Brooklyn Hatan Who Jumped To His Death 2 Days After Wedding Did So Because Of Sex Abuse Suffered As A Child, NY Post Says

Motty Borger was tormented by memories of being sexually molested as a Jewish student.

Suicide groom twist
By SUSAN EDELMAN and KIRSTEN FLEMING

A Brooklyn newlywed who jumped to his death from a hotel balcony the night after his wedding was tormented by memories of being sexually molested as a Jewish student, sources say.

After joyfully singing and dancing at their lavish celebration in Williamsburg on Nov. 3, Motty Borger, 24, bared his secret anguish to his bride, Mali Gutman, the next day -- and the revelation caused a strain, a source close to the family told The Post.

"That entire day he discussed it with her. He told her the story of his life, how he felt so awful and he couldn't go near her," the source said. The couple had met just last July, after a matchmaker set them up.

"When he got married, he realized he couldn't face up to it, and he told his wife that he needed help."

The stunned bride responded, "So, why did you marry me?"

Borger reportedly answered, "You are absolutely right. It was not right of me to get married."

At 6:45 a.m., while Mali slept, Borger climbed a railing outside their seventh-floor room at Avenue Plaza Hotel and leaped, police say. He died hours later at a hospital.

Friends insist that Borger -- described as fun-loving, smiling and cheerful -- wouldn't take his own life.

"I know Motty, and I know he didn't jump. It was an accident," one said. The rabbi who spoke at his funeral called reports of suicide "wickedness."

A security video at the hotel shows him looking "agitated" in an elevator with his wife, cops said.

The city Medical Examiner ruled his death a suicide. The NYPD is investigating the sex-abuse allegations, said a police official.

A source familiar with the tragedy said Borger had confided in close relatives that he was molested while a teen attending a yeshiva, possibly by a rabbi, but they never went to police.

Additional reporting by Rebecca Rosenberg, Liz Sadler and Reuven Blau.

Comments

[MARK MEYER]

it is horrific news let us pray hard that the so called rabbis wake up and stop the coverups

[Yisroel Pensack]

What will the family say now -- or do we have to wait until the shloshim is over, too?

[A. Nuran]

A source familiar with the tragedy said Borger had confided in close relatives that he was molested while a teen attending a yeshiva, possibly by a rabbi, but they never went to police.

What a God damned shame. If it weren't for the sick culture of secrecy he could have gotten the help he needed. What will it take for the religious to decide that helping the innocent is more important than rewarding criminals?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

it is horrific news let us pray hard that the so called rabbis wake up and stop the coverups

Don't bother, it won't help. Mesira is the Idol of the so-called rabbis.

[Yisroel Pensack]

I thought the Akeida taught us not to sacrifice our sons -- even on the altar of the frum community's sick concepts of political correctness.

[critical_minyan]

the gullible community lead by predator, crooked rabbis are not able to handle being adults.
the adults cannot do anything without instruction on every detail of their lives, and leave their children nakedly exposed to leaders who claim infallibility and use their power to pervert.

[itchiemayer]

As unfair as it may seem to the family, they absolutely need to make a public statement denying or confirming the rumors of the sexual abuse and did he "fall" or "jump". If he "fell" and was not sexually abused, then they need to put an end to the rumors. If he did "jump" and/or was sexually abused, they are doing a disservice to his holy neshoma to keep quiet. To do so, is to mean Motti died in vain, chas v'chalila. In this latter scenario, his friends and family that are forcefully denying what does appear to be true, are actually saying they are ashamed of Motti. Rest assured, Motti is innocent and in Gan Eden, and the molestors and individuals that knew and didn't seek out help for him have Motti's blood on their hands.

[effie]

I can't understand a family that is more interested in protecting the abuser than protecting their son.

[tosor]

They have 4 unmarried children. Doesn't that explain it?

[Yisroel Pensack]

I don't get it, tosor. Is being sexually abused as a teen in yeshiva a genetically inherited disease? Why should that affect the marriage prospects of a victim's siblings?

[maven]

What yeshivas did he go to? Was it Ben Zion Sobol again (who molested dozens of students at Itri Neve Yehoshua and other places?) and was given cushy jobs afterwards since he was a Rosh Yeshiva?

[Shmarya]

Not Sobel, as far as I know. Sobel's been in Israel way too long.

[tosor]

Yisroel Pensack, effie, itchiemayer :
a. Logically your correct. But if your trying to marry of your kids in a city where being a carrier can get you turned down, one can get kind of paranoid with what should and what shouldn't be said. A carrier, btw, is someone who carried in Boro Park's controversial Eriuv.
b. In the case of another young man that lived about 1 - 1/2 hrs away (about 9 mnths ago), the parents spoke out - eventual (in addition to a letter from the boy). Give them a chance to be 'hit by reality'. In the words of Robert De Niro '[There] grieving. It's a process', and it doesn't happen over night.
c. Perhaps some may look at the Kallah questioningly, as if there was something she could of done - I'm not suggesting anything either way - but if it help her feel better to 'let go' slowly, so be it.

True, if there are issues that need to be dealt with, they NEED to be dealt with. But that wont happen over night. If the family doesn't want to be in the spotlight yet, that is there right. At the right time, the right people will (hopefully) be contacted. According to the article posted here, the NYPD is already investigating. The Chasans father has already come out with a public statement - which clearly show that he understands the affect this tragedy had on the community. Give him a chance, he has been through a difficulty that we should never know, and lets be Don Lekav Zechus that he will do the right thing.

[Yerachmiel Lopin (FrumFollies.wordpress.com)]

Rotzchim, everyone involved in this cover up shares the blame. They should all go to his grave and beg mechilah in front of a minyan.

Tosor, please say more about the eiruv story.

[itchiemayer]

Tosor - The area of shidduchim is one of the most shameful in the orthodox world, whereby families get stigmatized by issues of sexual abuse, depression, and lack of yichus. Wonderful b'nei Torah come from mediocre families and some selfish, pompous overbearing individuals come from prominent families. Wonderful people can be on anti-depressants or have been sexually abused. They deserve good shidduchim every bit as much as anyone else. I did state that it is unfair to the family, but this is an extraordinary situation with rumors being bandied about, and while R' Shmuel Borger's comments were very nice, the sooner he comes out with comments regarding the circumstances surrounding this tragedy, the better.
If the NY Post is really posting falsehoods, then I would think they would be subject to libel lawsuits. If the hotel really has such a low balcony, I would think they would be subject to lawsuits. I don't think journalistic standards today are what they were in yesteryear, but it seems unlikely the NY Post would make this stuff up. Why would the Borgers even want shidduchim for their kids with people who would would hold the possible facts regarding Motti's death as a dealbreaker. Like Asher Lipner said in Passaic on Erev Yom Kippur, if families don't want to make shidduchim with his kids because of how vocal he is regarding sexual abuse in the orthodox community, then he doesn't want his kids to marry into their families anyway. In the end, do we stand for the EMES or not? If we don't, then we are pathetic. The truth sometimes hurts and is very uncomfortable to deal with, but in the end it is better than not dealing with it at all.

[MalachHamovies]

As everyone knows,i pegged this when the news broke. i had no doubt that he was molested. Sadly, nothing will change unless all of this would happen to one of the kids of the "biggest" Gedolim.

In this communitty, kids are expendibile. That's the bottom line.

[tosor]

itchiemayer, point taken. Still, give the guy a chance. We should never know the felling of losing a loved one, especially not a child. Allow him to deal with his personal loss FIRST, and then he will be able to deal with the other aspects (assuming they exists). NO, its not the fathers job to come out the day after shiva and resolve everyone curiosity. Nevertheless, he made an effort and reached out. Give him a chance, as a father, I'm sure he doesn't want any other children 'affected' (again, assuming that these rumors are substantial).

Yerachmiel Lopin, if you want more of the nareshkeit that is the eriuv, visit one of the silly 'frum' sites like haskafa.com. I really cant be bothered getting in to that mess.

[tosor]

MalachHamovies - so do something about it, or your just a guilty

[Kevin Harrington]

As a victim of abuse at the hands of a priest I can tell you that some 40 years after being molested I struggled with taking my own life. If it not for being a father an not wanting to leave a legacy of suicide i probably would have followed through.Today the laws are such most victims of abuse will never have a chance to confront their abusers or seek justice. these predators are protected by statue of limitaion laws.There is a bill before NY legislature to change this so childood victims have an opportu ity to seek justice. Both the catholic church and the majority of the Jewish communities leadership have fought to strike down this bill.

[MalachHamovies]

Posting and commenting and helping out Shmayra when i could is all i can do at this time.

[Ahava]

That poor boy. May he rest in peace.
And may G-d strike down the child abusers once and for all, and all those who protect them.

[effie]

This young man didn't become depressed and suicidal overnight. Did any one seek counseling for him from a trained therapist and not some religious hack? That is also a parent's duty. Protecting the abusers is one issue -- obtaining qualified treatment for victims is another.

[Robert Wisler]

The kallah comes off in the article sounding like a real bitch. I hope this article was inaccurately portraying her. The proper response of an eyshes chayil to her chosson should have been that of expressing to him understanding and desire to undergo marriage and sexual abuse counseling to help fix the problem. Any insights on the kallah?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ahava said it best.

[effie]

Any insights on the kallah? She's a very young girl, who has lived a sheltered life - not a psychotherapist. Seems bizarre that anyone would expect her to do what the parents and the rabbis couldn't/wouldn't do.

[Mo]

If this scum rabbi is caught he would would probably do 10 to 15 yet sholom rubashkin who never heart a fly in his life and was going to pay back the loan gets life. What a sick world.

[Sara Yenta]

effie, I know the kalla, she is a sweet innocent girl. Nothing and no one could have prepared her, she was and still is in shock.
To call her names and accuse her is wrong and thoughtless.
It is the parents' responsibility to marry a child that is MENTALLY HEALTHY and ready for marriage.
Ironically, the Rabbis have declared it an accident.
This is to everyone's benefit. No one has to have any guilt.
The whole community should just do tshuva, simple enough?!
So, where are the lawsuits?

[steve]

How many more korbanos do we need? How many more, lemaan hashem, until the Agudah leadership admits that we have a serious problem here? How many more victims will it take to shut up the likes of Dovid Niederman, Marvin Schick and Avi Shafran who continue to downplay the issue? How many more will it take until "well intentioned" people like Dov Hikind stop protecting the molesters and release the names of known offenders? Shua Finkelstein's death hardly made a dent. Maybe Motty's untimely passing will stir them just a little. Maybe?

[itchiemayer]

With regards to most non modern orthodox Jewish weddings, the chassan and kallah really don't know each other that well.
It reminds me of a story that one of my Daughter's Rebbeim of her 9th grade class was speaking to the class (all girls) about how when a (frum) Jewish man and woman get married, they really don't love each other, but that over time the love develops and grows. B"H it was my daughter that was the one who had the "audacity" to say to the Rabbi "so Rabbi -----, you didn't love your wife when you married her"? He quickly backpedaled and said of course he did, but he loves her even more now. Anyhow, Sara is correct in that it is unrealistic to think the Kallah would have reacted the way Robert Wisler would have expected her to act. May she find her zivug soon, and build a Bayis Ne'eman B'Yisroel.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The only psychotherapists approved by the 'rabbis' are religious hacks.

[sam]

Jnm

[reuven sabel]

we have to realize that a persons first sexual experience usually shapes their sexuality and causes them to have either heterosexual desires or homosexual desires. most boys who are molested by men or other boys usually aquire homosexual desires from these horible experiences. those who are not religious become practicing homosexuals and those who are religious suppress their homosexual desires and marry women in the hopes that being married to a woman will cure them of their homosexual desires. sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. maybe if the kallah would have been more sexually agressive with motty borger on the wedding night, she might have been able to completely cure him of his homosexual desires or at least proved to him that he is bisexual and capable of enjoying himself with a woman.

[reuven sabel]

as far as the child molesters are concerned, all teachers and rabbis who have homosexual desires should and must immediately leave the chinuch profession and stop being teachers of children.
we should let them know that if they molest children, they will be reported to the secular authorities and go to jail and that even though jewish law usually does not allow mesira, the saving of our children from the abomination of homosexuality is more important than the laws against mesira. nowhere does it say that to make a mesira is an abomination, but it says several times in the torah that for a man to commit a homosexual act is an abomination. we must have mesiras nefesh to save the jewish people from this abomination.
however a one time first offender who confesses his horrible sin of child molestation to a great rabbi and breaks down in tears while confessing his horrible abominable sin to this great rabbi should be spared having to go to jail if he leaves the profession of teaching children and undergoes counciling for the purpose of curing him of his homosexual desires.

[tosor]

reuven sabel saves the planet! You are the answer to ALL of our needs! You have it all figured out - its like you've been there watching every step and reading all parties' mind's all along. You seem to know exactly who did what, when and why. And which experiences have exactly what affect on whom. What would we do without you, O thy savior?

[Anon]

Mr. Sabel you have very outdated notions about the effects of sexual abuse, and homosexuality in general.

[effie]

Anon: Agreed.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

maybe if the kallah would have been more sexually agressive with motty borger on the wedding night, she might have been able to completely cure him of his homosexual desires or at least proved to him that he is bisexual and capable of enjoying himself with a woman.
-------------------------------
How was she supposed to it?
You expecting a virgin frum girl to be aggresive on her first time?

Idiot!

[WoolSilkCotton]

So Reuven, are you ok with heterosexual molesting by rabbis with female children?
Sometimes I wonder if the religious crowd is mostly worried that the sexual assaults are homosexual, and wouldn't be nearly as bothered if it were heterosexual assaults. I hope I'm wrong about that.

Any law enforcement official, mental health professional, or rape/sexual assault victim will tell you that it's not about sexual desire by the perpetrator.

It's about violence, control, and humiliation of the victim.

I am not referring to date rape accusations that are more in line with 'I thought she meant yes' or the woman changes her mind while you're rounding third base. (Although 'no' or 'stop' HAVE to be understood by men as meaning NO and STOP.)

Sexual molestation of children, like adult rape, is NOT about someone being too randy, not having a willing partner available, and then going after someone nearby.

[effie]

(Although 'no' or 'stop' HAVE to be understood by men as meaning NO and STOP and DO YOU WANT TO SHARE A CELL WITH RUBASHKIN?)

fify

[Shlomo]

Effie its not fair to blame the parents they are also (secondary) victims - you don't know how much they knew and when the real villains are the perps and the ones that cover it up

[effie]

Shlomo: It's not some big mystery, Shlomo. Was a complaint against his abuser ever filed? Doesn't seem like it. And judging from his mental state, he never received any kind of treatment or if he did it was inadequate. Whose fault is that? The victim's????

[Hometown Postville]

That poor boy and his unsuspecting bride. Do you think any of his perpetrators cringed when they heard this? Perhaps wondered what became of other victims? It would be nice to think they live with more than just a little guilt. With all the restrictions on women, it's not hard to see why the men turn to each other for their desires. Makes no sense; they're not supposed to lay eyes on even a smidgen of a woman's bare ankle, but they seem to be able to justify ravaging young boys, scarring them for life. Which is worse? Seeing a little bare skin certainly wouldn't traumatize them for life or be cause them to contemplate suicide!!!!!!!

[Shlomo]

Effie for instance children very often hide what happened and even deny it when asked - thats part of what happens until it bursts forth at some later date. Its very traumatic for the child to talk about it.
You should G-d forbid never ever be in such a position

[seymour]

Maybe just maybe if the parents are strong enough they can use his death to finally get seriously about abuse. Ane the need to report to the police.

Then again it is a big if

[R]

This is just really sad and heart breaking.

[shneerhere]

Ah, but 'Sara Yenta' that is where you are wrong. Somebody DOES have to have some guilt. The boy didn't jump out of thin air. Sweeping this under the rug and labeling it an accident (IF it is not) simply enables the next suicide down the road.
My whole life I've learned about Ahavas Yisroel and Jews doing for Jews.... this cannot be reconciled, other than to extinguish the perpetuation of such crimes, no matter who's toes get stepped on. An Am Kadosh cannot tolerate this serial behavior. Why this is not obvious to our leaders/sages is beyond me.

[effie]

Shlomo: Read the last paragraph of the article. Close relatives either means his parents or some one who should have informed his parents. My gut tells me that they are referring to his parents.

[Avrumele]

I was told by several people with closose ties to the Borger family that there is a a family member in the immediate family who is a known molestor.The police should press both Mrs. Borger senior and junior for details and the truth will come out. I also heard that there was a divorce in the family, a fact that warrant looking into.

[reuven sabel]

some child molesters premeditate their child molestation and these child molesters should go to jail. other child molesters never plan on molesting children but when they see a child that they find attractive cant control themselves. these child molesters need to keep away from children, confess their sins to a great rabbi, and get counceling.
molesting underage girls is 99% as bad as molesting underage boys. why only 99% as bad? because it doesnt involve any homosexual prohibitions.

[radloh]

when i began what i thought to be the process of going to the law, i was written about on sme blogs in a most horrible way. similar to the rape victim who feels she had ben raped again. i always read about that but you can't know what it's like until it happens to you.

and if victims feel like they are being doubly victimised by coming out, then imagine how this works in the frum world...

of course you want them to go to prison, and be punished, but then th frum world begins molesting you again, as happened to me and to many other frummies or ex-frummies who took that road.

i thought this horror story would be a wake-up call in the frum world. i am not suggesting a witch-hunt with thousands going to jail, but something must be done.

[maven]

WSC: Actually, its oddly the other way around. When rebbeim attack their male talmidim, its understood as a "tayveh", but if a anyone has desires for a woman (even legally), it seems to be immediately condemned. So monsters like Sobol and all the other ones usually mentioned here were left to prey on boys for many years, while yeshiva boys who "talk to girls" are usually driven out of the community early. Note that these little boy "pircheis" are worshipped by the community (you can go on youtube and see how they make these little boys dance around and sing), but don't even imagine allowing the girls to sing or even allowed to sit on a bus.

The "insight" Reuven Sabel has is unfortunately representative of this. If the shmuck destroys many boys' lives its OK if he breaks down and cries (that was what Sobol apparently did), but any young man with a normal drive, caught talking to "girls", is driven out.

[Chicago Sam]

Note that they call rebbeim who attack their students as suffering from a "ta'avah" (desire), what they really suffer from is "to'vah," "abominable" behavior. Pardon the pun . . .

When I was in yeshiva, if a young student (like myself!) used to talk to a pretty girl, I was almost thrown out of the yeshiva!

The Haredi world is totally dysfunctional--largely perhaps because of the over eroticization of the opposite sex. If the Halacha worried less about a woman's hair, figure, legs, etc,. . ., they would learn to get a long a lot better with the opposite sex.

I recall being in Mea Sharim where girls and boys were playing video games together at a pizza shop; the rabbis later angrily separated the group for fraternizing together.

When young men are discouraged to think about women, they go to the next available resource of sexual pleasure--fellow yeshiva students; I recall once how one of my best friends, a fine and upcoming talmid chacham, who was accused of molesting two Russian boys in the dorm downstairs; he refused to swear on the Torah that he did not do it; but they left him stay in the yeshiva. I remember my reaction: this cannot be true--but now, years later, I think that it probably was.

Then again, there was the Talmudic mashgiach, who used to gently pet the young talmidim on the hand; he had an effeminate voice--really creepy character, to say the least . . .

It's rather upsetting to think rabbis--perhaps even some of the most famous rabbis--might have suffered from this type of disease throughout Jewish history. Such is the nature of sexual dysfunction and deviance.

[K.M]

Maybe it was not a Rabbi who molested him. Maybe it was some other Yeshiva employee like the janitor, cook or one of the secular department staff. Lets give our Rabbis ( who, on the whole, are good-natured upright people ) the benefit of the doubt.

[jewish cynic]

Lesson of this should be:
G-d forbid you were molested and are going to kill yourself, kill the molester first!

Sadly that might be the only way to get molesters to think before they do.

Reuven, you might have had a point had you spoke of a pedo who confessed his terrible urges to a rabbi but had never acted on them.
That's a difficult situation for law enforcement as well.
But you're saying a molester get's "one kid free".
Pick a really attractive one, do your evil thing, confess to a rabbi and get wrapped in the shield of mesirah!

Hey Reuven, suppose someone has an urge to rob a shul, yeshiva or rabbi. If they only rob one and confess will they get protected like the molesters?!!

[maven]

CS: That's exactly right. And that's why this phenomenon is particularly common in the haredier places, what I experienced in Itri was entirely absent when I switched to a hesder yeshiva, probably because up until yeshiva there was at least some normal coed interaction through Benai Akiva and Ezra, though much is changing.

KM- I'd be surprised, because in those situations there is usually resistance; the reason it works in the yeshiva world with the rebbeim is because they are considered "holy" and "more learned" and "always right", so if they explain what they are doing as being OK, as was the case with Ben Zion Sobel, well, how can one say no to a rosh yeshiva? And who knows what he'll do to destroy you, and all your siblings in terms of shidduchim, etc, if you get on his bad side?

[K.M]

Maven, I see your point.

[elisheva]

TOSER, WHOMEVER U ARE....I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU 100%!

[liora]

WITH ALL DO RESPECT TO THE PARENTS, I UNDERSTAND THEY MUST BE GOING THROUGH HELL.THEIR SON TOLD THEM-THEY NEVER GOT HIM HELP-THEY NEVER WENT TO THE POLICE--AND IF I WERE THEM--I WOULD BE ON MY KNEES BY HIS GRAVE-BEGGING FOR MACHILA....AS WELL AS -WHOMEVER MOLESTED HIM-IF ITWAS RABBANIM-OR RABBANIM KNEW...ETC...THEY SHOULD ALL BE AT HIS GRAVE BEGGING HIS NESHAMA FOR MACHILA!!!

[Friends friend]

Whoever is asking about the kallah, a few points. First off, it doesn't matter how bitchy anyone is, there isn't a wife on earth that could nag a guy over a balconey in 24 hours. So this had nothing to do with the kallah. The answer to any issues that may have come up in the one day they were married isn't to go on a balconey. Worst comes to worst, pack up and go home. This was the culmination of something that was there before the kallah ever became his kallah.

The source of the NYP article is Nuchem Rosenberg's comments after Motti's oetirah. If you listen to his comments (The 712 number that was posted here) he doesn't say that the alleged conversation between choson and kallah actually happened, he merely puts it out there as a supposition based on the events. He never spoke to the kalla and presumably wasn't in the room with the so obviously him saying they spoke is just conjecture on his part. The Post reporting of it in my opinion was poor or lazy journalism because the conversation could only be known to two people, one who is dead and the other who hasn't confirmed the conversation either publicly or privately.

What happened to Motti was a tragedy regardless of the reason. But leave the kallah out of the equation because she's as much a victim here as anyone.

[effie]

the conversation could only be known to two people, one who is dead and the other who hasn't confirmed the conversation either publicly or privately.

How do you know what she said to the police?

[Avrumele]

Do I really have to spell out who the molestor in the family is? Anyone interested don't have to dig too deep.

[Friends friend]

How would Rosenberg know what she said to the police? The conversation was offered by NR merely as speculation.

Again, this tragedy has zero to do with the kallah. Use common sense, she hardly knew the guy. Clearly the chasan's side withheld critical information from the family. One of the conclusions that anyone can draw from this is that honesty and being up front go a long way. Parents and prospective in laws can only deal with a problem if they know about it. Hiding that a prospective mate is on a mood stabilizer or other therapy, either pharmacological or behavioral, is nothing to hide.

I think a lot of frum people forgot that when you marry someone you marry them as the old adage says, for better or for worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health. In short, to love someone you must accept them for who they are.

I echo the previous posts, to deny anything about Motty AH is to be ashamed of him. Anyone that loved Motty should rejoice in his life regardless of what society defines as stigma. If he was a victim of abuse, then I hope that his pain is gone. I have no doubt Motty is a very special place in Gan Eden, and those that knew him even briefly should feel blessed having come across his very special countenance.

[Yerachmiel Lopin (FrumFollies.wordpress.com)]

Yes Avrumele, you do have to spell it out.

As for the Post source. I will bet on a police source. They must have gotten it from the bride. Perhaps, as they often do, she was interviewed while in shock and alone without her parents. I could see her telling the truth even if she denies it later once the shidduch goons go after her through her unmarried relatives.

[K.M]

Freinds freind said:"One of the conclusions that anyone can draw from this is that honesty and being up front go a long way. Parents and prospective in laws can only deal with a problem if they know about it. Hiding that a prospective mate is on a mood stabilizer or other therapy, either pharmacological or behavioral, is nothing to hide."
Oh, please. And I guess in your world the tooth fairy and Santa Clause go square dancing with JFK and Elvis. Of course, taking pills and going to therapy is something to hide. I can just imagine the parents of perspective Kallah, upon revelations of those facts, saying: We are sure he is a nice guy but the Hashkafa of my daughter is a bit different" or some such excuse. You have to get real about the realities of orthodox shidduch scene.

[K.M]

"I know Motty, and I know he didn't jump. It was an accident," one said. The rabbi who spoke at his funeral called reports of suicide "wickedness.""
Here is another example of the frum world being blinded to reality.

[seymour]

Maybe it was not a Rabbi who molested him. Maybe it was some other Yeshiva employee like the janitor, cook or one of the secular department staff. Lets give our Rabbis ( who, on the whole, are good-natured upright people ) the benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: K.M | November 16, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Please

if that was the case the police would have been informed

[Chicago Sam]

I was thinking how this might have been avoided; as a congregational rabbi, one of the things I try to do with a couple that is contemplating a marriage is pre-marital counseling.

It may not be a bad idea for the yeshivas to utilize professional counselors and therapists to help guide the individual students who are preparing for the next stage of their lives.

The yeshivas need to modernize and re-invent themselves to meet the needs of our complicated age . . .

[Chicago Sam]

The reality is the Haredi rabbis are more interested in "looking good" than they are in helping their students deal with hard life issues.

These leaders fear the world or their communities will lose respect if they show vulnerability, which would jeopardize the supremacy of "da'as torah." What they don't realize is that they will realize their worst fears if they don't start doing something to change their thinking. Simply put, they are either part of the solution, or they are part of the problem. Clearly, the rabbanim are part of the problem . . . but this situation can change for the better with genuine haratah and teshuvah on the part of the rabbis.

Until this experience of μετάνοια (metanoia) occurs, innocent lambs will continue to be slaughtered; haredi rabbis cannot excuse themselves or their abdication of responsibility. Their hands are not clean; through their cowardice they have allowed innocents to die because of their own agendas and apathy.

[Chicago Sam]

The reality is the Haredi rabbis are more interested in "looking good" than they are in helping their students deal with hard life issues.

These leaders fear the world or their communities will lose respect if they show vulnerability, which would jeopardize the supremacy of "da'as torah." What they don't realize is that they will realize their worst fears if they don't start doing something to change their thinking. Simply put, they are either part of the solution, or they are part of the problem. Clearly, the rabbanim are part of the problem . . . but this situation can change for the better with genuine haratah and teshuvah on the part of the rabbis.

Until this experience of μετάνοια (metanoia) occurs, innocent lambs will continue to be slaughtered; haredi rabbis cannot excuse themselves or their abdication of responsibility. Their hands are not clean; through their cowardice they have allowed innocents to die because of their own agendas and apathy.

[K.M]

Yes, Seymour, I do concede that there is a greater chance that it was a Rabbi who did it than another Yeshiva worker. All I am saying is that the possibility exists that it was someone else. That individual could have still been Jewish but not religeous and the Borger family might have felt guilty ruining the reputation of another Jew. When inestigating all possibilities must be examined.

[Avrumele]

Yerachmiel Lopin - I don't have to spell it out anyone with 1/4 of a brain can figure it out, which i'm sure you also did - and BTW i just got another confirmation that it was not the mother.

[Friends friend]

KM, with your formula there will be no way to prevent tragedies like these from recurring, and the cycle goes on and on. If someone passes on a shidduch because someone is helping themselves with an antidepressant or whatever, then it's their loss. Nothing wrong with someone dealing with a problem, the opposite, it should be looked on as admirable.

[Friends friend]

Avrumele stop with the code and come out with it already.

[reuven sabel]

i do not believe that a rabbi should go scot free if he molests only one child and i do not believe that rabbis should be able to get away with molesting any children. i was just saying that sometimes people commit sins without really realizing what they are doing and that jail is not necesarilly the right punishment for a contrite penitent one time offender. all those child molesters with more than one accusation against them should definitely go to jail.

[a friend]

To Avrumele:

I am not having a hard time figuring it out, but how wud u know????????

What are you trying to accomplish?? If u are just trying to gossip, then SHUT UP!!!
And if you are trying to accomplish something then STOP being so vague!

[a friend]

To Avrumele:

I am not having a hard time figuring it out, but how wud u know????????

What are you trying to accomplish?? If u are just trying to gossip, then SHUT UP!!!
And if you are trying to accomplish something then STOP being so vague!

[Avrumele]

I have spoken to people in the community who are in the know. Enough said I have to protect the innocent. But just wait a little more and the details will emerge. And yes, please check out if they are really so rich to throw such a lavish affair. Do you think stealing candy from a child is a crime? Interestingly some molesters are the Candy Man in Shul, altough in this case it is someone else in Munkatch Shul (mentioned by NR on his hotline) who was arrested this past summer for giving out too much candy.
I wonder if he was the photographer at the wedding.
I suggest you and all these who stick up for everyone except for the victim, read up on Child Molestation and on its symptoms and victims behavior, and you will change your tune.
Meanwhile BML and JB are walking free, and this poor Choson nebach jumped.
Lets get these guys locked up and throw away the keys, so our children will be safer.
I will also use this forum to tell R' Moshe Meir Weiss, to ask mechila from Motty, for covering up what was done to him. Rabbi Weiss Shame on you.

[K.M]

Ff, maybe that formula does not help but at least I am being realistic. Ask yourself this: would you go out with someone who carries extra "baggage"? Would you let your son/daughter go out with such an individual, especially when there are so many better options out there? Don't get me wrong, I do sympathize and wish all the best to these poor souls, but on a personal level I am not so sure I could deal with all the ramifications of dating such individuals.

Avrumele: I do not know you but I would suggest being careful with such accusations. These websites are monitored and you don't want some lawsuit brought against you for slandering anyone. Freedom on the internet has its limitations, so be careful.

[Avrumele]

P.S.
I am sure that if Rabbi Weiss is so close the family, to address the womenfolk in public by first name, in front of a big chasidish crowd, he must know much more than myself, of the subject that I am alluding to.

[Avrumele]

KM.
I Just said who did not do it.

[reuven sabel]

anybody and everybody with a yetzer hora to molest children:
leave the teaching profession and stop associating with children immediately before you give in to your yetzer hora and molest a child because even if i would not turn you into the government for molesting a child, there are others who would turn you into the government and have you locked up in jail for 25 years to life for even a first offence.

[Laurel]

As soon as I read this headline, I was all "woe. That guy was right!" That guy being MalachHamovies.

Hmm. I figured he either knew something about life, or took Psyche classes, or had personal or secondary knowledge of the sort. Regardless, just have to give the guy props for calling it right away. Diagnosis = 1/2 the battle.

All that's needed now is a big fat dose of whatever will cure these freakish molesters--who're probably casing out their next victims as soon as their wives are Niddah.

[Chicago Sam]

I have one simple question for the rabbanim of the yeshiva world to meditate upon:

Can you honestly say:

"Our hands did not shed this blood, and our eyes did not see the deed" ?

[inside scoop]

lol I laugh when I read all these posts.
Yes, if the article is true you can try to analyze it from this way or that way, but did anyone think maybe the article is made up??? Or they have their facts from someone with his own agenda??? Do you really think a close family member spoke to the post??? and revealed intimate details of the choson and kallas conversation??
Well I have news for you, the conversation never happened.
No one will ever know what happened because no one was there when he fell, and he never told anyone about being molested or anything else like that the night he passed away
It’s amazing how you believe everything you read in the newspaper!!!
ps I have some stock tips for you

[tosor]

inside scoop: are you suggesting that a perfectly health and sane individual awoke early one morning (during sheva brachos!) for the sole reason of trying to determine whether or not humans can fly?

While there is no proof that anything the Post or NR said is true, it's doubtful that "No one will ever know what happened".

Additionally, (assuming that you do have the 'inside scoop') you seem not to be denying the headline of this article, or that he discussed 'it' with his wife, only that "the conversation never happened" and "and he never told anyone ... the night he passed away".

If you know the events to be different than those portrayed here, and you want to set the record straight, then go ahead and join the Loshon Horah/"the world needs to know" club. Otherwise, your comments will be disregarded and you namesake doubted.

[Friends friend]

If you do have the inside scoop, then you need to fill the world in because lying is no memorial to Motty. The railing was not too short. People don't just tumble off balconies like that. If he wasn't molested, fine. But don't put out there the nonsense about stumbling. If that's the story you're sticking to you might as well say he was trampled by a herd of buffalo.

The truth lies between a terrible accident that occurred as a result of very bad (fatal) judgment, and a jump that was either the result of a manic delusion or a depression brought on by molestation. That's the spectrum. I agree that the conversation mentioned in the NYP is speculation and did not occur, but that doesn't mean that the entire article is wrong. Motty is gone and understanding why is the only responsible approach to take concerning our children.

[itchiemayer]

Avrumele - I received your text, and checked out your comments which are right on.
Any friends or family that try to deny the truth are saying they are ashamed of the innocent victim, Motti Bolger, A"H.
With all due respect to the Father, I was a bit uncomfortable by his recording and I'm not quite sure why. It seemed to be lacking emotion. It was an awkward message.
That is my sense of it.

[common sense]

When you listen to Rosenberg as crazy as he may or may not be, he is crying with bitter tears over the loss of this poor tormented soul.
In Yiddish it is even more emotional. When you listen to a father who is in total denial, and does not even shed half a tear while speaking of him, ..........Avrumele, I dont know who you are or where you are getting your info from, but you have something there. And there is a large extended family, many of whom may or may not have their own agendas, but there are definitely some who know the story firsthand and are speaking about it. You cannot shut the mouths of everyone. People will talk. And continue to talk.

[K.M]

Lets not accuse the father of anything just yet. The fact that the father does not sound emotional is that he is probably in shock and his feelings did not come out. Let the man deal with the grief in his own way. We should never, g-d forbid, be in his shoes...

[Friends friend]

Other than chatter what substantiation is there that he was molested?

[itchiemayer]

Ff - because the "chatter" is simply what makes the most sense. Not that he fell over the railing, not that he was locked out and trying to get back in the room, and not that he would jump for no reason. The longer the family is silent, the more one has to believe the "chatter" is correct.

Whether he was molested or not, they must come out with the truth, even if it makes them look bad.

[radloh]

http://7fatcow.com/2009/11/17/woe-to-the-eyes-and-ears/
here is what avrumle is talking abou: the identitu of the molester.

[radloh]

here is what avrumle is talking about: the identity of the molester.
http://7fatcow.com/2009/11/17/woe-to-the-eyes-and-ears/

[radloh]

Halavay we can stop this madness wrote,

As a young teenager at the time of Amudai Shaish I recall the scandal. One of his soloists whom has long since left and living somewhere who knows where was his dedicated Lover boy. There were many more that is why Amudai Shaish was closed down so that he shouldn’t be working with kids."

http://7fatcow.com/2009/11/17/woe-to-the-eyes-and-ears/#comment-33371

[Avrumele]

This creep talks of Ahavas Yisroel, let him rather talk of AHAVAS YELODIM also known as PEDOPHILIA.
I have my sources for what I wrote. And yes Motty DID tell his kallah, it is not a hypotheses.
And there is more to come soon, but i'd rather the newspapers and Law Enforcement publicize it.

[radloh]

there is only one reason not to post this: perhaps shmuel borger is on his way to israel now...

[MalachHamovies]

A friend of mine told me today that he knows a melamad in a chassidishe yeshiva who was molested as a youngster. Well of course at the time it was kept quiet.

A few years ago when welcoming his new students he found out that the father of one of the new students was his molester !!!!

Although the pain was horrible he of course had to go through the entire year dealing with the child and parent (molester) without saying a word.

We live in a SICK SICK community !!

[Avrumele]

Can somebody explain this contradiction:
Most frum people when told about molestation will claim that it is libel, or in other words "You are making it up and YOU are the pig for talking like that", and "No kid ever got sick from that".
So explain to me how come that it is a blemish on the kid for life, and he is considered DAMAGED GOODS for shidduchim?
Or is it because he is so bad that he made up such a story?

[Avrumele]

Well little by litte, people are starting to open up. I just met a jungerman who told me that he just heard in Shul that practically every kid that sang in Amudei Shayish was molested.

[Avrumele]

Oh Yeah: He told me that motty also molested others (i'm not saying this, just quoting). Makes sense. If it is true, let the victims please come forward, or at least go for help, before they get married and follow the flightpath.