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December 13, 2009

Lakewood Rosh Yeshiva Compares Modern Orthodox To Esav

Black Hat Fedora Duty of haredim to fight MO.

A reader emails:

Last Shabbos the Flatbush Jewish community was treated to a visit by Roshei Yeshivos from Beis Medrash Govoha of Lakewood.


While speaking at Shalosh Seudos at the Aguda on Avenue L (Agudath Israel Bais Binyomin), one of the Roshei Yeshiva offered a d’var torah exhorting the listeners to follow Yaakov’s example in fighting the angel representing Esau, and in like manner, beware of other evils that appear brotherly.  His list of heretics ended with “...Reform, Conservative and Modern Orthodox.”  There was a palpable embarrassment throughout the room at the notion that he would paint halachik, Sabbath-observing Orthodox Jews with this broad bush, but no apology issued from the Lakewood luminary.

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Lakewood calling MO evil in todays world - maybe Moshiach is coming (or here) when things are reversed

Maybe the chareidim are truly Esav.

They live up to the dictum Esav sonei (hates) Yaakov.

Which rabbinic luminary was this?

This rabbinic "luminary" needs to get laid.

It was R' Malkiel Kotler. If the measure of yaakov is a reflection of Lakewood I will gladly align myself with eisav.

Check out the schedule from matzav:

http://matzav.com/beth-medrash-govoha-brooklyn-shabbos

They always were against Moder Orthodox. They said it privately for many years. Malkiel Kotler said it semi-privately (as he used to do forever). The only difference is that someone mosered on the holy Malkiel son of Kotler. The moser must be punished to the full extent of Lakewood halachik interpretation of moserut.

This hardly surprises. In ideologies, the closer groups are are to each other, the greater the venom present in the inter-group invective.

For example, the Stalinists hated the Trotskyites even more than they hated the full-blown bourgeoisie. If you recall, the invective between Orthodox and Conservative is highly muted today, compared to the time when JTS (before women rabbis, etc) was pretty much a frum place, and much crossover existed between Ortho and Conservative, at both lay and clerical levels.

There was a Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk and the Enterprise were brought to intervene in a age-old internecine dispute between two races on a planet. The only difference apparent between the two races was that the members of one race had faces that were 1/2 black and 1/2 white, while the opposing race had faces that were 1/2 white and 1/2 black, in the reverse order. Their dispute was otherwise inexplicable. (How I miss those 1960s TV lessons in morality!).

On a more sanguine note, I argue that the hatred of MO by the Lakewoodites has more to do with the success of the MO in gaining good rabbinical pulpits... in other words, MONEY.

The Lakewoodites are far too "yeshivish" and farfrumpt to take on the typical large Orthodox synagogue which must cater to the broad spectrum of traditional observance rather than just to the Gedoylim-worshiping sect that Lakewood represents. Very often, such rabbis need to have MO credentials, typically boosted by a stint at Litvish-style institution just for gasse-cred.

AE: where would a community like Neir Yisroel of Baltimore fall on the spectrum between MO and Beis Midrash?

all this italics is making me dizzy

I'm guessing that "a palpable embarrassment throughout the room" is not the same as the room saying in unison, "finish eating, rabbis, it's time to start walking home now." Wimps.

'Posted by harold' is even less valid.

Mike Kotler is well-known to be an ignorant am-ha'aretz who simply lives (very regally) off of grandpa's last name. His only ability is in shady financial schemes and cheating the donors to Lakewood.

If he'd take a moment of self-realization, he'd realize what an ass and fool he is and crawl back under the moldy rock that he belongs under. With his level of intellect, an appropriate profession would be as a New York City car-service driver.

I recall seeing an academic piece somewhere about the politics of rabbis coming to regularly give Shabbat/Yom Tov Drashot, something about it being IN PART a way to respond to modern developments and solidify authority by undermining dissent; they could plan, research and organize whatever complex statements they like and give them over Shabbat, with less chance of anyone countering or arguing with them except off the cuff, as no one could either dash off to the Beit Midrash or the rabbis private collection to check, nor record their statements in anyway. Their desired effect on the community could be had with less risk of being shared with outside authorities as anything but anecdotal; no one could prove CLEARLY what was said or meant (by comparing transcripts or playing a recording), apart from relying on statements by people who claimed to be there and claimed to hear it. so very controversial or authoritarian statements can be made with little actual recourse afterward, with the desired effect being challenged indirectly at best and post facto.

to A E ANDERSON,

you can always see any social issue in the original Star Trek.

I am a little surprised by Failed Messiah since he usually brings article with some prove

What threat do Conservative and Reform pose to Lakewood? My experience is that Conservative and Reform have become more irrelevant over that past 20 – 30 years.

My guess is that he feels the biggest threat is from MO. And it’s probably true. The level of learning at Lakewood is not as high as that at Yeshiva University. And since Lakewood discourages their students to become professionals, they are not as self supporting. So to quote George Bush, bring them on!

Since when does ”A reader emails” becomes a valid source for a story.

I do not wish to apologize for what the Rosh yeshiva said, but I presume he meant the Chovevei Torah people . And in that case he may have something to say about the radical redefinition of rabbinical duties and educationin that school .
I personally thnk Rabbi Weiss is meeting a need for many American Jews, but I can see where the rosh yeshiva is coming from.

"Since when does ”A reader emails” becomes a valid source for a story."

Well it's true, so tough. Though the cite is not exactly right.

I suppose the black hat world also
opposes the Rambam too. Besides the
black hats version of Judaism is based
on folk lore, statements of their so called
leaders,rather than Halchla.
The black hats are the true Reform and
Reconstructionist forms of Judaism.

Salomon is not a "luminary"; he is a dimwit!

But give him a break. He must be exhausted from "sweeping molesting under the carpet."

A smarter man would have know the phrase is "under a rug" and it takes less work to sweep things under a rug. Maybe he naively thought he could handle it like a carpet and tack down the edges.

He should consider respecting the modern orthodox who at least understand that for shmutz, you use a vacuum, not a broom.

On the other hand he may also be exhausted from preaching business ethics in Lakewood. Face it he has a janitors job combined with the job of a make-up artist. Give him a break.

Good. Maybe MO will finally challenge Charedim as the authority on Judaism.

Whenever I get a schnorring letter from Lakewood, I send them back a copy of the Slifkin ban with the names of Malkiel Kotler and Matityahu Salomon highlighted in yellow. They can live in their own private fantasy world if they want to, but they will not get a dime from me.

Kotler's grandfather R. Aharon was friends with R. JB Soloveitchik and respected him, despite his being the leader of Modern Orthodoxy. They disagreed vehemently, but at least they respected each other. Apparently Malkiel isn't half the man his grandfather was.

Lakewood isn't such a big deal anymore, its more of a place where people go for a while in order to up their shiduch value. Anyone know of any good seforim or kuntresim from there lately? The whole scene has devolved.

WHAT A SHANDEH!

The Lakwood Rosh Yeshiva is a disgarce to
himself and Yidden world wide.

Shame on all you fremeh menshen in attendance for not telling this Rosh Yeshiva lowlife and Apikores to Fuck Off.

B"H many goyim would have stood up against such hated directed against Jews while you guys said nothing or didn't walk out from his 'lecture' as many heads of state have done when they hear similar hatred against Israel in the UN.

You guys should be feel very sholtz of yourselves.

We don't have to worry about Goyim hating us and Anti Semitism as long as there are Yiddelach like him around who do a much better job.

No doubt his Neshumeh was in a in Nazi, Cappo or Crusader.

I forgive you Rebbeleh for your meshegas, just go check your sorry excuse for a life into your nearest mesugeh hospital.

May the Abishter forgive you and have rachmones on your pathetic excuse of a life.

Let us not forget Ahavas Yisroel and Tikkun Olam Uber Allles!


Fight For Your Right to Modernity (apologies: Beastie Boys)

Kick it!

You wake up late for shul, man you don't wanna go
You ask you rabbi, "Please?" but he still says, "Nu!"
You missed two Sabbaths although you didn't work
'cause your rebbe preaches mussar like you're some kind of jerk

chorus:
You gotta fight for your right to modernity!

You rabbi sees you're modern and he said, "No way!"
That hypocrite takes your money every day
Man, living at yeshiva is such a drag
Now your rabbi threw away the latest Slifkin rag. Busted!

(repeat chorus)

Don't step out of this house if it's not black clothes you're gonna wear
I'll kick you out of the yeshiva if you don't attend that shiur
The rabbi busted in and said, "What's that noise?"
Rebbe, you're just jealous it's some rock and roll goys!

(repeat chorus)

My Brother Esau [John Barlow Perry & Bob Weir]

Esau skates on mirrors anymore...
He meets his pale reflection at the door.
Yet sometimes at night I dream
He's still that hairy man,
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse
And wandering the land.
Shadowboxing the Apocalypse
And wandering the land.

Esau holds a blessing;
Brother Esau bears a curse.
I would say that the blame is mine
But I suspect it's something worse.
The more my brother looks like me,
The less I understand
The silent war that bloodied both our hands.
Sometimes at night, I think I understand. ...

i happen to know rAMK personally and anyone who knows him personally knows that he is a true tzadik who loves all jews all of you posting here are just talking out of your asses having no idea who the man is or mixing him up with his brother aaron. ramk is known to speak on a deep level and in yiddish which means a inerpetation of what hes saying but some dumb MO FB POS has no bearing on the truth whatsoever....he could of been refering to many different things in mayn different contexts or the whole story could be bs....

--Anyone know of any good seforim or kuntresim from there lately? The whole scene has devolved. --

This statement is from the most ignorant statements ever posted on this blog!

Bootsy, is it? Reference some. Artscroll type guides don't count.

Wasn't all this covered by Potok in The Chosen?

To call any Jew "Esav" is quite frankly MR- mentally retarded. Flatbush has a diverse Jewish community with Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc. There are no "levels of frumkeit" or more holy/ less holy; we're just Jews who want to live our lives.

shame on shmarya for posting uncomfirmed garbage. I personally was at the rosh yeshivas drasha. He said over a well known beis halevi that eisav is a bigger danger when he acts like out brother then when he is our enemy. He afterwards was discussing the actual concept of being spiritually harmed by people you are close to can be worse than being trampled on your known enemies. He then mentioned that we are at a full front war with so many of our brothers being unpurified by our highly tumeh world. he did not compare anyone or anything to easiv he was just expounding on a point the beis halevi madeon eisav he was saying a DRASHA he did not put MO in a list of reform or conservative he didnt specify any group he clearly was referring to other jews having bad influence on us (the yeshiva community) but for those who read this blog well know he could be referring to chassidm sefardim or other yeshiva people. Once again shame on shmarya for jumping the gun on this one. an apology is in order.

Bootsy, is it? Reference some. Artscroll type guides don't count.

Posted by: alternative childcare | December 14, 2009 at 10:09 PM

There's an entire publishing house in Lakewood called "M'chon Mishnas R' Aaron" for one that publishes countless sforim written by members of the M'chon. There are boxes upon boxes of newly published sforim printed by publishers other than artscroll on sale wherever real quality sforim are sold. and thus that statement of mr. thorton rings true...

Paul Freedman -

Click here

Chaptzem,
Did the putz Kotler "say over" this other drasha that says if you're a husband who abandons his wife in Israel in order to become a rosh yeshiva in New Jersey, then Torah considers you a rasha who is unworthy of redemption?? No apologies to the male-whore Kotler are necessary since he has removed himself from the Jewish people by his behavior towards his abandoned wife.

Response to Chaptzem.

I was there. I heard it. It's not made up.

What he said specifically was an enumeration of a number of the "yeitzer Horas" that have plagued klal yisroel historically. He then listed, and this is a quote "Tzeduki, Baisusi, Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox..."

It should be noted that it was not , as some have suggested , a measured attack specifically aimed at MO. It was more of a poor (albeit, unacceptably poor and irresponsible) choice of wrods which had the effect of lumping together thousands of shomrei torah umitzvos with outright apikorsim.

But it did happen, and having seen the reaction on the face of Rabbi Lieff (Rav of teh Agudah) when it was said, he wasn't very happy about it either.

rob you clearly know nothing about the facts it is widely known his first wife is clinically insane. Rav Shach personally got together the heter meah rabanim. As you probably knew but forgot to mention.

The Lakwood Rosh Yesheva is a fucking asshole and piece of monkey shit.

May the Abishter punish him for all time in Gehenum for insulting and speaking Lashon Hara about a fellow Jew.

When he finally makes his way to Gehenum for the hated he has against Yidden who are all given a neshumeh by the Abishter instead of Ahavas Yisroel, I will visit his kaver with my hunte and B"H we will piss and shit on his grave together.

Stopping by Lakewood on a Snowy Erev Shabbat (apologies to Robert Frost)

Whose words these are I think I know.
His house is the Beit Midrash though;
He will not see me schlepping here
To watch Lakewood fill up with snow.

Bilaam's donkey must think it queer
To schmooze so all of Flatbush hears
Far from Lakewood and bochurim
The darkest Shabbos of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the shriek
Of Esav-calling and religious hate.

Lakewood is lovely, dark and deep.
But God has promises to keep,
And sinat chinam makes Him weep,
And sinat chinam makes Him weep.

Stopping by Lakewood on a Snowy Erev Shabbat (apologies to Robert Frost)

Whose words these are I think I know.
His house is the Beit Midrash though;
He will not see me schlepping here
To watch Lakewood fill up with snow.

Bilaam's donkey must think it queer
To schmooze so all of Flatbush hears
Far from Lakewood and bochurim
The darkest Shabbos of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the shriek
Of Esav-calling and religious hate.

Lakewood is lovely, dark and deep.
But God has promises to keep,
And sinat chinam makes Him weep,
And sinat chinam makes Him weep.

Neandershort: thanks! And the demons are easiest seen first in the face of my enemy, my brother...

personally, i believe that this generations supposed gedolim and roshei yeshiva are the worst hashpa on most of clal yisrael

which is why i suggest staying far, far away from them

Schneur,
Mike Kotler and the entire Kotler family of today are not worth your curses. They are nothing. BTW: Chaptzem's pronouncement of the "insanity" of the wife that Kotler abandoned is an utter lie. Kotler is corrupt (but very wealthy, sucking like a parasite off of his grandfather's good name) sub-human trash.

Fixed the bold.

Yochanan, excellent !
The sad thing is that it's true.

Thank you Failed Missiah for posting information without opinion or bias.

This Rosh Yeshiva is an emes Cocksucker.

Fuck you lowlife.

And the frumeh mentchen that said nothing while he spewed vitriol against fellow Jews who are shomer shabbos and mitzovt
I wish you nothing but tzures and clueless in your life for the next 4 generations.

Did no one say anything at this speech? Or did they let him carry on? I am surprised that after that they could even take one word he says seriously.
These rabbis have no clue about the world they live in. They sit there on their behinds and when making speeches they bring up examples which are so far off the mark or completely irrelevant that it ends up sounding ridiculous. I guess this Rabbi did the same thing. Meanwhile he will still take money from MO Jews. What a parasite.

MORDECHAI
they are NOT shomer torah umitzvos,they ARE oiver every issur possible,and they are more warped than the frei or conservative,cause they think they're right.get the facts and get a life!!!!

I think what we need is a war with the chareidim already they are sickening . They do nothing for Israel except take . Im a proud Dati Leumi Jew student Of Rav Brovender. We actually can learn and quote sources better than chareidim.

All of you posters are a bunch of pigs who got ruined in the system and are never going to olam habah especially you failed mashiach. You all have an agenda against frum people.Its one thing to disagree butYOU DONT CURSE.You should not sign with your hebrew names because its a chillul hashem

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