty good deal actually.

I am one of many who are standing watch over this particular fox.

I don't know how this squares with the prohibition against reminding a convert of his or her past status.

There has been too much damage to our community already.

I think you should take that up with Tropper and his ilk.


..."I don't know how this squares with the prohibition against reminding a convert of his or her past status..."

Not her past Nigritude. She will continue in the same vein...business as usual.

Not her past Nigritude. She will continue in the same vein...business as usual.

How then does this square with the exhortation in Pirke Avos to to give someone the benefit of the doubt inasmuch as a convert is someone without sin? Someone without a past?

The Torah considers a convert to be an orphan. It is a Torah prohibition to oppress an orphan. In addition, the Torah has an extra prohibition for the convert: (Shemos 22:20) "You shall not do injustice or oppress a convert …"

What is the point of bringing up all of this stuff now? Are you trying to embarrass her? I hope not. Judaism in certain circumstances equates the deliberate embarrassment of a Jew as a very serious sin; something for which one could lose his portion in the World to Come.

I'm sorry if you have had some complaints against this person, but it's too late now. This person is now entitled to the same consideration as a Jew as you.

I did not make my point clear. I am not talking about her past. I am talking abut what she will cntinue to do, especially not that she thinks she is absolutely untouchable and can get away with anything. She will trip but it will be because she is walking the same path she did a month ago. That is evident by the fanacy stories she is telling - right now- today and they are all different. It is a matter of time before she shows (or others see) who she truly is. Again she is no different than the rabbis who get caught every day and she should not be treated differently when she trips - and she will. Bet on it.

Do not worry, Shelly. She is now doing to someone what she did before. It will all work out.

As wonderful as having the slate wiped clean is for converts, who will wipe the slate clean for the victims? Interesting concept there, I always thought. It only works when you are changing for the right reasons.

Shannon is already writing on her slate according to emails I received last night. And, no, because of a legal battle that she now has created outside of this blog (again), I will not share the information at this time. Ask Shannon what she did.

Rest easy, Shelly. You are right. Some people do not change no matter how many chances they are given.

Shannon and her father cannot maintain the facade of normalcy for extended periods. This will take care of itself.

And, do not waste energy that is better spent elsewhere. Shannon wants the publicity and drama. But she has forgotten....she does not have to answer to us. But, one day, she will have to answer.

"I did not make my point clear. I am not talking about her past. I am talking abut what she will cntinue to do,"

Yes, you are talking about her past. You are talking about what she will continue to do based on past events. That's what the word 'continue' means. To maintain a state without an interruption. You're not willing, in accordance with Jewish values, to drop her past at all.

As wonderful as having the slate wiped clean is for converts, who will wipe the slate clean for the victims?

The People's Court?

Hi Diane. No surprise to me. Just waiting.

As wonderful as having the slate wiped clean is for converts, who will wipe the slate clean for the victims?

The People's Court?

Nigritude, was this meant to be funny? How do your acts of loving kindness and benefit of the doubt work? Do you extend yourself only to the young fem fatals or can you posibly bring yourself to defend the old men and women and even young children who were caught in the fallout of this latest rabbinical self-serving chain of events?

Shannon has implied there are more women involved yet no one comes forward with a complaint. So is she sayin "I am a victim because others are...?"

What she did with that statement was put a dark question mark on all comming out of EJF. There are rabbis who do not want to help anyone who was a candidate for conversin there because mz Sannon has now tainted everyone and will not help to clear or implicate others.

As to your previous question regarding embarrassment...she cannot be embarrased and that is evident by her fantacy drama on private issues that she is making public. Maybe she should reconcile with tropper and beg him for the use of his public relations czar. She doesn't know when to close the curtain on her own production.

Yes, I know it's maternal ancestry (duh) and was told there was no Jewish ancestry on either side.

She had a chance at a clean slate but Shannon is behaving right now as she has in the past. But now we are aware of it.

It is only a matter of time. I would like nothing better than to see Shannon find peace but she has already become embroiled in her next drama and courtroom scenes. Sad.

Thanks for the laugh, Nigritude Ultramarine! But now I'm going to have the People's Court theme song playing in my head all day!!! Aaaahhhh!

Hmmm. My comments appear to not be posted. Wonder why....

Hmmm. My comments appear to not be posted. Wonder why....


You seem to have plenty of comments posted…maybe you need to refresh your browser.

Ah, censorship is alive and well.

Ah, censorship is alive and well.

Really?

Perhaps a form of mental illness, but not censorship. Note your comments and the time stamps. Then apologize.

Yes, I know it's maternal ancestry (duh) and was told there was no Jewish ancestry on either side.

She had a chance at a clean slate but Shannon is behaving right now as she has in the past. But now we are aware of it.

It is only a matter of time. I would like nothing better than to see Shannon find peace but she has already become embroiled in her next drama and courtroom scenes. Sad.

Posted by: Diane | January 18, 2010 at 11:30 AM


Thanks for the laugh, Nigritude Ultramarine! But now I'm going to have the People's Court theme song playing in my head all day!!! Aaaahhhh!

Posted by: Diane | January 18, 2010 at 11:32 AM


Hmmm. My comments appear to not be posted. Wonder why....

Posted by: Diane | January 18, 2010 at 11:38 AM


Hmmm. My comments appear to not be posted. Wonder why....

You seem to have plenty of comments posted…maybe you need to refresh your browser.

Posted by: Shmarya | January 18, 2010 at 11:40 AM


Ah, censorship is alive and well.

Posted by: Diane | January 18, 2010 at 11:48 AM

Nigritude, was this meant to be funny?

Yes, in part. Anyway, I just don't understand what real damage Shannon has done to anyone here. Unless she did something really heinous like committed a murder or clogged your toilet and didn't tell anyone.

Shannon has implied there are more women involved yet no one comes forward with a complaint.

I'm not surprised that there aren't other victims coming forward. Look at all of the attention -- and not the good kind -- Shannon is getting just on this blog alone not to mention in other media outlets.

can you posibly bring yourself to defend the old men and women

Name one old man and one old woman caught up in these chain of events. I don't know what you consider old, but let's say, 70+.

What she did with that statement was put a dark question mark on all comming out of EJF.

I disagree. I would blame EJF if any convert coming out of that corrupt place had any sort of blemish.

The reason Shannn is etting media attention is tha she desires it - she demands it with her interviews "in her own words". She just can't shut up. Sh is a media uh...hound. Sincere candidates for conversion would not want to be associated in any way with what she had done and certainly would not seek the kind of publicity she is getting. I guess there isno shortage of men who are willing to defend her.

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