US State Department: Israel Discriminates Against Non-Orthodox Jews

Report cites government discrimination against non-Orthododx Jews and non-Jews.

US: Israel favorites orthodox sects
Matthew Wagner • THE JERUSALEM POST

The State of Israel discriminates against non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and against Jewish-born believers in Christianity, while the Palestinian Authority has not been doing enough to combat Muslim violence against Christians, according to the US State Department's annual International Religious Freedom Report on Israel released this week.

"Israeli government policy continued to support the generally free practice of religion, although government discrimination against non-Jews and non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued," stated the 12,000-word report.

The Orthodox monopoly over marriage, burial and conversion was criticized by US State Department officials.

"Approximately 310,000 citizens who immigrated under the Law of Return but are not considered Jewish by the Orthodox Rabbinate cannot be married, divorced, or buried in Jewish cemeteries within the country," said the report.

"As in previous periods," the report continued, "the Religious Affairs Ministry failed to implement the 1996 Alternative Burial Law that established the right of any individual to be buried in a civil ceremony and did not utilize any of the money allocated in the 2008 budget for the development of civil/secular burial plots."

The report even went into surprising detail about the mandatory marriage counseling demanded by the Chief Rabbinate of all Jews - Reform, Conservative or Orthodox - before being married.

For instance the report quoted from a brochure used by a marriage counselor which State Department officials described as reflecting "traditional Orthodox family roles." The brochure "compared a woman to clay and urged the husband to 'shape and mold her as he pleases.'"

In the second half of the report which focused on the Palestinian Authority's attitude toward religious freedom, the report refrained from entering into the same level of detail in, say, the content of inciting speeches given by imams in mosques.

The report also criticized Israel's treatment of messianic Jews, who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but adopt some Jewish rites.

Basing themselves on the Jerusalem Institute of Justice, an NGO that defends the legal rights of Jews who practice Christianity, State Department officials noted that Interior Ministry officials denied services to citizens based on their religious beliefs.

"The JIJ's legal defense caseload included numerous cases dealing with attempts by the Interior Ministry to revoke the citizenship of persons discovered holding messianic or Christian beliefs, or to deny some of the national services such as welfare benefits or passports to such persons.

"In other cases the ministry attempted to block immigration of messianic Jews by refusing to process their immigration applications."

The report also scrutinized the impact on religious freedom of the ongoing conflict in Judea and Samaria between Israelis and Palestinians.

"The Israeli government generally respected the right to freedom of religion in the Occupied Territories during the reporting period. "However," the report noted, "Israel's strict closure policies and the separation barrier constructed by the government of Israel had the effect of severely restricting the ability of Palestinian Muslims and Christians to reach places of worship and to practice their religious rites.

"The security barrier made it particularly difficult for Bethlehem area Christians to reach the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem and made visits to Christian site in Bethany and Bethlehem difficult for Palestinian Christians living in Jerusalem side of the barrier."

The report also noted how the ongoing tension restricted Jewish access to holy sites.

"Israeli law also restricted the ability of Israeli Jews to reach places of worship in areas under Palestinian control."

State Department officials noted that the restrictions on movement were due to "security concerns" but did not go into details regarding these concerns.

While the first half of the report was devoted to Israel, the second half focused on the Palestinian Authority. The report stated that "PA government policy contributed to the generally free practice of religion, although problems persisted during the reporting period."

State department officials noted Muslim violence against Christians in Bethlehem and Ramallah and land confiscation.

"The PA did not take sufficient action during the reporting period to investigate and bring to justice persons who harassed, intimidated and perpetrated attacks against some Christian residents of Bethlehem and Ramallah.

"The PA judiciary also failed to adjudicate numerous cases of seizures of Christian-owned land in the Bethlehem area by criminal groups." The report also noted Hamas's infringement of of the religious rights of Christians in Gaza.

"Due to the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip, the PA was unable to pursue cases of religious discrimination there. Some Gazan Christians stated that they believed their Muslim neighbors were discriminating against them for their faith; they also raised concerns that no authority was willing or able to reign in extremist groups. Hamas did not adequately address the cases of discrimination against or intimidation of Christians that occurred during the previous reporting period."

Comments

[Proud Englishman]

This report makes me glad I'm an Englishman and not a Jew. The American state department's report on Great Britain says that we respect freedom of religion for all people. We have plenty of Messianic Jews and we don't discriminate against them in any way. Every day, dozens of Jews accept Jesus and become full-fledged Englishmen. Yes, we Brits have a glorious history, filled with rich tradition, and we're proud of it. But we don't feel the need to attack others or not let them be buried in our cemeteries. I personally wouldn't mind having a burial plot next to a Hebrew, a Moslem, or any other race. When I die, the atoms that formed themselves into a glorious Englishman will return to the dirt from which they were formed. To learn more about England, you can find many books at your local library.

[Michelle]

B"H

I guess the State Department missed the whole thing about the arabs not letting us pray at our own Holy Temple, even enter areas of the Tomb of the Patriarch, attacking us every time we go to Rachel's Tomb, and destroying and desecrating Jacob's Tomb.

I guess the state department missed the part where the arabs won't let any Jews into arab-occupied Israel, oppress their xtian minorities, destroy and desecrate churches and synagogues, and teach hate for Jews and xtians alike in their sermons, on their TV shows, and in their textbooks.

But, heck, it's all the Jews' fault, right?

[harold]

It is wonderful to see our tax dollars hard at work and keeping a handful of people gainfully employed.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Yes, we Brits have a glorious history, filled with rich tradition, and we're proud of it.

A rich tradition of expelling Jews. It seems the Brits can only take Jews in small quantities.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I personally wouldn't mind having a burial plot next to a Hebrew....

How magnanimous.

[Yeze]

There's a report about every country, including Saudi Arabia. This is not the US State Dept focusing on Jews, it is the US State Dept helping out Jews who aren't ultra-Orthodox/establishment.

The State Dept notes the democratic nature of the Israeli state, in contrast to those who bend or ignore the law to intimidate and persecute Israel's minorities.

[effie]

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/index.htm

I've only had time to qive it a quick look, but it could have been a lot better.

[Michelle]

B"H

I get your point, Yeze, but why didn't they focus as much on the arabs as they focused on the Jews?

Believe me, there is a reason behind it, and it isn't "neutrality."

The new administration is trying to distance itself from Israel as much as possible in order to encourage arab sovereignty over our historic lands.

WAKE UP! The only "helping out Jews who aren't ultra-Orthodox" they are doing is aiding Peace Now and other radical anti-Israel Jewish groups play out their self-mortification rituals to the tune of chanting "death to Israel" arabs and college groupies wearing Kaffiahs.

These Jews have a sense of history going back as far as last week's episode of "House."

The US administration's slow erosion of support for Israel, masking itself as "neutral" criticism of its policies, will lead to an indefensible Israel.

When the arabs finish what the Mufti of Jerusalem started with Hitler, will you still be singing this, "their helping the non-Orthodox!" tune?

The only time a government "helps" one group of Jews against another, it is because it "helps" their overall plan. They don't give a diddly squat about non-orthodox Jews. They do care about destroying our traditions, our religion and our lives. The elimination of Judaism, they are convinced, would give them the "peace" they crave so much.

It's all the Jews fault, Yeze! If we just throw ourselves off a bridge, the world will be a much better place.

It's the same tune you are singing, just with translated lyrics.

[Michelle]

B"H

OH WAIT! Hold on! STOP THE PRESSES!!

I just took a look at Yeze's website.

NO WONDER YEZE LOVES WHAT THE STATE DEPARMENT SAID!

Yeze is a Messianic!

Of course!

Well, you would be pleased, wouldn't you, Yeze? If you could just xtianize all the Jews, you and your pal, Obama, could get rid of this nasty Israel problem, couldn't you?

I should have know!

[Yeze]

Come on, the report on Saudi Arabia's way worse, and they're allies of the US:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/127357.htm

You can read a report about every Middle Eastern country on the State Dept website:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/c32415.htm

It's the Jerusalem Post & Failed Messiah which are focusing on the Jews!

The report also said this:

"Unofficial Palestinian television broadcast content sometimes praised suicide bombing and holy war until Palestine is free of Jewish control. Some children's programs aired on unofficial Palestinian television legitimized the killing of Israelis and Jews.

Unofficial Palestinian media frequently published and broadcast anti-Semitic content. Rhetoric by Palestinian terrorist groups included expressions of anti-Semitism, as did sermons by some Muslim religious leaders carried on Palestinian television."

Plus this report isn't markedly different from reports in 2007 or 2008 under Bush.

Even there were a political motivation to the report (which I strongly doubt there is), it doesn't change the fact that religious discrimination in Israel is wrong.

[effie]

But, we're not talking about Saudia Arabia, we're talking about Israel. And from what I can see, the report does not acknowledge that a number of security measures are as a result of terrorism by those claiming persecution. And as someone else brought out, there should be reciprocity.

[Yeze]

Well, it depends: are all the persecuted (e.g. Messianic Jews or Jehovah's Witness) committing terrorism?

As I put in my comment above, the report does mention Palestinian religious incitement to violence against Jews too.

[Michelle]

B"H

Yeah, I bet you think it is wrong. You would love to get your little fangs into one of those clueless Jews from the FSU, right?

Destroying Jewish souls is what you crave, that's why you play dress-up in the garb of Jews and spread your lies.

If you believed in your false messiah like you say you do, you would admit you are xtians. I have no problem with an xtian. They are good people. YOu, however, are nothing more than a fraudster.

I have an idea? Why don't you try to get into Dubai or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Barain?

They are even harder on evangelistic xtians than Israel is. We, at least, let them across the borders.

[Yeze]

"Destroying Jewish souls is what you crave"

No, actually, I just want to live my life without anyone defaming my beliefs or trying to label me.

You would love to get your little fangs into one of those clueless Jews from the FSU, right?

I'm sure your Russian readers would be delighted to know what you really think about them, Michelle.

If you believed in your false messiah like you say you do, you would admit you are xtians. I have no problem with an xtian. They are good people. YOu, however, are nothing more than a fraudster.

Are all Lubavitchers fraudsters too?

"They are even harder on evangelistic xtians than Israel is. We, at least, let them across the borders."

Yes, exactly, a point duly acknowledged by the US State Dept!

[Yeze]

Here's the US State Dept on Iran and anti-Semitism:

While the Government recognizes Judaism as an official religious minority, the Jewish community experienced official discrimination. The Government continued to sanction anti-Semitic propaganda involving official statements, media outlets, publications, and books. The Government's anti-Semitic rhetoric, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens of the country support Zionism and the state of Israel, continued to create a hostile atmosphere for Jews. The rhetorical attacks also further blurred the line between Zionism, Judaism, and Israel and contributed to increased concerns about the future security of the Jewish community.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad continued a virulent anti-Semitic campaign. During the reporting period, the President publicly stated in news conferences that the Zionists infiltrated the world and must be stopped and destroyed, together with Israel.

President Ahmadinejad continued to regularly question the existence and the scope of the Holocaust, which created a more hostile environment for the Jewish community. At a January 2009 speech at Sharif University in Tehran, the President alleged that the "Holocaust discourse" was created to expand "Zionist command over centers of power, wealth, and the world media."

The Government promoted and condoned anti-Semitism in state media; however, with some exceptions, there was little government restriction of, or interference with, Jewish religious practice. The Government reportedly allowed Hebrew instruction but limited the distribution of Hebrew texts, particularly nonreligious texts, making it difficult to teach the language. Moreover, the Government required that in conformity with the schedule of other schools, Jewish schools must remain open on Saturdays, which violates Jewish law.

Jewish citizens were free to travel out of the country but were subject to the general restriction against travel by the country's citizens to Israel. This restriction, however, was not enforced.

[Michelle]

B"H

Yes, Yeze, the Messianic Chabadniks ARE frauds.

Their preaching to clueless Jews (which, by the way, is not a disparaging view, it is just the truth--they have no idea about their faith because of the Soviet system).

They are also propagating something which is not Judaism.

I've already written about it openly on my blog--you know, my JEWISH blog.

[Yerachmiel Lopin frumfollies.wordpress.com]

I think the State Department portrait of both Israeli and Palestinian misconduct is fair. I have a simple rule for evaluating the criticisms. How would we feel if the US government imposed these rules on us? Imagine, if one chassidish group set the rules for all our marriages and divorces and deciding where you can be buried (or even whether you could get the free government burial plot everyone else gets). I have no personal sympathy for Jews who convert out. I concede nothing to them in any of my Jewish organizations. But we are talking about the rights of citizens. Do we want the US to say, anyone converting to Judaism gets inferior treatment.

We benefit from seperation of religion and state. America is a medinah shel chesed for Jews exactly because of it. Maybe seperation of shtiebel and medinah would be a good idea.

[Yeze]

Well done Michelle, indeed you do have a JEWISH blog!

[Yeze]

We benefit from seperation of religion and state. America is a medinah shel chesed for Jews exactly because of it. Maybe seperation of shtiebel and medinah would be a good idea.

Yeh, exactly.

[Yeze]

Incidentally, this comment got censored on VosIs Neias!

[effie]

Well, it depends: are all the persecuted (e.g. Messianic Jews or Jehovah's Witness) committing terrorism? Posted by: Yeze

Your response misrepresents what I posted. Knock it off.

[Yeze]

What did you mean to say? Which parts of the report specifically are you referring to?

[effie]

Again, knock it off.

[Yeze]

Seriously, what parts of the report are you specifically criticising?

[SJ]

>> The State of Israel discriminates against non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and against Jewish-born believers in Christianity

The State Department is right on.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Although some will try to divert attention from the sections that hit close to home by battling with Messianic Jews or complaining about the Arabs, none the less, the report accurately notes the many absurdities caused by the political deals that placed so much power in the hands of the charedim. Consider this simple example: many Jews must LEAVE THE COUNTRY to get married if they don't wish to tithe to the charedim, who largely control many aspects of marriage and divorce. Only after they have been married IN ANOTHER COUNTRY will the validity of that union be recognized by the state. Anyone defending such a situation by trying to shift attention to other aspects of the report is enabling this persecution of Israeli Jews.

[effie]

A good percentage of the postings on this blog are about how the charedim have a dispproportionate and unfair influence in Israel. However, we are allowed to discuss other matters. And claiming that doing so is tantamont to enabling the persecution of Israeli Jews is ridiculous.

[Yeze]

Here's another point whilst on the subject of the US State Dept reports: what about Yad L'Achim's compliance with the Chinese authorities in the persecution of the Falun Gong?

[Lisa]

I would certainly hope that Israel would discriminate against Messies. Every Messy who is halakhically Jewish should be placed in a mental health institution until they get better, and every other Messy should be put on a boat.

Comparing them to misguided Conservative and Reform Jews just gives ammunition to their horrid little propaganda war.

[Michelle]

B"H

Kol H'Kavod, Lisa!

[Yeze]

Every Messy who is halakhically Jewish should be placed in a mental health institution until they get better, and every other Messy should be put on a boat.

Er, shouldn't you be able to convince Messianic Jews using logic and reason rather than forced imprisonnment?

[Lisa]

Logic and reason don't work on them. If it did, they wouldn't be Messies.

[Yeze]

Otherwise, you'll have created a society where people will have to keep their religious and spiritual beliefs suppressed due to fear of social consequences. Then you won't be able to work out who is and isn't genuine in their beliefs, because you will have forced those beliefs upon them. Messianic Jews who don't accept incarceration or deportation would then assimilate back into mainstream Judaism.

As attractive as this may be to Michelle and Lisa, can't you see that's the Spanish Inquisition in reverse?

[Yeze]

So why would you need to deport them, if you think they're mad?

[Lisa]

Yeze, I'm okay with it being like the Spanish Inquisition. They were very successful, unfortunately. What you have to understand is that comparing us with them isn't going to make any difference. Judaism is true. Christianity is false. What was not only wrong, but evil, when done to try and blot out Judaism, is not necessarily wrong when done to save Judaism.

Your comparison is an attempt to use argument by intimidation, which is a logical fallacy.

As far as deporting them, I would only deport the ones who aren't halakhically Jewish.

[Yeze]

Yeze, I'm okay with it being like the Spanish Inquisition. They were very successful, unfortunately.

I thought the Spanish Inquisition was bad?

What you have to understand is that comparing us with them isn't going to make any difference. Judaism is true. Christianity is false. What was not only wrong, but evil, when done to try and blot out Judaism, is not necessarily wrong when done to save Judaism.

Oh silly me, bigotry is only wrong when directed against Judaism rather than directed for Judaism.

As far as deporting them, I would only deport the ones who aren't halakhically Jewish.

That's very considerate of you, I mean, how wrong can a reverse Inquisition be after all, so long as you save me! Thank you.

[Lisa]

Yeze, if you're a Messy who happens to be halakhically Jewish, I feel really bad for you. Not bad enough to be willing to let you harm others, but bad enough to be willing to help you.

Discrimination is not always bigotry. Judaism is based on discrimination between good and bad, between light and darkness, between Jews and non-Jews, between men and women, between anything and anything else. Would you feel better if I used the word "distinction" rather than "discrimination"? They're effectively synonymous.

Discrimination is bad when people are singled out for maltreatment because of their differences. Technically, we discriminate against criminals. We put them in prison. Non-criminals don't have to put up with that sort of thing, after all. At least not unless a bad mistake has been made. Do you consider it bigotry to put a bank robber in prison while letting honest people go free? I don't. Neither do I consider it to be bigotry to prevent those attempting to murder Jewish souls from committing their crimes.

[Ben]

Lisa, are you in Israel, or are you in the US trying to detemine policies of Israel? You are deporing people right and left so freely, it reminds me communists. Are you a former communist?

The state department is stating the obvious - Israeli Haredi run and government supported Rabbinate is discriminating against non-Orthodox. This is the fact, not propaganda.

Halachikly non-Jewish descendants of Jews who die in wars protecting state of Israel can not be buried on Jewish cemetaries (of course this is due to Shulhan arukh, but does it make the practice less morally atrotious and less fair?

You, Lisa, may continue to foam at your mouth, but facts speak for themself. Open you eyes and begin to feel for others. These others are also human beings, just like you, no matter what Hadith or Sharia, or Zohar or Tanya or Halacha are telling you.

[Lisa]

Former communist? Sheesh, you have it backwards.

No, the practice is neither atrocious nor unfair. Jews are Jews. Non-Jews aren't. Fighting for Israel deserves praise, but it doesn't merit acting against the only legitimate excuse for Israel's existence.

And of course they're human beings. So what?

[Mr. Apikorus]

Lisa the Loser said:

"Yeze, I'm okay with it being like the Spanish Inquisition. They were very successful, unfortunately. What you have to understand is that comparing us with them isn't going to make any difference. Judaism is true. Christianity is false. What was not only wrong, but evil, when done to try and blot out Judaism, is not necessarily wrong when done to save Judaism."

Funny, didn't Torquamada (who was Jewish himself) say the same shit? Only in his case, his targets were Jews who were "evil" because they did believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

You are just as bigoted as Torquamada was. Go find yourself a wheel and break yourself upon it.

[Mr. Apikorus]

My bad, Lisa. A little typo. Torquamada's targets were Jews who were "evil" because they didn't believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

In any case, you can go to hell.

[Ben]

Human beings, Lisa, have right to get married. Israel does not allow large part of its population this basic right.

a) Children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers most often are not Christians and not Muslims and not Druze and not Buddists... Furthermore they don't want to become Moslems for example just in order to be able to get married. Israel discriminates against such descendents of Jews.

b) Jews who want to marry non-Jews have no possibility in Israel to do so, unless they agree to convert to other religion. Most often a Jew marrying non-Jew does not want to convert into another religion. Israel discriminates against such Jews.

c) Two atheist Jews who don't want to marry in Orthodox ceremony can not marry at all. Israel discriminates against such Jews

d) Two reform Jews who don't want to be married in Haredi Ortho ceremony can not marry at all. Israel discriminates against such Jews.

And there are many more cases...The list is endless and I'm sure you are very well aware of it. The only reason you are so supportive of Haredi perversion that you are not on the receiving end of it. But believe me, one day you will be and then you will have your A-ha. I hope that sincere people like you will open their eyes before abuse comes to them from the very source that they are defending.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Lisa, are you and Michelle a tag team?

[Ahavah]

Just curious Michelle:

Are you equally interested in mental institutions and deportations for Chabad Lubavitchers who believe Rav Schneerson is Messiah - and are you willing to go to one of their Messianic shuls and say that to their faces? (I recommend you dress conservatively, or you'll be stoned before you ever get a chance to open your mouth.)

[Lisa]

Mr. Apikoris, you're quite emotional. "Lisa the Loser". "Go break yourself". "Go to hell". What cogent arguments.

[Lisa]

Ben, human beings don't have a "right" to get married. You can't just make up a "right". Israel isn't America. In America, it's wrong to have the government distinguish between straight people and gay people, or black people and white people, or Jews and non-Jews. But that's because America was created to be a nation of its people. Israel is supposed to be a Jewish state.

I don't have any problem with Spain and Italy being all Catholic. That's what they are.

"The only reason you are so supportive of Haredi perversion that you are not on the receiving end of it."

Guess what, chuckles. I'm a lesbian. My daughter was turned away from two Orthodox day schools when we tried to register her for kindergarten. And they weren't even haredi schools. So maybe don't jump to conclusions.

[Lisa]

Ahavah, I can't speak for Michelle, but as far as I'm concerned, just because Chabad has gone around the bend a bit when it comes to the Rebbe zatzal shlita doesn't mean they're all ovdei avodah zarah. Yes, some of them have crossed that line, and many of them are crowded up right next to it, but Chabadianity hasn't entirely happened yet. If it does, then I'd treat them just the same.

[Mr. Apikorus]

You get the arguments you deserve from your bigoted, idiotic posts.

P.S. I read your blog. I have a question about the second-most recent entry of yours; the paragraph concerning the "loyalty oath":

You said that non-Jews living in Israel must take a loyalty oath to defend Israel as a Jewish state. Who's a non-Jew? Is someone who's a convert to Judaism, but who was converted by a Reform or Conservative rabbi not Jewish, and required to take this oath? What about the children of this union? Them too? How about an atheist? A convert to Christianity? Someone who's a secular Jew?

[Jakes]

Lisa you are mistaken. Israel was founded as a democracy. One that would represent all kinds of Jews, not just those of the Haredi persuasion. At the same time it was supposed to protect everyone else's rights.

Although I think Shmarya is probably more educated on the matter than I am, there are some Chabadniks out there so fanatical about the Rebbe being the messiah, it is strikingly similar to Messianic Judaism. In fact a lot of Charedi and Chassidishe sects come close to worshipping their Rebbes as idols.

Regardless, I think the State Department is correct in its assertions. Can we focus on that instead of Messianic Jews?

[Mr. Apikorus]

If anyone should have to take a loyalty oath, it would be the Haredim who live in Israel, accept welfare while not working, let others fight Israel's wars for them, and in most cases don't even recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli state.

[Michelle]

B"H

Ahava,

Did I ever say anything about mental institutions and deportations? No. I just said that I didn't like messianics, and when Yeze, who is messianic, asked me if I thought that Chabad were messianists, I replied that, in fact, I do believe those who think the Rebbe is the Messiah ARE the same as messianists, and that I have blogged about that openly.

Mr. Apikores, are you and Yeze a tag team?

[Mr. Apikorus]

We sure are. Check us out on WWE. We're known as as The Jewish Jihad. Combined weight: 700 pounds. Combined height: 13 feet. And we would welcome a cage match with the two of you.

[Lisa]

"bigoted, idiotic posts"

[Michelle]

B"H

Ahava,

I always dress modestly and, actually, used to even go to a Chabad shul. Fortunately, I was smart enough to realize that praying to the Rebbe was a form of avoda zara.

And, yes, I have told them to their faces. Why don't you think I would? I have an obligation to warn them that their behavior is against the Torah.

BTW, I also don't buy Chabad "kosher" meat or purchase their "kosher" wine for fear that it is overseen by a messianist. I can't trust their kashrut any more than I can trust the kashrut of a messianic xtian.

The Rabbinate agrees. They refused to recognize the conversion of a Messianic Chabadnik in December of 2007. It was even reported on this blog http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/12/israeli-convers.html

I don't hate messianic chabadniks, but I do think they need to do some serious Teshuva.

[Lisa]

Jakes, what's with the "not just those of the Haredi persuasion". I'm not Haredi, but is everyone who reads this blog a rabid anti-Haredi bigot?

You'll have no argument from me when it comes to the sometimes wacky Rebbe-ism among many Hasidic groups. But so what?

And Israel can't be both a democratic state and a Jewish one without something having to give. You prefer that to be Judaism and I prefer that to be democracy. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Ben]

I am all for Israel and I believe that Israel must support right of people to marry whether Haredi Run Rabbinate likes it or not.

On the other hand, how would you react if I proclaim that haredim don't have right to marry and they don't have burial rights. Furthermore I'd make it a law to prohibit them to marry? I'm sure most of them would not be happy about it.

I'm all for Jewish marriage and against intermarriage, but this is not for the Rabbinate to decide. Everyone of these parasitic cruel "holy" halachists have a very personal reserved place in hell, in hell in my humble opinion.

[Michelle]

B"H

LOL,Apikores! I would never cage match with you--you would enjoy it too much! ;)

[nobody]

Such ridiculous comments as usual. It's not about the US "helping out Jews who aren't Ultraorthodox" etc. It's about the US state dept using its own countries parameters to then criticize all other countries that don't fit into the same box with the same description as US law dictates to US society. Well, newsflash for the State dept, not all countries are the same, nor must they all be mini/duplicate United States nations, and their laws will reflect their own values which are not necessarily the same.

[Jakes]

Lisa you seem to be avoiding my original statement. It's not just about what I want Israel to be, it's about the principles on which Israel was founded i.e. democracy and not Halakha. Those founding principles are actually protecting LGBT Israelis' rights, something a Halakhic state would certainly not do.

As for my Haredi persuasion comment. Yeah, I have issues with so-called ultra-Orthodoxy. They emerged in the 18th century, decided that they were Judaism. Everyone else from Reform all the way up to plain Frum is a heretic. They act like cults. They've forgotten what Judaism is all about yet they act like they are the only ones holy enough to comprehend it. The biggest problem I have with Orthodoxy is its failure to distance itself from these fringe movements. Come on, some of them are just downright bizarre.

[Jakes]

That being said, they have just as much right to live in Israel as Messianic Jews.

[shneerhere]

"The State of Israel discriminates against non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and against Jewish-born believers in Christianity"

Well, I certainly hope so.

Today's 'non-Orthodox' streams of Judaism are so far removed from anything remotely resembling Torah Judaism, that to put it on equal plane would be to diminish and discriminate against Orthodox Judaism!!

By the way,the report said '.....against non Orthodox stream of Judaism', not non Orthodox Jews. Big difference.

[Asa]

Plenty of Orthodox streams are as equally far removed as those non-Orthodox streams. At this point, few are true Torah Jews. And I mean individual persons alone MAYBE. And I'd like to meet even one of those persons, whoever he or she be.

[Ben]

Funny, someone here is talking about "Torah Judaism". Are the multitude of hasidic clannish feafdoms with nepotism all the way up and down represent "Torah Judaism"? Are Litvishe yeshivos teaching people not to work and scam from the state represent true "Torah Judaism"? What are you talking about? Where in ultra-Orthodox perverted world, which is by the way half a century younger then Reform movement, did you find true "Torah Judaism"?

[Asa]

Ben, you adressing me or Shneerhere? I personally find less and less Torah-trueness in the Orthodox world, though I'm not quite confident enough as a convert to be too assertive yet. I'm ambivalent.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Shneerhere, where's the big difference between "non-0rthodox Jews" and the "Non-Orthodox stream of Judaism." I'm real stupid, according to Shmarya, you'll have to explain it to me really, really slowly.

[Reader]

It is not any of the State Dept's @#$%^& business.
Israel is perfectly capable of figuring things out without the State Dept's interference. It is not another US state but a country which was created to be settled by Jews. And if someone doesn't like it they can guess where they can go.
The US is on its way to either becoming the U.S.S.A or USArabia, inshallah, as a result of the so-called Christians (who didn't even let out one squeak about no Christmas carols policy at all the stores and supermarkets) pandering to the Muslims.

[Reader]

Moreover, it is probably a divide-and-conquer attempt which is working beautifully, on this blog at least.

[Reader]

Messianic "Jews" are in reality Christian converts. They are heavily sponsored by Christians (millions of $$).

[Yeze]

. They are heavily sponsored by Christians (millions of $$).

Really?!!! Where do I get all that Christian money they never told me about???

[Guillermo DaGoy]

By Lisa's reasoning discrimination against non-Jews is a mitzvah! How conducive for warm and friendly human relations.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Guillermo:

Adolf Hitler said pretty much the same thing when referring to discrimination against Jews, although he probably didn't use the word "Mitzvah."

And if Messianic Jews are Christian converts, so what? It's a heck of a lot better being a Christian than a Torah True Charedi parasite.

Lisa, bigots like you give Judaism (and Israel) a bad name.

[Ben]

Charedi ideology is much closer to pre-Reformation Catholicism then it is to Judaism.

[Mr. Apikorus]

Reader: If it weren't for US financial support for Israel, and support by American Jews, Israel would be part of Palestine today, which would be part of the United Arab Republic (back in the 1960's Syria and Egypt merged and took that name; the merger didn't work out).

The US State Department has EVERY right to call out Israel and every other country which doesn't follow democratic practices. If it didn't, it wouldn't be doing its job.

Perhaps Hillary Clinton should keep silent on the atrocities which are ongoing in Iran, the Sudan, Mauritania, and other Islamic ratholes. The politically correct commie-liberal Jew-hating lefties (prime example: Comrade Noam Chomsky) who infest our colleges and universities would be all in favor of that; fortunately the Obama Administration is better than that.

[itchiemayer]

Michelle - Good stuff! I respect that you boycott Lubavitch hashgacha. Rabbi Berger calls for this, and I believe he is absolutely correct.

My son is invited to a Bar Mitzva of one of his classmates who although not Lubavitch, is celebrating at a Lubavitch shul. As we live in the other (smaller) ortho section of town, we are spending shabbos in the other neighborhood, but while my son will be attending the Lubavitch shul this shabbos, I will go to the shul across the street.

[Michelle]

B"H

Thanks, Itchiemayer.

I just wish the Chabad people who are not messianists would start to take a stand. This is the only way they can prevent the good that the Rebbe did (and he did a LOT of good) from being destroyed by the idol worshipers who have infiltrated 770 and have hijacked a great rabbi's memory to make a god in his image.

[itchiemayer]

Michelle - I agree with all of your 11:36 AM post. I think there are very few Lubavitchers who would actually tell you that the Rebbe is not Moshiach. They like to use cute lines to change the tone of discussion like "all chasidim should think their Rebbe is Moshiach". To admit what they really believe would be bad for the business that has become Chabad Lubavitch.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

Today's 'non-Orthodox' streams of Judaism are so far removed from anything remotely resembling Torah Judaism, that to put it on equal plane would be to diminish and discriminate against Orthodox Judaism!!

At least those streams do NOT practice the Molech worship that some of the “Authentic Judaism” practices. If you think having sex with children is OK you have something wrong in your hashkafa (are you a BT?)

One of the leaders of “Authentic Judaism” the weird sicko Pinchaus Scheinberg sais that it is OK to molest children as long as there is no penetration.

http://nymag.com/news/features/17010/index1.html

[L.Krawitz]

Although the Messianic Jews may be perceived as a threat, the Haredi Jews dictatorial ways and fundamentalist outlook affect every other non Haredi Jew's life, in Israel and in the Diaspora, whereas the messianic Jews don't

That is why I have to agree, 100%, once more, with Mr Apikorus' understanding of the situation, as seen in his posting above:

[Guillermo DaGoy]

I wonder how Lisa would feel after being tasered for "walking on the wrong side of the street while Lesbian"???

[Dave Marshall]

Michelle, Lisa, I agree with most of what you've written. I also think Haredim in Israel have to start "pulling their weight" and working.
Excellent anti-Lubavitch post, Michelle.
(I am not kidding).