Orthodox Come To Rubashkin's Defense

Rubashkin’s defenders and sympathizers insist that Agriprocessors was hardly unique among slaughterhouses in its hiring of illegal aliens. They also argue that many allegations against the company have yet to be substantiated.

Orthodox Come To Rubashkin’s Defense
by Julie Wiener • Associate Editor, NY Jewish Week

Sholom Rubashkin, the manager of the now-infamous Agriprocessors kosher slaughterhouse in Iowa, has only completed one of two federal trials, and already — barring a successful appeal — he is looking at a life in prison.

The prospect of such severe punishment — for a man who many credit with making affordable kosher food available in previously underserved markets and for contributing generously to tzedakah, particularly to the Chabad community — has some Orthodox Jews complaining that the kosher meat tycoon is more victim than criminal.

At the same time, liberal Jewish groups that have been critical of the company’s practices — particularly its alleged mistreatment of workers — are hoping the conviction prompts better business practices in the kosher industry and Jewish nonprofit sector.

Rubashkin, was convicted last week on 86 bank fraud charges that could bring a prison sentence of hundreds of years. He hasn’t been sentenced yet, and his second trial — on 72 immigration charges — is scheduled to begin on Dec. 2.

Agriprocessors, then the largest kosher slaughterhouse in the United States, was the subject of a federal immigration raid in May 2008, in which 389 illegal workers were arrested.

But for years before the raid, the Rubashkin family-owned company was a magnet for criticism. In 2004, the animal rights group PETA released undercover videos taken at Agriprocessors showing seemingly inhumane treatment of cattle and potential violations of kosher slaughter practices, and in 2008, the group released another video, this time showing violations of the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act. In 2006, the Forward newspaper ran an exposé on the working conditions, alleging lack of safety training, a slew of workplace injuries and pay as low as $6.25 per hour. The company has also faced criticism for its environmental practices.

Rubashkin’s defenders and sympathizers, however, insist that Agriprocessors was hardly unique among slaughterhouses in its hiring of illegal aliens. They also argue that many allegations against the company have yet to be substantiated, and — while they acknowledge that Rubashkin is guilty of some crimes — they describe him as a good-hearted man who was simply in over his head.

To Nathan Lewin, a prominent lawyer who has defended many high-profile Orthodox clients, including Agriprocessors in previous cases — and who has an op-ed in this newspaper — the main mistake the company made was not responding “to initial allegations as forcefully as they should have, both on questions of kashrut and worker mistreatment. That left him open to what ended up being a criminal process that examined his conduct very meticulously.”

While Rubashkin “did things that were wrong,” Lewin said, “I think in a fair and balanced appraisal of what this man did, considering both the pluses and minuses of his conduct, he did not deserve to be subjected to criminal sanctions or go to jail.”

Rabbi Menachem Genack, the CEO of the Orthodox Union’s kashrut division, has been critical of the Rubashkins at different points, calling for Rubashkin to step down as CEO of the plant after the raid. However, he sees the conviction as “very, very sad.”

“I’m very conflicted about it,” Rabbi Genack said. “On one hand, the OU had expressed a lack of confidence in his leadership of the company and asked him to step down. But the truth is, on a human level, the way he’s portrayed [by prosecutors and critics] — there seems to me a certain disconnect. The portrayal like this is [Bernard] Madoff, and he should spend the rest of his life in jail doesn’t make sense to me.

“This was a business that cared about kosher, that famously helped a lot of poor people, but that grew from a mom-and-pop operation to way beyond their capacity and because of that got into significant legal issues.”

“He may deserve to go to jail,” Rabbi Genack added, but the sentences being anticipated “seem much too harsh and unbalanced.”

Menachem Lubinsky, the founder of the Kosherfest trade show and a marketing consultant to many kosher companies, said, “My take is [the Rubashkins] aren’t malicious people,” but added that their business practices were “sloppy.”
The conviction and scores of charges against Rubashkin “doesn’t jive with the character of people who build communities and give to charity,” he said. “It’s almost like a paradox here.”

However, Lubinsky does not anticipate the Rubashkin conviction or the closing of the slaughterhouse (which reopened under new ownership and the name Agri Star earlier this year) will have a larger impact on the kosher industry’s image.

“More stores are opening, more food is available,” he said. “There’s a level of maturity in the industry. I don’t think it will suffer because of one institution or individual. If there would’ve been a backlash [against kosher], it would’ve been when the PETA video came out and it didn’t happen then either.”

On the blogosphere, many fervently Orthodox Jews were rallying to Rubashkin’s defense — and criticizing Jewish organizations for not doing more to help him. Herschel Tzig, a blogger who describes his “Circus Tent” site’s purpose as providing “a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in the blogosphere,” posted a critique of the Orthodox Union for not coming to Rubashkin’s aid, although he did not state what the organizations should have done.

“The idea that bank fraud can put a man away for possibly the rest of his life while mass murders — think 9/11 detainees — may walk free and have Government appointed lawyers and advocacy groups, speaks volumes about the situation in these United States today,” he wrote, adding “WHERE WAS THE ORTHODOX UNION IN ALL OF THIS? WHY WERE THEY NOWHERE TO BE FOUND? Why was it OK for them to profit from Rubashkin all this time, despite pressure from the [Modern Orthodox]/Conservadox community to remove the Hekhsher — yet not have one nice word to say about him when he needed it most?!”

Of course not everyone in the Jewish community is rushing to Rubashkin’s defense — or even offering him any sympathy.

Shortly after the conviction was announced last week, the Conservative movement’s Hekhser Tzedek Commission — a group that has been very critical of Agriprocessors and that is attempting to create an ethical/social justice certification to accompany kosher products — issued a statement saying the conviction “delivers both justice and a heavy heart to those of us who champion the cause of ethical kashrut.”

According to the Hekhsher Tzedek statement, “There are tragedies within tragedies in the story of the fall of the house of Rubashkin, the worst of which might be the deaf ear of the Rubashkin family turned towards those who tried to prevent the collapse. We were at the epicenter of those who repeatedly reached out to the family. Yet as the investigation and trial wore on, it became clear that the deafness was a direct result of the Rubashkin family’s flagrant disregard for the law and ethical behavior.”

Shmuly Yanklowitz, the founder and president of Uri L’Tzedek, an Orthodox social justice organization that launched a boycott against Agriprocessors shortly after the May 2008 raid, said he sees the Rubashkin conviction as “a historical turning point” and criticized Rubashkin’s defenders for caring more about “protecting the leader of the company” than the plight of his workers, many of whom are living in poverty.

The scandal and trials “have created a tremendous divide in how we think about kashrut,” Yanklowitz said.

According to Yanklowitz, whose group has created Tav HaYosher, a system for holding kosher restaurants and grocery stores accountable to certain labor practices, the Agriprocessors saga has spurred many observant Jews to consider “in a significant way the ethical values that come with consumption” of kosher food.

Herschel Tzig published a post last year claiming I lived in Rubashkin's basement for three years, took immense amounts of charity from him, used his car, and ate his food.

And now, Tzig claimed, I had turned on this kind man who helped me.

I pointed out to Tzig that I had never lived in Rubashkin's house, never taken charity from him, never used his car, and had never taken handouts from him. I also pointed out this was completely verifiable and told him how he could easily verify it.

Tzig refused to do that and he refused to take down his post – which was circulated in emails and on Chabad blogs and was used to whip up hatred against me.

That Rubashkin's son and sometime spokesperson Getzel, who clearly knows Tzig is lying, did not correct Tzig – or that the Rabbis Feller, who also know Tzig is lying and who were asked to correct those lies but refused, or that others close to Chabad's leader Rabbi Yudel Krinsky (my former friend) who also knew but remained silent, shows how truly devoid of honesty and ethics Chabad is.

When Rubashkin was convicted, Tzig sent me an email asking me if I was happy:

when's the party at your house?
are you giving a kiddush this week?

I told him I didn't understand him – but I did.

In the narrow straits that pass for haredi minds, you are either with them or against them, in the camp or outside it, good or bad. 

When you're outside, you are an Other, and in haredi thought, lying about an Other not only is not a sin – it's probably a mitzva.

Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin – despite his crimes – is the consummate haredi insider. He (mostly) stole from the goyyim and 'gave' to the Jews, and he wouldn't cooperate with the government, to boot.

Years from now – even if Rubashkin is convicted of more crimes, even if his father and brothers and other family members are convicted, even if his abuse of poor immigrant workers is undeniable – Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin will be a Chabad and haredi hero.

And what of the people who stood up for those abused workers or who cried out against Rubashkin's horrific abuse of animals or who simply object to Jewish ritual objects, including food, being linked to abuse and crime?

They will be what Tzig called me: mosers, snitches.

Because you're either in or you're out, a Jew in good haredi standing or an Other, a guy who knows when to turn a blind eye to crime or a snitch.

It is the haredi Omerta.

It's the same Omerta that protects child sexual abusers but penalizes their victims. It protects Rubashkin, too.

It is a rot that eats at the foundations of Judaism, and it is destroying us from within.

Comments

[harold]

... claiming I lived in Rubashkin's basement for three years, took immense amounts of charity from him, used his car, and ate his food.

Nonsense, everyone knows that it is in your mother's basement that you live in.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

"In the narrow straits that pass for haredi minds, you are either with them or against them, in the camp or outside it, good or bad."

Certain jews realize that at the end of day all we have is each other, our family our omerta. Jews who do not realize this are can't be trusted when its between us and the world.

Until they found themselves on the last trains to Aushwitz the jews that had converted to Chritianity, the ones who had accepted the pure way of the Germans sang praises to the motherland.

You call us paranoid we say you are in denial. Today the world finds legal excuses to persecute us. It goes after the unsympatetic the "mafia bosses" among us. Tomorrow they will go after us all. If you deny this or ignore this then you deny the history of our people.

There has never been a nation no matter how civilized - and the Germans were the most civilized, honest, ethical, refined mannered etc etc etc (ALL THE ATTRIBUTES YOU HOPE FOR US TO ATTAIN - THESE ARE YOUR ROLE MODELS) - that hasn't tried to expell, enslave, steal from us, torcher us or murder us.

Wake up !!! You may think you are against us, but in the end you will be considered by them (whose culture you emulate) to be with us.

[PishPosh]

"Rubashkin’s defenders and sympathizers insist that Agriprocessors was hardly unique among slaughterhouses in its hiring of illegal aliens."

What the hell??? So dina de malchuta does not come into play because other companies are not makpid enough to watch the paperwork and follow the law???

Its for people like Ruby that the phrase, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"
was coined.

Only a fool goes into business without educating himself on the ropes, Salary and Wage and Labor Laws, HR, Workmans Comp and hiring the right minds to help with these matters.. The brains to go down to the slaughter line and see that the meat is being compassionatley processed.

Im starting to think that Shechita today is not like it was done in ye olde times.
They slaughter as they needed, so cows didnt sit surrounded constantly by death therefore were not likley to fight and struggle like they do nowadays.

If your not permitted to muzzle an ox tramping grain how can you allow a cow or other to reside on another side of the wall where the blood of its species is being splilt daily and fouling the air.

No wonder they dont go easy nowadays but squirm and fidget, no doubt treifing up the shechita process restraints notwithstanding.

Shecitah is a means to an end, not the end itself. If today cows are better off being stunned before throat cutting then thats what shechita needs to be.

[libby in the hood]

Chabadnik Attorney: Does that mean that we have to act or tolerate actions that illegal and immoral? I don't care how the deck is stacked against the Jews. It doesn't give Jews the right to act immorally. Lying, cheating, mistreatment of others including animals is immorality. The Germans thought that the Jews where sub-human but isn't that what Chabad thinks of non-Jews?

[Chabadnik Attorney]

PISH POSH: You guys think Chabad is out of touch with reality. DO YOU THINK THE GOVT GIVES A RATS ___ ABOUT KASHRUS. Why do you mix up Rubashkins guilt under jewish law, with him facing 15 life sentences by the childrem of Acev?

WE JEWS MAY HAVE OUR PROBLEMS BUT WE ARE IDIOTS IF WE THINK WE WILL FIND OUR SALVATION IN THE GOVT.

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN - ROME. GREECE. GERMANY. SPAIN.

The Jews in Germany were more comfortable, more a part of German society then will ever be here. LEARN FROM HISTORY

[Shmarya]

Certain jews realize that at the end of day all we have is each other, our family our omerta. Jews who do not realize this are can't be trusted when its between us and the world.

Until they found themselves on the last trains to Aushwitz the jews that had converted to Chritianity, the ones who had accepted the pure way of the Germans sang praises to the motherland.

You call us paranoid we say you are in denial. Today the world finds legal excuses to persecute us. It goes after the unsympatetic the "mafia bosses" among us. Tomorrow they will go after us all. If you deny this or ignore this then you deny the history of our people.

There has never been a nation no matter how civilized - and the Germans were the most civilized, honest, ethical, refined mannered etc etc etc (ALL THE ATTRIBUTES YOU HOPE FOR US TO ATTAIN - THESE ARE YOUR ROLE MODELS) - that hasn't tried to expell, enslave, steal from us, torcher us or murder us.

Wake up !!! You may think you are against us, but in the end you will be considered by them (whose culture you emulate) to be with us.

Posted by: Chabadnik Attorney | November 17, 2009 at 08:35 PM

This is perhaps the sickest thing you've written. And, sadly, it's Chabad theology to a T.

[Shmarya]

The Jews in Germany were more comfortable, more a part of German society then will ever be here. LEARN FROM HISTORY

I think you need to learn from history. Clearly, you're ignorant of it.

[krewz]

"and had never taken handouts from him"

you ate in his house for countless shabbos meals. he didnt invite you because he was a mean, evil man!
Everyone knows that Sholom is a nice man, even at his trial all the governments witnesses said he was a nice man "he was too good".

Fact: the Rubashkin Family was good to you in Minnesota.

now you're denying it, and trying to destroy their lives

[Chabadnik Attorney]

LIBBY - NO IT MEANS THAT WE DON'T LOOK TO THE GOVT AS OUR SALVATION -

SHMARYA - THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT - SICK BUT ALL TRUE - NOT ONE IOTA OF FALSITY

[Shmarya]

you ate in his house for countless shabbos meals.

That would be three, I believe.

Fact: the Rubashkin Family was good to you in Minnesota.

now you're denying it, and trying to destroy their lives

No. I'm reporting the truth.

[Shmarya]

SHMARYA - THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT - SICK BUT ALL TRUE - NOT ONE IOTA OF FALSITY

You're so ignorant of history it's astounding.

What you write is moronic – and false.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

"The Germans thought that the Jews where sub-human but isn't that what Chabad thinks of non-Jews?"

Do you realize that Chabad is the ONLY orthodox group that reaches to non-Jews to teach the Noachide laws? Do you know that other groups complaint to Chabad about the bitul Torah in wasting time doing so? Do you know that the Rebbe OBM very often taught us at Chabad to reach out to non-jews in business and at every opportunity? You know nothing ab out Chabad. You are an ignorant bigot.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Who cares where Shmarya ate. The Rubashkins broke the law end of story. The question is WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE SHMARYA THINK THE GOVT IS THEIR SAVIOR

[Chabadnik Attorney]

SHMARYA WHAT ARE TALKING ABOUT : A 1/2 SECOND GOOGLE SEARCH WILL TELL YOU HOW INTEGRATED JEWS WERE IN GERMAN SOCIETY

FOR EXAMPLE

Far from being a drain on Germany, Jewish people were very active contributors to the German economy. Hitler was disturbed and angry that many Jews held high-paying jobs and were contributing to the economy in such a way that they became very important.

Jewish people were very involved in the music industry, the media, banking, and a whole range of other industries. Many were teachers, psychologists and doctors. When they were forced to emigrate, currency regulations and other measures prevented most of them from taking their wealth. Many rich Jewish families found themselves taken into custody so that their wealth could be confiscated.

[libby in the hood]

Chabadnik Attorney: I don't look to the government for sh**. I have look at myself in the mirror everyday. How can immoral criminals and those that defend them look at themselves in the mirror? It is easy because they have no conscience. They are simply sociopaths!!

[Chabadnik Attorney]

SHMARYA - Are really unaware that Jews were comfortable in German society and would have never perdicted the Holocasust in a million years> ????

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Libby: I am really not arguing with you here. I am explaining the reason Haredi jew have formed a culture not trusting in Govt.

[Shmarya]

1. There have been "nations" that did not expel us.

2. Jews are far more integrated in America than we were in Germany.

3. Your grasp of Jewish and world history is on the level of a child.

[krewz]

its not about where he ate... its about the fact that he denies he had anything really to ever do with that family

fact is that he was a regular at the rubashkins he had meals there on shabbos and even played with their children.

I heard a rumor at some point in time that he had a crush on one of the rubashkin girls (I remember reading that in the comments somewhere in this blog I just cant find it.)

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Truth is that other calling me names. Shmarya cannot refute one iota of what I am saying.

[libby in the hood]

Now I get it!!! One cannot engage Chabadnik Attorney on anything or he/she will unleash his/her fists of fury on the keyboard. If you think I'm an ignorant bigot so be it. This ignorant bigot is going to sleep because tomorrow I have to go to a job where I'm not stealing from anyone. I guess I don't work in Crown Heights!

[Shmarya]

fact is that he was a regular at the rubashkins he had meals there on shabbos and even played with their children.

False.

I heard a rumor at some point in time that he had a crush on one of the rubashkin girls (I remember reading that in the comments somewhere in this blog I just cant find it.)

False.

For a brief time, I used eat Shabbos lunch at Yossie Gurarie's house. I might have done it at most 10 times, but I think it was closer to 6 or 7.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

1. There have been "nations" that did not expel us. (Yea Germany - they murdered us) (Oh I forgot spain they converted us)

2. Jews are far more integrated in America than we were in Germany. (Says who _ Even if it that were true _ we were plenty integrated in to Germany - I have a friend whose family is German - even moved back post war - he disagrees with you.

3. Your grasp of Jewish and world history is on the level of a child. (Than yours is infantile)

[Shmarya]

You really need to study a it and you'll see you're wrong.

What groups was first expelled from Spain? Do you know?

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Does anyone on this blog think that a second Holocaust in America is not possible?

(And to those who don't know - it IS NOT a Chabad opinion to harp on the Holocaust - THE REBBE OBM - Said that "America is a nation of kindness" I did not get any of this from Chabad - I got it from my fourth grade after public school hebrew teacher - who was a survivor )

[Shmarya]

1. Please answer my question.

2. Could a Holocaust or other horrible occurrence happen to us in America?

Yes.

But stealing from poor immigrants, committing bank fraud, screaming antisemitism as a defense and thumbing your nose at US law only makes something like that more, not less, likely.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

I don't what group was first expelled from Spain. Maybe the Moors. What is the point?

Do you still ascribe to basic Chumash and Rashi? Halacha Galu viYodua Acev soneh es Yakov?

[Chabadnik Attorney]

"But stealing from poor immigrants, committing bank fraud, screaming antisemitism as a defense and thumbing your nose at US law only makes something like that more, not less, likely."

Maybe it does. Maybe ot doesn't. By that logic, one could find reason and assign blame to the Holy Jews who were sacrified.

Also it doesn't make sense, You are saying a Holocaust could happen but me some how bring it upon ourselves. The criminal behavior of jews will be their justification to skin us alive and use our fat for soap.

You think if just don't give them the excuse

[Shmarya]

Sigh.

1. Yes, the Moors.

2. Then the radical Muslims who threw out the Moors and started to persecute the Jews.

3. Then the Jews.

Except the first two groups were mostly killed or converted while the Jews were either converted or left alone until the Expulsion.

As for Eisav sonei Yaakov, I think you need to look past Chabad's undrstanding of Rashi and into the Halakha – which does N-O-T hold all or even most non-Jews hate Jews.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

In any event Shmarya have a good night. I am tying up you blog. Keep up the good work. Peace.

[Shmarya]

"But stealing from poor immigrants, committing bank fraud, screaming antisemitism as a defense and thumbing your nose at US law only makes something like that more, not less, likely."

Maybe it does. Maybe ot doesn't. By that logic, one could find reason and assign blame to the Holy Jews who were sacrified.

Also it doesn't make sense, You are saying a Holocaust could happen but me some how bring it upon ourselves. The criminal behavior of jews will be their justification to skin us alive and use our fat for soap.

You think if just don't give them the excuse

Do you think all antisemitism simply appears out of nowhere?

[concerned]

Many chabadniks consider what SMR did as wrong. We pray for him Leah and the family but he did wrong. His conviction is sad and a tragedy for his family, but he was convicted in a court of law, he will appeal and the judicial process will continue. So as much as someone may sympathized with the plight of an imprisoned Jew, being nice (and he was) or ignorant or trying to spread kosher food do not erase his legal issues and conviction. Some Chabad make him out to be a victim. OK, but with equal fervor please try to teach that being arrogant, sloppy or dumb about buisness is not good practice or good ethics. He was convicted, crying anti-semtism, witch hunt or we want our meat cheap are not reasonable grounds for appeal.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Thank you for the history. (Sincerely). I will look into the Halacha of Eisav sonei Yaakov.

I think may believe me that I have much respect for many non-jews. I think you can also understand the reason that many Jews stick togther through thick and thin. If this is causing us to suffer internally (and I agree it is) then lets work to solve the problems within. Whether a part of that is exposing them to the world or not I don't know, but I am not sure I have a good argument to the contrary.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Concerned, I totally agree. Thats not really the core issue here.

Shmarya - I don't think all hatred toward Jews is unjustified. I am talking about hatred that is unjustified or that is expressed in an unjustifiable manner.

[Shmarya]

So what Rubashkin did could cause hatred of Jews or could exacerbate existing hatred of Jews.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Concerned, part of what may direct people to rethink the core issues here is the followign questions: Why is a a sentence of 15 life terms being sought by the Govt? Would the Govt have brought the financial fraud case without the Raid? Did the govt come into the plant to rescue the illegal aliens workers or to arrest them?

The ethical issues that we as Jews are seeking to be addressed are not the cause of the Govt raid, the prosecution, the or the sought after sentence.

[Eric Grosser]

I think that in theory the holocaust could happen again anywhere, but Medinat Yisrael and tzahal make it much harder. At least we can put up a good fight now.

As I've mentioned repeatedly, Rabbi Rubashkin is a tremendous Baal Chesed, and I have experienced his chesed first hand. How can I sleep comfortably at night knowing where Rabbi Rubashkin is sleeping? How can I eat a 5 course Shabbos meal while Rabbi Rubashkin is lucky to get vegetables and grape juice. It's time for Am Yisrael to unite and scream out in protest for what "our" government is doing to this Baal Chesed.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Shmarya: What many of us do can cause hatred of Jews. Not the kind of hatred I am talking about.

Libby: I called you a bigot because you made a general statement about Chabad without knowing the facts behind the statement. Now when you comment about my nastey remark you ascribe it to me being Chabad, another action that indicates bigotry.

You would not likely make similar comments about African Americans.

I was incorrect to lash out against you and I apologize. I felt your statements were bigoted. You are probably a better person than me. I an sure you can agree that it is not right to make general statments about Chabad _ who the avergage Chabadnik would give his/her life for you in a second.

[Shmarya]

It's time for Am Yisrael to unite and scream out in protest for what "our" government is doing to this Baal Chesed.

Your "baal chesed" committed bank fraud, wire fraud and mail fraud, stole from his workers and abused them, and abused animals and the environment.

It's time am yisrael did some screaming about all that.

I also must say that I find it appalling that you show zero sympathy for the workers he stole from.

[Isa]

While you all are having a pissing match I would like to illustrate somebody I knew from the past...

There was this fellow in my Orthodox shul of old, Herbert Joshua[1904-2000] had a business producing food toppings and developed non-dairy ice cream. I was invited over to his house for Shabbos along with some other people a couple of times in the mid 1970s. He emigrated from Germany in 1937.

Fast Forward to 2003, I am unemployed but in a Technical College to get yet another technical degree. I have a lab partner in this class. His father worked for Herbert Joshua at Food Producers till it was sold to Beatrice Foods in the late 1970s. All the workers LOVED the guy, why? Because he gave with pay (!) ALL the Jewish holidays off providing the holidays occurred Monday thru Friday. Herbert Joshua did not work on Yom Tov and NEITHER did his workers. Herbert Joshua wore a kippa at work too.

So what sort of influence do you think Herbert Joshua had on his workers? Do you think for one moment that any of them would fall prey to anti-Semitic ravings? Maybe his workers would even stick up for their boss on occasion.

What if the opposite was true? Treated his workers as ‘sub-humans’ cheated them out of pay, force them to work extra without overtime , forced them to work on THEIR holidays (Xmas, Easter) etc, etc and etc. What sort of influence would such an evil boss have?

About Germany...
Jews were on the 'bottom of the Totem Pole'

Here in America consider what is underneath US Jews...

[Jakes]

Chabadnik Attorney:

If you, as a someone who is involved with Chabad, are so concerned about Jewish unity because we are all the same to our enemies, why then does Chabad not do more to include "half" Jews or Jews who are Jewish in accordance with Reform/Recon/Conservative, hell even MO traditions? The Nazis found them Jewish enough to gas...

[Yerachmiel Lopin (FrumFollies.wordpress.com)]

Try this thought experiment on SR's supporters.

Imagine his legal compliance and kashrut compliance were reversed. He was completely legal but his various offenses were against kashrut.

Story Line: Cows with punctured lungs were passed as kosher, nicked knives were the norm, salting was claimed but not performed, packaging liners had dairy components, etc.

Would this line work?

He just wanted to be a good citizen and deliver affordable meat. All his mistakes were inadvertant. In trying to keep kosher costs down he hired illegal costa rican shochtim. No one told him about the problems. The operation was just too large for him. He did fine with a Kosher hot dog stand.

Who would defend him from charges of fraudulently violating kosher laws. Who would say, government persecution.

Yep, the underlying issue is that government laws dont matter, especially not when he does right by us.

[IATroutfisher]

I just don't get you folks. I'm just a simple man for NE Iowa. We work hard, pay our bills, and treat our neighbors with respect.

Agriprocessors did none of that. They blew into town, defiled the enviroment, ignored the laws, exploited the poor and needy, took advantage of the good natured local population, and screamed "anti semite" when anyone complained.

Don't misunderstand my point: Some from Postville made lots of money when Agriprocessors was at its height (bankers, landowners, ect), but the general population watched their town descend into a cesspool of undocument workers, packed into substandard housing, with the local social services taking care of their basic needs.

The vast majority of you who even TRY to defend Agri have never been here. Why don't you swing into Postville some time? Stop at the shul, and do your thing, then spend the night in some of the quality housing Agriprocessors provided for it's workers. Spend a week trying to get by on $6/hr. Don't be upset when you get a paycheck for $50 after your work clothes, housing, and other assorted niceties are deducted form you paycheck. See how much quality food, clothing, and other necessities that it gets you and your family.

You who defend them make me sick. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Chosen people, my ass.

[HirshelTzig]

Shmarya

"pointing out?" is that all it takes?

is that acceptable in court as well?

[nachos]

Chabadnik Attorney:

My honest question to you is why you don't think G-d is in control of the situation? Doesn't a leaf not fall without G-d allowing it, yet you are implying that G-d is not in control of the situation?

If Shmarya was truly to blame for Shalom's downfall, his name would have been on a witness list.

The real people to blame for this travesty is the Chabad community. Nobody was willing to confront him forcefully and tell him what he was doing was wrong. I did, but because of that I am no longer a part of the community. However, my conscience is clean? Did the teachers in the school try to stop him from washing the money in the school's checking account? What about the manager of the grocery store? The Lubavitch community bears the responsibility for this travesty.
The Jewish community of Postville is suffering tremendously for not taking a stand for what is righteous. Just ask how many of them blew througth their savings and went into debt and could lose their houses.

I pray for Shalom and his family frequently. I pray that his eyes and heart get opened. What Shalom needs more than anything is to stop being defiant admit any wrong he has done and G-d handle the court process. That is only hope right now. He is going to lose on appeal. He needs to trust in Hashem and not these arrogant lawyers and Rabbis.

Peace to you!!! I am not trying to have another pissing contest with you right now.

[tanya]

Go, IA Troutfisher. Thank you for perspective, and perspective is sanity. Yes, thank you for setting it straight.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya

"pointing out?" is that all it takes?

is that acceptable in court as well?

You're a liar, Tzig.

And, yes, pointing that out is absolutely acceptable in court.

[HirshelTzig]

prove it.
I stand by my post until then.
sorry, Bob.

[Shmarya]

prove it.
I stand by my post until then.

Idiot.

You printed something false, did it intentionally, and refuse to check the facts.

That makes you liable, Tzig, both halakhicly and under US law.

Process that.

[HirshelTzig]

please do not resort to name calling.

[Shmarya]

Lets see.

You lied about me, defamed me and refuse to check facts.

I called you an idiot in response.

I think if you were to ask your attorney, he'd agree with me.

Process that.

[Jerome Soller]

I have been avoiding commenting on the Agriprocessors / Rubashkin discussion recently, as I think some of the discussion has devolved into Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude means when people derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others. I don't think it is healthy or productive. I believe that Hashem dealt justice, but believe that there were many innocents, including other members of that family (wives, children, etc.) that were hurt. Likewise, I sometimes believe that Shmarya goes too far, like when he posted information about the Agriprocessor management's houses.

I see that there is a discussion going back and forth about Shmarya's relationship with the Rubashkins in the past. 18 months ago, I met Chayala Gourarie when she visited Chabad in Salt Lake City. I discussed the Agriprocessors situation and Shmarya's blog with her. While I opposed the way Sholom, other members of the Rubashkin family, and Agriprocessors acted, I feel for Chayala and Yossie Gourarie and the impacted families. Anyway, Chayala mentioned that Shmarya used to eat Shabbos lunches with them. I won't split hairs whether it is 7, 10, or 20 times. I hope this dispels some false rumors on this site.

Jerome

[reuven sabel]

anybody who gloats about rubashkin being in jail is a jew hater. whether we believe he is guilty or not we should pray that he gets the lightest sentence legally possible.

[al Farabi]

When I read all of this, as a medical professional, it confirms my diagnosis that chabad adherents and defenders alike are in urgent need of psychiatric attention and management. there is some serious psychopathology out there!

[al Farabi]

So once you've eaten a meal in their house, you can't critize them? It's called reciprocity, it's a trick that all cults use, and it appears that it really does work! For more on this, read "Influence, the psychology of persuasion"

[The sane one]

It is the attitude and comments of people like Chabad Attorney that reaps the treatment he and other Jews love so much. Stop the high and mighty for awhile and see what happens. Shmarya is spot on with the comment "do you think anti-semetism just happens out of thin air" or something like that. Nope. The treatment of an individual or group is dependent on their treatment of other individuals or groups. If the crazies on all sides don't change the "attitudes" they are all fucked!!! And never forget the lessons of history. Might is right.

[effie]

Anyone who thinks the US is akin to Nazi Germany, well, now is the time to immigrate.

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

The question I have is what percentage of Orthodox have come to Rubashkin's defense.

For examples, Julie Weiner quotes four sources. A blog that concerns itself with Chabad bashing is obviously going to come to the defense of anybody or anything that is getting bashed. But the three other supporters Ms. Weiner cites were all on the Rubashkin family's payroll at some point.

All of this reminds me of the immense publicity you see every so often for a movie. I first noticed this when the original Austin Powers movie was released in 1997. Every newspaper, every local rag, every TV show had a plug for the movie. The one thinks newspapers, etc. don't talk about much is how they select what movies, restaurants, books, etc. to choose to do features on.

I think a good followup article in the NY Jewish Week would be to document more about who the supporters are, and their relation to the Rubashkins. As a few prior posters have noted, most people do not have first hand knowledge obtained in Postville or from people they know living in Postville.

[sage]

+++ Posted by: nachos | November 17, 2009 at 11:33 PM +++

Great post, Nachos !!!!!!!

Looking forward to visiting you and your wife, when my wife and I visit Postville.

Please have Shmarya pass on your email address to me, so that we might make arrangements offline.

[Hometown Postville]

Oh, so who cares if they used and abused immigrants? As long as they provided their peers with affordable kosher meat,they are heros? As the trial unfolds and the extortion and abuse of the vulnerable people who were responsible for elevating his business to such lofty levels is revealed, how are they going to justify that? Ok attorneys- your greatest challenge: how are you going to prove that SMR was totally ignorant of his immigrant workers being treated no better than slaves/animals? More of the "sloppy management" defense?

[Cha...Bad]

I grew up in the Lubavitch community and am all to familiar with the intense paranoia that passes as critical thought. Everyone hates them, any slight however slight is deemed antisemitism, and the implication is always abundantly clear: everyone else is to blame; they can do no wrong. A more thin skinned people I have not encountered since leaving the community.

The irony of course, is that I was exposed to copious amounts of hate directed at anyone other than Lubabs. Regular targets included the "snags", Modern Orthodox, Goyim, Shvartzes, liberals, Chilonim,
Reform Jews, Atheists, and Satmar to name a few.

So it is no surprise that a community which has countless numbers of haters who lie about their incomes and collect welfare they do not qualify for (fraud), are suddenly coming to the defense of one of their own fraudsters. Defrauding is a way of life, getting caught is nothing more than good old fashion antisemitism.

[confused]

Would someone please explain the halachic basis for referring to someone as a “half Jew”? As I understand it (and I admit my understanding may be flawed, hence the question.), it’s a true/false question, if someone is born of a Jewish mother or underwent a halachic(*) conversion, they are Jewish, otherwise they are not.

Every conversion to Judaism is done according to halacha, at least as its interpreted by the officiating rabbi. If one accepts the officiating rabbi’s credentials then one accepts people converted by that rabbi as Jewish, if not then not. But in either case it is still true/false question.

So where exactly do “half Jews” come into the picture?

(*) all conversions are intended to comply with halacha, the debate is in how to define the term “halacha”, and who gets to define it.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

Jakes I hear you. Someone who is Jewish according to Halacha should be accepted as such. The question of "Who is a Jew" is very important as it effects the eternity and continuity of our nation. From my personal family experience; I have an Aunt who converted through either reform or conservative. She was turned onto to orthodoxy by Chabad and currently lives in Israel and has from kids and many grandchildren.

[Chabadnik Attorney]

There is no such thing as a half jew.