Rabbis Tell WBA Champ Boxing Is Against Jewish Law

"When you're in the ring after five rounds, going on 12, it's very spiritual, and I'm saying my own little prayers throughout the fight, 'Please, God, protect me.'"

Full of the fighting spirit: Brooklyn boxer contends he can be rabbi
BY JAKE PEARSON • New York Daily News

Brooklyn boxer Yuri Foreman won the WBA super welterweight championship in Las Vegas last week, fulfilling one of his two life goals.

Now he wants to complete the other - becoming a rabbi.

While he hears criticism about his profession from some in Brooklyn's Jewish community, Foreman, 29, said, "People who have never been in the ring, never done what I do, they're sometimes really quick to give their opinions.

"They like to say what's forgiven and what's forbidden...but it's not so simple."

The 29-year-old Foreman, who lives in Carroll Gardens and trains in Gleason's Gym in DUMBO, has a record of 28-0. He's also been a part-time rabbinical student for the past three years, even though it is widely held that a rabbi shouldn't be a professional fighter.

"I don't think it's even a debate among rabbis," said Sid Leiman, a professor of Jewish history at Brooklyn College. "Rabbis would look unkindly on [boxing]; if it's not against Jewish law, it's certainly against the spirit of Jewish law."

Still, Foreman is not alone. Flatbush's Dmitriy Salita - who, like Foreman, also keeps kosher and will not fight on the Sabbath or on holidays - is a professional boxer and an Orthodox Jew, though not a rabbi-to-be.

But that doesn't matter to some.

"The wrong way of looking at this is to say, 'He's an observant Jew and he's boxing so it's okay,'" said Rabbi Yaakov Osdoba, 40, a seminary instructor in Crown Heights. "The point is, even though he's observant it doesn't justify [boxing]."

Foreman doesn't buy the criticism, saying portions of Halakhah, Jewish law, provide justification for the sport he not only loves, but one he feels brings him closer to God.

"Look, if you ask, just boxing, any rabbi who doesn't know boxing is going to give you an answer right away," he said.

"But when you're in the ring after five rounds, going on 12, it's very spiritual, and I'm saying my own little prayers throughout the fight, 'Please, God, protect me.'"

The 154-pound slugger is originally from Belarus. He emigrated to Israel when he was 7, where he won three national championships as a teenager.

He came to Carroll Gardens 10 years ago to train for a world championship and discovered religion as he found success in the ring, studying at Temple Iyyun on Union St.

On the way, he won a Daily News Golden Gloves title.

Foreman has a year left before being ordained, something he says will happen whether or not he has every Brooklyn rabbi's approval.

"Listen, I came from the Soviet Union, where religion was illegal," he said. "In America, you still have opportunities to be Jewish."

I looked into this twice, once when I first became Orthodox and then again more recently.

Halakhicly, I think it breaks down like this:

1. Learning self defense, including boxing, is okay.

2. Fighting in amateur bouts wearing head protection under strictly controlled conditions, or sparring under similar conditions, may be okay.

3. Sparing or fighting using professional rules is not okay.

4. Fighting without head protection is not okay.

The operative term here is safety.

We now know that even seemingly minor blows to the head can cause brain damage. (This is a problem for NFL players, especially linemen, as well as boxers.) As people live longer, that brain damage becomes much more apparent.

The punch drunk fighter (a good fictionalized example of this is Coach on Cheers, although his impairment came from being repeatedly beaned, not from boxing) is brain damaged.

What halakha would expect in order to permit participation in professional boxing is the risk of this damage to be quite low. But the risk is not low – the risk is quite high.

The reason Foreman and Salita can still fight and be Chabad rabbinical students is, I believe, related to how Matisyahu was able to stand on stage before non-Jewish audiences wearing a kapote and black hat and sing as revelers formed mosh pits and the like – whatever gets Chabad (or a particular corner of Chabad) good publicity becomes permitted, because the greater "good" of promoting Menachem Mendel Schneerson and fundraising trump the "minor" halakhas that prohibit or strongly discourage such behavior.

Foreman's response to halakha-based criticism, "when you're in the ring after five rounds, going on 12, it's very spiritual, and I'm saying my own little prayers throughout the fight, 'Please, God, protect me,'" displays an infantile understanding of theology and halakha.

As the gemara points out, a thief also prays. He asks God to protect him, to help him avoid capture, and to allow him to return safely to his home. But this act of prayer, as genuine as it surely is, does not make the crimes committed kosher.

And Foreman's heartfelt prayers do not make brain damage kosher, either. 

Comments

[fakewoodnj]

which rov paskened that you are not allowed to box??

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Wasn't Reish Lakish a professional wrestler?

[effie]

What halakha would expect in order to permit participation in professional boxing is the risk of this damage to be quite low. But the risk is not low – the risk is quite high.

What about obese rabbis, who chain smoke, get no exercise, and eat diets high in fat and cholesterol? Is there a ban on that? I believe more people get brain damage from M.I.s and strokes than from professional boxing.

In fact, wasn't there a rabbi who was also a runner who tried to encourage people to take up running and they also gave him a lot of grief, too?

[rabbidw]

Shmarya, you seem to be a fascist who really thinks you know medicine, heath risks, and how to weigh the halachic balancing. Does halacha allow bungee jumping? Mountain climbing? parasailing?
Since ancien times there have always been some methods of earning a living that were more dangerous than others. Can you be a cop? a fireman? a soldier? What profession, or hobby, besides boxing would you ban as being too dangerous under halacha? If he was MO and not Chabad you would say he is a role model.

[Shmarya]

You seem to have great difficulty with the idea that halakha takes positions on any non-ritual issue. Yet halakha clearly does so.

Where did you learn? Where did you get smicha?

[fakewoodnj]

you didnt answer my question.

[R]

I don't see the problem with his boxing, but i do see the problem with him saying he wants to be a Rabbi. I guess it's a bit like those Rabbis who do all sorts of illegal activities.

[Shmarya]

you didnt answer my question.

The article itself answers your question. Try rereading it.

[Pierre]

The Nation back in 1998/1999 or so did a piece on boxing with discussion from Joyce Carol Oates, Norman Mailer, etc on boxing, and about how the health risks are wed to financial exploitation of fighters who are matched unfairly against stronger and more powerful fighters by promoters, etc, and not supported well in health issues over and after their careers.

[Shmarya]

Yes, all true. But that was before brain scans were common. We now can see the damage and predict the level of dementia before it appears.

[fakewoodnj]

yaakov osdoba is not a rov he is a sem teacher. a 22 year old married girl can hold the same job. how does that make him a qualifies authority?. Sid Leiman, a professor of Jewish history, also not a qualified person to pasken. and you are not either so again which rov paskened that its not ok. further i would like to know if he asked a rabbi and what his logic is for allowing it if he did.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

It doesnt say in the article that he is chabad. Can anyone show me this with a source. IF so which chabad yeshivah?

I suppose his first drashah will be "hayadayim, yedeh yaacov, v' hakol kol Yaacov"

You got to admit, that has evertything covered.

[fakewoodnj]

y

[Shmarya]

What about obese rabbis, who chain smoke, get no exercise, and eat diets high in fat and cholesterol? Is there a ban on that? I believe more people get brain damage from M.I.s and strokes than from professional boxing.

Most poskim hold smoking is forbidden.

Eating food that cause illness is also forbidden, but tempered with halakha's fear of limiting already restricted food choices. In other words, you should not eat it, but…

Obesity itself is an illness, not a lifestyle choice. That illness should be treated and managed to the best of one's ability. But that does not mean obese people doing this will become thin or stay thin if they do lose weight – at least this is true with the current state of medical science.

[Pierre]

Medical issues aside, I have a harder time with overzealous use of concepts like "if it isn't a clear violation of Halacha, it's still somehow a violation of the spirit of halacha". Who really, really describes what the spirit of the law is or means and THEN who makes it authoritative? Someone who knows the inside and outside of the suggested action or behavior, or a rabbi who only knows what he's willing to see or hear about it, or rely on other, often - self-appointed - authorities to inform them? Suburban parents are willing to throw their kids into various sports and activities thoroughly quantified as being very dangerous, but discourage them from shooting sports, which have in proportion among the LOWEST of injuries and deaths. Any gun is a symbol more than tool for many Americans, and as a result, myth (and "spirit of the law"...), has more authority than stam statistical facts.

[fakewoodnj]

another point i wanted to make is that just because he is learning smicha (chabad slang) doesnt mean he will get it.

[Shmarya]

yaakov osdoba is not a rov he is a sem teacher. a 22 year old married girl can hold the same job. how does that make him a qualifies authority?…………

The Chofetz Chaim ran a grocery store, a job a woman – his wife – also held and that almost any 12 year old girl could do. Does that mean the Chafetz Chaim wasn't a rabbi?

And Shneur Zalman [Sid] Leiman is not a posek – but he certainly knows far, far more about the history of halakha (and probably actual halakhic practice) than the "rabbi" giving Foreman smicha.

That said, I'll turn your question around. What poskim permit professional boxing? Can you name any? You can't.

[Pierre]

How many professional boxers permit poskening?? Well?...(I kid, I kid)...

[itchiemayer]

I am bothered by the moniker "part-time" Rabbinical student.

[fakewoodnj]

i asked the same question and i will ask who gave permission. i happen to know some people he knows and i will let you know. my point was that he is not a qualified competent rabbi and neither is sid.

[rabbidw]

Again, what other activities would you ban on the grounds of danger? Whether professional or recreational? Second I learnt with Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg. Third, when halacha move into nonritual matters it requires an expertise in the matter under discussion as well as the halachs. When Rav Moshe Feinstein ZTL' issued is psak allowing heart transplants, it was because he spent a substantial number of hours with a Doctor, known to me personally, who reviewed the medical science behind brain death as opposed to cessation of breathing, or heart beating.

You might know the halachic parameters necessary to outlaw boxing, but do you know how boxing compares with football? soccer? basketball? Again, we are talking about earning a living. Can you take a job that requires you to go to Columbia? Nicaragua? Can you enlist in the US army? What about the Isreali army.
Life is full of risks and NO rabbi cis an epert on everything, even if he tells you that he is. The closest thing we have to a Posek who might be familiar with the halachi aspects of boxing is Moshe Tendler. He also might know more than you about the problems of heath care in America. At the least he has a son who is an MD who he can consult with. What expertise do you have?

[Shmarya]

Rabbi Tendler forbids boxing, I believe. Ask him.

The issue is blows to the head, which means football and professional ice hockey and combat sports are the problematic sports.

As for accepting risk, I realize this might be a bit of a stretch for you, but here goes. Does a Jew have the right to injure another person just because the other person accepted the risk? Can a Jew injure himself because he "accepted" the risk?

The latter question is discussed in medical ethics halakha, and there is an actual formula for calculating acceptable risks.

Professional boxing far exceeds the allowable risk, meaning it would be forbidden l'chatchila.

Ask Rabbi Tendler. He'll explain it to you.

As for Rabbi Scheinberg, the man who claimed that without penetration there is no child abuse – and therefore it is forbidden to call police or child protection services, don't ask him anything. The man is a shoteh vadai.

[itchiemayer]

Rabbi Scheinberg's Father in law, R' Yaakov Yosef Herman of "All for the Boss" fame, was a fan of boxing, and attended some matches. He stopped this "vice" when he took his wife once, and she hated it. This can be found in the original version of the book, but not the newer, whitewashed editions of the book.

[al Farabi]

Shmarya, you win on a technical knockout - well argued!

[rabbidw]

I last studied with Tav scheinberg almost 40 years ago. I take no responsibility for anything he has done since, nor do I look at him as my Posek. I have found one rule in life. The less a person knows the more he thinks he knows. The more a person knows the more able he is to see the other side of the argument. I realize that you are running a blog, and of course you are entitled to your opinion, but not everyone who dares to disagree with you is a blithering idiot.
The interesting question regarding boxing involves not the risk to oneself, but the risk of inflicting injury on your opponent. I would suspect, without any research, that the answer might depend on whether the opponent is Jewish, but I really do not know.
A lot of questions are coming up now because Jews are participating in Society to an unprecedented degree. As this continues, both here and in Israel, halacha will have to meet new challenges. How does one keep Shabos on the moon? In interstellar space? There are going to be gray areas which will be worked out over time. There will be those who will not want to deal with these questions because they feel committed Jews should not be involved in soubtful matters and thase who feel that Judaism can deal with any problem.
Lastly, there is a difference between l'chatchillah and be'dieved, preferably and if you must. I would agree that boxing is not the career of choice for a nice Jewish boy, but neither was Prime Minister of Egypt but you never see Joseph resigning from the job.

[WoolSilkCotton]

In boxing, the goal is to cause a concussion.

Other sports, even those with a lot of contact and potential for injury, at least don't intend on inflicting injury as a goal.

Itchie, maybe Chabad will soon offer on-line smicha programs, where you only have to show up once for a Mountain Dew party. This is in addition to the part-time rabbinical ordination program.

There may even be a smicha 'app' for your i-phone.

[pierre]

Woolsilkcotton...look up boxing on wikipedia at least. There would be no system of points if quantified, doctor-adjured concussions were the means of scoring. now THATS a role Nice Newish Doctors could have in boxing.

[nobody]

""I don't think it's even a debate among rabbis," said Sid Leiman, a professor of Jewish history at Brooklyn College. "Rabbis would look unkindly on [boxing]; if it's not against Jewish law, it's certainly against the spirit of Jewish law." "

If so, why not ask an actual rabbi instead of Sid what's his name?

[Chabadnik Attorney]

"The reason Foreman and Salita can still fight and be Chabad rabbinical students is, I believe, related to how Matisyahu was able to stand on stage before non-Jewish audiences wearing a kapote and black hat and sing as revelers formed mosh pits and the like – whatever gets Chabad (or a particular corner of Chabad) good publicity becomes permitted, because the greater "good" of promoting Menachem Mendel Schneerson and fundraising trump the "minor" halakhas that prohibit or strongly discourage such behavior."

That makes alot of sense. I never understood how Matisyahu could claim to be Chabad. Many Lubavitchers were not happy with this claim. I have notices some Lubavitchers tend to want to associate with success. I think they believe it makes them successful or put them in a class of successful people.

There is ofcourse another reason that would be allowed to continue in a Baal Teshuvah program. The program does not want to turn them away and hopes if they will continue, they will do teshuvah.

[joe]

Chabadnik Attorney said: "That makes a lot of sense. I never understood how Matisyahu could claim to be Chabad."

For the same reason you "claim to be Chabad", Chabadnik Attorney. At least Matisyahu didn't claim to speak for Chabad.

[joe]

Hey, morons, has any of you ever heard of 'special circumstances', 'hefsed meruboh', 'bediavad', etc., etc.?

Foreman is not some abstract case. He is a specific person, with a specific set of circumstances and it is up to him to consult an appropriate rabbinic authority that can rule in his particular situation. It is not something that gets decided by obscure seminary teaches, newspaper articles and mentally unstable bloggers.

[joe]

Sorry to say this, but if the Foreman quotes are accurate (and I hope they are not), he sounds like he already got knocked around too many times. But if the damage is already done, there is no point in barring him from boxing.

[rjw]

Joe.. Good point.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Joe: I concede that I don't speak for Chabad. When I use the term "we" instead of I, I am referring to people who I associate with, that Identify as being Chabad Chasidim, and share common views with me. I refer to the colloquial "we" that have shared the same experiences. That we has shared a different experience and understanding of Chabad thought and ideals that you (thats the colloquial "you") ascribe to Chabad.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Joe: I don't see how you can think that there is a Halachic exception that would allow any specific individual to pursue a career in boxing. Although, I do agree that is up to him to explore with his Rav.

[steve]

Wasn't Reish Lakish a professional wrestler?

Yea, I think he once fought Gorilla Monsoon.

[A. Nuran]

David Mendoza, a Sephardic Londoner, was one of the fathers of scientific boxing. In ancient times Jews were known for being avid wrestlers. And wrestling was a lot rougher then.

Smoking, drinking, overeating and excessive caffeine consumption are all at least as bad as boxing. We don't see them getting the same flak.

It's all about idolatry - making G-d over in one's own image.

[Shmarya]

Smoking, drinking, overeating and excessive caffeine consumption are all at least as bad as boxing.

Smoking is very bad, as is excessive drinking.

But you have to make a distinction between a compulsion or addiction, which a person cannot control (or cannot adequately control) and professional boxing.

Past that, we know a lot more about brain damage today than we did in Mendoza's time. To assert that we should do what Mendoza did simply because he did it, disregarding the actual medical and scientific facts, is a very weak argument. It also is not supported halakhicly.

[critical_minyan]

the whole thing is silly. the newspaper knows jewish boxer story sells papers.
however, there is only so long, you can write a story that basically says, "wow there is jew who boxes". so now they need a new angle, which is, "some jews say boxing is bad."

[Shlomo]

I think the worst part is not the danger to his own health that seems comparable to smoking which is bad for you and people around you and but for which there is no absolute ban for people who already are committed smokers (remember he already was a boxer).
To me the real issue is how he become a Rabbi (or learn to be one) with everything that means and set a good example, teach morals and Judaism etc and still continue boxing whose principle aim is to hurt another human being

[Mr. Apikorus]

Did the rabbis tell Benny Leonard that? Barney Ross? Mike Rossman?

[Mr. Apikorus]

My Great-Uncle Pete was a nationally ranked bantamweight boxer as a young man. He wasn't the least bit religious so I don't think he cared what the rabbis thought about anything, including how he chose to make a living. (He ended up being the head buyer in his brother's dress shop in Jersey City.)

That being said, I wish professional boxers wear headgear like amateurs do. It breaks my heart what happened to Muhammad Ali and Jerry Quarry. But if that's the way you chose to make a living, so be it.

We'll see the same thing happening with pro football, now that 250-pound linemen weigh 350, and 190-pound running backs weigh 245. A 350-pounder running into you exerts double the force of a 250-pounder.

No, the idea of boxing isn't to cause a concussion (most fights are won on points), and neither is the idea of football (it's to take your opponent out of the play), but both sports cause more than their share.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Bochur (apologies Simon & Garfunkel):

I am just a poor Jew though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of tchotkes, such are promises.
All lies and jest, still a rabbi hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmmm

When I left my home and my family, I's no more than a bochur
In the company of chassidim
In the quiet of the beit midrash,
runnin' scared, laying low,
Seeking out the Frummer quarters, where the black hat people go,
Looking for the places only they would know.

Oy yoyoy...

Asking only Rubashkin wages, I come lookin' for a job,
But I get no offers,
Just a come-on from the schnorrers on 13th Avenue.
I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome
I gave tzedakah there.

Oy yoyoy...

And I'm laying out my Shabbos clothes and wishing I was gone,
goin' home
Where the Crown Heights, Brooklyn winters aren't bleedin' me, leadin' me,
goin' home.

In the clearing stands a bochur, and a learner by his trade
And he carries the reminders of every blatt that laid him down or stumped him
'Til he cried out in his anger and his shame
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the frummie still remains.

Oy yoyoy...

[WoolSilkCotton]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4685329

The death of junior featherweight Francisco "Paco" Rodriguez on Sunday night will not have been in vain.

Two days after Rodriguez was knocked out by Teon Kennedy in the 10th round of a ferocious fight for a regional title at Philadelphia's famed Blue Horizon, Rodriguez died from a brain injury he suffered in the bout.

His death, however, will save the lives of at least eight people, including his uncle. Rodriguez's family announced that it was donating multiple organs from the fallen fighter, including a kidney to his uncle.

[itchiemayer]

Yochanan HaLevi - Typical excellent work!
Mr. A - Mike Rossman is not Jewish, although he did wear the Israeli flag on his trunks. What about rasslin? I wonder if Bill Goldberg got a heter to rassle. Actually, while he was Bar Mitzvahd in Tulsa, OK, his family was reform and fairly irreligious.

[libby in the hood]

Yochanan Lavie: Excellent!!

P.S. to all at FM Happy Thanksgiving to those of you who celebrate a great American holiday....and Donny won Dancing with the Stars. I know it is corny but I love Donny!

[Mr. Green]

"Obesity itself is an illness, not a lifestyle choice. That illness should be treated and managed to the best of one's ability."
I cannot imagine why Shmarya wrote the above crap. People are fat because they eat too much; it's as simple as that. Too medicalize the fact that some people like to pig out may be politically correct, but for 90% of fat people it is crap. Frum Jews should not eat pig - and should not eat like pigs. So why did Shmarya write this nonsense? Could it be that he is . . . ? By Shmarya's reasoning smoking could also be defined as an illness. Well, I smoke (cigars) and the reason I do it is because I like to smoke. Period. Any posek who holds that smoking is forbidden has never smoked a MonteCristo No. 4. People eat too much because they like to eat.

[william e emba]

Mr Green's comments about obesity are grossly ignorant.

Many people are indeed obese because they pig out too much. But not all, and probably not most.

There is in fact now strong evidence that much obesity is directly disease-induced, from changing your metabolism (as in, your body responds by thinking you need more energy reserves the better to fight your next illness) to common viruses that have been caught changing stem cells into fat cells.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Itchie, Libby. Good Yom Tov.

[R]

Talking of frum Jewish boxers, check this one out http://www.amirsfans.co.uk/news/082/khan-to-face-salita-on-5th-december

[A E ANDERSON]

Resh Lakish was a gladiator, not a boxer.

There's a homoerotic aggadita is Bava Mesia where {the sublimely muscled) Resh Lakish gets excited over (the notoriously feminine-appearing) R Yohanan, and pole vaults over the River Jordan on his "lance" (being a representation of his phallus or something).

So I once heard at a JTS seminar. And here's a reference to it in "Wresting with God and Man: Homosexuality in Judaism" which has more on this and other homoerotic episodes in the Torah, written and _Oral_.

(http://www.bandung2.co.uk/Books/Files/Sex/Wrestling%20with%20God%20and%20Men%20-%20Homosexuality%20in%20the%20Jewish%20Tradition.pdf)

[K.M.]

Shmarya, what about the Rasslin' Rabbi, Raphael Halperin, who was famous (or infamous) in the 50s and 60s. In his book he writes that he got a clear p'sak from his Rabbi (the name of the rabbi eludes me, but he was a famous one) which allowed him to bodybuild and do other physical activitied like box and wrestle proffesionaly. (I do not know if his book has been translated to english but its an excellent read if you understand Hebrew)

[Mr. Green]

"There is in fact now strong evidence that much obesity is directly disease-induced, from changing your metabolism (as in, your body responds by thinking you need more energy reserves the better to fight your next illness) to common viruses that have been caught changing stem cells into fat cells."
Hey, Mr. Wm. E., what you write is gross blah blah blah. If you want to lose weight you should stop eating. Don't shorten your intestines, lengthen your brains. Stop with the Myth of Medical Fatness.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Resh Lakish was a gladiator, not a boxer.

Was he glad he ate her?

[william e emba]

Mr Green:

What I wrote is the briefest of summaries of current scientific understanding of obesity. It's not a myth.

Self-willed stupidity, as you manifest, however, is not medical.

[shneerhere]

Let's see.... guns could be dangerous. Are Jews allowed to shoot or instruct shooting? Of course. An accidental discharge would have a more immediate detrimental effect on ones health than brain damage, thought Shmarya is correct, with brain scans we can measure the damage.

I once asked a Rav if I could do pullups on Shabbat. His answer was that I could do them, preferably without breaking a sweat, it would not be a technical violation but, as alluded to above, could be violating 'the spirit' of Shabbat. I find it a very fuzzy area. I break much more of a sweat walking to shul on Saturday then performing pullups. I dunno......

[Jesse]

Rabbi Osdoba is more than qualified MR. FakewoodNJ hes a Rabbi in Bais Midrash, and seminary, on top of that he works for the bais din of CH and has Shimish.... i asked him why he gave an interview and he said that he didnt know they were writing a piece and that they were going to use his words to condemn another YID... he still feels bad about it... the reporter called up the bais din and asked for a pisak about boxing with out telling what it was for

[Howard]

What I can say is do what you have to do for the Lord and you. You maybe chosen to be a rabbi. We are humans we commit mistakes but the Lord is forgiving, He still accepts us. One good example that I see is saint Paul. At first he pursues those who believe in Christ Jesus, but later on he is called and becomes one of the believers and leaders of the church.

http://www.muhammad-ali.co.uk