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November 30, 2009

Thugs: Haredim Take Over Ramapo School Board

Shtreiml This might be be the best reality TV you've ever seen.



This is only part one.

Watch the entire meeting, featuring haredi thuggery as clear as you'll probably ever see.

Comments

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Ive seen much clearer examples of haredi thuggery. No violence. No beating of women. No dead animals.
Im not saying the guy doesnt make me feel dirty, Ive just seen much worse.

Were they legally elected? Do they have the RIGHT to make such decisions for the electorate based on what they feel is right?

If the board chair was of any other race Shmarya would be all over the other board member for badgering him...

Just another example of the racist-based opinions of Shmarya and friends...

This might be be the best reality TV you've ever month.

what does that mean?

Just to be clear. I'm not saying that what they are doing is the right thing to do, but that is like saying that the democrats don't have the right to pass healthcare even though they won the elections because republicans don't think that that is good for the country...

I watched a few of the clips. The chair is obviously unsofisticated and not educated. I have served on boards of several shuls. In the more modern shuls the meetings are run more officially - per Roberts Rules etc. I have seen more sofisticated people use rules or procedures etc as methods of thuggery to prevent the less sofistaced from putting forth their agenda. I have to more Heimeshe meetings where you can bring up any issues and be heard fully disregarding any rules. There is usually a power struggle when the issues are heated.

The Yidden here are learning the system, learning to play within the rules or should I say to keep their thuggery witihin the rules. They obviously have alot to learn. They have also obviously learned enough to be chairing the meeting.

The sofisticated are as big as thugs as anyone. They use their social superiority to drown out the views of others.

To me (and I will called sick for this) I find it comical that these stuffy, educated, sofisticated (full of crap) people are being bossed around by this Chosid.

Were they legally elected? Do they have the RIGHT to make such decisions for the electorate based on what they feel is right?

If the board chair was of any other race Shmarya would be all over the other board member for badgering him...

Just another example of the racist-based opinions of Shmarya and friends...

IDIOT.

Being elected doesn't give you the right to break laws and act like a jackass.

That's something you would have learned in a normal school, but you didn't learn in yeshiva.

My skin is crawling while watching this, Shmarya. The issue is not whether they are allowed to do this. It is about how Jewish people behave in front of other people and the concept of chilul hashem. Let us remember we, as frum Jews are suuposed to represent a different kind of behavior and morality , i.e. Torah. If we don't want to be judged by the standards of Torah, we could just take off our yarmulkas and say we don't believe in the Torah. But let'sd not trumpet how Godly we are if we are not willing to have our conduct match that standard.

i am no expert on boar of ed meetings but it appears that they followed the rules of the board. if anyone has an issue with who was elected?chosen? they need to bring that up with the people they elected. if nothing gets done that means the majority of the town is happy. so stop complaining and spewing bigotry when things dont go your way.

from a news source at http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009911290381

Stone, one of the board members who voted for D'Agostino, declined to comment on the hiring Friday but talked about the video.

”Nothing is very simple,“ he said. ”The video on YouTube has been heavily edited to show a certain position. The damage has already been done.“


and Shmarya, for the second time,
5. No name-calling, please.

***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Stone, one of the board members who voted for D'Agostino, declined to comment on the hiring Friday but talked about the video.

”Nothing is very simple,“ he said. ”The video on YouTube has been heavily edited to show a certain position. The damage has already been done.“

The video is clearly UNEDITED. Anyone who spends an hour watching can see that clearly.

Stone is LYING.

and Shmarya, for the second time,
5. No name-calling, please.

***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Being an IDIOT – which you clearly are – doesn't get you banned.

But it does get you singled out for stupidity.

Now process:

If you want to make claims, back those claims with verifiable facts. Otherwise go away.

I don't see how the Motion to Table failed. I saw 3 in favor, 2 abstained and 3 against including the chair. As far as I know the chair can't vote except to settle a tie. So you had 3-2 in favor of the Motion to Table.

As far as those who are embarassed, don't be. The chair looks bad because he's not sofisticated. Go back two years when the Jews were a minority on the board and their vote didn't count same as those complaining now. Only difference is before is was done in a more sofisticated manner.

Also the chair (as far as I know) can't present a Motion. He can put an issue on the agenda. A croney can make the Motion, but I didn't think the chair could.

i am no expert on boar of ed meetings

Yes, that is obvious.

but it appears that they followed the rules of the board.

No, it does not. The board chair is reminded several times that what he is doing is in violation of the board's rules.

It also seems the chairman's actions violated NY State law.

if anyone has an issue with who was elected?chosen? they need to bring that up with the people they elected. if nothing gets done that means the majority of the town is happy. so stop complaining and spewing bigotry when things dont go your way.

Actually, the feds need to start using RICO law to take down these criminal enterprises masquerading as religious organizations.

some yidden get on the school board boards to weaken cut cut cut the budget since they feel I should not pay for school when I send my kids to Yeshiva.

Clearly selfish but the ultra frum have proved over and over they care about one thing their own and screw everybody else

If the guy was educated the meeting would have been 5 minutes. He clearly had all the votes. He (or a croney)could have moved to close the discussion and vote. He kept on rebringing his motion. Idiot.

Listen to the thugs in the audience at the end of the last you tube clip one the guys starts cursing.

Wow, start with the second part and on and you will reaaaaaaallly feel like you are watching TV.

I think Shmarya has earned the right to curse out anyone of us that he pleases. He gets cursed out right and left. He lets us post unreviewed and unedited.

Its been awhile since I was on a non-heimeshe board, but from my recollection the meeting was not conducted properly; which - by the way - makes the chair an idiot. It would be much to his advantage to utilize proper rules and procedures - when he has a majority vote. I have been on boards where the minority was politely shut down in a most prim and proper fashion by the rules.

the lawyer they hired specializes in planning, zoning and real estate.

Why hire him, very strange odd choice that need explanation

Seymour: Tax credits and private school vouchers would benefit non-jews much more than Jews who send their kids to private schools. We get our kids into private schools by hook or by crook. Poorer non-jews don't have this option.

apparently your guys despise anything associated with chareidim and/or (ultra) orthodox jews. what is democracy? aren't frum jews aloud to run for school board? if they were democratically elected - it is their position, and they are aloud to make decisions that they believe will benefit THEIR constituents - even if YOU don't approve of it.

the democrats are in majority in Washington, and are pushing (very hard) an extreme leftist agenda - they were elected! if you have a problem, talk with you're representative - this is democracy! stop lambasting EVERYTHING frum!

apparently your guys despise anything associated with chareidim and/or (ultra) orthodox jews. what is democracy? aren't frum jews aloud to run for school board? if they were democratically elected - it is their position, and they are aloud to make decisions that they believe will benefit THEIR constituents - even if YOU don't approve of it.

the democrats are in majority in Washington, and are pushing (very hard) an extreme leftist agenda - they were elected! if you have a problem, talk with you're representative - this is democracy! stop lambasting EVERYTHING frum!

The Torah is against democracy. Therefore, frum yidden must stand strong against democracy. All decisions must be made by our holy rabbis.

They are so embarrassing.

how did he violate ny state law?

That story in the Iowa Independent may indicate the bankruptcy court, trustee, or someone else has started "clawback" proceedings. They may be trying to get back any monies paid out in the 90 days before the bankruptcy filing.

We are only hearing about the livestock producers because they are organized through their cattlemen's association. Who knows who else is getting demands to have payments refunded?

Apologies to Steely Dan:

I remember the 613 mitzvot
When you put me on the Monsey Trails
Up to Ramapo
It was still September
When your rebbe was quite surprised
To find you with the Rubashkin dudes
In the county jail
I was learning with the boys upstairs
When I heard about the whole affair
They said oy vey
Secular education won't do

CHORUS:
Well I did not think the rabbi
Could be so cruel
And I'm never going back
To my old school

Robert's Orders thrown in the trash
Soon it's gonna be doomsday
Up in Ramapo
I can't stand it
Doing what they did before
Living like a rabbi's son
Or like King Shlomo
Well I hear the shofar but I can't go
It's as lawless as Mexico
They said oy vey!
Science and English won't do

CHORUS

New York State tumbles into the sea
That'll be the day I go
Back to Ramapo
Tried to warn you
About Chaim and the Rebbe
But I can't seem to get to you
Through Messiah Failed
Well I hear the shofar but I can't go
The chillul Hashem will surely grow
I said oy vey
Guacamole won't do

CHORUS

What the hell are these frumbags doing on a school board? Their kids don't attend public schools.

Hi Mr. A,

That's a hell of a good question.

But it begs another question: Where in the hell is one to go for an answer?


YL,

You are the J.S. Bach of "Poetic Parodies".

Certainly if dinah dimalchusah dinah, you don't occupy a position if you arent willing to learn enough to fulfill the function legally. Even if he is a complete amhaaretz about their operating rules he knows the din that negius is assur. You must behave transparently in ways that inspire confidence that there is no conflict of interest. This is not a torah chiddush. Believe me if they worried about these things the chillul hashem problems would take care of themselves.

Thanks, Sage.

Mr. Apikorus, these "frumbags" fund the local public schools through their taxes.

Scotty one of your dumbest post ever. If anything it was the opponents on the board who were out of order. They sought to turn the board meeting into a question the chairman exercise about issues they knew the answer to as they have apparently discussed this in great detail in the past - apparently for no reason other than being argumentative. If they had objections to the retention of counsel they should have stated their objection directly. It is perfectly within their right to object and state the reason for their objection but what they were doing is just wasting everyone's time. The only thing I fault the chairman for is his being non-confrontational about shutting them down. I would have shut them up much sooner. You apparently have no clue how school (and other) board meetings should be held. Guess they didn't teach you this in chabad shaliach school. Maybe the next time you decide to frum out for a couple of years you will join satmar instead of chabad. They might provide you with some more practical skills.

The three of them are an emabarassment and make me cringe. No wonder the goyim have so much negative to say.
The frumster sitting on the left couldn't sit still for a minute. At first I thought he was eating, like danish crumbs from a paper bag, that was what I thought. 'but maybe food was not in the picture. Maybe he just had ants in his pants.
Whatever!!

Tanya: I agree their behavior was pretty embarassing. Worse though is that they are idiots and learn nothing from the outside world. They have a majority so they could learn the rules, learn how to act like human beings, pass their agenda and come out smelling like roses.

Seymour wrote:
"the lawyer they hired specializes in planning, zoning and real estate.

Why hire him, very strange odd choice that need explanation"

I didn't have time to find out how this issue on Long Island played out, but this video from Long Island's cable TV system news channel has the lawyer in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqV2tEkNQew

Abusive rule by majority is very common. These guys will screw up sufficiently in couple of years and will be re-elected.

WSC: I may not agree, but you often have the most succinct meaningful comment. WSC, this Bud's for you.

Look, on the point of order, The chairman can rule and then then general membership can overturn his ruling. Why do the chareidim want to hire a law firm that is under investigation is beyond me. I am sure than another attorney who is not under investigation can do the same thing. The chairman really ought to be familiar with rules of procedure and how to answe a simple question. This has nothing to do with being a chareidi. It has to do with running an organization, not a dicussion of what to buy for the weekly kiddush.

My next question, Successful Mullah:

Why the hell was the meeting held at 12:40 AM?

++Successful Meshugah | November 30, 2009 at 04:52 PM++

How do we know they are taxpaying citizens? Are they employed legitimately, get W-2's, or are they on welfare? Do they list themselves as 'clergy' for income tax purposes? Are their homes 'synagogues'?
I am making no assumptions that these are taxpayers.

Chabadnik Attorney, thanks. I was being sarcastic at 3:50.

WSC, in Ramapo the school is funded through property taxes. If you live in Ramapo then you directly or indirectly fund the school system. Even if you don't earn a dime. I am not very familiar with alot of the background info in Ramapo, but in the Five Towns the controversy started when school board members decided they could take a free ride off the taxes of majority of families who don't use the public school system. Had they shown some basic fiscal care, then the orthodox residents would have no interest in being elected to the school board. I assume that the same is true to some degree in Ramapo as well.

They were elected fair and square and they gotta live with them till the next election.

We got Obama and I dont like him and think hes destroying the country not just ramapo but i gotta live with him

same thing

What the hell are these frumbags doing on a school board? Their kids don't attend public schools

I think that they were voted in by the people of the district by a process known as an election. That is the way things are done here in the United States.

SM, I appreciate your polite response.

In my town here in central NJ (less than 10% Jews, lots of senior citizens, and families who send their kids to the local Catholic school) only 19% of the voters have kids in the public school system.
Nevertheless, our school board, a mix of parents and older people, prepares a budget (with a lot of hard work) to keep our schools first rate without too much pain for our taxpayers. These budgets are routinely approved by the voters on election day. I think most people in our town realize that keeping our school system first rate improves everyone's property values in the big picture, and the quality of life for everyone who lives here.

I can understand if the previous school board in Ramapo or Five Towns had been irresponsible.
I can also understand the arguments for vouchers for people with kids in private schools, but that isn't the law at this time. (I have mixed feelings about the voucher issue.)

The slobs in this video are just a bunch of bad stereotypes.
BTW, in our town, 5 of the 10 members of the Board of Ed are Jewish. They are all attorneys, accountants, or college faculty. Maybe that's why things are the way they are in my town.

WSC: I realized.

If your kids don't attend public schools, why run for a school board in the first place?

Could it possibly be that you want to legislate it out of existence, as you're paying taxes for a service you choose not to use?

Mr. A:

They have either closed, or are talking about closing schools in that district. Who gets the empty buildings?

Some people on our local school board don't have kids in the system, but serve on the board for reasons that seem sincere and altruistic. Those people are professionals in other fields that are relevant, such as college faculty, business executives, attorneys or accountants.

Given the abysmal record of the white shirt/black vest/unkempt beard crowd when it comes to the selfless concern for the well-being of others who aren't Jewish, I seriously doubt that Ramapo's orthodox board members are of such caliber.

Seymour wrote: "the lawyer they hired specializes in planning, zoning and real estate. Why hire him, very strange odd choice that need explanation"

They want to open a slaughterhouse in school playgrounds and are anticipating zoning complaints by the usual antisemitic suspects.

Mr. Apikorus, the meeting was not called for 12.40 a.m. Your information is false. The meeting began at a much earlier hour and lasted until 12.40 a.m. The retention of new counsel was addressed as the last item on the meeting at the request of the Superintendent.

WSC, I agree that the meeting was not handled well by the hasidic members, but that doesn't make them wrong, just inept. I do however fault the other members for trying to turn the meeting into a circus. Scotty's attempt to depict this as haredi thuggery is nothing but his bigotry speaking.

btw, I spoke to a friend who lives in Ramapo. What I understand is that the issue about retaining counsel is not something sprung on the board at this meeting. It has been discussed a number of times (I understand that this has been ongoing for more than a year) and the objecting board members were given the opportunity to present other candidates but none did. As I understand it, the board was dissatisfied with the current counsel because they felt he was too close with certain members of the board and employees of the school district and thus wasn't not effectively representing the interest of the majority of the board. That is a legitimate reason to replace the school board's counsel and legitimately within the discretion of the board. The firm in question apparently have a signficant practice representing school boards and represent a number of school districts. In short, the board has been discussing replacing counsel for over a year. The objecting members never suggested an alternative candidate and simply dug their heels in saying they want to keep the current counsel and after some time the majority decided to act. End of story. Nothing unusual or inappropriate about this unless you want to apply the Scotty spin.

Also, I don't know if this is accurate, but rumor has it that the prior attorney billed an average of 7 hours per day to the school district in the prior year. If true, it does raise some questions.

"If your kids don't attend public schools, why run for a school board in the first place?"

Because the school board was irresponsible spending their money.

"the lawyer they hired specializes in planning, zoning and real estate. Why hire him, very strange odd choice that need explanation"

The law firm in question represents a number of school boards.

Mr. Apikorus & sage,

"What the hell are these frumbags doing on a school board? Their kids don't attend public schools"

the answer is VERY simple:

why the hell do people who send their kids to PRIVATE schools - why are they forced (with the threat of loosing their home!) to PAY for other peoples children to go to FREE school? if they are tax payers, they ought to have a say in how the money is spend and maybe ATTEMPT to have some of the funds allocated to after-school or pre-school programs for their private schools!

Lets face it: if it were African Americans, Chinese Americans, Muslim Americans, you would hail them as champions. you just DESPISE religious JEWS! you are a self hating jewish antisemite! you will find reason to criticize ANYTHING chareidi or ultra orthodox!

"Successful" Moshiach - In the last year, the district had been billed 300,000 plus by the old attorney, and at the low end of the estimate for the new guys was at least twice that much. Fine, so the new guys would work 7 hours a day also, but at an additional $130/hour. Look, I know how school boards are supposed to run, and I know about the RFP's (Request for Proposal) that the board seeks from law firms. The Chair's words indicate to me that they interviewed a total of ONE law firms. One! That is wholly irresponsible.
Look, they were elected and so be it. However, the chair is a son of a bitch, probably a ben niddah, and he is an embarassment to the Jewish people. He is an obnoxious pompous idiot slob, and I am tired of dealing with Jews like this. Damn it, I am so pissed off at all of the animals that call themselves orthodox Jews. I am a Torah observant Jew, and I am disgusted. These guys don't give a damn about the school district, they have their own agenda and their fiduciary duties be damned. My kids go to Torah day schools, but I am happy to pay taxes to the local school district. It is a necessary "evil". Moreover, for observant Jews with children who need special services, it is the public school district that provides this.

By the way, anyone can go and search back for all of my many posts over the past year or so since I have been posting, and I don't believe you will find a curse word in any post of mine. I just did in my prior post, adn it is very out of character for me, and it's because I am really ticked off. I haven't cursed prior, although I do think I put a curse on Maven once, but I did apologize. I am imperfect, but at least I can laugh at myself.

I guess I'm the bad Jew. My Abba Mori and my Ima Morasi, A"H, taught me to have derech eretz, morals, ethics, to be a mensch. I guess I was born on the wrong side of the tracks....

Chiam, your taxes also pay for police/fire/ambulance. What if you never had to dial 911 during the year? Should you have to pay that fraction of your taxes for the year?
What if you're not a senior citizen? Should your tax money go for the senior citizen center?
If you don't drive, should your tax money go to help maintain the roads?
If you're on the school board, you should be an advocate of the public school system, and try to achieve a budget that works for the betterment of the school system, and will not overburden the taxpayers. Your goal should not be to bring down the public school system, and that's what your frum friends in this video look to be trying to do.

itchiemayer,

"the chair is a son of a bitch, probably a ben niddah . . I am a Torah observant Jew..."

I've seen many of the comments you left on this site for over a year. as a tora observent jew you must have learnt the story how King David ostresized a group of Jews and questioned their lineage - solely because of their LACK of Rachmonus/pity on another Jew, and their inability to forgive them. (-who as actually done something very bad to them...)

you probably know of the teaching of the Mishna, not to judge others until YOU have been in HIS shoes. not to disparage another jew and hand him over to NON-JEWS to be judged - even after all your rants of "dina d'malchusa...". you are OBLIGATED to help another Jew in trouble and or in prison - even if he cosed HIMSELF to be in that predicament!!! (to the extent of selling a shul and sefer torah!) learn some Rambam, Shuchan Aruch, Talmud etc.

you are a self hatting jew with no Rachmonus on a fellow jew. Dovid Hamelech questions the lineage of people exhibiting these character traits..... before criticizing and rejoicing in the pain of fellow jews (whether "torah observant or not!") - look in the mirror and do teshuva!!!

itchiemayer,

"the chair is a son of a bitch, probably a ben niddah . . I am a Torah observant Jew..."

I've seen many of the comments you left on this site for over a year. as a tora observent jew you must have learnt the story how King David ostresized a group of Jews and questioned their lineage - solely because of their LACK of Rachmonus/pity on another Jew, and their inability to forgive them. (-who as actually done something very bad to them...)

you probably know of the teaching of the Mishna, not to judge others until YOU have been in HIS shoes. not to disparage another jew and hand him over to NON-JEWS to be judged - even after all your rants of "dina d'malchusa...". you are OBLIGATED to help another Jew in trouble and or in prison - even if he cosed HIMSELF to be in that predicament!!! (to the extent of selling a shul and sefer torah!) learn some Rambam, Shuchan Aruch, Talmud etc.

you are a self hatting jew with no Rachmonus on a fellow jew. Dovid Hamelech questions the lineage of people exhibiting these character traits..... before criticizing and rejoicing in the pain of fellow jews (whether "torah observant or not!") - look in the mirror and do teshuva!!!

++itchiemayer | November 30, 2009 at 08:43 PM++

Itchie, I totally agree.

++itchiemayer | November 30, 2009 at 09:00 PM++

I didn't even notice any profanity (on this website, nasty words are so routine, it's a sad part of the daily FM lexicon). Don't be so hard on yourself! :)

Chaim - I am a self-hating Jew? So you tell me not to judge others, but now you judge me? Have you been in my shoes? I think not. Have a nice day.

++you are a self hatting jew++

Itchie, since you put your hat on by yourself, you are indeed a 'self-hatting' Jew!

By the way, the whole questioning of lineage thing is so ridiculous, and part of the brainwashing that goes on. "You are not as good as me, you must be a goy!" Ridiculous.

WSC - You are right! I'm only a self-hatting Jew. See, Hashem didn't let Chaim write "hating", because he wanted to spare Chaim the aveirah of writing ill of me.
True hashocha pratis. I'm sorry for assuming the worst, R' Chaim!

"hashgocha" protis

I'm referring more to the way you were cheering for SMR to be locked up...

you are questioning the linage... but at the same time calling another a ben nida...

"In the last year, the district had been billed 300,000 plus by the old attorney, and at the low end of the estimate for the new guys was at least twice that much."

Mr. Itchie, not only was your post vile it was based on factually false information. The "low end" estimate of the new attorney costing twice as much is the "low end" estimate of those opposed to changing counsel. Do the math - $300,000 a year at $125 per hour means the old attorney was billing 46+ hours a week to the school board - more if he took any vacation. This compounded by the fact (which those objecting won't tell you) that the school board actually used a different firm to represent the board with respect to special education issues. That firm also charged $125 an hour for travel time and I understand was located a greater distance from East Ramapo. The esimates made by those who support the change were that the change in counsel may result in a savings to at most an additional $75,000 in fees. Their reasoning was that there was some inefficiency in using two firms, the rate difference between the counsel selected and the firm representing the district on special education matters was not that great and that the regular counsel was billing the district for time that was not technically legal work. Frankly, if it is true that he was billing 46+ hours per week, that is not so far fetched. I'm not sure if you know anything about legal fees but $250 an hour is quite reasonable and I doubt you can find many competent attorneys for less than that. Charging half rates for travel time is also quite reasonable and usually does not add up to that much because travel is only necessary when in person meeting are required. That vast majority of an attorney's advice would typically be rendered by phone or email. So in the future, when you are inclined to post another vile post, please try to make sure that you at least get your facts straight.

I never said one shouldn't judge, you did.

Moreover, I was not "cheering" for SMR to be locked up. I was praying that he would get his punishment in olam hazeh. You don't think he should be locked up?

Really, how the heck would I know if he is a ben niddah or not. I threw it out there to be insulting. Fact is, some FFB and surely many BT's are b'nei niddah. I'd marry a bas niddah if she were a mensch and had a pure yiddishe neshoma. I don't hold yichus and abuse and things like that against people like many ultra orthos do, who judge all the time that lack of yichus, not FFB, and other "imperfections" makes one less suitable for marriage. Think about it.

What is vile SM is your low standards for the behavior of Torah observant Jews.

No part of these videos is either funnier, or more ironic, or more exasperating, than the chairman's effort to discipline the audience with a mention of having pledged allegiance to the US flag and the Constitution. I don't think I've laughed out loud so well alone in weeks.

itchiemayer,

"You don't think he should be locked up?"

As I mentioned before, you should LEARN some TORAH and you'll find that it is YOUR obligation as a Jew to try to help a fellow jew that is incarcerated, that he should get OUT (and certainly NOT pray that he get locked up!!!) - even if it was of his own making...... don't write how you feel based on american law, learn what YOUR obligations are as a Jew.

now obviously, one is to attempt to be careful and follow the law of the land - granted. but if/when a fellow jew is in trouble - for whatever reason (unless he is an imminent danger to the community, i.e. rapist, murderer and the like) YOU and I have the Torah obligation to pray for him and do all in our power - including selling the community's sifrey torah! to help him....

so I don't sanction his behavior, but to cheer his locking up (with the "cute" excuse that he should get his punishment in olam haze...) - I hope Hashem judges you more favorably and with more kindness then you judge him and other frum yiden.

the Baal Shem Tov teaches: that when one comes into the world to come after 120, he is shown a 'vision' (=video) of the life of an individual, with all his shortcomings, and then HE is asked to pass judgment on that jew. the way HE judges that individual (which is the way he was accustomed to judge others during his lifetime) THIS is the way the heavenly court will pass judgment on him! so for your benefit, judge your fellow with a little more kindness, and "right" eye...

Chaim - I wouldn't exactly call SMR "frum".
If that is frumkeit, then woe to all of us.

If SMR hadn't been a ganav, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Go ahead and try to turn this around on me, that is fine.
He put a stumbling block before a blind man, so shame on him. He was arrogant and he worshipped the almighty dollar. At the end of the day, I think you believe Shalom Mordechai Rubashkin is a Tzaddik. I'm sorry, but the dan l'kaf zechus argument only goes so far for me. At some point, reality must set in.

Chaim - so if you have a child that wants to marry a person that has been sexually abused, but has received treatment and is a stable person, I just bet that most people you hang with would consider that person not such an eligible person for a good shidduch, except to be a shidduch for another person that has ome "imperfection".

The fact is we all judge, and we do it everyday. Chaim does it, Successul Messiah does it, everyone does it. We all judge. However, if one judges in a manner not in accordance with someone else's manner, then the individuals feel the need to demonize one another, such as calling a fellow Jew "a self-hating Jew" just because their manner of thinking is different from their own. Woe to all of those people of great yichus who didn't consider a potential shidduch because they were not a FFB, or they couldn't provide the "proper" dowry, or they were a convert, or they were abused, or they have no yichus...yes, woe to those self-righteous ones for judging entire groups of people with less than an ayin tov.

I'm with you on this one, Itchie. Why is it the dissenters on this blog never require the religious--who for the most part have been brought up with Torah from the beginning--to behave Jewishly? Why is it the seculars and non-haredim and so forth are being chastized heavily for chastizing Jews who actually AREN'T behaving Jewishly? Frankly, it's bizarre.

The rather loud lady in the audience who cried out 'God is watching you' more than once... Did you see the snivelling smirk on the chairman's face? You think that remark shook him even slightly? No. What help, Chaim? A lifetime of being brought up frum and he doesn't know what he's doing is bullshit?

So Chaim - nu, what are you doing to get our fellow yid, Bernie Madoff out of jail? I mean you certainly wouldn't say that he isn't as deserving as SMR, right? After all, that would be judging, wouldn't it?

itchemeir,

actually i think you are a tzadik (at least in potential).. now lets not make blanket statements about others, i'm sure there are many ways to look at your behaviors (whether bein odom l'chaviaro or bein odom lamokom) that are not the most perfect and sparkling... yes SMR is high profile, but most of us are not tzadikim in one way or another, that makes us not frum? so unless you are 1000% in every aspect of torah you are a worthless.....??? then I'm afraid my friend, that we are all in a very sorry situation.

SMR doesn't need to be a tzadik for you to look favorably upon him and try to help a fellow jew. even if he has done something wrong...... didn't we all do 'someting' wrong is some way or another? if not then you are part on the .0001 percent... yes he did something wrong, and still the TORAH tells you do be 'don l'kaf zechus'!!! and sell a sefer torah (our most valuable and holy item) in order to help save him...)

as a torah observant jew, there is no such thing as "at s certin point reality sets in".... TORAH is the ultimate truth ALWAYS....

yes he did something wrong, and still the TORAH tells you do be 'don l'kaf zechus'!!! and sell a sefer torah (our most valuable and holy item) in order to help save him...)

Please.

If you had actually learned halakha (rather than farbreng and tell rebbe stories), you'd probably know a basic halakhic fact: dina d'malkhuta dina means that a country can set its laws and its laws do not have to carry with them the punishments the Torah sets out.

This means that as long as the punishments are given to all lawbreakers more or less equally, we must hold by them. This is discussed in poskim.

And dan l'caf zehut does not mean we judge a convicted criminal to innocent (even if that criminal is a frum yid and a nice guy).

A convicted criminal is guilty and is judged guilty, and this also plays out in halakha with regard to his testimony in cases before a beit din and in other matters.

Send SMR some chocolate. Say a kapittl tehillim for him. Help his wife and kids.

But do NOT minimize the crimes he committed.

How did this turn into another discussion about SMR ?

Asa: I am glad I am not the only one who found the video funny. Sad but funny.

My take home from all this is that both the current and the proposed lawyers overcharge!!

I can almost deal with 10 minutes being a billable hour for a lawyer, but then how do attorneys fit 20 billable hours into one chronological hour?

Maybe they discovered time travel!!

Y'know its the 99% of lawyers who are unethical that give the other 1% a bad name!!

itchie-you're the best!!

Hey Successful Meshugah, how come when I click on your name I'm directed to a website run by evangelical Christians?

Could it be that YOU believe in the one true God?

Appeal to US constitution by the guy who's values are diametrically opposed to the values of said constitution and declaration of independence smacks on hypocricy indeed.

He does not consider that "all men are created equal". He does not believe that democratic government is preferrable to rule of kings. He would not send his kid into American Army. All he does - he plays the system, but he is not invested in its survival.

Ben is right, these guys play the system. I trust with these guys in charge, their legal fees will go way up. What do these guys know about terminating teachers, or even moreso, a case of sexual abuse of a teacher and student. These things do happen. The chair is clearly a man who does not know the meaning of the word humility. I would say that anyone who could watch this and not be at the very least terribly uncomfortable with the manner in which the head of the board comes across, I would say they have an incredibly distorted frame of reference.

Itchie, as soon as your opponent brings up hitler, nazism, or calls you a self-hating Jew, you win!

I remember hearing of an attorney who would charge an hour of time each day because he thought about the case while in the shower each morning.

My ex-wife's attorney would charge for sending an e-mail; that's in addition to the time it took him to write the precious e-mail. The act of sending the message, and it occupying the few kilobytes on his computer were justified on his bill.

To Chaim and everyone else - I guarantee you that if you ran into me on the street, in the store, at work, in shul, you would find me to be a very pleasant and polite person. I am proud to say that words women have used to describe me to prospective mates are words like "integrity", "yashar", and "sweet and aidel".
I do believe the mitzvos bein adam lachaveiro are being overlooked by many in the orthodox world. I am always aware of the yarmulke on my head and the string or two that are usually sticking out at my waste (hard to get a perfect tuck of tzitzis). I am not overbearing, pompous, rude, and undignified. I am not perfect by any means, but this is a topic which resonates so much with me.I have little tolerance for those that are overbearing, pompous, rude, and undignified, kal v'chomer when they claim to be a Torah orthodox Jew. We are expected to be, and have an obligation to act, with the utmost
of integrity and to be a Kiddush Hashem, to sanctify the name of G-d, in everything we do.

Itchie, I'm sure you're a great guy, but please, don't put tzitzis in your waste! Use your waist instead! :)

No, it does not. The board chair is reminded several times that what he is doing is in violation of the board's rules.

he is not in violation of the rules, he can over rule a point of order and he was right. the treasurer told him he could. i looked at the bylaws and it appears to all be legal the hiring of a new lawyer had been on the table the previous meeting as he says at the begging so he can bring the motion to hire him. he does not need to explain anymore. he would need to if he was trying to convince anyone but he had a majority vote so he can suspend discussion.

Shmarya,

"If you had actually learned halakha (rather than farbreng..."

I have noticed that often you portray yourself as someone that is knowledgeable in Halacha and Poskim. actually, if we are talking about the SAME Jewish Orthodox Halacha -- you come across to me as being able to use some fancy phrases and quotes but are actually VERY ignorant (either you actually never learned it or...), but Dina D'malchusa has NOTHING to do with a) rejoicing in another jews downfall b) with YOUR obligation as a jew to help him out of the situation!!! Yes, one is obliged to obey the governments laws (so long as they don't interfere with the Torah) - but it DOESN'T mean that one that has not followed it perfectly is no longer Jewish or worthy of our help and sympathy.

this goes BOTH ways: a jew who was not (or is not) religious for most of his life - dosent make him into someone we dont want to help. so to a frum jew who has "sliped" is one area of life dosent make him into a monster to be publicly stoned. and yes, even if Dina D'malchusa sais that the partiular thing that he did, deserves him a long prison sentance, this dosnt mean that we need to go to sleep and not do everything - legaly - in our power to assist him.

and most importantly: are you aware of how meny ehrliche frum yiden actualy sat in jail for extensive periods of time for NOT WANTING TO BE "MOSER" ANOHER JEW to the state ("dina d'malchusa...") did you ever hear the Halochos of Mesira? do you know the din for one who is 'moser' onther jew just for money (even if no actual harm will befall him physically? i believe that the Forward, Hechsher tzedek and even this website come dangerously close to mosrim...

I am not the biggest lamdan, but my friend, before portraying yourself as a knowledgeable person in Jewish Orthodox Halacha, spend some time learning the Poskim in Hebrew and in FULL DETAIL (don't quote me from some English book or website bringing little snippets....) just remember how many ehrliche jews have let themselves and their family's suffer rather then ratting out another jew (even one that has done something against dina d'malchusa...). and yes it is very different when the person in question is an imminent threat to the community i.e. a rapist, murderer and the like...

lets face it, you hate frum yiden and especialy lubavitchers, and will do anyhing to hurt them and will rejoice in their shortcomings and downfalls. and you pretend to use TORAH (no less!!!) to cover up your vile baseless hatred... do teshuva. are YOU perfect in EVERY detail in life - both when it comes to your dealings with others (bein odom l'chaveiro) and with your many obligations to hashem (bein odom lamokom)? if the answer is yes, well then you are a true Tzadik ( (one in 5 million...) but if you are like the vast majority of us, we all have shortcomings in different parts of our life, and we need to put great effort to improve ourselves, but it doesn't make us into someone to be publicly held up and publicly stoned by FELLOW JEWS!!!! (last week when you ran the article about SMR waking up in the morning reciting the whole Tehilim... all the 'regulars' on this site had a field day with it as if YOU ARE ALL PERFECT in all details of YOUR life's... don't be hypocrites... (i forgot, only when a frum jew is caught doing something wrong HE is a hypocrite, buy anyone else - it is to be expected...)

Have some Ahavas Yisroel - yes this is true for any and every jew!!!

Successful Messiah, the meeting started at 7:30 PM, droned on for two hours, and then the frumbags went into "executive session" for 3 hours and 10 minutes. Probably they had to daven to Joel Teitelbaum or something.

The meeting was reconvened at 12:40 AM, after just about everyone had left. If that isn't a perversion of democracy I don't know what is.

itchiemayer,

yes it is true that being frum brings with it the extra obligation to be EXTRA careful with the way others look upon us and not to make a chilul Hashem, granted. but we are talking about someone that wasn't overly careful on EVERY detail of dina d'malchusa, does this mean that WE need to give him SKILA (stone him)? he did something wrong, so we should rejoice in his pain and suffering and hope and wish for a severe punishment by the government??? Shame on you! just because he makes YOU 'feel' uncomfortable, this gives you the right to throw him under the bus (so to speak).

again let me ask you ARE YOU PERFECT??? no one is!!!

it's very interesting, that when ever a (frum) jew does something wrong every self hatting jew out there comes out of the woodworks and calls for his head... (whenever someone else does the exact same thing... its quite....

A blog about Ramapo has some interesting posts about how the 'bloc' got on that board. The school board member job is an unpaid position. Still makes you wonder why they would want to hire an Italian-American lawyer from Long Island.

http://www.preserveramapo.org/Community%20View/back_door_to_the_board_room.htm

http://www.preserveramapo.org/Preserve%20Ramapo%202009/slate_of_stealth_candidates_refu.htm

Actually, the feds need to start using RICO law to take down these criminal enterprises masquerading as religious organizations

Amen! Bimhera beyamenu !

So Chiam, is anyone who dislikes the frummies a "self-hating Jew?" Personally, I consider the black hats and streimel kopfs cults, as much related to Judaism as Moonies are to Christians, although the Moonies are far less obnoxious.

Mr. Apikorus,

when you see a frum yid you cringe. whenever you have the opportunity to lambaste, badmouth or give info to the government that will help indict a frum yid you run as fast as you can to do it and relish every moment... and love to watch him suffer...

when you see an African American, Asian, Mexican American do something you EXCUSE it.... when you see a terrorist, rapist etc. you find all kinds of excuses for their bad behavior... they were mistreated as a child, someone looked at them the wrong way....

but wen a frum jew does something... it's the end of the world..... yes, unfortunately this is called a self hatting jew.... fortunately, it is a condition that can be remedied...

Chiam, you need to contact Reuven Sabel. His phone number is listed on other threads here.

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