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November 06, 2009

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malach

While I am sure what Naomi Ragen says is true and I agree with her bringing suit the actual situation in Jerusalem is not as bad as people posting seem to think.

I am not haredi but live in a predominantly haredi neighborhood and take buses almost every day. No neighborhood in Jerusalem is so isolated that a bus line only runs in it; that is, probably almost every bus line runs through different kinds of neighborhoods. While it is true that the drivers are no help, and some are a hindrance, being confident and if needed aggressive shuts most of the jerks up. For the most part I had more trouble when I was trying to be polite, American style.

That being said, the haredim pushing this separation are totally out of line. They do not have a leg to stand on either legally or halachically or based on just plain manners and human consideration. No one should have to sit in segregated sections on public conveyances. This modesty thing is very bizarre and totally out of hand.

Ben

Mooser the idiot writes: "Ah yes, by all means bring video cameras to film the women on the buses, it'll go very well with the films on how you treat the Palistinians."

First of all Mooser this article has nothing to do with Palestinians. Second please shut your putrid mouth.

Mr. Apikorus

A Rider:

Good for you, and your wife.

To your knowledge, has any driver (or passenger) attempted to throw someone off (or under) the bus for defying the separation of sexes rules?

Jack Schitt, Esq.

The R' Moshe T'shuva had to do with buses in America, not in Israel. It is dubious to use it as a source to say that mixing is acceptable on Haredi - not non-Jewish NYC - bus services. The two situations are far from analogous and arguably R' Moshe would not have said the same thing where separate seating could be made available because of the demand of Haredi clientele.

A. Nuran

Mooser, your amateur attempts at psychoanalyzing The Perfidious Zioninst Jew are as pathetic as they are transpartent. Suffice it to say that no Arab state, let alone the repulsive brand of death-worshipping thug which currently serves as Hamas and Fatah's leaders treats its own people half as well.

A. Nuran

Hotspur, I would support any such efforts, but I have neither the time nor the money to go to Israel. And since my wife is not Jewish I have only a theoretical horse in that race. I wouldn't ask her to risk going to jail on behalf of someone else's tribe.

Notice that I say "go to jail" not "get hurt or killed". I rather suspect it would be the Tallitbanis who would end up bleeding.

a Rider

@MR. Apikores,

I sat with my wife almost every day that I would commute on Monsey Trails in the Ladies Section. When a shpitzle would mistakenly believe that she could not sit on the same side as a man, I politely explained it to her.

Reader

I didn't say they were becoming radical. What they are practicing more and more is not "fundamentalist Judaism" but an "islamized Judaism". They are Jewish heretics. They are changing Judaism into a branch of Islam. I've also seen in print that some of them openly admire Muslims for their "values" and family life.

Derech

This term modesty is a misnomer.
A subset of charedis are gay and thus are sickened by any thought of touching women or seeing female skin.

That explanation accounts for all of their funny laws.

Tarfon Steinerman

Sounds good, but I have an idea for a Mehadrin MinHamehadrin line: Men in the front, underaged boys in the back. Those are the real souls we need to protect.

Mooser

Ah yes, by all means bring video cameras to film the women on the buses, it'll go very well with the films on how you treat the Palistinians.

Mooser

Freedom rides for women in Israel? Go ahead, make yourself a laughingstock in front of the world. Please, be my guest.
Look, Israeli society cannot be other than it is. In order for Israel to survive, an high degree of aggressive defensiveness is incumbent on everybody there. Which, it only natural, makes them all crazy. It's one thing to be driven crazy by persecution, but it's entirely another to drive yourself crazy (and try to make your children crazy) because you've put yourself into an untenable situation.
Any Israel, good luck de-segregating the buses.
And the rest of the world won't have any trouble figuring out why haredi men are so afraid of women. I'm sure they will draw the right conclusions.

Mooser

What a paradise we have made for the Jews in Israel!! How good it must be there. Remind me to stay far away from the place. How Israeli must pity me, a poor American Jew who must defer to and be considerate of women every day, even as the stick their seductive and wanton bodies all over the place.
Yeah, remind me to stay far the hell away from Israel. It sounds like everything any sane Jew would try to avoid. With outside danger, to boot, with a dispossessed majority wanting their stolen lands and homes back. Whose bright idea was this anyway?

Yochanan Lavie

And now, some Beatle Torah:

Roll up.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

Roll up.
And that's an invitation.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Women's humiliation.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

The Tragical Mehadrin Tzuris
Is waiting to take you oy vey.
Waiting to take you oy vey.

Roll up.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

Roll up.
We got the mechitza you need.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Mega chumrot guaranteed.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

The Tragical Mehadrin Tzuris
Is hoping to take Judaism away.
Hoping to take it away.

(Mehadrin Tzuris..)
Ah.. The Tragical Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

Roll up.
And that's an invocation.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.
Roll up.
Of powers above the nation.
Roll up for the Mehadrin Tzuris.

The Magical Mehadrin Tzuris
Is coming to take you oy vey.
Coming to take you oy vey.

The Tragical Mehadrin Tzuris
Is dying to take you avek.
Dying to take you avek.
Take you to heck.

Hometown Postville

One simple question: Why are the Haredi so afraid of women????????

Hotspur

A Nuran, brilliant comment. We need to organize freedom riders, Israeli men and woman to go on buses and ride together. Video tape is possible, humiliate them. Make Israeli society see the cancer in their midst.

A. Nuran

Critical Minyan, I've got plenty of problems with "them" forcing "their" women to do anything. Nobody should forced to act like a second class citizen or be expected to obey orders from random strangers on fear of humiliation or assault.

And decent people should not tolerate, let alone financially support, a culture which permits people to treat half the human race like something less than human.

Yes, I get the joke. Yes, it's funny. But as much as my aberrant lifestyle offends them, theirs puts me in mind of Sir Charles Napier when he addressed the custom of suttee.
He said

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.

If they cannot be induced to stop treating people like things they should expect to be so treated in return.

A. Nuran

Reader, they're turning into Wahabis and Talibanis. There are millions upon millions of Muslims all over the world who aren't like that. By the same token most Jews don't do this kind of crap. But the fundamentalist/totalitarian strain is present and growing in both religions as it is in Christianity.

Critical_minyan

If charedim want to make their women sit in the back of the bus I have no problem with it.
However, since they are treating their women like cattle, they should be careful just to make to help them get them back up if they topple over from their load, and allow them to work without a muzzle, so they can eat as they work if they get hungry.

Reader

They are turning into Moslems. They may even outdo the Moslems if this is not stopped.

formally

I have an idea why not tell the rebbies we agree but the men should go to the back and lets see how they respond

Mr. Apikorus

What would happen if a similar protest occured with Monsey Trails?

In this country, discrimination on account of sex is strictly illegal with regard to public accomodations. Yet Monsey Trails, with its segregation of male and female passengers, and its curtain separating them, continues.

Non-violent civil disobedience demonstrations against Monsey Trails, in which men and women sit together, and refuse to leave if asked by the bus driver or by other passengers, are long overdue.

A. Nuran

It's not about modesty. It's about control. Charedism, a totalitarian offshoot of Judaism, is simply following the classic pattern. This includes absolute control over anything connected to sexuality and increasingly crazy restrictions on all aspects of women's lives.

BaltimoreYid

As if there wasn't enough on our plate already.

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